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Salamence vs. Dragonite...

Anyway, to further the differences between Salamence and Dragonite, note this topic:

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38444

Due to the lack of Intimidate, Dragonite actually is less useful running a bulky set than Salamence. So much for those stat advantages!

As for you, Umbarsc, 110 Base Special Attack is clearly a huge advantage over 100 special attack. 350 / 328 = 7%, which actually gives OHKOes over such Pokemon as Careful Hippowdon and Swampert. Of course, I am assuming that Dragonite will run +nature, which at 259 Speed, it can't really afford to do. At +Speed and neutral Special Attakc, it only has 299, and 350 / 299 = 17% more power on Mence's end (because Mence can easily run a +SpA nature). Try getting some experience before you try and snap at me, kid.

Also, Technician Top is arguably one of the best revenge killers in UU, and that team is currently the number 1 viewed team on Smogon...And you're comparing that to Scarf Dragonite? Spare me. I also need to seriously question your experience in UU if you are actually knocking against TechTop...why are you even posting in that argument thread with such limited knowledge?
 
Aldaron said:
[SET]
name: S. Bulky DD Mence
move 1: Dragon Dance
move 2: Roost
move 3: Dragon Claw / Dragon Rush
move 4: Earthquake
item: Life Orb / Leftovers
nature: Adamant
evs: 224 HP / 216 SpD / 68 Spe
[SET COMMENTS]
<p>This version is specially bulky Salamence, and its purpose is to defeat those Water Pokemon that switch in to counter it. The magic number that most non-STAB Ice Beam users reach is 269, to always OHKO Garchomp. This set has EVs to always survive with enough HP to use Life Orb after one of those 269 SpA Ice Beams.</p>
Click to expand...
I'm just curious to see why Dragonite wouldn't pull this set off better. With more base HP and SpDef, it really looks like Salamence gets outperformed. Can you clarify perhaps?
 
The Speed, it's all about the Speed. O, that set's EVs have been slightly updated (I can't edit the topic since it was locked).

Salamence (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 172 HP/4 Atk/80 Spd/252 SDef
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Earthquake
- Dragon Claw
- Dragon Dance
- Roost
---
Dragonite (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 204 HP/212 Spd/92 SDef
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Roost
- Dragon Dance
- Dragon Claw
- Earthquake
---

That Salamence set is the current version I use. Remember, while being a special wall, the set still needs to be effective on the offensive side, note the adamant nature and speed investment.

256 Speed is pretty much the absolute minimum I would require on a Dragon Dance set, to always outspeed the Pokemon that reach 383 or lower (Weavile without Ice Shard (common on Band versions), Modest ScarfHeatran). Not only that, but with the introduction of Deoxys-S, 256 Speed also lets you outspeed it after 2 Dragon Dances, relevant because Deoxys-S will rarely switch into you.

You'll notice the equivalent Dragonite set has lower stats due to its bad Speed. You could test an ultra special bulky Dragonite, but again, without Speed and without some emphasis on Attack, you're really centralizing it too much.
 
Ok thanks for clarifying. It just looked like the Salamence set was made more for Special Walling than sweeping so I as curious as to the choice of Salamence. Speed really just kills Dragonite in nearly every situation, but for some reason I still use it. ;)
 
Aldaron said:
As for you, Umbarsc, 110 Base Special Attack is clearly a huge advantage over 100 special attack. 350 / 328 = 7%, which actually gives OHKOes over such Pokemon as Careful Hippowdon and Swampert. Of course, I am assuming that Dragonite will run +nature, which at 259 Speed, it can't really afford to do. At +Speed and neutral Special Attakc, it only has 299, and 350 / 299 = 17% more power on Mence's end (because Mence can easily run a +SpA nature). Try getting some experience before you try and snap at me, kid.
Click to expand...

That's exactly my point. Yes, I know Salamence's special attack is superior, but it's not extremely important. Saying that Salamence is OHKOing almost everything and Dragonite isn't is a great exaggeration, especially when you gain the ability to 2HKO Blissey, something Specsmence can dream of. In exchange you get the ability to OHKO Swampert, which isn't terribly important.

Also, "Try getting some experience before you try and snap at me, kid" is very borderline hostility. It's just a discussion about Pokemon. ;)

Also, Technician Top is arguably one of the best revenge killers in UU, and that team is currently the number 1 viewed team on Smogon...And you're comparing that to Scarf Dragonite? Spare me. I also need to seriously question your experience in UU if you are actually knocking against TechTop...why are you even posting in that argument thread with such limited knowledge?
Click to expand...

