Saying that Salamence and Garchomp are so fundamentally similar as to be nigh indistinguishable is absurd. Even saying that they fit the same role is a stretch. There have already been pages of arguments on this thread which reference the differences between Mence and Chomp - speed, bulk, typing, and ability being the most glaring of the contrasts - differences which go beyond their somewhat similar stat spreads. Those arguments have yet to be undermined, so far as I can tell.
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Salamence - The Face of The Next Suspect, or Merely OU's Strongest Dragon?
- Thread starter IcyMan28
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Saying that Salamence and Garchomp are so fundamentally similar as to be nigh indistinguishable is absurd. Even saying that they fit the same role is a stretch. There have already been pages of arguments on this thread which reference the differences between Mence and Chomp - speed, bulk, typing, and ability being the most glaring of the contrasts - differences which go beyond their somewhat similar stat spreads. Those arguments have yet to be undermined, so far as I can tell.
Didn't tangerine chastise anyone for using that argument back in the Suspect Test thread when everyone was arguing over Garchomp?
I don't think you can compare pokemon. You can only look at that one Pokemon and see what it can do.
While on this topic, I don't think Salamence is uber.
Can it support other Pokemon with the chance of sweeping. Maybe, but there are plenty of other Pokemon that can allow other Pokemon to sweep.
Latias can help Lucario to sweep by taking out nasty bulky ground type pokemon. Vaporeon can decimate Dragon Pokemon hindering Kingdra's chance at sweeping. Roserade lays down toxic spikes which assist Empoleon. The list goes on and on and on.
Is Da 'Mence deffensive? Oh sure, there are several deffensive sets on the analysis, but our dragon friend (or fiend) isn't getting any deffensive awards for having the uncanny trait of being conked out by Scizor's Bullet Punch.
Is Salamence offensive? SURE!!! Just as offensive as any other sweeper with a boost under it's wing *cough* Lucario *cough* Gyardos *cough cough* Latias *cough*. Mixmence... Well it might break the clause, but once again- Salamence has the survivability of money in the hands of a homeless person wanting a cigarette. A well played Scizor attack or something with ice beam can easily remove Salamence from play.
Jirachi, Blissey, and Scizor, are just some examples that can switch in and do shit. There are more too! (Brick Break can only 2HKO Blissey.)
Also, once you know its a Mixmence it is usually very predictable. I mean geeze, nobody had a problem with Mence before. Why do you guys care now? Is it because some respected member posted calcs? Calcs from any of OU's best Physical Sweepers look no less threatening. The idea of counters is very vague, as not much can switch in if you set up some DDs or a SD. Mixape is also a wallbreaker, as is Kingdra when use with RD. Should they be banned because not much can switch in? No the answer is simply no. Dragon is also unresisted, but barely hits any shit for SE tbh. Alot of OU pokemon have exceedingly good coverage as well, so the coverage game shouldn't be played.
Pre Plat, Mence had far less checks but no Outrage. Now he has Outrage, and more ways to stop him. Something just seems very wrong here tbh. Smogon is just a banhappy place. *facepalms*
I can say I got raped by Outrage, but I can also say I won many a game from them being locked into Outrage. It is very easy to revenge, and you can set up with shit like Skarmory and SD Scizor. (Yes SD Scizor FTW!)
Without Mence the metagame would be unbalanced, do you really want to lose your best check to stall? Stall would be alot harder to deal with, I seriously don't see why you guys are whining about Mence. =)
Indigo's use of "pro-uber" and "anti-uber" is pretty inaccurate. What this thread is is the discussion of whether Salamence should be a SUSPECT. Here is what the actual burden of proof is:
Pro-suspect: Salamence is powerful enough that it should be tested for uberdom. It is reliably hard to deal with without losing multiple Pokemon in return, or brings a harmful amount of luck into the metagame.
Anti-suspect: Salamence is weak enough that it doesn't need to be tested. It can reliably be dealt with without losing multiple Pokemon in return and does not introduce a harmful amount of luck into the metagame.
