I do agree strongly with the majority of this but I do strongly disagree with the moltress drop, due to the rise of pokemon such as shaymin the defense set has become rather potent recently and it's wallbreaking skills are as amazing as ever with very few pokemon wanting to switch in or attempt to set up on the flame turkey, while it's choice scarf set is good I do honestly think that the wallbreaker set is worthy of the current moltres rank for how much of an iron grip it holds against bulky teams and teams in general.
Resource RU Viability Rankings - V2
- Thread starter phantom
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I do agree strongly with the majority of this but I do strongly disagree with the moltress drop, due to the rise of pokemon such as shaymin the defense set has become rather potent recently and it's wallbreaking skills are as amazing as ever with very few pokemon wanting to switch in or attempt to set up on the flame turkey, while it's choice scarf set is good I do honestly think that the wallbreaker set is worthy of the current moltres rank for how much of an iron grip it holds against bulky teams and teams in general.
Regarding the Moltres talk, if anything I would like to see it risen to A+ moreso than dropping. Moltres' STABs alone are insanely difficult to switch into with only the specially bulkiest of defensive mons and uncommon meta picks such as Rotom-H and Mega Ampharos (sporting a solid 0 appearances in RUPL as of the most recent stats) able to do so with any degree of reliability. Speaking of the defensive mons, two of the ones that give offensive Moltres considerable trouble in Umbreon and Cresselia have also fallen out of favor of late (1 appearance combined between the two in RUPL) and the increased popularity of Tyrantrum as a check to the other offensively threatening fire type in the tier, Salazzle (and consequently a decline of Rhyperiors in the same role), does not hurt Moltres either as even scarf Hurricane 2HKOs after SR.
In terms of sets, LO/FlyZ are nukes being able to even invalidate Milotic bulk mons from switching in and defensive SubTox is as good as ever now with the rise of Tyrantrum and Mandi straight up capable of pp stalling the former out of its most threatening move and just crippling the latter for the rest of the match. For scarf if you can look past relying on it to revenge Gatr, it provides unique advantages over other scarfers. Against teams with the ever popular scarf Garde/Ttrums Scarftres will likely be the fastest mon in the battle and add on that it 2HKOs every scarfer and the vast majority of offensive mons, it will provide pressure and speed control vs offensive teams like no other scarfer. Also add on that it is the second strongest scarfer in the tier only to Ttrum, U-turn (a trait shared by only one other common scarfer), and a unique set of resistances and bulk, there is definitely a defined niche for it.
Additionally, I fail to see why Moltres should be penalized so heavily for its SR weakness in arguably the most hazard removing friendly tier in USM with many defoggers/spinners not only in the highest ranks of the VR and beating most rockers, but also having incredible synergy with Moltres as well. Contrast with Golisopod, a mon that has skyrocketed through the VR in the past weeks in spite of an equally crippling vulnerability to SR in conjunction with Emergency Exit, an even greater need to constantly enter and leave the field because of the nature of First Impression (especially of the banded variety), and the lack of access to a reliable recovery move such as Roost. As mentioned earlier, Moltres' SR weak typing provides many useful resistances in the current meta such as being one of the few safe switch ins to the now ubiquitous Escavalier, able to eat Garde's tough to resist Moonblasts, one of the few offensive mons that forces the aforementioned Golisopod to think twice about clicking First Impression, and even being a fighting resist in a tier lacking good ones that can also beat most fighting types. I believe that there are good reasons why Moltres has both good representation and win rates in RUPL (10th in usage, and 58.3% win rate) and why its win rate is so much better than other high usage juggernauts in the tier such as Bronzong (38.46% win rate), Tyrantrum (30.43% win rate), Garde (42.86% win rate), Rotom-M (44.44% win rate), so on and so on.
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hi positive and helpful RU tiering contributor Nat back again to throw some more nominations at the wall and hope they stick!! Keep in mind these are discussed with the notion of no entei/doom/shao in the tier.
I'd write a few more if i wasn't a lazy bitch ;w;. Enjoy these for now, and hopefully they're as well implemented as my last two rounds of noms. Thanks for reading!