I'm aware of Technician Top, and have used it myself in UU. Now let me turn the tables; have you used Scarf Dragonite?
 
Salamence in terms of sheer power, speed, and record is better. However, Dragonite is much more versatile and if you're going by unpredictability, he/she will win. Of course, Dragonite also has Heal Bell which has him win my vote ^^
 
What does Salamence have over Dragonite? Two things: Intimidate and higher speed.

It doesn't matter if Dragonite gets up a DD, because without Jolly Nature it can't outrun anything, and with Jolly Nature, it's power is lackluster. Salamence can afford to run max attack and Adamant, a nice 270, 285 or 290 speed, and still have some leftover for HP.

Intimidate allows Salamence to switch into dangerous attackers more easily, even Heracross sometimes. CB cross's Close Combat can 2HKO Dragonite with Stealth Rock up, while Salamence could roost off this damage. Even if it switches into Stone Edge accidentally, it does 90% max.

Fun fact:

Adamant Salamence has 405 attack and 299 speed.
Jolly Dragonite has only 367 attack and 284 speed.

That's what I would call outclassed.
 
Using the numbers that skiddle posted, here are two calcs against a 252 Def Bold Celebi:
Salamence Dragon Claw: 106-126 damage
Dragonite Outrage: 144 - 171 damage
While Dragonite is still obviously slower and thus severely outclassed in that aspect, the difference in attack is moot because Outrage clearly does more damage.
 
I'm sorry Umbarsc, I have a habit of being excessively hostile because it is Pokemon, lol. Reversed but true.

Anyway I have tried it, in fact I was formerly an advocate of it, before everyone discovered the ridiculous power that is YacheChomp and started overloading the metagame with Scarfed HP Ices and Ice Beams like no other, making Scarf Outrage more of hindrance than help.

I never tried Thunderbolt on it though, and I guess it could conceivably be an interesting Gyarados check.
 
As said so many times, salamence and dragonite aren't really "superior" to each other since they do different things. Dragonite is the better Dragon Dancer and Choice Bander. Period. Salamence makes better use of the Item Life Orb, and can run many bulky sets quite well thanks to intimidate. Also the superior Choice Specs user. It depends on what you are using them for.

Salamence (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 172 HP/4 Atk/80 Spd/252 SDef
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Earthquake
- Dragon Claw
- Dragon Dance
- Roost

Dragonite @ Lum Berry
Ability: Inner Focus
Nature: Adamant
EVs: 252 HP / 68 Atk / 196 Spe (I think that was the spread)
- Outrage
- Dragon Dance
- Roost
- Light Screen

^^^^ Dragonite actually does the specially defensive thing better, I've used both.
 
OK, enter theorymon. I am theorymoning (seriously now, I'm not trying to be petty because you actually got me interested in that set, Raikou) that the Dragonite set you just posted is not effective.

Can you give me some logs that you might have so I can see it in action?

I certainly see how it is supposed to work, but I can't see it actually working =/
 
travisurfer said:
Using the numbers that skiddle posted, here are two calcs against a 252 Def Bold Celebi:
Salamence Dragon Claw: 106-126 damage
Dragonite Outrage: 144 - 171 damage
While Dragonite is still obviously slower and thus severely outclassed in that aspect, the difference in attack is moot because Outrage clearly does more damage.
Click to expand...

Outrage is both a dragon's strongest weapon and it's greatest weakness. If Dragonite uses Outrage, it's all or nothing. He's either going to have to sweep the entire remaining team (hard with all the revenge killers and steels) or get killed because he's trapped against an opponent he cannot defeat. Salamence can wreak havoc until something dangerous comes up. Then he can switch out. Also, Salamence can switch moves after using his Dragon attack, while Dragonite cannot. And it's ridiculous to suggest using both Outrage and Dragon Claw on the same DD set.


If you are going to argue that Dragonite will likely be using Outrage for a late game sweep, and will only attempt an Outrage sweep after all the threats are defeated, you could also argue that Salamence could OHKO the remaining team as well if it holds a Life Orb. If Dragonite uses a Life Orb, it risks confusion, or lacks Yache Berry.


PS: I couldn't help but notice that neither of those calcs are 2HKOing Celebi, so while Salamence could run away, Dragonite is going to get Thunderwaved or HP Iced by Celebi.
 
