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Katy

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Is Togekiss a usable defogger?
Togekiss could be a somewhat viable defogger, if you can fit it on your team and need a defogger badly. It can use it best on Heavy-Duty-Sets and even sometimes on Choice Scarf-versions. With Air Slash and Roost as the two other Moveoptions. But in general, Defog Togekiss struggles a bit to consistently use Defog especially on Scarfed-versions, as it rather likes to trick the Choice Scarf onto a wall like Blissey and Toxapex, furthermore Togekiss likes to have Flamethrower aswell to cripple Steel-types like Ferrothorn and Excadrill. To add onto that, Dazzling Gleam could be an interesting option aswell, to hit Dragapult, Hydreigon, and Urshifu (both). For the Heavy-Duty Boots-Set you rather want to run something like Heal Bell to function as a useable cleric. But if you are really desperate for a Defog-Option Togekiss can serve as such. However, I would say that Mandibuzz, Corviknight and Skarmory are currently much better Defoggers and it also faces competition from Mantine which thrives in usage.
 
Why is Hydreigon's usage so low? A lot of metagame trends seem to be in its favor, with mons that it can threaten like Amoongus, Tangrowth, Crawdaunt, non-Bug Buzz Volcarona, and Aegislash seeing increased usage. Its good Speed tier lets it revenge kill stuff like Urshifu, Rillaboom, and Kyurem too. Is it seeing low usage because of its competition with Urshifu? If this is the case what team comps does it fit on better than Urshifu?
 

ShootingStarmie

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Why is Hydreigon's usage so low? A lot of metagame trends seem to be in its favor, with mons that it can threaten like Amoongus, Tangrowth, Crawdaunt, non-Bug Buzz Volcarona, and Aegislash seeing increased usage. Its good Speed tier lets it revenge kill stuff like Urshifu, Rillaboom, and Kyurem too. Is it seeing low usage because of its competition with Urshifu? If this is the case what team comps does it fit on better than Urshifu?
First thing that comes to mind is Urshifu, both as a better wallbreaker, and as a strong presence that Hydreigon fears. Both variants of Urshifu I think deter the usage of Hydreigon. As a Dark-type I think you have to somewhat compete with the likes of Urshifu and Tyranitar, while as a Dragon-type you have to compete with Dragapult. Even ignoring its competition, the most popular Pokemon (Clefable and Dragapult) naturally have a great match up against it.

Despite all of this, I think Hydreigon is way more viable than it was last generation, where it even dropped down to UU. Maybe this clears up a few things for anyone wondering

:psywoke:
 
DLC is dropping around 9-10 days from now, so while it may seem premature to ask these questions, I believe it is a good time. How will the monthly cutoff look like for this month since we'll only have the DLC for around 8 days before shifts. Would it still be like last month or would there be some sort of adjustment? Also, has the council figured out how to handle quick ban and/or quick unbans yet? Again It seems like I'm asking too early but it doesn't hurt to be prepared or have some sort of early idea before we get there since before we know it the metagame will be turned upside down.
 

ShootingStarmie

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Best single slot mon for speed control?

Trying a bulky priority spam team that's probably really bad, with everything slower than drill
There are plenty of priority users that can take care of Excadrill if that's what you're after. Rillaboom's Grassy Glide, Azumarill's Aqua Jet, and Conkeldurr's Mach Punch all come to mind. If you don't want to use full priority, Dragapult and Zeraora are the fastest non boosted (no abilities / Scarf / boosts) Pokemon in the metagame and offer decent speed control in the meta due to the lack of Choice Scarf Pokemon. I actually built a very similar team (here) to what you have in mind, maybe it will give you some inspiration / ideas.

Best of luck! Hope this helped :smogduck:
 

Jordy

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Hey everyone! The council has been keeping track of the post-Dracovish metagame. Cinderace has proven to be a little more manageable, but we believe that both it and Dragapult are still worthy of a suspect test. Unfortunately, the current timing does not allow for that; we cannot underestimate the influence that the upcoming DLC may have, expanding the movepools of many existing Pokemon and releasing some new ones on top of that. Holding a suspect test when a potentially massive shakeup is so close is not something we are willing to do. You will hear more from us after the release of The Crown Tundra DLC!
 
I've been playing around with rain a bit and having two main issues- Toxapex and Rillaboom have been 6-0ing my team unless I play essentially perfectly. Is there any mons I can add to the core of Pelipper/ Kingdra/ Urshifu-R to make those matchups more consistent or is rain forced to a more gimmicky matchup based playstyle right now?

Ferrothorn works decently well making progress against Pex but most of the Rillaboom I've run into have been running Drain Punch.
 

