Salamence - The Face of The Next Suspect, or Merely OU's Strongest Dragon?

Salamence as a Suspect?

  • Yes - Offensive Characteristic

    Votes: 223 29.7%
  • Yes - Defensive Characteristic

    Votes: 7 0.9%
  • Yes - Support Characteristic

    Votes: 26 3.5%
  • No - It Fits No Characteristic

    Votes: 414 55.2%
  • I'm Not Sure

    Votes: 80 10.7%

  • Total voters
    750
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Not open for further replies.
Objection, why don't we look at some stats for all your points.

| Gengar | Move | HP-Fire | 24.2 | - No it does not usually run Hidden Power Fire, please look at the stats before saying things.

| Gengar | Move | Other (12) | < 5.8 | - This is where Focus Punch is, one of 12 moves within less than 5.8% of its moves.

Gengar does not have the bulk that Salamence has to sweep a significant proportion of an opponent's team. Many of the Pokemon used to deal with Dragon Dance Salamence, eg Scizor, Choice Scarf Latias, Choice Scarf Jirachi, Choice Scarf Flygon, Choice Scarf Gengar, are massive Pursuit weaks, face a Speed tie, or have to watch out for Magnezone coming in. Gengar has so many Pokemon who can get an easy or quite easy switch in, and yes we can refer to Snorlax, Scizor, and Blissey among others as almost all the time, Gengar does not have the required move to deal with them, and Focus Punch takes a lot more prediction than say Draco Meteor or whatever else Salamence has under its belt. So much of dealing with it often relies on it being stuck in Outrage.
 
Another point about Salamence - if it is Uber then why do nearly 80% of teams NOT have it? OK, so it's not going to find a place on stall teams, there will be novices who don't use it, and weather teams it doesn't fit on either. But besides that, if it really was Uber I'd expect it to be used more.
 
Also, Blue_Tornado, you are assuming that everyone wants to make an OU team using only the top 15 or so OU pokemon. You could say "they're used so much because they're good" but there are lesser-used pokemon that are also good without being totally outclassed by something else (eg, Ambipom, Weavile, Heracross), and they can be powerful forces with the right support, just like Salamence. Sure, they may not sweep whole teams by themselves, but neither will Salamence when so many pokemon can revenge kill it (which makes the DD set rather rubbish in comparison if you have to lose your boosts just to survive; meanwhile, the rest of the sets can be taken care of with any fast pokemon with an Ice-type move).
If you read carfully, I said that I "analyzed the metagame", as in - I see if the Pokemon at hand can sweep most of the common Pokemon without no bog effort, and the most common Pokemon are most of the metagame. Of course there are some exceptions, but when talking about true competitive play, the most common Pokemon ARE the metagame more or less. And I just based my statement on that.
 
Another point about Salamence - if it is Uber then why do nearly 80% of teams NOT have it? OK, so it's not going to find a place on stall teams, there will be novices who don't use it, and weather teams it doesn't fit on either. But besides that, if it really was Uber I'd expect it to be used more.
Usage is a sometimes a bad indicator. One of the big reasons would be because Scizor is rank #1 (quite firmly, too), which means that Salamence is going to be used less because people are arguably overpreparing for it as a threat.
 
Okay, before anybody else brings up the "oh, this and that Pokemon also don't have any 100% counters" argument, please take into consideration the opportunity costs of using absurd sets on certain Pokemon. Sure, lots of Pokemon can alter their sets around to beat one of their counters successfully, but that often means that they will lose out on the overall effectiveness of their set. Agility Lucario with HP Ice can beat Gliscor, but that doesn't stop the set from completely sucking.

The fact of the matter is, Salamence has a wide variety of USEFUL sets that can each sweep in their own way with ease. That is what sets Salamence apart from all other sweepers in OU. I'm tired of hearing ridiculous points that have obviously not been thought out well, and do not provide any substantial evidence as to why Salamence shouldn't at least be TESTED.

Also, "Scizor can revenge kill!!!!!" is not even a solid argument, for the last time. First of all, it can't even revenge Bulky Mences, and second of all, even if it could beat all Mences (and wasn't so easily baited and killed by any good Mence user), it wouldn't matter, because requiring a Pokemon to be on a team in order to beat Mence just goes to show how broken Mence is.
 
