Resource Simple Questions, Simple Answers Thread

Finchinator

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If cinderace is banned, there will be another suspect test less than a week after finishing the current? To test what the council thinks that deserve it. If not, why would we wait more time?
We do not know.

The council is constantly talking about the metagame and the metagame may change drastically if Cinderace is added back to the tier, which means all bets are off. If a top tier Pokemon is added to the metagame in an official capacity, holding a suspect within the next week borders on irresponsible honestly -- there is no way to gauge all of the ramifications this event may have on the metagame in such a brief period. I personally play dozens of games every day and even I could not fathom that quick of a turnaround.

Even if it is voted to remain in Ubers, the tier is still changing and we are still discussing our opinion. Personally, I would like another suspect before DLC2, but saying it should happen within a week of the prior suspect without accounting for metagame shifts, a potential addition of a top tier Pokemon, and the process behind it (having a suspect requires lots of work) is unfair.

The answer to your question is simply that we do not know right now. I'd say that within a week is a firm "probably not", but overall before DLC2 is a "hopefully, but let's wait and see".
 
Hello, this is a question that I've been thinking this days with Ace suspect.
Is there a posibility that, when the 2nd DLC comes, to take all suspected Pokemon: Magearna, Dracovish, Melmetal and Cinderace (if it goes back to Ubers) to OU at the beggining oa the Crown Tundra metagame, just like when we start a new generation metagame (like what you did with Aegishlash this gen or Protean Gren in SM)
I think that this is a good option to just re-test all and, if they're still broken for the metagame you can ban them again (just like UU did with some Pokemon when the first DLC came)
There are a lot of powerful Pokemon that will come in this DLC, which most of them will end in OU (Tapus, some of the UB, Victini, Latios, the genies, Zapdos, Garchomp...) so the metagame will change drastically (more than it changed with the 1st DLC imo)
It's just an opinion, but I would like to know what the council thinks about this.
 
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Finchinator

We'll be a fine line
is a Top Social Media Contributoris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Top Smogon Media Contributoris a Battle Simulator Moderatoris a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Past WCoP Championis a former Tournament Circuit Champion
BW Circuit Champion
Is there a posibility that, when the 2nd DLC comes, to take all suspected Pokemon: Magearna, Dracovish, Melmetal and Cinderace (if it goes back to Ubers) to OU at the beggining oa the Crown Tundra metagame, just like when we start a new generation metagame (like what you did with Aegishlash this gen or Protean Gren in SM)
It is still being discussed and we will reach a conclusion once we finish with the pre-DLC2 tiering. I think it would be fair to add at least some of them to the tier as it is a completely clean slate. The old metagame will not resemble the new one whatsoever.

However, coming to a conclusion on this right now would be premature and it is not my place alone to determine this.
 
It is still being discussed and we will reach a conclusion once we finish with the pre-DLC2 tiering. I think it would be fair to add at least some of them to the tier as it is a completely clean slate. The old metagame will not resemble the new one whatsoever.

However, coming to a conclusion on this right now would be premature and it is not my place alone to determine this.

That having said. I think every mon should be looked at individually. For example Dracovish will not get any new (viable) checks that aren't water absorbers. However I agree with most of the opinion, but I think the council should look at potential checks first before retesting something.
 

Finchinator

We'll be a fine line
is a Top Social Media Contributoris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Top Smogon Media Contributoris a Battle Simulator Moderatoris a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Past WCoP Championis a former Tournament Circuit Champion
BW Circuit Champion
That having said. I think every mon should be looked at individually. For example Dracovish will not get any new (viable) checks that aren't water absorbers. However I agree with most of the opinion, but I think the council should look at potential checks first before retesting something.
We are not going to come to one universal opinion. It, much like most other things when it comes to tiering individual Pokemon, will likely be done on a case-to-case basis. We are yet to have these discussions yet, but I imagine we examine every single relevant Pokemon that was banned and that is being released individually. Cannot say we do not come to a similar consensus for a group of Pokemon, but there will be discussion on everything we have alluded to.
 

Finchinator

We'll be a fine line
is a Top Social Media Contributoris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Top Smogon Media Contributoris a Battle Simulator Moderatoris a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Past WCoP Championis a former Tournament Circuit Champion
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What are some good teammates for a Hydriegon Aegislash core?
A reliable Stealth Rock setter like Clefable or Hippowdon could be helpful. In addition, speed control like Zeraora or Dragapult help round teams like this out. You’ll also want some defensive pivots to help check common threats that you may not cover with these pokemon starting your team! I’d check the viability rankings for a good list of things to account for and if you have more questions, feel free to ask here.
 
