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Ruft

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Thanks I thought it was like counter teaming or something like that but just wanted to make sure.
For what it's worth, "counterteaming" in tournaments is perfectly allowed. In fact, preparing for your opponent is encouraged. However, creating a team to specifically counter that which you expect your opponent to bring will oftentimes open up significant weaknessess to other things, so while it's allowed it's fairly cheesy. Proper prep in tournaments is basically assembling a team that is solid overall but matches up particularly well against the type of teams your opponent likes to bring without sacrificing too much counterplay to other things, and playtesting it of course.
 

Finchinator

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What are some emerging boots users that aren't rocks weak (similar to Zeraora and Dragapult)?
We have seen boots on Tyranitar, Hippowdon, and Gastrodon as well as those two when discussing viable users who are not SR weak. This oftentimes enables team structures that do not rely on Defoggers such as Corviknight or team structures that prefer having their own Spikes up, therefore functioning best when hazards or on both sides or the opponent is forced to fog. These pokemon typically do not work on these builds due to a big vulnerability to Spikes and TSpikes, but now work well.
 
I have a question about suspect length. The cinderace test took about 14 days to complete, but the RU sigilyph test only goes on for 10 days. Is there a reason why it's like that?
 
I have a question about suspect length. The cinderace test took about 14 days to complete, but the RU sigilyph test only goes on for 10 days. Is there a reason why it's like that?
Not 100% sure, but I'm pretty sure the councils of the correct tier can decide on however long they want it to be. Also it's likely the RU one was shorter because less people play RU so most of em would've qualified within 10 days anyways.
 
Not 100% sure, but I'm pretty sure the councils of the correct tier can decide on however long they want it to be. Also it's likely the RU one was shorter because less people play RU so most of em would've qualified within 10 days anyways.
Thanks for responding. This question is mostly for the OU council, but would it be possible to lower the time for gaining suspect reqs for the incoming dlc to make them go faster or has this already been tried and 14 days is the most optimal option ?
 

Finchinator

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Thanks for responding. This question is mostly for the OU council, but would it be possible to lower the time for gaining suspect reqs for the incoming dlc to make them go faster or has this already been tried and 14 days is the most optimal option ?
If gamefreak sticks with the DLC model, then I personally think lowering the suspect lengths to something like 10 days would be more appropriate and it is something I will bring up. However, that is just my personal opinion and it also hinges on what the future has in store. Hopefully there will not be many more DLCs and we will have a longer period of time to settle future metagame states, which will be doing everyone involved with OU tiering a favor of course. Be it later this generation, next generation, or whenever we know more about DLCs, we will be sure to discuss it and act in accordance with what we believe to be best.
 
hmmm out of curiosity maybe some of the council members will see this and be able to answer. Why was cinderace tested when the crowned tundra is comming around the corner and offering new ways to keep it in check in overused while right now it was clear it would cause issues in ou? I'm just confused why it was tested at this point?
 

Finchinator

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hmmm out of curiosity maybe some of the council members will see this and be able to answer. Why was cinderace tested when the crowned tundra is comming around the corner and offering new ways to keep it in check in overused while right now it was clear it would cause issues in ou? I'm just confused why it was tested at this point?
This has been answered dozens of times, but let me walk you through it. It was banned initially via a council quickban, which happened well over a month into the metagame and came alongside the condition that it would be retested.

If we were to not retest it before a massive metagame shift, it basically sets a precedent that the council would be allowed to quickban anything at any point in time (beyond panic quickbans within the first few days) without any consulting to a community vote. It is important that the community gets to provide their feedback on every potential suspect that is not virtually unanimous.

In addition, nobody said anything whatsoever about this impacting Cinderace's placement in the post-DLC2 metagame. It can easily be reintroduced or retested once more if and when appropriate. Nobody should assume it will not be looked at later when the metagame will be vastly different, with tons of new Pokemon shifting almost everything.
 
Is discussion about DLC 2 content and its potential impact on the meta allowed? If so, is it permitted in the metagame discussion thread? If not there, where?
 
Have you ever considered banning Stealth Rock ?

I know that moves are not usually discussed for this kind of topic but this move is quite peculiar and most likely the best of the solo format, first I don't know if it can be considered too powerful or too oppressive or just too impactful, or even if it can be considered healthy or not for the format, but I know for sure it kind of restrict team building, and If I understood well, it's a big no no here, like now it's very rare not having a defogger or a spinner and also since this Generation, forces some Pokémon to use boots over everything else.

That being said, it's not that I dislike the mechanic but there is 2 things I really don't like, first it's everywhere and second it's typing kind of weeken every Pokémon of certain types by default, more diversified hazards would have been more fair.
 
Have you ever considered banning Stealth Rock ?

I know that moves are not usually discussed for this kind of topic but this move is quite peculiar and most likely the best of the solo format, first I don't know if it can be considered too powerful or too oppressive or just too impactful, or even if it can be considered healthy or not for the format, but I know for sure it kind of restrict team building, and If I understood well, it's a big no no here, like now it's very rare not having a defogger or a spinner and also since this Generation, forces some Pokémon to use boots over everything else.