Pyong said:
With dragon claw, you don't stand a chance of OHKO starmie if you don't wield a life orb, you can't 2HKO swampert(ice beam is a 2HKO)...i think you got the point.
Lum berry isn't the only option. Yachenite works like yachechomp(try to stop a +2 atk +2 speed dragonite)
Click to expand...

This is responding to others who responded to my post too, but to continue on my point-- why would you go to starmie/swamp/Hippo/etc. when can go to Bronzong/Steel type?

Especially for 2 reasons:
-People KNOW that the only thing DD Dragonite can do that Salamence can't is Outrage. They can totally see it coming, so more often than not a smart opponent will be switching in easily into the oncoming outrage.

-Starmie/Swamp/whoever is not going to be staying around to take the 2nd outrage. Metagross/Jirachi/BRONZONG will be coming in to lol at you stuck in your move.

You might be asking: How is this any different from the same problem Choice Chomp faces? The answer is that if Dragonite bites the dust because it got stuck on outrage, it wasted that whole turn of DDing. Turns not spent attacking in pokemon are big investments, and if I'm going to go through the trouble of setting up, I better be very certain that I can get a lot of profit from it. Or at least have a decent 2nd plan (RUNNING AWAY with Salamence after it kills a poke with Claw and Mamoswine comes in).

Another way to put it is that the whole point of a DD Dragon (mence or nite) over Choice Garchomp, is that you can get the power and speed without losing the ability to switch moves. If you go with Outrage, you are essentially missing the whole point, no? Someone else mentioned that ScarfChomp doesn't have a lot of power for late game sweep, but my question would be this: Who cares? If you're talking about early game v. Steel types, your screwed either way. If you're talking about late game (when pretty much everything is usually hurting pretty bad anyway), the difference in power between ScarfChomp v. DD Mence v. DD Nite seems more and more negligible.

DD Mence: A Mid-Early Game Sweeper whose power and capacity to switch between attacks can break through walls and get you over the hump of your oppnents defenses to make the late game sweep easier. With Intimidate, the ability to switch on and off its stab, and the threat of a set-up sweep or simply a straight out attack from high offensive AND speed stats, it fills this role terrifically.

Scarf Chomp: A Late-Game Sweeper who, while it does get stuck into its Outrage, doesn't have to worry about this as much as its opponents will already be weakened (and hopefully, the enemy steel type is already gone). Has the speed and enough power to fullfill this strategy well. In the early game, it can always attack with earthquake (wow! It has a 2nd stab attack!) if it doesn't want to get trapped.

DD Dragonite: If it tries to fulfill the same role as Salamence, it fails. No intimidate and no threat of a non-dance sweep because of its only average speed mean that without Outrage, it largely outclassed by Salamence. If it does use Outrage, it will be having issues with steel types, and even not being able to escape from a revenge-killing Ice Shard. In other words, unlike Garchomp it doesn't have a go-to stab move for the early game that doesn't trap it.

If it tries to fulfill the same role as scarf Garchomp as a late game sweeper, it could very well lose the opportunity to sweep as the opponent kills it on the turn it uses to set up.


What I'm getting at is that DD + Outrage, despite any numbers you can show me, is inherently a self-contradictory strategy lacking a great deal of consistency as to "what its role is" when compared to things like DD Mence or ScarfChomp.



IMO, if you are going to try to take advantage of Dragonite, you're going to need more than just DD + Outrage.
 
Scarfchomp is a Revenge killer therefore cannot be compared to dd mence or dd nite. On the special side, Mence certainly wins being faster with specs and having hydro pump. Dragonite gets F-punch for Blissey though.

However if you compared DD mence and nite, its a tough call. A mence with neutral nature and lifeorb doesn't need any sp.atk ev for fire blast to ohko standard skarm while dragonite is stuck at 90-106%. Using lifeorb on dragonite is kinda counter productive since it can survive some ice beams while mence survives none. So, Dragonite is stuck with fire punch while Mence has flamthrower or fire blast. Mence also ohkos forretress with fire blast and even flamethrower while fire punch's low base power allows it to live.

Lum berry seems to be the ideal item for DD dragonite since it retains its bulkiness and allows it to sweep better than Mence late game. I've tried Yache on both Mence and Dragonite and it seems that its not as good on them and better left for Garchomp.