e: @ below user, donphan is a lot more offensive than gligar is, and gligar is terrible when you have rocks and removal in the same set lol. It's also much less notable offensively than donphan. Is gligar better than donphan? obviously. Does it completely overshadow it to the point of no viability, as you suggest? No. Your claim just seems unfounded to me, and not at all based on anything noteworthy. Below I've attached some replays of Donphan doing what it needs to do (spinning OR threatening out hazards while getting hazards up itself, in the same slot, and occasionally doing noteworthy damage to boot.)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ru-362704
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ru-729556756
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ru-361791
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ru-365883
Drapion C+ -> B
Drapion is without a doubt the meta's best answer to bronzong, which exists as the second best and most splashable rocker in our metagame atm. Typical zongs can't touch drap, and it creates a situation where they're forced to switch out and eat the hopefully banded pursuit damage. Considering how the meta has formed in such a way that zong is plenty of fully capable teams main answer to a plethora of serious threats in the meta, drap works well to quickly and effectively ruin a teams defensive backbone. Knock being pretty decent in this meta and drap also being one of the few good rose answers in the meta helps it out too. Scarf can be ran but I think the damage output is rather pitiful. Anyway send this thing to the B ranks where it belongs tyty
Drapion is without a doubt the meta's best answer to bronzong, which exists as the second best and most splashable rocker in our metagame atm. Typical zongs can't touch drap, and it creates a situation where they're forced to switch out and eat the hopefully banded pursuit damage. Considering how the meta has formed in such a way that zong is plenty of fully capable teams main answer to a plethora of serious threats in the meta, drap works well to quickly and effectively ruin a teams defensive backbone. Knock being pretty decent in this meta and drap also being one of the few good rose answers in the meta helps it out too. Scarf can be ran but I think the damage output is rather pitiful. Anyway send this thing to the B ranks where it belongs tyty
Barbaracle C+ -> B / B+
Some discussion about this thing has arose on the RU discord, and it's clear to me that it's one of the most dangerous setup sweepers in the meta. At +2 this thing can dish out incredible damage with powerful STAB Stone Edge+Liquidation, alongside being able to use multiple coverage options like Aerial Ace, Earthquake or Return. It often runs Z-Stone Edge as well, which almost always guarantees a kill if liquidation wouldnt do so. It has decent enough bulk to setup on a good chunk of mons and it's incredibly devastating to a team lacking priority or full hp resists.
Some discussion about this thing has arose on the RU discord, and it's clear to me that it's one of the most dangerous setup sweepers in the meta. At +2 this thing can dish out incredible damage with powerful STAB Stone Edge+Liquidation, alongside being able to use multiple coverage options like Aerial Ace, Earthquake or Return. It often runs Z-Stone Edge as well, which almost always guarantees a kill if liquidation wouldnt do so. It has decent enough bulk to setup on a good chunk of mons and it's incredibly devastating to a team lacking priority or full hp resists.
Hoopa B -> C+
Speaking of sweepers when is the last time you have seen this thing do anything? Providing virtually no defensive value on a team and existing as one of the most exploitable mons in the meta, this thing has not be relevant for a very long time. Anything it aims to do is a role better filled by another mon. The only possible niche this thing still has is that it subs on milo while also hitting zong harder than kingdra does, because otherwise kingdra is just outright better. 262 is an abysmal speed tier for a mon this defensively vulnerable given the other speed tiers of the meta.
Speaking of sweepers when is the last time you have seen this thing do anything? Providing virtually no defensive value on a team and existing as one of the most exploitable mons in the meta, this thing has not be relevant for a very long time. Anything it aims to do is a role better filled by another mon. The only possible niche this thing still has is that it subs on milo while also hitting zong harder than kingdra does, because otherwise kingdra is just outright better. 262 is an abysmal speed tier for a mon this defensively vulnerable given the other speed tiers of the meta.
Escavalier B+ -> A- at least
Escava has seen a surge in viability given recent meta trends imo, and exists as probably the best counter to Gardevoir that maintains a serious offensive presence. Banded Escava hits like an absolute truck and many teams lack a traditional switchin unless they're running A) a steel that brushes off knock off, or B) Gligar despite you risking the eviolite loss. Pursuit is very useful for many of the psychics in the tier as well. Lastly, the defensive capabilities this mon possesses is notable imo, given how much damage it deals in return.
Escava has seen a surge in viability given recent meta trends imo, and exists as probably the best counter to Gardevoir that maintains a serious offensive presence. Banded Escava hits like an absolute truck and many teams lack a traditional switchin unless they're running A) a steel that brushes off knock off, or B) Gligar despite you risking the eviolite loss. Pursuit is very useful for many of the psychics in the tier as well. Lastly, the defensive capabilities this mon possesses is notable imo, given how much damage it deals in return.
Umbreon B+ -> B-
I don't think Umbreon is good at all to be blunt. It's a very one dimensional mon that is weak to some of the tiers best offensive types, such as Bug and Fighting. It also loses vs stuff like milotic and mandibuzz, among other bulkier mons. It's very prone to being abused by setup mons, most notably stuff like Toxicroak, Viriz, Bewear, and Salazzle. It's very much able to be fit onto teams but not to an extent I feel anywhere near validates having a B+ rank at the moment.
I don't think Umbreon is good at all to be blunt. It's a very one dimensional mon that is weak to some of the tiers best offensive types, such as Bug and Fighting. It also loses vs stuff like milotic and mandibuzz, among other bulkier mons. It's very prone to being abused by setup mons, most notably stuff like Toxicroak, Viriz, Bewear, and Salazzle. It's very much able to be fit onto teams but not to an extent I feel anywhere near validates having a B+ rank at the moment.
Toxicroak B+ -> A-
Croak has the pleasure of being one of the tiers best sweepers imo, only struggling from speed and 4mss. That being sad, you'll usually be able to pick off a few if not all of the mons if your opponent guesses your coverage incorrectly, or just doesn't have answers for it. Gunk Shot hits incredibly hard, most notably because Croaks best two sets are LO and Poison-Z. Dark-Z still has viability if you wished to catch zongs, though most cress and jellicents on good teams today run Colbur imo. +2 ice punch netting gligar w/ LO is really significant I feel, as well as neutral drain doing a healthy enough chunk to m-lix and rhyp if they hard countered croak in anticipation of an SD. Facing up to Gatr and Viriz w/ relative comfort despite being slower is noteworthy too imo.
