Gen 1 RBY Ubers Analysis - Thoughts on the metagame

Hello,

Following the RBY Ubers ROA tournament I would like to give my thoughts on the tier: teambuilding, strategy, and pokemon. This does not aim to be a guide or anything, just some personal thoughts about a tier that is honestly quite unexplored. I will give strong opinions about certain matters and if you disagree with them, please post as I will gladly discuss it.

First of all I really enjoy the tier. It has the image of a stall tier in which whoever wins the Mewtwo freeze war wins. However, this is completely untrue, and I believe the freeze strategy is completely unviable.

RBY Ubers has one major threat you have to deal with: Mewtwo, but it also has a plethora of other very strong pokemon you have to handle, them mainly being Mew, Snorlax, and Chansey.

The most efficient way to deal with them is not to fish for a freeze on Mewtwo and then kill everything with your own, but is to spread paralysis among your opponents team and then pressure it with physical attackers, mixed sweepers, and set-uppers. If you decide to play a freeze-based team with Ice Beam Mewtwo and stuff like Light Screen Chansey, you are 1) relying on RNG against other freeze-based teams and 2) losing most of the time to paralysis-based teams. Paralysis-based teams are way more efficient in efficiently pressuring your opponent and giving you a chance to outplay him. But what is a paralysis-based team in RBY Ubers? To answer that, I will analyse how I think the different pokemon fare in the tier.

RBY Ubers : The Big 4



The term “Big 4” in RBY OU might be close to an end, but it definitely is not in Ubers. These are what I believe the be the 4 best pokemon in the tier, by far. I consider them close to mandatory on every team.


Mewtwo

This is obvious, so I want to take the time to talk about which moves Mewtwo should run. Every Mewtwo should have Amnesia and Recover. The choices after that are among Psychic, Ice Beam, and Thunderbolt, and I actually think Ice Beam is a pretty bad move on Mewtwo.

Dropping Thunderbolt means you are walled by Slowbro, which is terrible, and dropping Psychic means you are walled by Chansey, which is not as bad, but an unnecessary burden to put yourself through. It also makes you weaker against Snorlax and Tauros.

Let’s talk about Ice Beam : the only real thing you are hitting with it is Exeggutor. Granted, giving it that extra room to explode can be annoying at times but I don’t think it’s worth the risk of getting walled by Slowbro. Beyond that, the only use of Ice Beam is to fish for a freeze. You don’t need Ice Beam against Zapdos, and Rocks are barely existent so you are only running Ice Beam to fish for a Freeze against Mewtwo/Chansey, which is not a good strategy if you want to go for a paralysis approach.

The only real downside to Psychic + Thunderbolt is that you invite Ice Beam Mewtwo for free if you’re unparalysed but in my opinion it is worth it to take that risk since you have many other ways to pressure opposing Mewtwo.

During the tournament I also tried Psychic + Barrier which is okay if you took paralysis, but overall I mostly played Psychic + Thunderbolt and it worked, I never missed Ice Beam.

Mew

Mew is the best breaker you have access to in RBY Ubers. With Swords Dance, it has the ability of taking on almost anything in the tier. It can run different moves depending on what you want it to do. I am unsure of what the best sets are, and chances are that we will discover new ones with time, so I will talk about the different moves you can play:

Swords Dance: Every Mew should run this alongside a physical move, it’s your only way to make it a true breaker as its power is insufficient otherwise.

Explosion: One of the best moves. +2 Mew simply kills everything with an explosion making it a constant threat. Non-boosted Explosion can even be enough to deal with paralysed Mewtwo sometimes.

Soft-Boiled: One of the picks of choice, giving your Mew a lot of survivability and allowing you to switch into attacking moves more easily. Only downside is that you will lack some coverage.

Body Slam: Good all-around move to spread paralysis to opposing Mew, sometimes Mewtwo. It’s also your best attacking move against Zapdos. The downsides are that you are walled by Gengar and subject to Counter.

Earthquake: Hits harder than Body Slam, is not counterable, hits Gengar, but doesn’t spread paralysis and most importantly can’t touch Zapdos, which is a big deal especially if you don’t have Body Slam/Hyper Beam.

Hyper Beam: I did not play this but saw it played. This is something you probably want to play over Explosion and combine with Earthquake and Soft-Boiled (or Thunder Wave). Solid option but at +2 Earthquake + Hyper Beam can sometimes lack that crucial extra bit of damage Explosion has.