Finally, DD Mence with lifeorb is a great sweeper and in my opinion superior to DD Nite(with lum). I'd much perfer both power and versatility over stamina on a sweeper.
 
travisurfer said:
Using the numbers that skiddle posted, here are two calcs against a 252 Def Bold Celebi:
Salamence Dragon Claw: 106-126 damage
Dragonite Outrage: 144 - 171 damage
While Dragonite is still obviously slower and thus severely outclassed in that aspect, the difference in attack is moot because Outrage clearly does more damage.
Click to expand...

Except that salamence can switch after a Dragon Claw and Dragonite can't, which means Dragonite gets to stay in and die to whatever counter has been sent in while salamence retreats.
 
skiddle said:
PS: I couldn't help but notice that neither of those calcs are 2HKOing Celebi, so while Salamence could run away, Dragonite is going to get Thunderwaved or HP Iced by Celebi.
Click to expand...
I just picked an arbitrary defensive threat and maxed it's HP and Def which is very unlikely to see on Celebi. On top of that, both calcs were done before a Dragon Dance and taking in item calculations. I just did them solely to show a difference in damage.

On the other hand, does anyone use DDnite for any other purpose besides a late game sweep?
 
Except that salamence can switch after a Dragon Claw and Dragonite can't, which means Dragonite gets to stay in and die to whatever counter has been sent in while salamence retreats.
Click to expand...

Another advantage of Salamence over DD Outrage Dragonite. He can switch moves to do more damage... and his 405 attack Dragon Claw still does 73% as much as Dragonite's Outrage, so it's not a huge power gap here.

Starmie/Swamp/whoever is not going to be staying around to take the 2nd outrage. Metagross/Jirachi/BRONZONG will be coming in to lol at you stuck in your move.
Click to expand...

Yeah... if you Outrage, you are going to get revenge killed. Every single team has a steel type thanks to Garchump, so sweeping with Outrage will be impossible unless they are dead first.



Also, EVERY SINGLE CELEBI has Max Defense, Max HP, Bold nature. Maybe a little bit of speed.
 
OK, fine. Every single team made by a semi-intelligent individual has a steel type on it. Unless you run a pure offensive team, and rely solely on revenge killing to defeat dragons.
 
I'd like to think I'm semi-intelligent, and the only Steel-type I've used in a long time is Jirachi, one withough Icy Wind or Ice Punch even. It's much easier to revenge-kill it once it's locked into Outrage. The only extremely commonly used Steel-type is Bronzong, who can only hurt Garchomp a little with Gyro Ball, not exactly an ideal revenge-killer.

Also, I take it you haven't checked the "Pokemon used by Expert Players" thread X-Act made. Check and see how many uses were made by Steel-typed Pokemon.
 
I use Jirachi a lot too... it doesn't have to have Ice Punch to beat Chomp, it's meant for absorbing those Outrages... then I usually spam Body Slam until it becomes paralyzed.
 
Bronzong doesn't need to kill Garchomps, it can use 3 moves instead of Gyro Ball: Hp Ice, Hypnosis, Explosion. HP Ice only 2HKO's though without a special attack boost. Explosion is helpful, but then again you did just lose one of your pokemon.

I'd have to say that considering that Garchomp has a 25% chance to appear on any team, not including one of the good steels is a move that leaves you at a disadvantage. You have nothing to absorb a Garchomp's Outrage. What's more, you're missing out on the ability to force other walls to switch out with your resistances to many types.

On Topic: I think that as a general Dragon sweeper, Salamence is better than Dragonite due to a higher speed that allows the marginally better special attack and the similar attack to be utilized better. However, if I was running a CB set, I would choose Dragonite instead. Between Outrage and Focus Punch, Dragonite beats Salamence on pure power. It also makes Dragonite much harder to switch into, as a mispredicted outrage on a Ghost or a Focus Punch on a Steel does hurt. Dragonite also has the option of Fire Punch. However, it doesn't 2HKO Skarmory without Stealth Rock, and even that is iffy. Of course, Dragonite can go with Fire Blast too.

Just my $.02.
 
In my opinion, it depends what your looking for. Salemance is my lead, because i can trust that its ability will give me an immediate upper hand in alot of situations, and it can hit harder. Dragonite is much more versitile, and has larger defences, which although are useful to some, aren't my cup of coffee.

In my opinion they are equal all round, but for the things i need, Salemance is my man.
 
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