Croak has the pleasure of being one of the tiers best sweepers imo, only struggling from speed and 4mss. That being sad, you'll usually be able to pick off a few if not all of the mons if your opponent guesses your coverage incorrectly, or just doesn't have answers for it. Gunk Shot hits incredibly hard, most notably because Croaks best two sets are LO and Poison-Z. Dark-Z still has viability if you wished to catch zongs, though most cress and jellicents on good teams today run Colbur imo. +2 ice punch netting gligar w/ LO is really significant I feel, as well as neutral drain doing a healthy enough chunk to m-lix and rhyp if they hard countered croak in anticipation of an SD. Facing up to Gatr and Viriz w/ relative comfort despite being slower is noteworthy too imo.
Donphan D -> C
Edit this out if you have to, but I think Donphan has real viability in the meta atm, if only niche. Rocks + Removal in one slot is very beneficial, especially given the limited pool of spinners in the tier. Knock Off has a fair chance to 2HKO Bronzong, while offensive earthquake does more than some folks in the meta would like to believe. Sturdy can be a relatively useful ability as well, if an action is really necessary in a tight spot vs a mon that would otherwise absolutely KO you. Being a decent rock resist helps in a meta lacking them for mons like tyrantrum, and it squares up vs some other mons like toxicroak, dragalge and rhyperior. Living scarf garde and banded zydoge stabs while threatening to OHKO both is pretty cool too. Oh ya and it's also more viable than at least half of the mons in the C / C- range so lol.
Edit this out if you have to, but I think Donphan has real viability in the meta atm, if only niche. Rocks + Removal in one slot is very beneficial, especially given the limited pool of spinners in the tier. Knock Off has a fair chance to 2HKO Bronzong, while offensive earthquake does more than some folks in the meta would like to believe. Sturdy can be a relatively useful ability as well, if an action is really necessary in a tight spot vs a mon that would otherwise absolutely KO you. Being a decent rock resist helps in a meta lacking them for mons like tyrantrum, and it squares up vs some other mons like toxicroak, dragalge and rhyperior. Living scarf garde and banded zydoge stabs while threatening to OHKO both is pretty cool too. Oh ya and it's also more viable than at least half of the mons in the C / C- range so lol.
I'd write a few more if i wasn't a lazy bitch ;w;. Enjoy these for now, and hopefully they're as well implemented as my last two rounds of noms. Thanks for reading!
e: @ below user, donphan is a lot more offensive than gligar is, and gligar is terrible when you have rocks and removal in the same set lol. It's also much less notable offensively than donphan. Is gligar better than donphan? obviously. Does it completely overshadow it to the point of no viability, as you suggest? No. Your claim just seems unfounded to me, and not at all based on anything noteworthy. Below I've attached some replays of Donphan doing what it needs to do (spinning OR threatening out hazards while getting hazards up itself, in the same slot, and occasionally doing noteworthy damage to boot.)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ru-362704
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ru-729556756
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ru-361791
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ru-365883
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Donphan D -> C
Edit this out if you have to, but I think Donphan has real viability in the meta atm, if only niche. Rocks + Removal in one slot is very beneficial, especially given the limited pool of spinners in the tier. Knock Off has a fair chance to 2HKO Bronzong, while offensive earthquake does more than some folks in the meta would like to believe. Sturdy can be a relatively useful ability as well, if an action is really necessary in a tight spot vs a mon that would otherwise absolutely KO you. Being a decent rock resist helps in a meta lacking them for mons like tyrantrum, and it squares up vs some other mons like toxicroak, dragalge and rhyperior. Living scarf garde and banded zydoge stabs while threatening to OHKO both is pretty cool too. Oh ya and it's also more viable than at least half of the mons in the C / C- range so lol.
Edit this out if you have to, but I think Donphan has real viability in the meta atm, if only niche. Rocks + Removal in one slot is very beneficial, especially given the limited pool of spinners in the tier. Knock Off has a fair chance to 2HKO Bronzong, while offensive earthquake does more than some folks in the meta would like to believe. Sturdy can be a relatively useful ability as well, if an action is really necessary in a tight spot vs a mon that would otherwise absolutely KO you. Being a decent rock resist helps in a meta lacking them for mons like tyrantrum, and it squares up vs some other mons like toxicroak, dragalge and rhyperior. Living scarf garde and banded zydoge stabs while threatening to OHKO both is pretty cool too. Oh ya and it's also more viable than at least half of the mons in the C / C- range so lol.
Tl;dr stop saying donphan is good, why would anyone use it over gligar is beyond my comprehension.
Edit as reply to above: every offensive donphan set is better performed by zydog, flygon and particularly rhyperior who shares similar typing, stats, and movepool, except better at everything apart from sturdy. Why would I want to do great damage on a sr/remover set? Gligar already hampers the opponent hard enough. So why would I use it over Gligar? And why would I compress a remover and sr setter in the same set in a meta filled with defoggers and sr setters (which gligar can do anyway)? I haven't seen the replays yet but will edit this post later.