The strength thing is pretty obvious: can Salamence reliably (over 50% of games) be set up to sweep a team? If so, a well-built Salamence team is going to almost automatically win over half of its games- unless it faces another Salamence team. That's a pretty clear indicator of uberness. The second part is less obvious. If Salamence has a wide enough movepool that it is nearly impossible to correctly predict what it can and will do, it turns a large portion of the game into a crapshoot. Should you bring in your Sharder to counter the DD, or is it going to EQ or DM? Should you bring in your steel-type to tank the Outrage or DM, or will it EQ or Blast? That kind of randomness is what made Mew an uber (unlimited movepool and good-not great-stats? Sign me on!), and may very well consign Salamence to the banlist tier.
Pro-suspect: Salamence is powerful enough that it should be tested for uberdom. It is reliably hard to deal with without losing multiple Pokemon in return, or brings a harmful amount of luck into the metagame.
Anti-suspect: Salamence is weak enough that it doesn't need to be tested. It can reliably be dealt with without losing multiple Pokemon in return and does not introduce a harmful amount of luck into the metagame.
The strength thing is pretty obvious: can Salamence reliably (over 50% of games) be set up to sweep a team? If so, a well-built Salamence team is going to almost automatically win over half of its games- unless it faces another Salamence team. That's a pretty clear indicator of uberness. The second part is less obvious. If Salamence has a wide enough movepool that it is nearly impossible to correctly predict what it can and will do, it turns a large portion of the game into a crapshoot. Should you bring in your Sharder to counter the DD, or is it going to EQ or DM? Should you bring in your steel-type to tank the Outrage or DM, or will it EQ or Blast? That kind of randomness is what made Mew an uber (unlimited movepool and good-not great-stats? Sign me on!), and may very well consign Salamence to the banlist tier.
Ok, just send in Scarf Jirachi as it Draco Meteor's, or decides to DD on the switch. Look its not impossible! Example 1 out of the wide OU tier. Open your mind! :D
Look at my previous arguments before posting, Mence does NOT overcentralize the metagame seriously. It is not Garchomp.
Also, to anyone who wants to post calcs about Mence, I can just as easily get some Bellyzard calcs showing it can pull a near OHKO on Swampert with Fire Punch, a guaranteed KO with some spikes and/or SR, some Shuca Lucario calcs, showing it can beat all of standard SD Lucario's typical counters... etc. /sarcasm
Calcs do not mean anything tbh.
I didn't mean for the argument about whether it should be tested; I meant if a test was considered necessary, those would be the requisite effective arguments to prove using the testing period.
Again, I didn't mean to imply that the arguments hadn't been raised/countered/uncountered in the thread so far, simply that that is what each party would need to argue/counter.
At the very minimum, about 7 times out of ten, I stop just short of laughing when my opponent pulls out Salamence. It's that easy to beat if you play the game against it correctly.
Just my two cents here: Salamence deserves a Suspect Test but he will almost certainly be voted OU.
Though he is a beast, no pokemon is without checks, and Salamence has a wide variety of checks, though he has become one of the glorified pokemon without a hard counter. Salamence is beat by playing around it and entry hazards. On every one of my stall teams I have to make sure I have an answer to MixMence and DDMence. On aggressive teams, the ability to answer Salamence's rampages comes from Scizor Bullet Punches or Lucario Extremespeeds or any Ice Shard. These teams do not have to adjust their playstyle to find an answer to Salamence. Stall teams are most threatened by Salamence, in my opinion, especially late-game when your pokemon are possibly strong but not at 100%.
Once we get done testing the "relevant" suspects, Salamence deserves a shot at the Suspect process. If he is truly OU then he will stay there. People who have so aggressively stated their opinions against a suspect test should realize this. It is a test. It is not certain he will be voted Uber. In fact, I believe the opposite will happen. I think the results from a suspect test would be in OU's favor. If he were voted Uber, it would be by a very small margin.
Garchomp has far too often been compared to Salamence. Garchomp had the +2 Earthquake and Outrage/Dragon Claw to go off of, with no Stealth Rock weakness, a fantastic ability, more bulk than Swampert, and speed that edged out many would-be counters. Garchomp required you to go out of your way and find a check. Salamence, as I have noted, does not require this most of the time. Salamence is not in the same league as Garchomp. However, he is powerful enough to warrant a suspect test when we get done testing the pokemon that are more "relevant."