By your theory, Gengar should be uber as well because nothing truly counters Gengar. Blissey? Sub Punch/Specs Focus Blast beats it. Scizor? Don't Gengar usually run HP Fire in case of Scizor? Not a counter then. And this is a pokemon that, with the possible exception of the Sub Punch set, doesn't even need to spend a turn setting up.

Ugh, how is this comparison relevant at all. Gengar is fragile, doesn't have 140/120 power stab attacks that are only resisted by one type, can't raise its offensive stats, has to rely on 70% accurate Focus Blast for coverage unlike Fire Blast/EQ etc.. list goes on.
 
All those statements are my honest opinions, and I see nothing wrong with stating them, to be either agreed with or disagreed with by other forum goers. What's your point?

I so wanted to stop reading your post right here, because of how incredibly wrong and obviously misinformed you are. Why didn't you? I certainly wouldn't bother reading a post that long if I thought that about its writer. If the opinion is so off-basis, than it's not worth replying to because no one will believe it.

Where did we go over this "so many times" before? When was such a definite conclusion drawn? As far as I know, most respected battlers think Mence should at least be tested, and the majority even already feel it should be banned.

If I had a buck for every thread and post we've had about a Salamence suspect test, I could at least by myself a new macro lens for my DSLR. That's all I meant.

What about Scizor being everywhere? Bulky DD Mences are built to set up on Scizors, so I'm not sure what your point here is. Also, cool, lets make it a requirement to have Scizor on every team, so that we can have a "reliable" way of taking out Mence. As for the part I italicized, I just wasn't really sure what you were saying, so perhaps you could clarify? That sentence does not make sense.

Well, at least you came out and indirectly admitted your bias as to why you want Mence around (you need it to beat stall). I find it ironic that you would cite Mence's destructive power as one of the reasons you think it should stay OU, though, lol.

You make it sound as though sweepers get nominated to be tested every other day. We ARE being careful about this, and that's why Mence is being nominated to get tested, not being nominated to get banned. You seem to be getting the two confused a lot.

Your unfounded speculation has been noted.

You'll notice the phrase, "wouldn't surprise me," indicating that I neither know, nor claim to know if said speculation could be true or not. I'm just saying that it "wouldn't surprise me if it were true. I make no claim as to knowing or not.

K, more confirmation that you are very anti-stall, which further indicates your bias. Also more citing Scizor as the prominent method of killing Mence, which is not even a valid argument. Again, why should people need to use Scizor (a Pokemon who isn't even reliable, being complete Magnezone food) on all their teams to deal with Mence?

Fortunately for the rest of us, "what pisses ChouToshio off" isn't a criteria we consider when determining suspects.

Ugh, do I even have to respond to statements like this? -_-''

I'll give you one, that "what pisses ChouToshio off" isn't a criteria-- but that's because I'm too damn lazy to participate in the voting process, or even laddering on a regular basis. If I did though, than it would be a criteria, weighed against the criteria of John, Jack, Jill's opinion and the opinions of everyone else who made the criteria. Because if people really are biased one way or another, once they make the criteria they'll just write a paragraph that "sounds good" to the people who are counting.

In short: The whole banning process has at its heart, the goal of making a game people want to play. People's preferences are at what is at the heart of the process. Arguments that appeal to other players who would agree with me that they would hate a tar-slow meta, are totally worth talking about. If people disagree with the sentiments I have raised, then Salamence will get tested-- and that is the key point in the discrepancy between "testing" and "banning." After all, there's only so much time and energy people are willing to put into tests that they don't see the value of. As of now, looking at the top of the thread, there really aren't a lot of folks who'd see too much value in a Salamence test.



Additionally (feel free to not read on, it's really not that worth it):

Smogon, after a whole lot of ridiculous debates we had way back, finally admitted to itself that this process is subjective, and that's why we have made a system that at its heart is based on majority rule.

There is no inherent virtue to a "balanced" metagame. We value balance only because the players think a balanced game is more fun. The "is more fun," is what gives governing the meta one way or another any real meaning.

By the same virtue, if the marjority of players so desire there is nothing wrong with building a metagame with the intent of making it faster, slower or less haxy. In the case of the later, we have done this by banning double team, OHKO moves etc. We have sleep clause because it's no fun to play a game with Scarf Brelooms on both sides sleeping whole teams.

