Skillmons [Coming back soon™]

To fix most of those problems, accuracy should not be combined with base power. Technician etc will then work without needing more changes. If accuracy is below 100, multiply it to the damage output. If it exceeds 100, nothing else happens (just like having >100 accuracy has no benefits in regular play). It'll prevent moves like Defog and Coil from doing stuff they shouldn't be doing.

Non-damage moves with <100 accuracy have their secondary effects EP'ed, like Hypnosis. Keep moves like Dynamic Punch at 100 BP and give it 50 confusion EP. Non-miss moves like Aerial Ace always do the same damage regardless of evasion or accuracy modifiers.

Please ban Moody and Acupressure, otherwise the current set up (which boosts Atk first) biases towards physical attackers.

OHKO moves wtf. If you're not banning these, should do exactly 30% to the opponent.
 
This looks really interesting! As far as accuracy goes, may I suggest this formula?

Old BP * (Old Acc * 1.125) / 100

With the current formula, as it stands, a lot of moves get overshadowed simply because of the BP loss, for example Hydro Pump. Also, for Jump Kick and Hi Jump Kick, maybe give it a recoil secondary? 1/3 and 1/2, respectively. It would allow the moves to keep their high BPs at a cost.
 

Joim

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tri attack is broken and doesnt accumalte any points at all
Fixed

http://prntscr.com/5tvjfz

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/joimslab-skillmonsou-2618

Fun fact: you can burn a burned pokemon and it damages them twice at the end of the turn!

Extra burns wear off on the switch, but other than that it seems like you can just throw burns out and rack up the residual damage. Please fix
I think I fixed it, gotta check it out though.

To fix most of those problems, accuracy should not be combined with base power. Technician etc will then work without needing more changes. If accuracy is below 100, multiply it to the damage output. If it exceeds 100, nothing else happens (just like having >100 accuracy has no benefits in regular play). It'll prevent moves like Defog and Coil from doing stuff they shouldn't be doing.

Non-damage moves with <100 accuracy have their secondary effects EP'ed, like Hypnosis. Keep moves like Dynamic Punch at 100 BP and give it 50 confusion EP. Non-miss moves like Aerial Ace always do the same damage regardless of evasion or accuracy modifiers.

Please ban Moody and Acupressure, otherwise the current set up (which boosts Atk first) biases towards physical attackers.

OHKO moves wtf. If you're not banning these, should do exactly 30% to the opponent.
The first thing you says defeats the whole purpose of getting 100% rid of accuracy and evasion as game stats. So you want accuracy to be a stat that increases the damage of some moves, but not of some other moves?

I'm thinking on moving Moody and Accupressure to higher stat after evs etc. And banning Moody.

What do with OHKO moves? Yeah, I can make them deal a fix 30% damage, but then the point of Lock On and Mind Reader is completely lost. I tried for those moves to still be relevant in use with OHKO moves with this change. You suggest that they do 30% and 100% with lock on and mind reader?

With the current formula, as it stands, a lot of moves get overshadowed simply because of the BP loss, for example Hydro Pump. Also, for Jump Kick and Hi Jump Kick, maybe give it a recoil secondary? 1/3 and 1/2, respectively. It would allow the moves to keep their high BPs at a cost.
Well, they do lose BP and if you use Protect you still get recoil.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/joimslab-skillmonsou-2618

Should secondary effect stack / apply on the killing blow ? @ Turn 53, moonblast stacks turning into dust because it was 'applied' on a dead mon.
When you kill someone, you do not have any 'odds of applying secondary effects'. Thus i do not think killing blows should create/apply stacks.
Ok, right now, it still stacks, but won't apply on fainted Pokémon. Let's see how that turns out.
 
Joim "You suggest that they do 30% and 100% with lock on and mind reader?"

I didn't come up with the idea, but I'd like to state that Lock on + OHKO moves shouldn't do 100%... Some matches last 80 turns, not 12 ... Man, imagine Spore + Lock on + OHKO move. I don't want to see this happen. Unless you have something faster, you 'start' the match at 4 vs 6. OHKO Moves weren't banned only because they were luck based, they were banned because they are game-breaking !

EDIT
Also, "Fissure: 90 Base Power now. Ignores defense modifiers. If user used Lock-On or Mind Reader before, the power of this move is doubled."
^ That's a brilliant replacement. Removal of critical hits make defense stacking very powerfull. Replacing OHKO moves with moves that ignore defense modifiers helps handling defense stacking.

Finally, "Well, they do lose BP and if you use Protect you still get recoil." Ghosts, too. I support keeping Hjk mechanics.
 
So you want accuracy to be a stat that increases the damage of some moves, but not of some other moves?
I want accuracy to be a stat that decreases the damage of imperfect accuracy moves.

My suggestion works similar to the concept you already have. E.g. for Rock Slide - 75 BP and 90 Acc - with my proposed damage formula, the damage output becomes 75 BP * CapTo1( 90% ) = 67.5; roughly the same as your 67 BP. Now lets give it a Hone Claws +1 Atk / +1 Acc boost. The output is 75 BP * CapTo1( 90% * 1.5 ) * 1.5 Atk = 112.5; accuracy is capped to 100%. This is what it should be in a regular game. With yours, Hone Claws is +2 Atk which makes 67 BP * 2.0 Atk = 134; so you have overpowered this (read what Kasumi said about durant), in addition of having to re-mod a lot of moves. Going the way I suggested bypasses that.