Though he is a beast, no pokemon is without checks, and Salamence has a wide variety of checks, though he has become one of the glorified pokemon without a hard counter. Salamence is beat by playing around it and entry hazards. On every one of my stall teams I have to make sure I have an answer to MixMence and DDMence. On aggressive teams, the ability to answer Salamence's rampages comes from Scizor Bullet Punches or Lucario Extremespeeds or any Ice Shard. These teams do not have to adjust their playstyle to find an answer to Salamence. Stall teams are most threatened by Salamence, in my opinion, especially late-game when your pokemon are possibly strong but not at 100%.
Once we get done testing the "relevant" suspects, Salamence deserves a shot at the Suspect process. If he is truly OU then he will stay there. People who have so aggressively stated their opinions against a suspect test should realize this. It is a test. It is not certain he will be voted Uber. In fact, I believe the opposite will happen. I think the results from a suspect test would be in OU's favor. If he were voted Uber, it would be by a very small margin.
Garchomp has far too often been compared to Salamence. Garchomp had the +2 Earthquake and Outrage/Dragon Claw to go off of, with no Stealth Rock weakness, a fantastic ability, more bulk than Swampert, and speed that edged out many would-be counters. Garchomp required you to go out of your way and find a check. Salamence, as I have noted, does not require this most of the time. Salamence is not in the same league as Garchomp. However, he is powerful enough to warrant a suspect test when we get done testing the pokemon that are more "relevant."
Also, Garchomp had a better ability: Salamence's Intimidate is his own undoing against Porygon2, but Garchomp simply profits from a Sandstorm.
Salamence ups his attack more slowly, and so a swift Ice Shard or a bulky pokemon using Ice Beam will devastate Salamence. Salamence is sufficiently counterable that a Suspect Test would likely return an OU. Of course, in a Suspect Test, almost everyone will use Salamence, and thus also his counters, and his true power will be measured. Shall I forecast that, if a Suspect Test occurs, Salamence, Weavile, Porygon2, and any Mence counter/check will rise quikly in use?
I would agree that Salamence deserves a suspect test. He is capable of sweeping through many of the teams in the metagame. It takes more than a little effort though. If you take the omnipresent stealth rock and combine it with Mence's most common item, life orb, you have a dead mence after two turns with Scizor running around. With all the other steel types running around Mence is not just gonna plow through any well built teams.
Thats just my two cents though.
Thats just my two cents though.
Then you have an amazing 50% chance of defeating it, due to the speed tie. Amazing.
Don't forget the SR calcs on Charizard.
Once you know the set, Mence isn't that hard at all to check/and or counter at all. Jolly Jirachi helps against most Mence assuming they get a speed boost as well, by any means. If it be a Dragon Dance, or a Choice Scarf. =\
Cresselia is almost a foolproof counter, although the popularity is diminshed through Sandstorm. Just open your mind, just because Mence is versitile and unpredictable doesn't mean it should be uber. By that logic, Infernape, Celebi, Metagross, Lucario, Jirachi, and Dragonite, should be uber for gods sake. Just because a pokemon is versitile, doesn't mean it should be uber.
Also, I was merely posting some gimmicky examples to be honest with you. It was to prove a point that posting a bunch of threatening calcs do not mean a single thing.
Just something to consider:
If Salamence is Uber, it must be because of a combination of statements that, when put together, only describe Salamence and maybe any other Ubers. Otherwise, if your statements describe another non-Uber pokemon, you must then argue why that pokemon is Uber, or else your argument has a logical inconsistency.
If Salamence is Uber, it must be because of a combination of statements that, when put together, only describe Salamence and maybe any other Ubers. Otherwise, if your statements describe another non-Uber pokemon, you must then argue why that pokemon is Uber, or else your argument has a logical inconsistency.
Statistics show that Naive is more used than Naughty. And is more efficient anyway. Mence doesn't lose any important KO by using Naive instead of Naughty.
