• Check out the relaunch of our general collection, with classic designs and new ones by our very own Pissog!

Reuniclus

Thorhammer said:
The ability to expect a counter for every threat is a luxury of past generations. What is relevant is not counters, but checks.
Click to expand...

So the definition of a broken Pokemon has changed from not having counters to not having checks? Huh.

Well, anyway. I can't speak to the effectiveness of Spiritomb against Reinclus, but I do know a CB Scizor OHKO'd my 252/0 Reinclus with U-Turn. Predict a Psycho Shock/Energy Ball/what have you, switch in, and kill Reinclus/hurt the switch and counter it. So that's a check and an-almost counter if you don't go into a Focus Blast/HP Fire.
 
Bynine said:
So the definition of a broken Pokemon has changed from not having counters to not having checks?
Click to expand...

Well while most pokemon do have counters, if those counters arent viable at anything besides countering something specifically, checks but be looked at primarily.
 
Bynine said:
So the definition of a broken Pokemon has changed from not having counters to not having checks? Huh.
Click to expand...

Lots of pokemon have no counters and are not broken.
Dugtrio pretty much has "no counters" since anything without Levitate/Flying type/Balloon is trapped and either kills or gets killed.
Does Salamence have TRUE counters? Nothing can safely switch in,so I'd say Mence only has checks,yet he's definitely not broken this gen.
 
I love how this entire discussion has degenerated into pointless arguing, when no one - I'm speaking to you, masterful - has still answered the main question of the thread.

Why Reuniclus should be a suspect only because it single-handedly halts the common variants of full stall? Why full stall even deserves to exist to the point we need to ban everything which makes it unviable?

Every Pokémon we banned so far was a serious problem for all the playstyles, not only one of them. Darkrai was not banned because it was a problem only for offense, or stall, or balance, or whatever. He was banned because all playstyles needed to rely on extreme measures to control him and, even then, he could sweep without much effort (the fact that Iconic's team, one of the most successful in the "BW Darkrai era", relied on Lum Berry Scizor to deal with him is testament enough of this). Masterful's example of an hypotetic OU Rayquaza forcing everyone (note: not only stall, or offense. Everyone) to carry, say, CB Mamoswine to check it is another good case.

In Reuniclus' case, however, the situation is completely different. I never saw any good offensive team (aside from poorly made HO teams which roll over to any Trick Room Pokémon or Crocune) having problems with Reuniclus, unless Reuniclus' user managed to eliminate the several checks/counters on the opponent's team (Tricksters, powerful attackers, Scizor etc). Even Semi-stall has little problem dealing with him. The only style which actually suffers is Full Stall. Ok, good, and so? Did we ban Tyranitar in 4th gen because it made, say, Sun or Hail teams unusable? No. Why full stall is somehow special? It isn't, and if it can't keep up with the metagame, it should simply disappear (or maybe show up in other tiers).

If anyone can make a good case for why full stall deserves a better treatment compared to Hail stall or all the other neglected playstyle, they're welcome. Until then, please don't use the "Reuniclus destroys full stall" argument as a reason alone to ban him. Thank you.
 
I wasn't being sarcastic when I said that, I meant that I didn't know that between Gen 4 and 5 the definition of broken changed.

But if that's true, then Reuniclus isn't broken because it has plenty of checks.
 
Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results.

If you use a full stall team and refuse to deviate from what you enjoy using in order to counter a popular Pokemon that overwhelms your playstyle and ONLY your playstyle, then you either need to stop being stubborn or just accept the fact that your playstyle isn't that good anymore because it can't handle a top threat.

Adapt or continue to lose. That's how lots of things in this world work, and it happens to apply to this game as well.
 
I've been testing Rankurusu, and may I just say that Sableye and Spiritomb stop Rank cold if it's running Specs or Calm Mind? Lati @s, Gardevoir (a friend helped me test it), and Shuckle (in a Sandstorm) also do very well if it isn't running Shadow Ball. That's just a few on the defensive side. T-Tar and Warubiaru can easily, although they fear focus blast, OHKO him with Crunch. Three out of four of the new Bugs can handle him (while Urugamosu and Denchura have to get him before several calm minds, and Urugamosu is bulky enough on the special side to win the Calm Mind war with a Super Effectiv STAB Bug Buzz). Imo, Rankurusu is just a Top-Tier OU 'mon, but certainly not Uber. People can say I'm freaking crazy, but I definetley know what I'm talking about.
 
You read all that stuff about Tyranitar having a ~30% chance to OHKO with a CB max Att Crunch, right? Well, Waruvial's base attack is 17 points lower, so...here, let the math do all the talking: 82.1% - 96.7%.

Now what was that stuff about easily OHKOing again?
 
SJCrew said:
You read all that stuff about Tyranitar having a ~30% chance to OHKO with a CB max Att Crunch, right? Well, Waruvial's base attack is 17 points lower, so...here, let the math do all the talking: 82.1% - 96.7%.