When we make arguments here about such matter, it's not to prove anything, especially not with facts. You can't prove that "A metagame with Scizor on every team to check mence is broken," and I can't prove that "A metagame with a stall circle-jerk is stupid." Because both of these statements, and all these opinions, are completely subjective.

The real purpose of debate is simply to persuade others to our own way of thinking. You say I have revealed bias-- I say, so what? The purpose of my statements are simply to either persuade others to my own way of thinking, or to give words to people who would have the same opinion if they had words. It is their free choice as to whether they will agree with me or not-- in which case, it doesn't matter if my opinion is biased, because those devoted to a slow metagame will refuse to agree, and act on their own accord. Again, their opinion that a slow metagame is more fun than a fast one is just as subjective and biased as mine. Here's the punch line:


There's nothing wrong with that at all.


So you see, there is nothing ironic about me citing Salamence's power as to a reason to keep him around, because in my book that power lends to a what is in my eyes a fun and healthy metagame. That statement has just as much fundamental value to it as any other ultimately-opinion-based statement you could make about why pokemon x should/shouldn't be banned/tested.


As for all the paragraph writing and other stipulations concerned with voting in order to make the process "less subjective," I'm going to say that I stand 100% by my argument, and in this case, I believe that process is flawed. I actually applaud Smogon for making a voting system at all-- because that is being a whole lot more honest with ourselves than we were before this whole banning/testing fiasco started with Wob way way back. It is because of this sentiment that I really don't care too much whether the current system stays or not (it's fine fundamentally), but if you had to ask me my honest opinion, here it is:

I do think we would be being even more honest with ourselves if we just made it a free vote. After all, this game belongs just as much to [the guy with his Ninjask-Pass-To-CB-Medicham at the bottom of the ladder who can't write out a paragraph to save his life because Mexican-Spanish is his first language] as it does to the champion at the top of the ladder or any of the administrators. The testing itself can be valuable because it gives people a chance to make their opinions more informed, but ultimately it still comes down to opinions. The final voting itself should reflect this, and be honest about the fact that it is all opinion-based.

That's my honest opinion, though I will give respects to the fact that those who put real effort into advancing and administrating the game (which frankly I do not fall under) should be valued and given the respect they deserve. Respect and honor, but frankly the opinion of one player is just that, one voice amongst thousands who all take part in this game.


With this, I have laid out the entirety of my (unchangeable) opinion, regarding the metagame, forum discussion and even the suspect process. I got nothing more to say, so I won't be saying anything more. :P
 
Salamence's biggest thorn in his side is his survivability; taking 25% on each switch in, usually losing 10% for each attack, and losing 6% to ever so common sand is really just so much, especially because priority is omnipresent to smack him around. If anything, switching in is Salamence's biggest enemy, as having to suffer from SR, an attack, status, or having to switch into something that statted up, ensures that it is never particularly easy for him. And the ease at which he can be forced out, whether it be a Latas, Scizor, bulky water, etc. only makes his life more miserable.

Maybe if his longevity wasn't so suspect he could be in the running for uber status, but as of now Salamence is mainly a dangerous, but short lived threat.

Bulky sets that attempt to last longer really aren't the most effective; he can't stop bulky water very well, Scizor can still ruin him if he gets the CH, and the team support he requires means that heavy offensive teams or stall can cause significant issues. He just isn't built to last.
 
Also, "Scizor can revenge kill!!!!!" is not even a solid argument, for the last time. First of all, it can't even revenge Bulky Mences, and second of all, even if it could beat all Mences (and wasn't so easily baited and killed by any good Mence user), it wouldn't matter, because requiring a Pokemon to be on a team in order to beat Mence just goes to show how broken Mence is.

In the same vein as how "agility hp ice luke sucks" i can make the claim bulky mence sucks, is walled by everything with a def stat of over 2 (i.e you still arent getting past guys like swampert and open yourself up to even MORE defensive threats due to lack in attack) and SD Scizor actually uses YOU (bulky mence) as set up fodder. :/

The bolded part is just silly, so every pokemon in OU is broken because "they require a pokemon to beat it", please elaborate. Im not sure if it was worded wrong but yeah.
 