Thunder Wave: Something you want to play over Soft-Boiled in certain teams. Spreading paralysis is absolutely crucial but the mons who are capable of consistently spreading it are few. Body Slam helps, but it can’t paralyse Chansey (which can be actually pretty hard to do sometimes). Thunder Wave is a good option to help your team in this task. I recommend Swords Dance/Earthquake/Explosion/Thunder Wave.

Other moves:

Reflect:
It’s okay, but not great. Yes you’re doing better against Mew and Snorlax, but it’s not helping you break anything which should be Mew’s Role, and it’s not making you better against Mewtwo (the crucial part) and Slowbro. Using Reflect means you can only pick one offensive move as you cannot drop Swords Dance/Soft-Boiled in a set like this, which can limit your offensive options.

Transform: The infamous Lutra set. I think the idea is pretty funny (and I almost got screwed by it during the tournament because I had forgotten about it) but once you know it exists you can see it coming and it becomes pretty bad.

Special Moves: Don’t waste your time, you need to break physically. Psychic and Ice Beam are useless on Mew and if you want to run Thunderbolt you run it on Mewtwo.

Those are the moves I either played, faced, or thought about. If you tried or thought of other moves, I would love to hear about it.

Snorlax

Yes, I am putting Snorlax in the same rank as Mewtwo and Mew. I believe it is the 3rd best pokemon in the tier and is almost as impossible to drop as the two above. The sheer power it has to break and threaten almost anything is huge. It can pressure Mewtwo, Mew, Snorlax, Chansey, but also has the ability to go against Tauros, Zapdos, Slowbro, you name it. Do not drop Snorlax, the value you can get out of it is enormous.

Snorlax
- Body Slam
- Earthquake
- Hyper Beam
- Self-Destruct

It’s what I used in 95% of my games and it’s the strongest, easiest, most straightforward set. Earthquake is crucial for Gengar and Counter-dodging (Mew being in the tier means more reasons to use Counter), Hyper Beam is great if you’re spreading lots of paralysis (range on Mewtwo is 45-53, nuts), and Self-Destruct is absolutely needed as it allows you to get rid of anything you want.

Other moves:

You can try Counter for Mew/Snorlax/Tauros but I find it a bit on the reactive side, when your Snorlax should be pressuring as much as possible. I also would not like to drop Hyper Beam for it.

You could try Amnesia/Blizzard/Body Slam/Self-Destruct but it’s kinda slow and it’s hard to find a common scenario in which you’re happier to have this than fishlax. Amnesia Rest sounds super passive and is a doormat for physical attackers, Reflect + Rest sounds awful as it invites Mewtwo and Slowbro all day and if you’re running Self-Destruct + Reflect just drop Reflect and make your life easier by having Earthquake.

Chansey

I also put this part of the big 4. I believe it to be the 4th best mon in the tier and although it’s not as dominating as the other 3 it compacts so many roles you need at once that it’s usually easier and more efficient to just slap this into your teams.

It Thunder Waves reliably: this is the most important part. The 3 pokemon above don’t spread paralysis or don’t do it reliably and it’s an absolute crucial part of the tier. Mewtwo does not paralyse, Thunder Wave Mew is good but it has its cost, and Body Slam isn’t reliable. Chansey, thanks to its ability to tank and go against a big portion of the tier can switch into a lot of things and throw in Thunder Waves. It is the best user at this by far. Other Thunder Wave users either have a lot of limits in the tier (Alakazam/Starmie) or have a harder time getting in and spreading Twaves safely (Zapdos/Slowbro).

It’s one of the best sleepers: I said “one of the best” but really I wonder if it simply isn’t the best. By that I don’t mean that it’s the best at getting sleep, but that it is the best pokemon that has access to sleep. We all know Sing can be very irritating sometimes, but Chansey is one of the pokemon that has room to play it and click it. Gengar is a very good pokemon with other attractive traits but it has a lot less room and missing Hypnosis is a lot worse than missing Sings. Jynx is a pretty mediocre mon in Ubers in my opinion. Egg is very solid but sometimes takes the slot of Zapdos or Slowbro. You almost always want to play Chansey for its ability to reliably spread paralysis. Finally, one of the biggest strengths of Sing is that that even if your opponent has a Sleep Blocker, Sing is a move Chansey can use to force Mewtwo out if it's unparalysed.

As for the other moves, Ice Beam is your best offensive option. Most of my Chanseys had Sing which means no Reflect and Ice Beam is both the most damaging against Zapdos/Egg and the ability to get a freeze is always strong. Starmie is barely played and Jynx can be pressured easily via other ways so not having a move such as Seismic Toss isn’t a big deal. Thunderbolt is useless.