Katy

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I've been playing around with rain a bit and having two main issues- Toxapex and Rillaboom have been 6-0ing my team unless I play essentially perfectly. Is there any mons I can add to the core of Pelipper/ Kingdra/ Urshifu-R to make those matchups more consistent or is rain forced to a more gimmicky matchup based playstyle right now?

Ferrothorn works decently well making progress against Pex but most of the Rillaboom I've run into have been running Drain Punch.
Hello,
you can run Kyurem on the rain-team as it can help to break past Toxapex, since they are physically defensive currently. Kyurem with Freeze-Dry does a huge chunk to Toxapex. Kingdra with a Choice Specs-boosted Hurricane should also be able to nail down Toxapex after hazards. Other options are Zeraora on rain-teams as it per se isnt bad on that archetype either and gives your team an electric-immunity as well. Zeraora helps with handling Toxapex and can give your team momentum via Volt Switch. A very niche but workable Option could be Volcarona, as it can help out vs. Rillaboom and it can help vs. Toxapex with a strong Psychic. It might seem weird putting Volcarona on such a team, but it can help to combat such problems for the rest of your team.
 
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Which pokemon will be legal in OU once DLC 2 drops? I recall reading something along the lines of "all mons that aren't cover legends" but I don't know whether that's true. Will any mons of the current banlist be unbanned? The list consists of Galarian Darmanitan, Kyurem Black, Melmetal, Magearna, and Cinderace, if I remember correctly.

What will be the council's policy on quickbans? For example, will we see small groups banned each week, if enough of them were broken? Or would the pattern be more random?
 

Finchinator

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Which pokemon will be legal in OU once DLC 2 drops? I recall reading something along the lines of "all mons that aren't cover legends" but I don't know whether that's true. Will any mons of the current banlist be unbanned? The list consists of Galarian Darmanitan, Kyurem Black, Melmetal, Magearna, and Cinderace, if I remember correctly.
I can confidently say that at least a few of those will be unbanned and a lot of Pokemon will be tried out to start the metagame.

What will be the council's policy on quickbans? For example, will we see small groups banned each week, if enough of them were broken? Or would the pattern be more random?
We will likely be quick to act on more obvious problems, especially if we are unanimous. However, the exact timing of it is still up in the air.
 
I haven't played Pokémon since 2 months after Isle of Armor dropped, so I am very surprised to see that Slowbro is UU now. Why did it drop that low?
 

Katy

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I haven't played Pokémon since 2 months after Isle of Armor dropped, so I am very surprised to see that Slowbro is UU now. Why did it drop that low?
The thrive of Urshifu-S in usage alongside Rillaboom and also Magnezone gave Slowbro a tough place in the metagame. Urshifu-S is just better checked by Toxapex (as a bulky water, since it fears no type-disadvantage) and either Clefable or Mandibuzz as a partner. Rillaboom and Magnezone give Slowbro also a trouble on the field, since Magnezone can just use a strong Choice Specs-boosted Thunderbolt on Slowbro or it can Volt Switch out to Rillaboom. That combination is very common in the metagame and Slowbro has a lot of problems with it. Furthermore Dragapult is very common and can just dish out a status on Slowbro and can use a strong Hex in the process. Dark-types like Zarude are also in a great spot at the moment and Zarude doesn't fear much except a burn from Scald, which it can heal with Jungle Healing. Aegislash also sees a small comeback, which is 1 more Mon, which Slowbro fears, especially the Choice Specs-Set, as a Stab Shadow Ball will just dent through Slowbro. Volcarona is also really common, which is another Mon Slowbro fears to face. So in overall the thrive of usage of particular Pokemon like these hinder Slowbro to do its job and make it that it has a tough time on the field. Other bulky waters are just prefered currently as they either have no type-disadvantage in the case of Toxapex or have a decent typing to begin with in the case of Primarina, which also is a great Setup-Sweeper behind a Substitute.
 