Also, if a SR weak and the vulnerability to Scizor's Bullet Punch were enough to make Salamence so obviously OU that it couldn't be tested, then Rayquaza couldn't be an obvious Uber. Quaza is weak to SR too, it's sets are almost identical to Mence's and with only 10 more base HP and Def, Quaza takes in average from Max Atk CB Bullet Punch just 9% less than Mence, which is less than one turn of Life Orb recoil. (And Quaza is even slower)
I think Mence deserves at least a test. And to make things clear, my opinion is that the DDance set alone makes Mence a deserver of the test. The mentality of "it doesn't need a true counter if it has viable checks" should only be true to wallbreakers like MixMence or Nape/Luke/Jirachi before you know the set, because if you can't counter it/get outplayed, you lose a pokémon, not the game. A sweeper like DDMence is a lot different. You lose the 'guess war', you lose the game, because you have only one chance to make it right.
Also, if a SR weak and the vulnerability to Scizor's Bullet Punch were enough to make Salamence so obviously OU that it couldn't be tested, then Rayquaza couldn't be an obvious Uber. Quaza is weak to SR too, it's sets are almost identical to Mence's and with only 10 more base HP and Def, Quaza takes in average from Max Atk CB Bullet Punch just 9% less than Mence, which is less than one turn of Life Orb recoil. (And Quaza is even slower)
I think Mence deserves at least a test. And to make things clear, my opinion is that the DDance set alone makes Mence a deserver of the test. The mentality of "it doesn't need a true counter if it has viable checks" should only be true to wallbreakers like MixMence or Nape/Luke/Jirachi before you know the set, because if you can't counter it/get outplayed, you lose a pokémon, not the game. A sweeper like DDMence is a lot different. You lose the 'guess war', you lose the game, because you have only one chance to make it right.
A defensive-minded Vaporeon walks in and takes 33% from the first Draco Meteor, virtually nothing from Fire Blast, and walls Brick Break effectively. Following that with an ice beam seals the deal, but generally the thing runs before it gets that far. You also mentioned Cresselia, who's another that can wall it fairly effectively (bar the rare Crunch). Suicune is also relatively capable of handling itself, though not as well as Vaporeon since its best self recovery is Rest. This all considers the presence of SR on your side of the field.Joel said:
Outside of those mentioned, though, he really is a titan that forces holes or sacrifices on the enemy's team no matter what. In general, I agree, I find myself having to revenge kill it with an ice shard user in order to deal with it.
I definitely agree with this statement. The DDMence is usually the one I fear more, since once it gets up - bar priority revenge kills - it will defeat a team. It really only needs one turn good prediction to rip a hole in teams (if not break the whole team).Sebastian said:
That hasn't been an argument from me or other non-Uber supporters, or at least I can't find it in our posts. Rayquaza outshines Mence in the Offensive Characteristic. I don't know where you pulled that from in the last few pages (unless I missed a post).
I agree a test would solidify the whole thing, but I disagree with the rest.
Why should it only be true to wallbreakers? You lose one Pokemon that may cost you the game; you have no idea how pivotal any one Pokemon on any one team may be. You don't guess with DDMence either. If you don't have a way to play around DDMence your team was already not very well built, as you're struggling against two Pokemon in the metagame already, which make up for just about 28% of the metagame alone.
And who is to say you only have one chance to make a prediction correctly? That's absurd. You can't have two strategies to deal with a Pokemon? You can't have ways to deal with it? Infernape is a guessing game. You don't know what move it might use. You might switch in Vaporeon thinking you can take a Grass Knot to meet Close Combat. You just cost your Vaporeon half of it's HP and it can be 2HKOd now. You might switch in Heatran to absorb a Fire Blast but meet an untimely Close Combat. You can apply the "If you mispredict it can cost you the game" argument to any Pokemon, not just Salamence. Salamence may cost you just one Pokemon, not the game. It won't cost you the game every match. To assume so is ridiculous, as you're assuming that every team packs one, shaky (shaky due to the fact you say you may mispredict and cost the game) way to deal with Salamence.
Did you see Rayquaza's base stats? He has alot of power over Mence. He also have Swords Dance, Extreme Speed, and a broken ability in Weather Lock, which shuts down his sand weakness. This would single handedly kill weather teams. He also has Thunderbolt, which is just a perk for Bulky Waters. There is plenty of other reasons why he is uber, but t;dr he is much more powerful than Mence and has some very key differences.