Chansey
- Ice Beam
- Thunder Wave
- Sing
- Soft-Boiled

If you’re not running Sing (because you have a non-lead sleep already), then you can pick one of these moves:

Counter: I would honestly run this over Reflect as you can use it against to get kills against Snorlax, Body Slam Mew, Tauros, and make some plays at times after an Explosion.

Reflect: It sounds okay but the problem is that if you’re paralysed, Mew can just come in and get at +6 and you’ll eventually lose the 1v1 and then have to face a +6 Mew. Of course, you could fish by throwing Ice Beams while it sets-up but that also means you’re not paralysing it (making it harder to deal with after he wins the 1v1) and fishing for Freeze is letting the game out of your hands. Also, Reflect is useless against Mewtwo. Counter also is but at least it’s a move that can let you directly get rid of some threats.

Light Screen: This is a leftover from the days where everybody built and played around Mewtwo Freeze wars. This move is outdated, and it sucks because it makes you a doormat for physical attackers, don’t play it.


RBY Ubers: The “Second big 4”



Now that you’ve got your first 4 pokemon, it is time to choose the two other members. These are what I believe to be the best picks for your paralysis-based team.

Zapdos


Zapdos is great against literally everything except Mewtwo. It lends Thunder Waves on Chansey and Mewtwo, while being able to go against Snorlax/Tauros/Chansey, and Mew to some extent.

Slowbro

Slower but bulkier, Slowbro is another great mon to spread some consistent paralysis. It can go against Mew, Snorlax, Tauros, Chansey and also has the ability to sweep at times. It has troubles against Egg, Zapdos, and Thunderbolt Mewtwo (but it walls the ones who make the mistake of dropping it), obviously, but this pokemon will always get something done. As for its offensive move, I recommend Surf and not Ice Beam as you want to do as much damage as possible. Psychic is barely playable because of Mewtwo and Mew.

Exeggutor

While looking at my builder I realized I didn’t play Egg all that much, but it’s an extremely solid mon. It has strong sleep, Stun Spore to spread some paralysis (with the ability to get in fairly often) and a strong explosion, all greats traits for Ubers. If you’re running Egg, do not drop Stun Spore, as it is once again crucial to spread paralysis. Your egg will usually sleep something, paralyse something, and then explode against something. It’s a pokemon without any finesse to it but it gets the job done very reliably.

Tauros

Here’s another wallbreaker. Just like in OU, nothing likes to switch into Tauros and you can easily consume it to break into Snorlax/Chansey/Egg, and even Mew (or trade it against Zapdos). It works well as a lead because it forces Gengar out and is a 40/60 against Jynx (if it doesn’t have Counter, that is). Unlike in OU, you will very rarely get the Tauros sweep, so get that in early and break through your opponent’s team. It is not the beast it is in OU but it’s still a great pokemon and an easy one to lead with as Alakazam and Starmie are less present.

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Honorable mention : Gengar


Even though Ubers adds Mewtwo, Gengar is a very solid pick for the tier. I don’t think it is as good as the 4 pokemon above, but it has a lot of interesting traits and you should definitely have a good usage of it. Its strengths are its ghost typing, allowing it to absorb Explosions or to threaten to do so (and to wall non-Earthquake Mew), and an honorable Explosion that can come in handy against the likes of Chansey, Exeggutor, and Zapdos. Finally, it still is the fastest sleeper while Alakazam and Starmie are not as present as they are in OU.

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Other options:

Jolteon


I tried it, and I liked it. It fits very well into the paralysis style team. Zapdos is stronger overall, but Jolteon can lead and check it while having decent wallbreaking abilities as a mixed attacker. If RBY Ubers were played all year long, I would definitely have a good usage of this so that my opponent can’t spam Zapdos at me too freely.

Alakazam/Starmie


These are decent picks as leads to fit into a paralysis-based team, as they can spread Thunder Waves consistently, early, and anti-lead the very present Gengar and Jynx. They can’t do much besides this, though. I played Alakazam on a couple teams and was satisfied with it as it did its job in the early game. I did not play Starmie even though it’s better against Physical attackers because I did not want to make the Zapdos match-up tougher.