The thrive of Urshifu-S in usage alongside Rillaboom and also Magnezone gave Slowbro a tough place in the metagame. Urshifu-S is just better checked by Toxapex (as a bulky water, since it fears no type-disadvantage) and either Clefable or Mandibuzz as a partner. Rillaboom and Magnezone give Slowbro also a trouble on the field, since Magnezone can just use a strong Choice Specs-boosted Thunderbolt on Slowbro or it can Volt Switch out to Rillaboom. That combination is very common in the metagame and Slowbro has a lot of problems with it. Furthermore Dragapult is very common and can just dish out a status on Slowbro and can use a strong Hex in the process. Dark-types like Zarude are also in a great spot at the moment and Zarude doesn't fear much except a burn from Scald, which it can heal with Jungle Healing. Aegislash also sees a small comeback, which is 1 more Mon, which Slowbro fears, especially the Choice Specs-Set, as a Stab Shadow Ball will just dent through Slowbro. Volcarona is also really common, which is another Mon Slowbro fears to face. So in overall the thrive of usage of particular Pokemon like these hinder Slowbro to do its job and make it that it has a tough time on the field. Other bulky waters are just prefered currently as they either have no type-disadvantage in the case of Toxapex or have a decent typing to begin with in the case of Primarina, which also is a great Setup-Sweeper behind a Substitute.
Yikes, this meta looks like fuuuuun, hehe....

Hope Lando brings some order in this mess, thx 4 the answer!
 

Katy

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Can we retest Kyogre in OU? chansey/blissey /Gastrodon/ferrothorn/kyurem walls him to death,also there are many fast mons/priority moves can OHKO him(such as koko,lele,zeraora,kartana,moves like grassy glide,etc)
hello,

kyogre as a box legend will be banned to ubers automatically first and foremost, kyogre is the same case as groudon, xerneas, yveltal and any other legend it will move directly to the uber tier.

2nd of all, kyogre has only a very limited amount of switch-ins of mons, which can "safely" come in on it, as water spout does a huge chunk to even blissey and chansey, and it doesnt matter if that is scarfed or specsed. furthermore being limited to a small amount of water absorbers or 1 storm drain mon makes it very restrictive in teambuilding already and kyogre can opt to use a mixed set as well to make it harder for them to consistently check it. kyogre just has no place in the ou tier whatsoever.
 
Can we retest Kyogre in OU? chansey/blissey /Gastrodon/ferrothorn/kyurem walls him to death,also there are many fast mons/priority moves can OHKO him(such as koko,lele,zeraora,kartana,moves like grassy glide,etc)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyogre Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Eviolite Chansey in Rain: 427-504 (60.7 - 71.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyogre Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn in Rain: 218-257 (61.9 - 73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyogre Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Kyurem in Rain: 259-306 (57 - 67.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyogre Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gastrodon: 147-173 (34.5 - 40.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

hope this helps.
 
Hey-Why do some mons run unoptimal stat spreads? Zeraora, for example, usually runs 252+ speed-But why? 248+ still outspeeds Dragapult, the only thing that Zeraora runs max speed for at all, aside from Talonflame which is fringe at best. Or like, why doesn't Pex run 4 Spe instead of 4 SpD-Outspeeds all the other Pexes and speed ties with Hatterene and Reuniclus on their standard builds-who run speed specifically for Pex! It seems like stat points are going to waste unknowingly--Pult can run like 220+ speed (I haven't checked yet but that seems about right) and still outpace Adamant/Jolly Zeraora. Maybe I'm the first one to think about this, but I doubt it-the stat spreads are definitely unoptimal, however.
 
Hey-Why do some mons run unoptimal stat spreads? Zeraora, for example, usually runs 252+ speed-But why? 248+ still outspeeds Dragapult, the only thing that Zeraora runs max speed for at all, aside from Talonflame which is fringe at best. Or like, why doesn't Pex run 4 Spe instead of 4 SpD-Outspeeds all the other Pexes and speed ties with Hatterene and Reuniclus on their standard builds-who run speed specifically for Pex! It seems like stat points are going to waste unknowingly--Pult can run like 220+ speed (I haven't checked yet but that seems about right) and still outpace Adamant/Jolly Zeraora. Maybe I'm the first one to think about this, but I doubt it-the stat spreads are definitely unoptimal, however.
I'm not sure myself, but I think one reason might be that it isn't worth it. Zera can run 248+ speed EVs but do you want to do with the other 4 EVs. And in the Pex vs Pex situation I don't think it matters.
Pult can run enough EVs to outrun Alakazam, but that's only really viable in a mixed set and I think, you would like to speed tie with other pults.
I'm not a pro by any means, so take this with a grain of salt.
 

Katy

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Hey-Why do some mons run unoptimal stat spreads? Zeraora, for example, usually runs 252+ speed-But why? 248+ still outspeeds Dragapult,
Zeraora runs 252 speed instead of 248 to still speed tie with other 252+ jolly /hasty / naive Zeraora and it doesnt get outsped by opposing Zeraora.