Now what was that stuff about easily OHKOing again?
Click to expand...

With some boosts from Moxie it can. I think it would need two without a band but i havent run calcs. your point still stands though.
 
How are you switching into Rankurusu AND having Moxie boosts instantly?

If you have Moxie boosts, that means you have Waruvial out. Why the fuck would anyone switch Rankurusu into it?
 
So they could FB if they had no other options. I was only saying that he could KO, i also said that his point still stood as it would obviously not be likely to happen.
 
Why does it matter whether it OHKOs? A Rankurusu at 15% is still a dead Rankurusu thanks to its terrible Speed, so Waruvial provides an effective stop to Rankurusu's sweep.
 
zarator said:
I love how this entire discussion has degenerated into pointless arguing, when no one - I'm speaking to you, masterful - has still answered the main question of the thread.

Why Reuniclus should be a suspect only because it single-handedly halts the common variants of full stall? Why full stall even deserves to exist to the point we need to ban everything which makes it unviable?

Every Pokémon we banned so far was a serious problem for all the playstyles, not only one of them. Darkrai was not banned because it was a problem only for offense, or stall, or balance, or whatever. He was banned because all playstyles needed to rely on extreme measures to control him and, even then, he could sweep without much effort (the fact that Iconic's team, one of the most successful in the "BW Darkrai era", relied on Lum Berry Scizor to deal with him is testament enough of this). Masterful's example of an hypotetic OU Rayquaza forcing everyone (note: not only stall, or offense. Everyone) to carry, say, CB Mamoswine to check it is another good case.

In Reuniclus' case, however, the situation is completely different. I never saw any good offensive team (aside from poorly made HO teams which roll over to any Trick Room Pokémon or Crocune) having problems with Reuniclus, unless Reuniclus' user managed to eliminate the several checks/counters on the opponent's team (Tricksters, powerful attackers, Scizor etc). Even Semi-stall has little problem dealing with him. The only style which actually suffers is Full Stall. Ok, good, and so? Did we ban Tyranitar in 4th gen because it made, say, Sun or Hail teams unusable? No. Why full stall is somehow special? It isn't, and if it can't keep up with the metagame, it should simply disappear (or maybe show up in other tiers).

If anyone can make a good case for why full stall deserves a better treatment compared to Hail stall or all the other neglected playstyle, they're welcome. Until then, please don't use the "Reuniclus destroys full stall" argument as a reason alone to ban him. Thank you.
Click to expand...
Hail Stall is encompassed in stall. Stall is a MASSIVE playstyle that has been used by many great players for generations, and lauded for its consistency in battling, and usefulness when laddering. To think that that entire style will essentially cease to exist (or be forced to run Tomb on every team) because you people didn't want to ban "because we're just getting ban-happy" is unthinkable, and incredibly foolish
 
Masterful, you keep reiterating the same stale point over and over and over again when multiple people have already responded with completely valid arguments. If you have nothing new to say, then maybe you should just quit it.
 
PokéMontage said:
Masterful, you keep reiterating the same stale point over and over and over again when multiple people have already responded with completely valid arguments. If you have nothing new to say, then maybe you should just quit it.
Click to expand...
People have responded with completely valid wrong arguments that are weak and unsupported and undermine the entire philosophy of suspect testing. If you really want to hear the same point repeated, just look at all the posts made by the anti-ban side of the argument. Interesting how bias can blind someone so much
Arc Tech said:
And spiritomb is not the only stallish counter. Unaware Quagsire, CM Latias/Jirachi, Sableye (DW).
Click to expand...
CM Latias gets beat by Psycho Shock. Jirachi gets overpowered by Focus Blast or Shadow Ball (or HP Fire, if you're that pro). Quagsire can switch in and do absolutely nothing, all the while attempting to take STAB psychics from 125 base SpA with its massive 65 base SpD. Also, Sableye is arguably worse than Spiritomb and is EXTREMELY niche

Was that the kind of "valid" argument people were making?
 
Let's look at this carefully now, as I'm getting a bit sick of seeing nothing but bickering over this damn jelly. In all honestly, to me, it's just a better offensive Clefable.

Let's look at the Trick Room version, the one that can actually pull off a kill on most team archetypes like Hyper Offense and Full Stall. It's mainly Trick Room, then a choice of either Recover and two attacking moves, namely Psychic and Psycho Shock along with Focus Blast, or forsaking the fourth option of Recover for a filler move like Shadow Ball or an HP. If Reuniclus runs the former option, it's hard countered by MH Sableye and Spiritomb. We know that much for certain, let's not stop and talk about it, even though soon as the Sableye is released we are going to see usage jump massively.