Jynx


I’m gonna say this right away: I don’t like Jynx in this tier, and I don’t think this is a great pokemon. It gets sleep off very reliably… and that’s it. Beyond that, I don’t think it does enough. Fishing for Freeze is not something that fits into my paralysis strategy. Building is already very restrictive; you need to cover a lot of threats/sets while having tools to break and Jynx does none of these things. It’s also going to sleep something that isn’t a crucial piece for your opponent (Tauros, Gengar, opposite Jynx, sometimes Psychics), whereas a mid-game sleeper such as Sing Chansey can be way more threatening. I would only consider this if my opponent’s usage of egg lead is too high.

Note for the set: since this does not Rest well in this tier given the amount of set-uppers, run Counter in the last slot. Props to FOMG for screwing me with it, that was cool.

Rocks


I said that if Ubers were played all year long, I would play a bunch of Jolteons to avoid facing too many Zapdoses, to which you could answer “I mean, if you don’t want to be labelled as Zapdos-weak, just have a good rock usage”, but that’s honestly hard in Ubers. As I said I think the formula is Mewtwo/Mew/Snorlax/Chansey and two slots. Rocks look decent as they wall Zapdos and are okay support against non-Earthquake Mew, and Gengar. The problem is that they need a lot of paralysis support to work while they don’t spread it and the first big 4 does not enough. I did not find a way to build with them that satisfied me. As for which one is better than the other, I have no idea: Golem’s explosion is a ton more valuable than it is in OU, but Rhydon gets very important rolls on Mewtwo, Mew, Chansey, and Snorlax, so good luck.

Cloyster


Honestly on paper Cloyster sounds pretty good: it outspeeds the slow portion of the tier, has partial trapping, can switch into physical attackers, and has an Explosion. I still did not play it because like Rocks, I didn’t like the fact that it doesn’t spread paralysis himself and it also makes the Zapdos match-up harder. I would definitely not count this pokemon out, though, paralysed Mewtwo does not like to switch into its Clamp



So this is how I built most of my teams in RBY Ubers :

Lead (Tauros/Jolteon/Alakazam/Gengar) + Mewtwo + Mew + Snorlax + Chansey + (Zapdos/Slowbro/Exeggutor/Tauros)

Some teams:

Big 4 + Big 2

Gengar + Zapdos

Alakazam Lead + Slowbro

Jolteon Lead + Tauros



Nothing looking revolutionary, but those are well-rounded teams that should allow you to deal with everything while creating angles for a victory path.

Anyway those are my thoughts on the tier and how I approached it during the tournament. I hope you enjoyed the read, I hope this gave you a nice introduction to the tier if you’re new, and of course, if any of your views are different, please share them !
 
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Isa

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for those out of the transform loop, can you explain 1. the set 2. how you deal with it

good stuff otherwise
 
This actually got me interested in checking out Ubers more properly. I've played it casually a few times but my team was clearly very flawed, based on this guide. Thanks for writing!
 
So the statement that Snorlax is #1 in GSC and a top 3 Pokémon that should be on every team in RBY is not only applicable to OU, but Ubers as well?

Snorlax is truly the soul of the old generations.
 

Hipmonlee

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Ooh, this is a great guide. You and I play Ubers quite differently I guess!

I think youre underestimating the freeze line. I mean, I think in general paralysing Mewtwo is a better way to deal with it than freezing it, but sometimes you will get caught. That's when I want Light Screen Chansey, because it can just force Mewtwo to freeze that, so it cant freeze my Mewtwo.

So to get that to work I generally use a support Mew. Like, twave, icebeam, softboiled, explosion. It just sits on basically everything. Psychic is also an option over icebeam which is nice against Chanseys. Or you can attempt to freeze Chansey and then twave anything else that comes in.

And once I have that, I can dedicate light screen Chan to dealing with Mewtwo. This is my line, and it has generally worked well for me. The biggest danger is that Mewtwo freezes Chansey too early, so I dont have enough of a PP advantage to push past the Mewtwo, but *shrug* it's Ubers...

Secondly Rhydon is great, much better than Gengar IMO. Rest + Sub is its best set. It has the power to break through Mewtwo physically, and at the very least can basically guarantee to waste 5 psychics/ice beams against a set up Mewtwo. Its sub has an 79.8% to survive a +6 Mew Bodyslam. It's also pretty great against physical Lax. And it 3hkos the ubers so nothing can actually wall it. Not to mention it hard walls at least one mon on every single team you just posted. I think it's really going to make life hard for your paralysis line.