I am new to the forum so I hope here is the right thread for my question. I am pretty new to competitive Pokemon but especially since the DLC came out I don't really understand the metagame anymore. :pikuh: So I hear that a lot of players are discontent with the current metagame. One thing I heard is that some people feel that the metagame has become too bulky I think ( Toxapex and Clefable and more ) because there are not enough breakers. But also we have Pokemon like Urshifu, Cinderace and the banned Magearna who are/were deemed to be too powerful. But aren't those breakers?
So my question is, what is the reason why player dislike the current metagame (at least what I experienced) and what are the future endeavors to establish a "better" metagame/ what needs to happen to get a better metagame.
Sry if my question is too convoluted. :blobthinking:
 
I am new to the forum so I hope here is the right thread for my question. I am pretty new to competitive Pokemon but especially since the DLC came out I don't really understand the metagame anymore. :pikuh: So I hear that a lot of players are discontent with the current metagame. One thing I heard is that some people feel that the metagame has become too bulky I think ( Toxapex and Clefable and more ) because there are not enough breakers. But also we have Pokemon like Urshifu, Cinderace and the banned Magearna who are/were deemed to be too powerful. But aren't those breakers?
So my question is, what is the reason why player dislike the current metagame (at least what I experienced) and what are the future endeavors to establish a "better" metagame/ what needs to happen to get a better metagame.
Sry if my question is too convoluted. :blobthinking:
Pokemon like Urshifu, Cinderace, and Magearna were breakers, but each of them forces defensive counterplay. For instance, most, if not all stall teams currently should run 2 of Hippowdon, Toxapex, and Mandibuzz in order to be safe vs. Cinderace. They should also run Clefable + a regen mon to beat Urshifu. Even the busted mons of Urshifu and Cinderace cannot break through a stall that has these. They're breakers, but they force defensive counterplay, rather than offensive. Think about OU Manaphy. It can break through pretty much any stall with its signature tail glow. Therefore, if you switch in a defensive pokemon when Manaphy tail glows, you're just going to have to sack a mon vs. it. But if you bring in an offensive mon as it tail glows, then it is forced out.

Essentially, Cinderace and Urshifu have defensive counterplay which is taken to full effect by Balance and bulkier teams. Neither Urshifu nor Cinderace will be able to break through a well prepared stall team without significant team support and multiple 50/50s. The reason why they are busted is that this defensive counterplay is so limited that it has to be run on any team with a defensive backbone in order to be safe against them. It is very difficult to out-offense them, but out-defensing them is easy with the very limited selection of mons that counter them.
 
I'm not very familiar with the reasoning behind tiering decisions so I'm curious as to why Cinderace as a whole is being tested rather than Liberio CInderace in particular. Prior to Cinderace getting Liberio nobody thought it was broken or unhealthy, and if it gets banned I doubt Raboot or Scorbunny will be ruling the tier so I don't think Liberio itself is broken. Because of this I'm not sure what the rationale for banning Cinderace as a whole is rather than specifically Liberio Cinderace is.
 

Katy

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I'm not very familiar with the reasoning behind tiering decisions so I'm curious as to why Cinderace as a whole is being tested rather than Liberio CInderace in particular. Prior to Cinderace getting Liberio nobody thought it was broken or unhealthy, and if it gets banned I doubt Raboot or Scorbunny will be ruling the tier so I don't think Liberio itself is broken. Because of this I'm not sure what the rationale for banning Cinderace as a whole is rather than specifically Liberio Cinderace is.
Banning Libero would make a complex ban-situation and usually the members of the council in each and every tier try to avoid any complex ban-situations, therefore Cinderace is being suspect tested as a whole rather than its ability Libero. The tiering decision as to why Cinderace is retested is, that the Council wants to give Cinderace a chance and people have a glance on how it'll turn out during the suspect wether or not it's still too good for the tier. But banning Libero would make a complex ban and usually the council tries to avoid them.
 
Banning Libero would make a complex ban-situation and usually the members of the council in each and every tier try to avoid any complex ban-situations, therefore Cinderace is being suspect tested as a whole rather than its ability Libero. The tiering decision as to why Cinderace is retested is, that the Council wants to give Cinderace a chance and people have a glance on how it'll turn out during the suspect wether or not it's still too good for the tier. But banning Libero would make a complex ban and usually the council tries to avoid them.
Whats the reasoning for the council avoiding complex bans? It seems to me that if the issue is a specific aspect of a mon and not the entirety of the mon itself then that aspect should be banned rather than the mon itself. This seems especially true for Cinderace because Court Change provides an entirely unique niche that will be lost if the mon itself is banned rather than just Liberio on it.
 
Whats the reasoning for the council avoiding complex bans? It seems to me that if the issue is a specific aspect of a mon and not the entirety of the mon itself then that aspect should be banned rather than the mon itself. This seems especially true for Cinderace because Court Change provides an entirely unique niche that will be lost if the mon itself is banned rather than just Liberio on it.
That's just not how Smogon works. Non-Pokemon bans are reserved for things like trapping abilities and evasion moves. Things that are egregiously broken and uncompetitive. Libero's a great ability, but it's nowhere near that level of toxic.
 