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The reason why you would opt for Donphan over Gligar is because it has more immediate offensive presence in the form of much stronger Earthquakes and Knock Offs, acts as a Head Smash resist and can spin away your opponent's hazards without forfeiting your own in the process. That being said, Donphan invites in opposing removers rather easily, especially Mandibuzz, which means you are very likely to lose them either way. On the other hand, Rotom and Gligar do not appreciate losing their items and Blastoise takes a chunk from Earthquake, so it is not deadweight versus hazard removers either. All in all, while I would personally never use Donphan, I can at least understand the reason why you would use it. Whether or not it stays in D or moves up to C is not of any importance to me, but I thought someone should at least point out its strong points.
I have wanted to make the Donphan nom but was too scared no one would listen or everyone would disagee....
So i would have to Agree with Donphan to C. Rocks + spin is always nice and one of the main reasons I think it should move up is it's CB set. Tons of unpredictable move like Seed Bomb, Play Rough, Gunk shot, and even ice shard to easily handle Flygon. Along with this, it has a strong stab EQ, Knock off, and stone edge. Both sets i feel have true viability in the metagame, being able to check Tyrantrum, Drapion, Brozong, Toxicroak, Lycanroc, Salazzle, Entei, and suprise so many mons on switch in with it's CB set like Flygon, Milotic, Moltres, Feraligatr, Florges, and waaay more. I truly think Donphan is better than trash like Jolteon and Dhelmise and is more on par with C rank pokemon
So i would have to Agree with Donphan to C. Rocks + spin is always nice and one of the main reasons I think it should move up is it's CB set. Tons of unpredictable move like Seed Bomb, Play Rough, Gunk shot, and even ice shard to easily handle Flygon. Along with this, it has a strong stab EQ, Knock off, and stone edge. Both sets i feel have true viability in the metagame, being able to check Tyrantrum, Drapion, Brozong, Toxicroak, Lycanroc, Salazzle, Entei, and suprise so many mons on switch in with it's CB set like Flygon, Milotic, Moltres, Feraligatr, Florges, and waaay more. I truly think Donphan is better than trash like Jolteon and Dhelmise and is more on par with C rank pokemon
I suppose Donphan has enough offensive presence to provide the Stealth Rock + Rapid Spin role better than Forretress can (cough*notsayingmuch*cough*, that's like saying Donphan is a better SR + Spin user than Sandslash), but I don't think this niche is hardly significant enough for the majority of teams to ever consider in their teambuilding; the quality of our hazard removers is so much better than what it once was that it is usually a no-brainer choice to split the hazard setting and removing roles. Basically, you'd have to limit your teambuilding quite significantly to the point where Donphan has to be put on the table. Very few teams would overall benefit from Donphan as a single teamslot compared to the other options available in two.
Even if Donphan can "do things", its very specific niche usually only appeals to very specific teams that rather purposefully cut off their routes to superior candidates (for example: using a Mega that isn't Blastoise on a bulky offensive playstyle and not incorporate a Stealth Rock user until the late(r) stages of teambuilding). All things considered, Donphan is still a poor choice for a 'bulky Ground-type' due to its relatively lacking resistances even discounting its lack of recovery, whereas as a spinner it doesn't bring anywhere near as much to the table as MegaStoise, Tsareena (better overall corebreaking and sustain), and even Cryogonal (sustain + Levitate, plus huge special bulk lets it check things like Yanmega, Roserade, Nidoqueen, non-Aura Sphere MegaStoise, etc.); I'd say Donphan is a marginally better spinner than Dhelmise which, again, isn't saying much. Calling it better than most of the C- mons, much less C mons, is quite the stretch; if this mon ends up out of D, C- Rank is the highest I'd expect out of it.
Edit: LORD HELIX 65 oh and lol Choice Band Donphan doesn't compare to the simple but highly effective approach of other CB Ground-types like Zygarde-10% and Rhyperior. Why and how would you even fit wacky coverage moves like Seed Bomb, Play Rough, and Gunk Shot anyway? Even Ice Shard is hard to fit as is.
Edit again Ajna: whoops I didn't actually state Mega Blastoise's advantage over Donphan back there (does it really need to be said though?). Also the same Rockers that would Toxic Tsareena can kinda Toxic Donphan too (bar Registeel off the top of my head). Cryogonal still walls the hell out of Toxic Nidoqueen.
Even if Donphan can "do things", its very specific niche usually only appeals to very specific teams that rather purposefully cut off their routes to superior candidates (for example: using a Mega that isn't Blastoise on a bulky offensive playstyle and not incorporate a Stealth Rock user until the late(r) stages of teambuilding). All things considered, Donphan is still a poor choice for a 'bulky Ground-type' due to its relatively lacking resistances even discounting its lack of recovery, whereas as a spinner it doesn't bring anywhere near as much to the table as MegaStoise, Tsareena (better overall corebreaking and sustain), and even Cryogonal (sustain + Levitate, plus huge special bulk lets it check things like Yanmega, Roserade, Nidoqueen, non-Aura Sphere MegaStoise, etc.); I'd say Donphan is a marginally better spinner than Dhelmise which, again, isn't saying much. Calling it better than most of the C- mons, much less C mons, is quite the stretch; if this mon ends up out of D, C- Rank is the highest I'd expect out of it.
Edit: LORD HELIX 65 oh and lol Choice Band Donphan doesn't compare to the simple but highly effective approach of other CB Ground-types like Zygarde-10% and Rhyperior. Why and how would you even fit wacky coverage moves like Seed Bomb, Play Rough, and Gunk Shot anyway? Even Ice Shard is hard to fit as is.