Some other thoughts:
- Dont underestimate the ability of Mewtwo to just muscle past Slowbro with psychic. It 3hkos at + 2.
- Submission Mewtwo can be amazing. Has stacks and stacks of PP and can OHKO Chansey with a crit. Basically, force Mewtwo to freeze your Chansey, bring in your Mewtwo, easily out PP it. And if they try to go to Chansey you smack it with Submission. Though you gotta watch out for counter.
- Stomp Tauros is a PITA. It might be low odds, but those odds are better than most things when it comes to beating a +2 Mewtwo.

[Edit] - Credit to Nails for the stomp Tauros idea. He used it against me in the finals of roa olympics last year.
 
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Lutra

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Firstly, it's great seeing RBY Ubers discussion/analysis. I want to focus on some neutral/negative stuff though from the OP.

I disagree that Jynx isn't good. This isn't Stadium; 1-7 turn sleep is good. If you paralyze the wrong Pokémon, playing around that to not lose a chance at sleep can be hard, particularly for inexperienced players.

"Impossible to drop" is kind of misleading. Possibly it outclasses everything in your ideal metatope (narrow player-base metagame) with solid players, but I settled on this team without Lax like 3-5 years ago: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/ubers-fresh-out-of-the-factory.3610447/ and won like 18 consecutive battles in forum tournaments. I was a leg up on the top players at the time starting off for sure, but most of the playerbase is still inexperienced at this tier.

Also I don't think what I now call PaRaSiTe Mew (Thunder Wave, Reflect, Softboiled, Transform) can be dismissed that easily. It's devastating if you do manage to pull it off a transform against Swords Dance, Earthquake, Hyper Beam, Softboiled Mew in particular. This is a like a fun lesson in a tutorial.

Even if you do know about it and decide to switch, you can also mix sets within a series that actually carry Swords Dance. How would you identify the set? Do you have a switch-out for solution if that Mew is not what you thought it was? For instance, Reflect could be used first, to not give away too much, and you can drop 2 (or 3 if you plant the reflect into their mind) moves to add 1 (or 2 moves) with Swords Dance. It may not be worth it, but just saying it's not totally hopeless.
 
Has transform been fixed on PS yet?
I don't think so, but once I get back on my RBY (OU/Tradebacks/Stadium) fixing spree, I definitely want to tackle that, as well as "correct" RBY stat boosting.


If I understand this correctly, there's 2 very important things about Mewtwo and Amnesia that would impact Mewtwo, particularly stalling.

1: Due to +2 stat boosting moves only "negating" 1 stage if it exceeds the 999 cap, Mewtwo can keep boosting past +3 (which hits the 999 cap), but only will "net" one stage boost at a time until it hits +5 (where it nets zero stage boosts), so Amnesia boosting Mewtwo should look like: +0 > +2 > +3 (999) > +4 > +5. This means it takes longer for Mewtwo to "build up" a buffer of boosts to protect from Spc drops.

2: Due to stat drops not clamping stats to 999, a sufficiently high stat with enough stat boosts can exceed 999 after a drop. Because stats overflow at 1024 and above, this can cause the stat to actually suffer a MASSIVE drop due to a pseudo Modulo 1024 happening to the stat. Which affects Mewtwo.

If Mewtwo suffers a Spc drop at +5 (max Mewtwo can reach), it will hit +4, which gives it a Special stat of 1218, which overflows and becomes 194 Special instead. This is VERY bad for Mewtwo:
+6 Mewtwo Psychic vs. 194 Spc Mewtwo: 251-295 (60.4 - 71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+6 Mewtwo Ice Beam/Thunderbolt vs. 194 Spc Mewtwo: 353-415 (85 - 100%) -- 2.6% chance to OHKO
+6 Mewtwo Blizzard vs. 194 Spc Mewtwo: 445-524 (107.2 - 126.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+6 Slowbro Surf vs. 194 Spc Mewtwo: 529-622 (127.4 - 149.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Jynx Blizzard vs. 194 Spc Mewtwo: 194-229 (46.7 - 55.1%) -- 71% chance to 2HKO
Mewtwo can "simply" avoid this scenario by not boosting to +5, but PP stalling is now a lot more tricky because Amnesia is a 32 PP move that only needs to be used twice until Mewtwo switches out, making it normally the best move for stalling turns. Now, once you hit +5, the opposing Mewtwo (or anything else with Psychic) can fish for the Spc drop to make your Mewtwo suddenly 1 turn away from being very dead. There IS a way to avoid this from the teambuilder: 104 EV / 1 DV Mewtwo. This gives Mewtwo a Special stat of 341, which at +4 gives Mewtwo a Special stat of 1023. It should also reach 999 Special in two boosts just like 252 / 15 DV Mewtwo: +0 > +2 > +4 (999) > +5. This lets Mewtwo boost completely safely without fearing Spc drops from Psychic (it actually gains 24 Spc from a drop to +4!), however it means Mewtwo is notably less threatening before boosting, has weaker critical hits and is much more threatened by the opponent's critical hits:
Mewtwo critical hit Blizzard vs. 104 EV / 1 DV Mewtwo: 199 - 235 (48 - 56.6%) -- 89.3% chance to 2HKO
Zapdos critical hit Thunderbolt vs. 104 EV / 1 DV Mewtwo: 205 - 241 (49.4 - 58.1%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO
Jynx critical hit Blizzard vs. 104 EV / 1 DV Mewtwo: 214 - 252 (51.6 - 60.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Once this is implemented correctly, a decision has to be made in the teambuilder as to whether you want the unsafe but maximum power 252/15 Spc Mewtwo or the safe stalling 104/1 Spc Mewtwo. Of course, I need to double check and confirm on cartridge before I go about implementing this, but I'm fairly sure this is correct and something RBY Ubers players (there are dozens of us!) will need to take into account before long.