You losing the guess war could be used with any pokemon to be honest, just like Pokenerd said. Thanks Pokenerd. :)
It's simple. You lose your Scizor somehow (switching on Mence's unpredicted Fire Blast), and then if Mence get's a DDance under it's belt, you lose the game, because it OHKOes everything in the top 20 and nothing but ScarfLatias is faster, viable and capable of revenge killing it.
You talk about Nape, but if Nape CCs your Heatran, you just send a random water-type, a random dragon-type or a random scarfer. You can't send stuff not named Scizor or ScarfLatias to revenge DDMence after the DDance. That's the difference.
And Rayquaza's higher offensive powers change nothing in the fact that it can be revenge killed using the same techniques sugested to deal with Mence.
You talk about Nape, but if Nape CCs your Heatran, you just send a random water-type, a random dragon-type or a random scarfer. You can't send stuff not named Scizor or ScarfLatias to revenge DDMence after the DDance. That's the difference.
And Rayquaza's higher offensive powers change nothing in the fact that it can be revenge killed using the same techniques sugested to deal with Mence.
Scarf Gengar, Scarf Starmie, Scarf Jirachi (though speed tie hurts), Scarf anything with more than base 100 speed, Bronzong, Cresselia, Vaporeon, Suicune, and anything that can take a hit and hit back with a powerful enough neutral STAB or super effective hit (provided that it's not weak to Dragon or 4x weak to any of Salamence's non-STAB moves).
That is misprediction, you can lose to any sweeper because of that. Preserve your checks. There is a WIDE OU tier, look through it and find your checks. I am sure we all have a revenge killer. I run Scarfed Gengar sometimes, and I LOVE it. Scarfed Zapdos works, Scarfed Ape works, Scarfed Starmie works, Scarfed Azelf works, and yes even if its not OU Scarfed Alakazam can work. Weavile works, Mamoswine works, and the list can simply go on. Bulky Rest Talk Rotom can take a hit, and Will o Wisp you. Its so simple really.
No, Rayquaza cannot be revenged nearly as easily. Extreme Speed can 2HKO any of OU's Sweepers, and can OHKO any of them with a Swords Dance. Assuming you run a Life Orb.
With most OU sweepers, you barely have any chances, you must stop it right away or you are boned.
Edit: Thanks for posting some bulky checks for me Objection, I forgot them at the moment. Simply put, Outrage makes Mence extremely easy to revenge its insane.
Not to mention Weavile, Donphan, and Mamoswine can revenge with Ice Shard, and Pory2 can do its thing to stop DDmence as well.
Yes, I forgot Donphan and Porygon 2. Thanks much, and I hope people will finally realize that this is all so ridiculous.
I'm surprised I forgot the Ice Sharders, especially since I once used one to revenge kill a +6 Salamence. Now, if I can play badly enough to let a Salamence get 6 DDs and still effortlessly revenge it ...
Of course, that's not to say that Salamence isn't Uber. This only disproves the idea that Salamence is hard to revenge kill.
Of course, that's not to say that Salamence isn't Uber. This only disproves the idea that Salamence is hard to revenge kill.
Somehow? Somehow?! So this argument is totally reliant on a stupid decision to bring in CB Scizor (Who is a revenge killer, and shouldn't be brought in on Salamence unless you KNOW he's not gonna use Fire Blast) on Salamence? One of my pet peaves when ANYONE is arguing why a pokemon is broken is when they use a PERFECT situation where everything is on your opponent's side. Your opponent has PERFECT prediction. Once again, the only time you should bring in Scizor is when Salamence is locked in outrage or has killed one of your Pokemon. Look- Any Setup sweeper is Devastating with the proper boost. If they get a setup, that means they played their game right and removed your checks and you didn't play your game right. You can equally argue something as devastating as SD Luke is broken, because all it needs is one swords dance, and it can rip through. Provided you removed their Rotom-H, Heatran, Scarftar, Bulky Metagross, or Gyrados Somehow, Nothing can stop Lucario, because he can also hit frail faster opponents with Extremespeed.
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