Edit again Ajna: whoops I didn't actually state Mega Blastoise's advantage over Donphan back there (does it really need to be said though?). Also the same Rockers that would Toxic Tsareena can kinda Toxic Donphan too (bar Registeel off the top of my head). Cryogonal still walls the hell out of Toxic Nidoqueen.
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donphan is a reliable head smash switchin for offense that allows you to get your rocks up, keep your opponents’ off, and run a water that’s not named blastoise. that’s a niche, but definitely a larger one then y’all are giving it credit for.
Punchshroom bro what balance core is megastoise breaking by itself (even with yawn), what is tsareena’s sustainability doing for you when you lose to megalix and get toxic’d by every other rocker bar donphan, and what is cryogonal doing except losing to every rocker (again bar donphan)? cryogonal can check some things, but that’s implying that rocks aren’t up. if cryo is your spinner rocks are going to be up, or cryogonal is going to be dead.
cryo only beats non toxic, non fire blast, non focus blast queen too which is like lol.
Punchshroom bro what balance core is megastoise breaking by itself (even with yawn), what is tsareena’s sustainability doing for you when you lose to megalix and get toxic’d by every other rocker bar donphan, and what is cryogonal doing except losing to every rocker (again bar donphan)? cryogonal can check some things, but that’s implying that rocks aren’t up. if cryo is your spinner rocks are going to be up, or cryogonal is going to be dead.
cryo only beats non toxic, non fire blast, non focus blast queen too which is like lol.
Okay first off its completely pointless to state what spinner x has over spinner y when both of them function completely differently and are played on different kinds of teams.
Mega blastoise can be a better spinner than donphan(something which is obvious and shouldn't even be stated) but theres no way to say one completely outclasses the other when they are added onto a team for different reasons.
Donphan, in my opinion, should be used as a more reliable head smash sponge for more offensive teams, since the options for this role are very limited. Offense basically has to rely on nidoqueen, doublade or bewear for that which can go wrong in a number of ways unless you opt for bewear(doublade isn't that good at the moment and is usually just a huge momentum drain for offense and nidoqueen obviously isnt taking it too well). And none of these pokemon can spin, so theres a clear defined niche that donphan fills.
Personally i dislike the thought of running stealth rocks + rapid spin on it though, i think you get the most ouf of it by just having it spin since more often than not your offensive team will need nidoqueen as the rocker anyway.
I usually go with knock toxic eq spin or sometimes even gunk shot to nab the grass types by surprise, you can't do any of these things if you're wasting a slot on stealth rocks.
Mega blastoise can be a better spinner than donphan(something which is obvious and shouldn't even be stated) but theres no way to say one completely outclasses the other when they are added onto a team for different reasons.
Donphan, in my opinion, should be used as a more reliable head smash sponge for more offensive teams, since the options for this role are very limited. Offense basically has to rely on nidoqueen, doublade or bewear for that which can go wrong in a number of ways unless you opt for bewear(doublade isn't that good at the moment and is usually just a huge momentum drain for offense and nidoqueen obviously isnt taking it too well). And none of these pokemon can spin, so theres a clear defined niche that donphan fills.
Personally i dislike the thought of running stealth rocks + rapid spin on it though, i think you get the most ouf of it by just having it spin since more often than not your offensive team will need nidoqueen as the rocker anyway.
I usually go with knock toxic eq spin or sometimes even gunk shot to nab the grass types by surprise, you can't do any of these things if you're wasting a slot on stealth rocks.
Also agree with Nat's noms, Barbaracle and Drapion especially. Already mentioned why Drapion is very good right now as it exploits Bronzong's omnipresence and the general rise in Psychic types, meanwhile Barbaracle is the type of sweeper that forces your opponent to completely center their gameplan around not letting it set up since it usually only needs some chip on a mon or two before it can go to town. Better than Cloyster as far as SS sweepers go, so deserving of B+ imo.
I'd back Medicham up for about B - too honestly, depending slightly on Mienshao going as fast as possible obviously. Speed tier is a major boon for it over Machamp, coverage for nearly every check bar Cresselia, and has multiple different usable sets though LO is probably preferable due to how ridiculous it is to switch into.
Barbaracle to the Bs is fine, but - and I might be overrating it I guess - it could honestly go to about A- in this current meta. Only Scarf Salazzle is an usable scarfer that can outspeed it, it hits ridiculously hard, has about no coverage issue in one set. For me it's definitely more threatening than Feraligatr who has to constantly pick and choose between attempting to clean and breaking, while the flying resist is seriously clutch against offence.
Banette was C+ purely because it was an amazing pick on HO, and lowkey it's still a decent mega for it, but the drops of Steelix and Mandibuzz have definitely hurt its potential on the archetype. Probably a drop to C-, but what it did against almost everything else for HO is still mostly relevant.
Froslass probably can afford a drop too, spikes stack isn't completely terrible - shoutout Meru for Tbolt Froslass - but it's hardly ever properly stacking and requires a ridiculous amount of consideration when teambuilding around it, which I hate for a suicide lead.