More importantly-- do you really want to play in a metagame without pokemon like Salamence? That one kill that Salamence has a good chance of pulling off is instrumental in preventing the metagame becoming a circle jerk of stall. Frankly I'd say that's a very good thing considering the meta is already a circle jerk of conservative bulky-offense, despite Salamence being around.

You may say almost the same thing about Dragonite. All members of stall teams are slower then it anyway, so it's as hard to counter for them as DDMence (or MixMence). So yes, even if Salamence ends up banned, Dragonite is still there to use. Also Dragonite may run Mix set like Salamence with only slightly lower Special attack. Heck, you may take out Porygon2 as counter/check as unlike in Mence case you can't trace Intimidiate back and Outrage easily OHKOes poor Pory2 back. The only thing that holds back Dragonite is slighty better speed of Salamence and unlike Salamence it has few more checks then Mence (Like Scarf Tentacruel, Scarf Jirachi or ScarfLuke and last two can handle one Draco Meteor if you mispredict and switch on it). Anyway, my point is even if Salamence ends up banned, we still have some "replacement" with similar checks and few more. And those few makes it less broken then Salamence.

To be honest, at first I thought that Salamence is OU, even with the power he has, but some argument here convinced me enough to think otherwise. I won't use the same arguments as I would be forced to say similar sentences like Philip7086 or other users. Anyway, if Salamence takes that much damage anyway from SR and Sandstorm, I think damage he deals is enough to make up for it, opening holes for other teammates and some Salamences use Roost making up for it (not always, but sometimes you may have this turn for Roost). In this situation I wouldn't nominate it under offensive, but support characteristics. Cheers.
 
Offensive Characteristic
A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it is capable of sweeping through a significant portion of teams in the metagame with little effort.

Garchomp was voted suspect, not because of its versatile movepool (decent in the physical section, but not special.), but because it good exploit its 108/95/85 defences with a Yache berry, getting it a boost and then sweeping, this is the way Garchomp got past its 'counters', with its bulk.

Salamence does not have that great of a bulk, although its not frail by any means. Salamence overcomes its 'counters' which are usually physical walls, by using its versatile movepool; Special attacks, like Draco Meteor to dent Gyarados, Hippowdon and Gliscor. it can also be Eved to destroy walls like Cresselia, without it affecting its attacking abilities (sweeping/wall breaking.) Such an example is demonstrated in the new mixmence set where Salamence is given moves to combat Cresselia with Outrage+ Draco meteor, its nature also changes to Mild in this set, and just a small change allows it to survive a quad times weakness of ice beam from cresselia and blissey. Even though these moves are specified to defeat Cresselia, they can beat the large portion of the metagame. So salamence' versatality in defeating its 'counters' from both spectrums is what really puts it up there, allowing it to sweep easily.

If after the current test stage, latias gets voted Uber, Salamence will have one less check, meaning then it can sweep much easily, Jirachi might be a problem as a revenge killer, after a DD with a +speed nature, it ties with it, and can EQ and destroy it. As for Scizor, you have 5 other members waiting in line, use them. So what I'm saying is, If dedicated trainers can at least cripple, or slow down foes (t-wave), such as jirachi, then they've mostly done their job to allow the deadly dragon sweep unhindered.
 
A believe Mence to be a suspect under the support characteristic. Due to his ability to create a much more favorable outcome for other sweepers such as Metagross and Tyranitar.

I mean, MixMence. Its the most threatening set right now, one misprediction and you lose a pokemon. As shown by the calcs in the "Why Mence should be a suspect" thread, you can see that he can significantly weaken every wall out there making other sweepers that much more potent.

I don't feel like going too deep. I would like to see him tested though.
 
If anything, switching in is Salamence's biggest enemy, as having to suffer from SR, an attack, status, or having to switch into something that statted up, ensures that it is never particularly easy for him.
Stealth Rock can be got rid of or prevented from appearing, Sandstorm isn't THAT common, and Mence has 5 resists and an immunity to switch in on.
Wish support is great for Mence too, but that's probably not considered significant for deciding if he's Uber.
 
Since Gengar can't run Substitute/Shadow Ball/Focus Blast/Focus Punch/Thunderbolt/HP Fire/HP Ice, Salamence can't run Dragon Dance/Outrage/Draco Meteor/Fire Blast/Earthquake/Brick Break/Dragon Claw. I ask you this: which four moves make the broken Salamence set? If there is no way of making a broken set with just four moves, then remind me why most of us are considering Salamence to be a suspect under the offensive characteristic.
 