Edit: Got some help from Caetano93 to investigate whether it's possible to max out all other stats while keeping Mewtwo at or below 341 Special... and he's determined that it isn't possible. Best he could determine is a 411 / 312 / 270 / 341 / 351 stat spread (basically 236 HP / 228 Atk / 220 Def / 104 Spc / 224 Spe EVs on Showdown) from maxing all non-Special stats with Vitamins and then fighting 290 Kangaskhans (in RBY you can only fight Kangaskhan in trainer battles, only one I can recall is Giovanni... not a fun way to EV train)

I'll try to see later if there's any trickery regarding rounding errors when dividing EV experience. From some testing I've done, what level the opponent is affects how much EV experience you get and if regular EXP is shared, EV experience is split between them, so maybe there's a trick to pull to get better EVs for the "Safe" Mewtwo.

Edit2: Caetano93 has determined that EV Training on Jigglypuff and Onix and/or Krabby can get Mewtwo max HP/Def, retain enough speed to be faster than Alakazam, and not exceed 341 Special. He didn't tell me what the Attack stat reached though, so Self-destruct/Submission sets might not work as well with "Safe" Mewtwo. With just vitamins alone, Mewtwo always hits 335 speed, so it always will exceed Tauros and very easily surpasses Persian/Starmie, so those atleast are easily reached benchmarks for "Safe" Mewtwo.
 
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Ooh, this is a great guide. You and I play Ubers quite differently I guess!

I think youre underestimating the freeze line. I mean, I think in general paralysing Mewtwo is a better way to deal with it than freezing it, but sometimes you will get caught. That's when I want Light Screen Chansey, because it can just force Mewtwo to freeze that, so it cant freeze my Mewtwo.

So to get that to work I generally use a support Mew. Like, twave, icebeam, softboiled, explosion. It just sits on basically everything. Psychic is also an option over icebeam which is nice against Chanseys. Or you can attempt to freeze Chansey and then twave anything else that comes in.

And once I have that, I can dedicate light screen Chan to dealing with Mewtwo. This is my line, and it has generally worked well for me. The biggest danger is that Mewtwo freezes Chansey too early, so I dont have enough of a PP advantage to push past the Mewtwo, but *shrug* it's Ubers...

Secondly Rhydon is great, much better than Gengar IMO. Rest + Sub is its best set. It has the power to break through Mewtwo physically, and at the very least can basically guarantee to waste 5 psychics/ice beams against a set up Mewtwo. Its sub has an 79.8% to survive a +6 Mew Bodyslam. It's also pretty great against physical Lax. And it 3hkos the ubers so nothing can actually wall it. Not to mention it hard walls at least one mon on every single team you just posted. I think it's really going to make life hard for your paralysis line.