Zygarde is still really good I feel, and some exploration around DD has been done somewhat convincingly. While not exactly great, the fact that it streamlines ground resists more than any other mon of the typing allows it a freedom that is somewhat noteworthy, and Outrage is still very punishing. Speed tier is excellent, priority is still dope, and has freedom in the fourth slot to punish specific switchins. Wouldn't drop still.
Barbaracle to the Bs is fine, but - and I might be overrating it I guess - it could honestly go to about A- in this current meta. Only Scarf Salazzle is an usable scarfer that can outspeed it, it hits ridiculously hard, has about no coverage issue in one set. For me it's definitely more threatening than Feraligatr who has to constantly pick and choose between attempting to clean and breaking, while the flying resist is seriously clutch against offence.
Banette was C+ purely because it was an amazing pick on HO, and lowkey it's still a decent mega for it, but the drops of Steelix and Mandibuzz have definitely hurt its potential on the archetype. Probably a drop to C-, but what it did against almost everything else for HO is still mostly relevant.
Froslass probably can afford a drop too, spikes stack isn't completely terrible - shoutout Meru for Tbolt Froslass - but it's hardly ever properly stacking and requires a ridiculous amount of consideration when teambuilding around it, which I hate for a suicide lead.
Zygarde is still really good I feel, and some exploration around DD has been done somewhat convincingly. While not exactly great, the fact that it streamlines ground resists more than any other mon of the typing allows it a freedom that is somewhat noteworthy, and Outrage is still very punishing. Speed tier is excellent, priority is still dope, and has freedom in the fourth slot to punish specific switchins. Wouldn't drop still.
I still disagree with Slowking to B+. It gets wrecked by several threats like Tyrantrum, Feraligatr, Mega Abomasnow, Yanmega, Mega Ampharos Virizion, and somehow managea to lose against entei most of the time?? That being said, it checks a lot of special attackers and stronge special threats, but since it loses to so many physical mons, B- seems pretty fair. However I can get on board with Medicham bring ranked. it hits insanely hard and it's coverage moves are nearly unresisted. I also can agree with Golisopod to A. Yep A. It's just really that good when you have access to awesome attack and physical bulk, strong stabs, a powerful priority move, and the ability to deal with Salazzle and Mienshao Excellently.
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oh my goddddddddddddddddddddddd all my noms have been SNIPED
UR -> C+/B-
i agree with this nom, everything sage already said is true, but id like to add that scarf medi is a very useable set that massively improves its offense matchup and still hits like a truck. scarf does struggle vs bulkier mons like mandibuzz and protect users like bronzong, whose protect shenanigans are even harder to avoid while choice locked. however ive found that running drain punch in the last slot can mitigate this and allow it to beat other protect users as well. this set does come with its own problems though. its mediocre speed doesnt allow it to reliably revenge flygon or scarf gardevoir and it doesnt provide as much utility as other “slow” scarfers like tyrantrums defensive utility and gardevoirs healing wish but its still a great scarfer due to its huge attack combined with its high speed.
UR -> C lol
this mon is kinda like donphan but access to spikes + slow volt makes it not completely unviable. still, its passive as all hell and loses to most removers. its also really frail on the special side which sucks cause its defensive typing is better for taking special hits. i might be going too hard on forry bc i hate it but i really think this mon is pretty useless in this meta.
C -> D
both of these are just really outclassed mons that struggle to fit on most teams and have little to no niche compared to araquanid/galvantula or pyukumuku in ribombees and quagsires case respectively.
while you could argue that ribombees higher speed and fairy typing distinguish it from its competition, imo it's certainly not enough. it struggles to beat most defoggers like gligar or florges and the ones it can beat, the other two web setters can as well. its higher speed is barely a niche because it doesnt help versus pokemon that give webs teams headaches like swellow, aerdodactyl and scarf molt. blastoise can just spin in front of it with no repercussions, and other defoggers too.
quagsires ground typing is more of a curse than a blessing. it makes it vulnerable to sweepers like linoone and virizion that pyuku is able to beat and despite its higher offenses it cant beat pokemon that pyuku struggles with anyways, like hoopa or mismagius. it cant even beat common electric-types: it cant switch into amphys dragon pulse, much less rotom mows leaf storm. even if it could, no electric type is a threat to common stall cores anyways.
C -> C-/D
much like the noms above these mons are pretty bad choices in the current meta.
galvantula is a mediocre webs setter that really limits your teambuilding. galvantula webs are really formulaic: galv / spinblocker / milo / honch / 2 abusers with a bunch of taunt users. relying on webs so much can be disastrous if your opponent has an opportunity to defog - which tbh isnt all that hard considering the ample removal we have now. besides the fact that webs arent all that great, araquanid is simply a better webs setter due to its ability to set webs multiple times, unlike galv, which would typically be able to set them only once. at least its better than ribombee.
decid is honestly such a niche pick rn. while z giga impact is a cool lure, there are more effective mandibuzz answers that dont waste a z slot and can wallbreak more reliably than decid can. its also a terrible spinblocker. it literally cant switch into any relevant spinner (and also irrelevant ones like dhelm and donphan u tend to find on ladder) making it pretty worthless on webs. its outclassed by hoopa and virizion as a stallbreaker or offensive grass type respectively.
cryogonal used to be cool in sm where hazard removal was extremely limited but its a really useless mon now that everything gets defog. i really dont see the merit in using cryogonal ever. its supposed to counter nidoqueen but loses if its running toxic/focus blast/fire blast, yanmega but it takes waaay to much damage from bug buzz, especially if its taken rocks damage. having a rocks weakness, and its typing in general, is also extremely crippling for a remover and a defensive mon.