For a long time, I had pretty much accepted that Salamence was OU, mostly because it could be checked fairly well and it never became a suspect back in the Order of Operations era. However, I wasn't around back then, and I didn't really bother to look too deeply into the context in which OoO had been decided. Philip brought up a very good point in this thread's PR brother: Salamence didn't have the all-important Outrage back when OoO was decided. Additionally, it's not like Salamence's suspect status was something that only noobs really considered, like Blissey is. People in PR seem to be significantly for the testing of Salamence, and such a sentiment has been somewhat prominent before then, too. As such, I'm all for testing, but how do we go about doing this?

We could go directly to voting depending on how Round 3 turns out. I suppose we could consider everyone's Salamence SEXP in OU from the last few months and get voters that way. However, people may argue that this is not a proper test of Salamence because it wasn't tagged as a Suspect like the other OU suspects (more like the UU suspects).

Another way to test Salamence would be to do it like the Garchomp test. However, since then the UU policy movers have decided that removing a suspect from a metagame doesn't necessarily provide a good test for a suspect. Unlike the original "new UU" test, though, the Garchomp test required experience in both with-Garchomp and without-Garchomp metagames. Nonetheless, this brings up the issue of whether people would be voting Salamence Uber just because they prefer the new metagame. (You don't even need to look further than Garchomp's Stage 2 voting thread to see this phenomenon blatantly.)

The final way I can think of is similar to the first one. Just declare a suspect test for Salamence and collect SEXP from that period in OU. We could even start now. I'd wait until Round 3 is finished, though.

Considering the movement now to test Salamence, I have to wonder what Salamence being Uber would mean for all those Garchomp-for-OU fanatics who kept comparing Garchomp to Salamence.
 
I believe Salamence is Uber under the support or offensive characteristic(not sure which it would fall under). Like many people have already said, most of its "checks" are easily Pursuited or handled by Magnezone(besides ludicrous things like Expert Belt Registeel) and if Salamence forces you to send out your revenge killer or die(contrary to Scizor, who can be beaten by Zapdos, or Lucario, beaten by Gliscor) then that leaves your team open for a sweep by say, Gyarados(if Scarf Latias was your revenge killer). Not only this, but Salamence also has the right moves to pull off pure special or physical, or mixed, meaning your "check" may become utterly worthless(sure, you can revenge it with Latias but that isn't helping when it just one-shot your Gyarados and can come back in later). For me, it is annoying when I hear "LO + SR + CB Scizor's Bullet Punch OHKOs". Seriously? I am not questioning the presence of Stealth Rock, but rather pointing out that pokemon is not 1 v 1. A team based around a Salamence sweep can easily run something like Aerodactyl/Azelf with Taunt as their lead, prevent rocks, or if you don't have a ghost, spin them away. There is also the problem of Magnezone. Scizor HAS to Bullet Punch, neither U-turn or Superpower will help since Salamence resists them both, AND is faster, likely packing Fire Blast, resulting in a swift OHKO. This means Magnezone can come in 99% of the time, kill Scizor, and let Salamence sweep again. Salamence, although at 50%, still has plenty of health to sweep, as most teams only carry one pokemon that can stop Salamence. This forces players to use 2 pokemon just to revenge kill one pokemon, which is exactly what Garchomp did back in the day(and no, I'm not even saying Salamence is even close to Garchomp, but he is still arguably broken).
 
It's Salamence's versatility and unpredictability which deserves it a place in suspect testing. There is no single counter to it, and one misprediction can easily cost you the game.

Salamence's inability to be trapped by means of Magnezone, Dugtrio etc abilities contributes to the difficulty to take it down, as does its neutrality to pursuit. These factors allow it to be a hit and run pokemon early game, if wish support and a Rapid Spinner is present, and also a threatening late game sweeper.

Everything else has been covered by other people.
 
I find it significant that this is not the first time that this argument is risen, and although this is being discusse in PR I think that a good discussion may come out of this thread as long as you guys stay on topic. I'm posting just to say that we're focusing on Salamence, and we don't care whether Gengar, Magnezone or anything else fullfills any of the uber characteristics. I've already deleted some messages and as of now I'll infract people who go off-topic.