That being said, it's not that I dislike the mechanic but there is 2 things I really don't like, first it's everywhere and second it's typing kind of weeken every Pokémon of certain types by default, more diversified hazards would have been more fair.
I disagree, in a metagame with boots hazards are at their weakest right now. If stealth rock was not even ban worthy last gen then it is far from banworthy this gen. We have plenty viable spinners and Defoggers that can neuter hazards
 

Finchinator

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Is discussion about DLC 2 content and its potential impact on the meta allowed? If so, is it permitted in the metagame discussion thread? If not there, where?
Here!

Have you ever considered banning Stealth Rock ?

I know that moves are not usually discussed for this kind of topic but this move is quite peculiar and most likely the best of the solo format, first I don't know if it can be considered too powerful or too oppressive or just too impactful, or even if it can be considered healthy or not for the format, but I know for sure it kind of restrict team building, and If I understood well, it's a big no no here, like now it's very rare not having a defogger or a spinner and also since this Generation, forces some Pokémon to use boots over everything else.

That being said, it's not that I dislike the mechanic but there is 2 things I really don't like, first it's everywhere and second it's typing kind of weeken every Pokémon of certain types by default, more diversified hazards would have been more fair.
It has been discussed many times over the generations and the answer has always been: no, it is not banworthy. This generation, it is even less likely to be considered with Heavy Duty Boots being common and Defog distribution being at an all-time high.
 
Whats the best move for doing 100% damage to Sp. Def Toxapex? EQ, Psyshock?
252 SpA Life Orb Alakazam Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0+ Def Toxapex: 221-265 (72.6 - 87.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Psyshock zam makes a good check, but it doesn’t like knock off. Even with choice specs it isn’t an ohko.
252 SpA Choice Specs Alakazam Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0+ Def Toxapex: 254-302 (83.5 - 99.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
also most pex run physical defence
 
Whats the best move for doing 100% damage to Sp. Def Toxapex? EQ, Psyshock?
Adamant Excadrill eq does 84.8-100.6% to 252hp 252 spd calm Toxapex. I believe that this is the strongest non-boosted super effective move vs Toxapex in the tier, so there really isn’t a reliable way to ohko pex without a choice item or a boosting move.
 
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Adamant Excadrill eq does 84.8-100.6% to 252hp 252 speed calm Toxapex. I believe that this is the strongest non-boosted super effective move vs Toxapex in the tier, so there really isn’t a reliable way to ohko pex without a choice item or a boosting move.
252+ Atk Huge Power Diggersby Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Toxapex: 294-348 (96.7 - 114.4%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
Diggersby is the strongest ground in OU. With Choice Band it can OHKO Max Defense Bold Toxapex. That's pretty much all it does since it's BL
 
What's a good EV spread for Stunfisk? And how viable would Stunfisk be in the current metagame? Ive noticed it beats Magnezone, Zeraora and Toxtricity (since it lives boomburst), while also usually winning against Togekiss. It's also a stealth rocker that matches up well against corviknight.
 
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This has been answered dozens of times, but let me walk you through it. It was banned initially via a council quickban, which happened well over a month into the metagame and came alongside the condition that it would be retested.

If we were to not retest it before a massive metagame shift, it basically sets a precedent that the council would be allowed to quickban anything at any point in time (beyond panic quickbans within the first few days) without any consulting to a community vote. It is important that the community gets to provide their feedback on every potential suspect that is not virtually unanimous.

In addition, nobody said anything whatsoever about this impacting Cinderace's placement in the post-DLC2 metagame. It can easily be reintroduced or retested once more if and when appropriate. Nobody should assume it will not be looked at later when the metagame will be vastly different, with tons of new Pokemon shifting almost everything.
thanks for replying as especially given how tiresome it must be to answer the same question multiple times.
 
Why was galar darmanatan banned and not just Gorilla tactics?
Gorilla Tactics wouldn't be busted on anything with it though: It stinks when it is on a special attacker. Galarian Darmanitan happens to have a great combination of stats, typing, and movepool to abuse Gorilla Tactics with.

The only times abilities get banned is when they have disasterous effects no matter the pokemon that has it. (Which usually means trapping)
 
Gorilla Tactics wouldn't be busted on anything with it though: It stinks when it is on a special attacker. Galarian Darmanitan happens to have a great combination of stats, typing, and movepool to abuse Gorilla Tactics with.

The only times abilities get banned is when they have disasterous effects no matter the pokemon that has it. (Which usually means trapping)
I understand that. But is zen mode darmanatan worth banning? Surely more options in ou is better?
 

ShootingStarmie

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Why was galar darmanatan banned and not just Gorilla tactics?
Smogon tries to avoid complex bans, and prefers to ban the Pokemon rather than the ability. This is explained and discussed in greater detail here. While I don't speak for smogon and their philosophy, one problem would be that you'd run into other restrictions for other Pokemon that could be considered "not broken". Great example would be to allow Blaze Blaziken, as without Speed Boost it wouldn't be broken. Again, you could extend this logic further by allowing something like Marshadow but with no STAB attacks, or Galar Darmanitan with no item. I'm not saying these threats would be viable or fair in OU, but restricting Pokemon and adding new clauses is a bad idea.

I think this highlights why this is a bad idea, as you could (in theory) make any clearly broken Pokemon not broken with the right restrictions. Its better and simpler to just ban the Pokemon. Hope this cleared things up :toast:
 

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