C+ -> C
why anyone would use this instead of scarf ttrum or aerodactyl is beyond me. it offers no defensive utility to a team at all and relies solely on 50-50s to set up. while its z move is strong, you could just use another more consistent breaker like bewear or gatr. its suicide lead is so bad too, because it loses 1v1 to most slower removal mons and id much rather just use archeops or kabutops as a lead on ho.
C+ -> lower, maybe even D
this mon does precisely nothing in the current meta. walled by really common walls such as mandibuzz and mlix, its only niche lies in cteaming hyper offense. this is hardly a c+ worthy niche. the teams it is good at fighting against arent used as much as they were. while taunt may sound cool to beat fatter builds, the ubiquity of walls it cant break through severely limit its breaking power. not to mention the huge opportunity cost in running banette over a more consistent mega for offense. i feel c- would represent its current niche in the tier, though i also think d rank might not be that big of a stretch.
B -> B-
despite sun being extremely broken with megadoom around after it gets "quick"banned sun is back to being mediocre and match up dependent. and while it can definitely excel versus some builds its, in my opinion, way too unreliable to remain in b.
B -> B-/C+
i really like froslass ho, which makes it kinda frustrating to admit that its not worthy of b anymore. ho in general is not as good as balance or bulky offense rn. while its still a pretty good suicide lead, froslass ho is almost a playstyle by itself so i feel a lower rank to represent it would be appropriate.
B -> B-
when was the last time you saw chesnaught do something in a game? defog becoming prevalent fucked up chesnaught. spending your grass type slot on this mon feels like a waste because other grass types are so good rn. having your scald switch in be susceptible to burns really blows, too. i could even see this go to c+ tbqh.
C+ -> B-/B
C+ -> B-/B
B -> C+
UR -> C/C+
A- -> A
COMFEY POST INCOMING!!!!!!
i agree with this nom, everything sage already said is true, but id like to add that scarf medi is a very useable set that massively improves its offense matchup and still hits like a truck. scarf does struggle vs bulkier mons like mandibuzz and protect users like bronzong, whose protect shenanigans are even harder to avoid while choice locked. however ive found that running drain punch in the last slot can mitigate this and allow it to beat other protect users as well. this set does come with its own problems though. its mediocre speed doesnt allow it to reliably revenge flygon or scarf gardevoir and it doesnt provide as much utility as other “slow” scarfers like tyrantrums defensive utility and gardevoirs healing wish but its still a great scarfer due to its huge attack combined with its high speed.
this mon is kinda like donphan but access to spikes + slow volt makes it not completely unviable. still, its passive as all hell and loses to most removers. its also really frail on the special side which sucks cause its defensive typing is better for taking special hits. i might be going too hard on forry bc i hate it but i really think this mon is pretty useless in this meta.
both of these are just really outclassed mons that struggle to fit on most teams and have little to no niche compared to araquanid/galvantula or pyukumuku in ribombees and quagsires case respectively.
while you could argue that ribombees higher speed and fairy typing distinguish it from its competition, imo it's certainly not enough. it struggles to beat most defoggers like gligar or florges and the ones it can beat, the other two web setters can as well. its higher speed is barely a niche because it doesnt help versus pokemon that give webs teams headaches like swellow, aerdodactyl and scarf molt. blastoise can just spin in front of it with no repercussions, and other defoggers too.
quagsires ground typing is more of a curse than a blessing. it makes it vulnerable to sweepers like linoone and virizion that pyuku is able to beat and despite its higher offenses it cant beat pokemon that pyuku struggles with anyways, like hoopa or mismagius. it cant even beat common electric-types: it cant switch into amphys dragon pulse, much less rotom mows leaf storm. even if it could, no electric type is a threat to common stall cores anyways.
much like the noms above these mons are pretty bad choices in the current meta.
galvantula is a mediocre webs setter that really limits your teambuilding. galvantula webs are really formulaic: galv / spinblocker / milo / honch / 2 abusers with a bunch of taunt users. relying on webs so much can be disastrous if your opponent has an opportunity to defog - which tbh isnt all that hard considering the ample removal we have now. besides the fact that webs arent all that great, araquanid is simply a better webs setter due to its ability to set webs multiple times, unlike galv, which would typically be able to set them only once. at least its better than ribombee.
decid is honestly such a niche pick rn. while z giga impact is a cool lure, there are more effective mandibuzz answers that dont waste a z slot and can wallbreak more reliably than decid can. its also a terrible spinblocker. it literally cant switch into any relevant spinner (and also irrelevant ones like dhelm and donphan u tend to find on ladder) making it pretty worthless on webs. its outclassed by hoopa and virizion as a stallbreaker or offensive grass type respectively.
cryogonal used to be cool in sm where hazard removal was extremely limited but its a really useless mon now that everything gets defog. i really dont see the merit in using cryogonal ever. its supposed to counter nidoqueen but loses if its running toxic/focus blast/fire blast, yanmega but it takes waaay to much damage from bug buzz, especially if its taken rocks damage. having a rocks weakness, and its typing in general, is also extremely crippling for a remover and a defensive mon.