Also, just for your reference, this is the last thread, in order of time, on the "suspect-Salamence" matter.
 
I'm often amazed when I use mence at how capable it is of rampaging through teams with a +1 outrage, KOing 2-3 pokes before confusion damage eventually faints it. The ability to carry flamethrower and earthquake in addition to dragon attacks offers counters to even the most reliable switch ins. I feel that mixmence plus DDmence make it too versatile to counter effectively with just 1 poke, and also that OU would simply be better off without it(and latias). Every team needs a bulky water/steel type to counter mence, and there's no guarnatee that it will counter it because a 'reliable' switch in like highly defensive swamperts are still at the mercy of dracometeors from a mixed set.
 
Saying Salamence should remain OU because Stealth Rock whittles it down is like saying Lugia, Rayquaza, or most notably Ho-Oh should be OU for that same reason.
 
Here are my two cents: In EVERY single battle I've used ANY mence set in (Mixmence, DDmence, Physically Bulky), I have never killed just 1 pokemon: usually 2 or 3, and sometimes even sweeping, except for rare occasions called PORYGON2.
 
What I find funny here is that the anti-testers are so up in arms about a test being taken that, if they truly had confidence in their point of view being correct, they should support as it would confirm their arguments. If those of you who think Salamence is OU truly believe he isn't uber, then you should have no objection to him being put into a suspect test. It's not like there are any other Pokemon who need it more (except maybe Scizor). I say, do the suspect test, and we can find out whether Salamence is uber or not.

Jeez, it's like a suspect test instantly equals Uberpromotion.
 
I all encourage you to read the following post: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1704027&postcount=53

Currently as it stands, Salamence is ranked #2 for Novembers statistics, and is used nearly 10% less than Scizor. This, to me at least, indicates that there currently is not really a need for concern. As we saw with Garchomp in its times of use, even after establishing itself as #1 consecutively on the shoddy rankings for months, it's use continued to increase, even after the infamous Yache Berry set became omnipresent, and nearly the only set used. The idea we are considering Salamence for suspect testing when; it's use is not #1 on the rankings; is not increasing steadily in use, and thus is not indicating an impending problem; has a varied movepool that allows it to bend and move with the changes of the meta, doesn't really sit well with me. I'm not going to argue that some fellow posters here don't have valid arguments, but clearly the statistics have yet to prove Salamence a problem.
 
I all encourage you to read the following post: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1704027&postcount=53

Currently as it stands, Salamence is ranked #2 for Novembers statistics, and is used nearly 10% less than Scizor. This, to me at least, indicates that there currently is not really a need for concern. As we saw with Garchomp in its times of use, even after establishing itself as #1 consecutively on the shoddy rankings for months, it's use continued to increase, even after the infamous Yache Berry set became omnipresent, and nearly the only set used. The idea we are considering Salamence for suspect testing when; it's use is not #1 on the rankings; is not increasing steadily in use, and thus is not indicating an impending problem; has a varied movepool that allows it to bend and move with the changes of the meta, doesn't really sit well with me. I'm not going to argue that some fellow posters here don't have valid arguments, but clearly the statistics have yet to prove Salamence a problem.

As someone previously stated, usage is not directly relative to a pokemon's "uberness". We did not ban Garchomp because it was #1 on the ladder, nor should we neglect Salamence simply because it is #2.
 
As someone previously stated, usage is not directly relative to a pokemon's "uberness". We did not ban Garchomp because it was #1 on the ladder, nor should we neglect Salamence simply because it is #2.

You're missing the point I addressed. I am not suggesting we banned Garchomp due to his rank on shoddy, but that Garchomps rank on shoddy was as such because of the characteristics that made him Uber.

If Salamence were a problem, clearly he would be dominating the statistics the way Garchomp did. If you feel the need to explain to me the fallacy of that argument, then I encourage you to do so.

Usage is a sometimes a bad indicator. One of the big reasons would be because Scizor is rank #1 (quite firmly, too), which means that Salamence is going to be used less because people are arguably overpreparing for it as a threat.

I wouldn't count using a clearly dominate OU force on your standard team that happens to check Salamence as "overpreparing".
 
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