That's just not how Smogon works. Non-Pokemon bans are reserved for things like trapping abilities and evasion moves. Things that are egregiously broken and uncompetitive. Libero's a great ability, but it's nowhere near that level of toxic.
I agree that Liberio isn't broken and said so in my first post, my question was why does smogon not do complex bans if its clear that a specific aspect of a mon is what is making the mon overpowered?
 

Finchinator

We'll be a fine line
is a Top Social Media Contributoris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Top Smogon Media Contributoris a Battle Simulator Moderatoris a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Past WCoP Championis a former Tournament Circuit Champion
BW Circuit Champion
Whats the reasoning for the council avoiding complex bans? It seems to me that if the issue is a specific aspect of a mon and not the entirety of the mon itself then that aspect should be banned rather than the mon itself. This seems especially true for Cinderace because Court Change provides an entirely unique niche that will be lost if the mon itself is banned rather than just Liberio on it.
If we ban Libero, then that means that Pokemon such as Raboot are no longer usable in lower tiers, so that already is an unfair solution as it departs from the status quo and has noteworthy collateral. However, let's say there would be no collateral and it was a different case of banning an ability. If we ban an ability because it only breaks one Pokemon, then the logic is to preserve the Pokemon in the tier. If an ability is broken on numerous Pokemon, then perhaps it is worth looking into. So now we're looking at issues that are broken only on one Pokemon -- if only Cinderace got Libero, then we will still look at Cinderace, not Libero.

If we start tiering abilities like this, then what stops us from tiering other fragments of Pokemon? All of a sudden, we're banning specific moves and abilities. We're no longer tiering Pokemon and usage is no longer reflective of the metagames as we are tiering Pokemon, abilities, items, moves, etc. -- it creates an awful slippery slope that we refuse to conform in to. If we give in once, then it opens the flood gates and devalues the entire system.

Now let's say we tackle the issue in the most specific way possible: a ban of the combination of Cinderace and Libero. This is called a "complex ban" and it is also something we try to avoid at all costs. If we ban the combination of Cinderace and Libero, then why not try to balance every single Uber Pokemon by banning it + its ability, it + its signature move, it + a specific item or items, etc. -- it creates a similar slippery slope that would derail the entire tiering system.

At some point, it becomes very complicated and defeats the purpose of tiering overall. Needless to say, we want to prevent starting this issue and Cinderace will be tiered as a Pokemon because of this.

Let's conclude discussion on this topic here so others can use this space for their questions and we avoid a formal debate. If you have more questions on other topics, feel free to post here. If not and you have more on this topic, feel free to PM me anytime and we can discuss further!
 

RoyalReloaded

formerly xRoyal64
maybe not the right place for this, but...

teambuilding is hard. very hard. are there any good resources? preferably a guide of some sort
 

Katy

See everyone with your own eyes!
is a Social Media Contributoris a Community Contributor
maybe not the right place for this, but...

teambuilding is hard. very hard. are there any good resources? preferably a guide of some sort
Hey,

ya teambuilding isnt that easy for beginners, but there are some helpful rescources for the start:
first and foremost the viability rankings, they show which mons are good and which mons have only a niche as a guideline to show, how the metagame-state is and which mons perform well currently: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/ss-ou-viability-ranking-thread.3666340/

here are some good ou cores from the get go, means you can build teams around these pokemon, they are differentiated in offensive cores and balanced / defensive cores: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/ss-ou-good-cores.3657595/

the role compendiu is one of the best threads to get together some ideas of what mon does which role and you can build up on that: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/ss-ou-role-compendium.3657644/

and sample teams: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/ss-ou-sample-teams-updated-on-sep-5.3666247/ where you get some ideas from what can work out in the metagame. a very good sidenote is, that you can orientate yourself on the sample teams and have a basic guideline on how to build up your own team(s).

last but not least:
Finchinator did a great video how to build in ss ou and i am pretty sure this guideline will also help a ton.
 

RoyalReloaded

formerly xRoyal64
Hey,

ya teambuilding isnt that easy for beginners, but there are some helpful rescources for the start:
first and foremost the viability rankings, they show which mons are good and which mons have only a niche as a guideline to show, how the metagame-state is and which mons perform well currently: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/ss-ou-viability-ranking-thread.3666340/

here are some good ou cores from the get go, means you can build teams around these pokemon, they are differentiated in offensive cores and balanced / defensive cores: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/ss-ou-good-cores.3657595/

the role compendiu is one of the best threads to get together some ideas of what mon does which role and you can build up on that: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/ss-ou-role-compendium.3657644/

and sample teams: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/ss-ou-sample-teams-updated-on-sep-5.3666247/ where you get some ideas from what can work out in the metagame. a very good sidenote is, that you can orientate yourself on the sample teams and have a basic guideline on how to build up your own team(s).

last but not least:
Finchinator did a great video how to build in ss ou and i am pretty sure this guideline will also help a ton.
thanks!
 

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