why anyone would use this instead of scarf ttrum or aerodactyl is beyond me. it offers no defensive utility to a team at all and relies solely on 50-50s to set up. while its z move is strong, you could just use another more consistent breaker like bewear or gatr. its suicide lead is so bad too, because it loses 1v1 to most slower removal mons and id much rather just use archeops or kabutops as a lead on ho.
this mon does precisely nothing in the current meta. walled by really common walls such as mandibuzz and mlix, its only niche lies in cteaming hyper offense. this is hardly a c+ worthy niche. the teams it is good at fighting against arent used as much as they were. while taunt may sound cool to beat fatter builds, the ubiquity of walls it cant break through severely limit its breaking power. not to mention the huge opportunity cost in running banette over a more consistent mega for offense. i feel c- would represent its current niche in the tier, though i also think d rank might not be that big of a stretch.
despite sun being extremely broken with megadoom around after it gets "quick"banned sun is back to being mediocre and match up dependent. and while it can definitely excel versus some builds its, in my opinion, way too unreliable to remain in b.
i really like froslass ho, which makes it kinda frustrating to admit that its not worthy of b anymore. ho in general is not as good as balance or bulky offense rn. while its still a pretty good suicide lead, froslass ho is almost a playstyle by itself so i feel a lower rank to represent it would be appropriate.
when was the last time you saw chesnaught do something in a game? defog becoming prevalent fucked up chesnaught. spending your grass type slot on this mon feels like a waste because other grass types are so good rn. having your scald switch in be susceptible to burns really blows, too. i could even see this go to c+ tbqh.
COMFEY POST INCOMING!!!!!!
Popping in to say I definitely support this nomination. I've used Barbaracle quite a bit lately and it's been a very solid sweeper whenever I've used it. Its typing also gives it very solid resistances that allow it to setup on the likes of Salazzle, Moltres, Swellow, Zydog choice locked into E-Speed, and other things like choice-locked Shaymin (into Air Slash), and its good physical bulk allows it to take some neutral hits quite well too, meaning it can setup on Bronzong, Mandibuzz (if it doesn't carry Foul Play, that is), and even weaker mons like Gligar. Those are all fairly common Pokemon in the current metagame and as such Barbaracle finds a lot of very solid setup opportunities here. It's very hard to wall/revenge kill after a boost since Liquidation at +2 is exceptionally powerful, and if you run Rockium Z, a well timed Continental Crush can allow Barbaracle to effectively muscle through Milotic and Cresselia, which is great considering how hard they are to take down otherwise. Because of this there are very few things that can comfortably stop Barbaracle after a boost, and those that can (like Chesnaught or Toxicroak) still have to be wary of Barbaracle's potential coverage options such as Return or Aerial Ace, especially if they've taken some damage prior from hazards or Barbaracle's teammates. The only real problem I have with it is that its low Speed pre-boost makes it kind of vulnerable when setting up but unless you have a strong priority user like Golisopod or Honchkrow it will be very hard to stop once it gets going, especially since it gets plenty of good setup opportunities in this meta and its STABs+an extra coverage allows it to hit a lot of the metagame hard with strong overall coverage and power. Because of all this Barbaracle makes a really good sweeper/cleaner in this metagame and with a well built team (there are plenty of good, strong ways to support Barbaracle on a team too) it's a very effective threat thanks to the multitude of setup opportunities it can find in the metagame and how hard it hits after a boost (plus solid coverage). I'd definitely support this moving up to the B Ranks at least, somewhere in B would be very good for it imo.
man it's been a long time since I last ever posted in these kinds of threads. lol.
man it's been a long time since I last ever posted in these kinds of threads. lol.
Though it is true that slowking does have a rather rough match up against many physical attackers in the tier, it still does not change the fact that its role is quite unique.
With that said, I strongly agree with a slowking rise; I was actually going to make a post myself for it, nonetheless, I feel that slowking is benefitting from metagame trends in general. With numerous special attackers on the rise such as noivern and gardevoir, along with other threats such as salazzle and moltres, I find that slowking's niche is really valuable and underappreciated; even in RUPL, the king has seen decent usage with a good win rate as well. You could argue that it is hurt by the rise of drapion and escavalier(to an extent), which is true, but I think the fact that Slowking is finding itself onto more and more builds is a strong indicator that it is something that is not on the same level of viability as something like pangoro, but more along the lines of rhyperior. Rise to B+.
Also agreeing with klinklang, golisopod, and hoopa nominations!
With that said, I strongly agree with a slowking rise; I was actually going to make a post myself for it, nonetheless, I feel that slowking is benefitting from metagame trends in general. With numerous special attackers on the rise such as noivern and gardevoir, along with other threats such as salazzle and moltres, I find that slowking's niche is really valuable and underappreciated; even in RUPL, the king has seen decent usage with a good win rate as well. You could argue that it is hurt by the rise of drapion and escavalier(to an extent), which is true, but I think the fact that Slowking is finding itself onto more and more builds is a strong indicator that it is something that is not on the same level of viability as something like pangoro, but more along the lines of rhyperior. Rise to B+.
Also agreeing with klinklang, golisopod, and hoopa nominations!
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