Some other thoughts:
- Dont underestimate the ability of Mewtwo to just muscle past Slowbro with psychic. It 3hkos at + 2.
- Submission Mewtwo can be amazing. Has stacks and stacks of PP and can OHKO Chansey with a crit. Basically, force Mewtwo to freeze your Chansey, bring in your Mewtwo, easily out PP it. And if they try to go to Chansey you smack it with Submission. Though you gotta watch out for counter.
- Stomp Tauros is a PITA. It might be low odds, but those odds are better than most things when it comes to beating a +2 Mewtwo.
That's the problem I have with the freeze line, I don't see how you can force opposite Mewtwo to freeze your Chansey. If my opponent sends in Chansey against my Mewtwo and sets-up Light Screen, I'm simply switching out to something else and definitely not playing a Freeze War (that's if I have Ice Beam, which I don't, but let's pretend), and then your Chansey is left with a limited move. Your Mew set is interesting, but it sounds kinda slow and at the mercy of Swords Dance Mew and Slowbro. You have to explode to deal with them and without Swords Dance it can be tricky. Your strategy sounds okay, but it's mostly working against other Freeze-based teams.

And yeah I might have overlooked Rhydon... I wouldn't consider it great against Mewtwo (who does wall if unparalysed and 2HKOs with Psychic) and unparalysed Earthquake Mew (and without Body Slam you can have a hard time paralysing them) but it does have some strenghts against most of the tier. As for your last thoughts I really don't think Psychic on Mewtwo is enough for Slowbro as it can get in on an Amnesia and Thunder Wave (which you really don't want) and then wall with ease. Submission Mewtwo seems to fit your Freeze approach much more than it fits my paralysis approach, and Stomp Tauros sounds actually good lol

Firstly, it's great seeing RBY Ubers discussion/analysis. I want to focus on some neutral/negative stuff though from the OP.

I disagree that Jynx isn't good. This isn't Stadium; 1-7 turn sleep is good. If you paralyze the wrong Pokémon, playing around that to not lose a chance at sleep can be hard, particularly for inexperienced players.

"Impossible to drop" is kind of misleading. Possibly it outclasses everything in your ideal metatope (narrow player-base metagame) with solid players, but I settled on this team without Lax like 3-5 years ago: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/ubers-fresh-out-of-the-factory.3610447/ and won like 18 consecutive battles in forum tournaments. I was a leg up on the top players at the time starting off for sure, but most of the playerbase is still inexperienced at this tier.

Also I don't think what I now call PaRaSiTe Mew (Thunder Wave, Reflect, Softboiled, Transform) can be dismissed that easily. It's devastating if you do manage to pull it off a transform against Swords Dance, Earthquake, Hyper Beam, Softboiled Mew in particular. This is a like a fun lesson in a tutorial.

Even if you do know about it and decide to switch, you can also mix sets within a series that actually carry Swords Dance. How would you identify the set? Do you have a switch-out for solution if that Mew is not what you thought it was? For instance, Reflect could be used first, to not give away too much, and you can drop 2 (or 3 if you plant the reflect into their mind) moves to add 1 (or 2 moves) with Swords Dance. It may not be worth it, but just saying it's not totally hopeless.
I was talking more about the Ubers metagame I observed and played throughout the tournament more than the theoretical "optimal" metagame. Of course it always evolves, RBY OU is a good example of that...

Your team is a pure Freeze-based team (I'm surprised you're not running Ice Beam on Chansey and even Slowbro), so I'm not surprised you're fine with dropping Snorlax and using Jynx, but I really would not recommend it if you go with my approach (which I think matches-up really well against teams like yours). My criticism on Jynx were not about sleep itself - of course sleep is huge - but in what it is capable to do beyond landing it:
- Gengar has a great ghost type and can explode
- Exeggutor can land statuts and explode
- Chansey spreads paralysis and has useful tools against all the tier
- Jynx... fishes for a freeze (although I suppose the Counter set can be trickier to play against at times)

It is the most reliable sleeper but I largely prefer sacrificing sleep-reliance for other mid-game capabilities.

As for the Mew Transform mind games I guess you can screw some opponents from time to time but I think playing this over a straight-forward Swords Dance set is complicated your life for inconsistent gain. The set is spotted once you have revealed both Reflect and Thunder Wave (and if you're not Transform and you've made your opponent switch-out it's not the end of the world for them because it is not an offensively threatening set) and Transform will always have a big random component to it. I agree the move is interesting on Mew and that it could be explored but I don't think you are making a mistake by simply playing an pure offensive set (in the type of teams I presented, that is).

Thanks to everyone who contributed to the thread and who got some discussion going on in Discord, this tier is quite unappreciated and getting some thoughts and opinion going is how we make it go forward.
 