If it runs the latter set, there's a problem. It's bulk, due to no recovery outside Leftovers, is drastically shut down since it's going to likely be running lots of SpA EVs. We forget also that as it sets up Trick Room, it's probably going to take a pretty good hit unless you switch. I'll assume Reun is at about 70-80 percent. That's an easy revenge range from a BandTar once Trick Room is over, or after it acheives a kill. Also, there's still the chance of Focus Blast missing. However, what's also important is what Reun can and cannot kill in a single blow with Focus Blast or Psychic.

For example, Nattorei outslows some variants of Reun depending on spread and IVs. Power Whip is going to deal maybe 40% or more, and unless Reun is going to run HP Fire, it won't be a single OHKO. I view it as a check. If TR isn't up, Shandera could easily pick up a revenge kill using Specs Shadow Ball if the Reun invests in the wrong Defense. We all know about BandTar getting about 88 and more.

It's as it was said earlier. There are obvious checks and counters to these sorts of sets. Hell, if CMRecover is giving you so much fucking trouble, run a TrickScarfer. Cripple the little bastard that way. If TR's running all over you, you either have poor choices of walls (Blissey or Chansey can easily keep a Psycho-Shockless Reun at bay for the turns needed so long as Focus Blast doesn't get the drop. I see LITTLE excuse for this argument.) or your stall team was never built for these sort of threats. Full Stall is already going to be hard to run in this generation. One more Pokemon in the pile is not going to hurt.

Just put it to a vote later. Watch how fast Reuniclus gets put back in OU where it belongs from all the people who love how it can upend the metagame. Seriously, I find Starmie more trouble than this thing.
 
Besides, no "good stall" team should ever lose to Rankurusu. Blissey / Chansey (which is on like all stall teams) easily defeats TR Rankurusu, while stuff like Perish Song Celebi, Specially Defensive Jirachi, any Jirachi with Trick, Tyranitar (as long as you don't come in on a FB), CM Roar Latias, any Latias with Trick, Spiritomb, Iconicsor, Deoxys-D, etc. can all defeat CM Rankurusu. And yes, I might not know what variant the Rankurusu is running, but chances are that it'll reveal what set it is turn one.
 
People have responded with completely valid wrong arguments that are weak and unsupported and undermine the entire philosophy of suspect testing. If you really want to hear the same point repeated, just look at all the posts made by the anti-ban side of the argument. Interesting how bias can blind someone so much
Click to expand...

The only reason that their arguments have to be repeated is because you keep on giving the same response.

Your argument basically boils down to "Anything that threatens full stall's viability should be banned. Reuniclus can cause major troubles for full stall, so it should be banned. Also, Spiritomb sucks."
 
masterful said:
CM Latias gets beat by Psycho Shock. Jirachi gets overpowered by Focus Blast or Shadow Ball (or HP Fire, if you're that pro). Quagsire can switch in and do absolutely nothing, all the while attempting to take STAB psychics from 125 base SpA with its massive 65 base SpD. Also, Sableye is arguably worse than Spiritomb and is EXTREMELY niche

Was that the kind of "valid" argument people were making?
Click to expand...

Once again, your overlooking the viablity of Reuniclus's counters

Both CM Latias and Jirachi both can use psycho shock to beat Reuniclus. Admittedly, Latias might have a hard time, but Jirachi 4x resists psychic and can boost it's special defense.

Quaggy laughs at Reuniclus's unboosted psychics/psycho shocks. Remember that no CM Reuniclus invests in SpAtk, which gives it ~298 SpAtk, which is around a fully invested base 85 stat. Even if Quagsire runs max HP/max Def, it can still wall reuniclus, which most of them do I think. And it has encore.

Don't diss sableye. Priority Will-o-wisp and recover means it can beat almost any physical pokemon. Many teams would love such a great check.
 
masterful said:
CM Latias gets beat by Psycho Shock. Jirachi gets overpowered by Focus Blast or Shadow Ball (or HP Fire, if you're that pro). Quagsire can switch in and do absolutely nothing, all the while attempting to take STAB psychics from 125 base SpA with its massive 65 base SpD. Also, Sableye is arguably worse than Spiritomb and is EXTREMELY niche

Was that the kind of "valid" argument people were making?
Click to expand...

(this quote wasn't in his original post)

Latias can Roar Rankurusu out before it sets up too many Calm Minds. Jirachi 4x resists Psychic and can set up along side it. Quagsire has Unaware + Encore, which can lock Rankurusu into one move before (Calm Mind/Trick Room/Whatever) and force it out while another Pokemon switches in with the perfect opportunity to set up on the resisted/immune to move.

You're going to have to explain why Spiritomb and Sableye are bad. Let's see, they both are immune to two of Rankurusu's most common moves: Focus Blast and Psychic (or Psycho Shock). They can both Taunt to prevent set up, and Spiritomb can hit him hard with STAB Shadow Ball/Sucker Punch, and heal off damage with Pain Split (although Rankurusu takes no damage, Spiritomb does recover health).

Not to mention that Sableye owns. Priority Taunt/Will-O-Wisp/Recover? Absolutely fantastic.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top