Or like, why doesn't Pex run 4 Spe instead of 4 SpD-Outspeeds all the other Pexes
Toxapex doesnt need speed investment because it needs everything what can be invested into its bulk, and speed creeping is only necessary in specific circumstances like tournament games, but outside of them, there arent any special cases of EV spreads needed as the usual spreads do it for the ladder and also they are already optimized in the analysis of the particular Pokemon.
Pult can run like 220+ speed (I haven't checked yet but that seems about right) and still outpace Adamant/Jolly Zeraora. Maybe I'm the first one to think about this, but I doubt it-the stat spreads are definitely unoptimal, however.
Dragapult is naturally slower than Zeraora by exactly 1 point if they have a + Speed nature and 252 invest in their speed-stat, furthermore adamant Zeraora isn't a thing hence why Dragapult doesnt need to worry about 220+ Speed. Dragapult needs its full invest in speed as well, as it doesn't wanna get outpaced by opposing Dragapult in the game.
 
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Ruft

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Hey-Why do some mons run unoptimal stat spreads? Zeraora, for example, usually runs 252+ speed-But why? 248+ still outspeeds Dragapult, the only thing that Zeraora runs max speed for at all, aside from Talonflame which is fringe at best. Or like, why doesn't Pex run 4 Spe instead of 4 SpD-Outspeeds all the other Pexes and speed ties with Hatterene and Reuniclus on their standard builds-who run speed specifically for Pex! It seems like stat points are going to waste unknowingly--Pult can run like 220+ speed (I haven't checked yet but that seems about right) and still outpace Adamant/Jolly Zeraora. Maybe I'm the first one to think about this, but I doubt it-the stat spreads are definitely unoptimal, however.
As has been stated above, you'd run 252+ Speed on Zeraora for other Zeraora (and Jolly in the first place for +Speed Dragapult). 252 Speed with an Adamant nature is also fine; it still outpaces neutral Speed natured Dragapult, but 128+ (or 252+) Speed Dragapult exists to outspeed it (you're definitely not the first one to think of this). As for Toxapex, outspeeding other Toxapex only very rarely comes into play. However, it can indeed be useful to outspeed and use Haze on Hatterene and Reuniclus as you mentioned, but then again those Pokemon can run more Speed in return as well. Investing in Speed specifically for other Pokemon with specific Speed benchmarks is called speed creep. In analyses on the Smogon dex, speed creep to outpace Pokemon with investment other than 0 or 252 Speed EVs is not done because it's a slippery slope where there's simply no objective line to draw as to how far you can go. You can definitely engage in speed creep yourself in the builder and it is common practice for tournament play, but you can't expect to see it in analyses.
 
I'm not sure myself, but I think one reason might be that it isn't worth it. Zera can run 248+ speed EVs but do you want to do with the other 4 EVs. And in the Pex vs Pex situation I don't think it matters.
Pult can run enough EVs to outrun Alakazam, but that's only really viable in a mixed set and I think, you would like to speed tie with other pults.
I'm not a pro by any means, so take this with a grain of salt.
Zeraora runs 252 speed instead of 248 to still speed tie with other 252+ jolly /hasty / naive Zeraora and it doesnt get outsped by opposing Zeraora.



Toxapex doesnt need speed investment because it needs everything what can be invested into its bulk, and speed creeping is only necessary in specific circumstances like tournament games, bout outside of them, there arent any special cases of EV spreads needed as the usual spreads do it for the ladder and also they are already optimized in the analysis of the particular Pokemon.


Dragapult is naturally slower than Zeraora by exactly 1 point if they have a + Speed nature and 252 invest in their speed-stat, furthermore adamant Zeraora isn't a thing hence why Dragapult doesnt need to worry about 220+ Speed. Dragapult needs its full invest in speed as well, as it doesn't wanna get outpaced by opposing Dragapult in the game.
As has been stated above, you'd run 252+ Speed on Zeraora for other Zeraora (and Jolly in the first place for +Speed Dragapult). 252 Speed with an Adamant nature is also fine; it still outpaces neutral Speed natured Dragapult, but 128+ (or 252+) Speed Dragapult exists to outspeed it (you're definitely not the first one to think of this). As for Toxapex, outspeeding other Toxapex only very rarely comes into play. However, it can indeed be useful to outspeed and use Haze on Hatterene and Reuniclus as you mentioned, but then again those Pokemon can run more Speed in return as well. Investing in Speed specifically for other Pokemon with specific Speed benchmarks is called speed creep. In analyses on the Smogon dex, speed creep to outpace Pokemon with investment other than 0 or 252 Speed EVs is not done because it's a slippery slope where there's simply no objective line to draw as to how far you can go. You can definitely engage in speed creep yourself in the builder and it is common practice for tournament play, but you can't expect to see it in analyses.
Okay, thanks guys!
 

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