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I don't think you get the point of my Chansey. I can choose when to paralyze and play it safer. I don't want to wait to be destroyed by Psychic Mewtwo. I'm only interested in the freeze in the Mewtwo ditto. Seismic Toss at least helps with putting Mewtwo under pressure, which Ice Beam isn't going to do when that Mewtwo is paralyzed. I use Psychic on Mewtwo mainly for motivation (easy KOs with people blundering slowbro/whatever else), but what I lose to most of the time in Ubers is Boltbeam Mewtwo, on my more recent team as well. So replacing with Boltbeam Mewtwo to not get disadvantaged seems good. I also acknowledge that team doesn't particularly like switching into Snorlax (perhaps that was partly a reason why I wanted Psychic on Mewtwo).

The metagame does evolve, especially with increased knowledge, but I don't think put lax/not put lax is critical when I feel Mewtwo has a big influence on most battles.
 
Update from Caetano93, here's some legally obtainable spreads for Mewtwo

415 / 318 / 278 / 406 / 358 - Normal Mewtwo
411 / 312 / 270 / 341 / 351 - Safe Mewtwo (290 Kangaskhans)
415 / 314 / 269 / 341 / 345 - Safe Mewtwo (282 Jigglypuffs, 182 Krabbys)
415 / 308 / 273 / 341 / 346 - Safe Mewtwo (285 Jigglypuffs, 149 Onixes)

Thanks Caetano!

I've got an idea on how to make legal EVs practical on Showdown, which will make it possible for players to come up with their own combinations if they want to really deep dive and evaluate their own "Safe Mewtwo" set, as well as solve the 0 Atk EV / Max everything else impossibility that some players min-max to minimize self-inflicted Confusion damage.
 
I haven't played RBY Ubers in aaaaages, is freeze really a thing people think is decent? I always thought it was pretty bad. I think PP stall is honestly better if you want to be boring- I think Barrier M2 is pretty cool

Also I think Transform Mew is bad because it totally depends on your opponent not knowing about and leaving something good in for Transform. If your opponent does know about that set, it becomes almost totally incapable of playing for an advantage, since if it can't get a good Transform all it has is a TWave with no attacking power behind it
 
I've confirmed on cartridge that a max Special Mewtwo with max Amnesia boosts suffering a Special drop suffers a super massive drop in Special, as expected. I've also confirmed a 341 Special "SafeTwo" with max Amnesia boosts does not suffer this problem.

Tests:
Mewtwo uses Amnesia twice > hit by Special fall > hit by Thunderbolt: Mewtwo takes little damage.
Mewtwo uses Amnesia more than twice > hit by Special fall > hit by Thunderbolt: Mewtwo is nearly killed from full HP.
"Safetwo" uses Amnesia more than twice > hit by Special fall > hit by Thunderbolt: "SafeTwo" takes little damage.

On cartridge, using Amnesia twice will succeed, and then using Amnesia once more will "fail" but still raise its Special stat stage to the dangerous overflow point, and it cannot move past this unsafe stat stage no matter how much Amnesia is used. This gives you a clear indication of when Mewtwo is vulnerable to a Spc drop: as soon as an opposing Mewtwo's Amnesia fails, you can start using Psychic to force a Spc overflow and smash through your opponent's Mewtwo unless it is a 341 Spc "SafeTwo".


Now that I have this confirmed, I'll look into getting fixing RBY's stat boosting/falling code to be cartridge accurate. This will drastically chance how Mewtwo vs. Mewtwo fights go, especially those that can't play for a freeze.
 
I don't really see a need for a "safetwo" unless there's something I'm missing- M2's special hits 999 at +3 iirc, so there's no need to use Amnesia more than twice. I would've thought that there might be some risk to boosting to +4, but if you've tested it and it's fine, I'll roll with that
 
I don't really see a need for a "safetwo" unless there's something I'm missing- M2's special hits 999 at +3 iirc, so there's no need to use Amnesia more than twice. I would've thought that there might be some risk to boosting to +4, but if you've tested it and it's fine, I'll roll with that
I believe the concern comes from being able to pp stall an opposing mewtwo, who can't use Amnesia anymore, while you can spam it freely, or something similar.
 
I believe the concern comes from being able to pp stall an opposing mewtwo, who can't use Amnesia anymore, while you can spam it freely, or something similar.
Exactly. It only comes up in a PP stall scenario, but the player with a "Safetwo" has the advantage when that does come up. And from my (possibly outdated) memory of Ubers, PP stalling between Mewtwos was fairly common. So if you want to win stall wars against opposing Mewtwo, a "Safetwo" build should be strongly considered.
 

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