Sure it'd mean accuracy and evasion stats are back, but instead of causing misses, they cause modifications to damage output.

You suggest that they do 30% and 100% with lock on and mind reader?
That's what it comes down to mathematically, yes. What you have right now is a move that you basically made up. I beg you to leave this stuff for Joimmons, not here.
 
Not sure if you're aware of this, I think xfix pushed a fix on github but...



...this has pretty much broken the meta. There are no restrictions on items other than Soul Dew, so all those banned megas are suddenly OU legal. Gengar himself is already way too strong and 2HKO's everything(even his checks after rocks), and now this.
 
This meta is meant for making pokémon battles more like board strategy (chess and family), that's a great idea, I once was thinking about that. But there's another source of bias in pokémon battles: teambuilding. You have to optimize everything for best results before battle and it takes a lot of tests to know how good your team really is in the current metagame. Because of that, ofter you will say: "this team won", not "you won". Given that fact, we have in Showdown a surprisingly popular and well made metagame: the random battles. It picks pokémon and put a level depending on its tier, so you can see all kind of battles. And a bonus feature, you can challenge your friend 10 times in a row without worry about how repetitive the outcomes will be. My proposal is: put skillmons random battles! I already have it in my own server. Congratulations and thanks a lot for the wonderful job, Joim.
 

Joim

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Sorry about all that stuff, changing the way secondaries move and hoping nothing breaks is just too much to ask, lol.
I've:
-Implemented xfix's fixes on bans.
-Nerfed confusion

Now I'm planning on:
-Updating t-wave to reflect 25% non moving chance in-game.
-Update confusion so the 50% effectivity applies to everything.
-Rework OHKO moves so they're as similar as in-game as possible.
-Once no bugs and implementation is 100% done, unban a bunch of stuff.
-Start testing things individually in this luckless meta.
 

Joim

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I've just nerfed slightly multihit moves. The average hit was 3 and thus multihit moves remain at 3, but now their bp is calculated with the following formula: ((33.333*oldbp*2) + (33.333*oldbp*3) + (16.666*oldbp*4) + (16.666*oldbp*5)) / 100 / 3; As such, I've updated skill link to increase the Base Power of multihit moves by 5 / 3.

This does NOT apply to double-hit moves. Multihit moves are those that used to hit 2-5 times and now hit always 3 times.
 
i really like the skillmon idea but i would make this even simplier : no critical hits, no full par (only speed reduction) no secondary effects at all (the secondary point idea is kinda weird ) only status moves for that , only 1 turn of sleep, no double protect (after you protect once you can't even select protect again), I would raise the accuracy of 80% -95% moves i think that range of moves are the most usable, if we don't have accuracy at all we can just use Whimsicott and spam priority Grass Whistle.

Anyway i like this format "skill or gtfo".
 
"no secondary effects at all (the secondary point idea is kinda weird )"

FUCK NO
The secondary point stacking thing is currently one of the best idea i've ever seen in a metagame. You do not appear to be getting a single percent of what it allows you to do.
As an exemple, you can, if you've got a lategame sweeper with iron head, stack flinch to near the cap, to come back lategame and get a free decisive flinch on the one you cannot kill. You can also charge things with defensive mons, to decharge them with offensive mons.
One of the glorious ideas i've seen so far is Walksacred's one, using Togekiss Serenity to stack all move buff chance to 90, then unleash hell by doing a single omnious wind / ancient power with a mon that can dish out the pain.
The charge idea is awesome, don't even dare touching it ! A meta with "skill" in the name shall not be a reduction of the actual game, but an extension. And the charge system sure makes skillmons more complex, and thus more interesting, than the actual game.

"if we don't have accuracy at all we can just use Whimsicott and spam priority Grass Whistle."
Grass Whistle = 55 points in sleep charge, not 100.
And sleep clause's still here. And you can check the sleep status.
 
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"The charge idea is awesome, don't even dare touching it ! A meta with "skill" in the name shall not be a reduction of the actual game, but an extension."

LULWOT ? let's add xyz summon than so we can xyz summon mons from the extra deck -.-"

The game is nearly perfect and we just need to eliminate the "luck" part of it not add complete new mechanics.
 
"The charge idea is awesome, don't even dare touching it ! A meta with "skill" in the name shall not be a reduction of the actual game, but an extension."

LULWOT ? let's add xyz summon than so we can xyz summon mons from the extra deck -.-"

The game is nearly perfect and we just need to eliminate the "luck" part of it not add complete new mechanics.
The "charge" mechanic is an elimination of luck, though. Moves like Scald and Discharge are used solely for the secondary effect chance, and to remove that is to remove from the game itself. Instead, the charge mechanic was introduced to have an effectively similar system that relies on planning and prediction, rather than simply hoping the odds that should be in your favour work out as such. Secondly, having less than 100% accuracy on any move adds luck back in as a factor, unless you implement an accuracy charge mechanic too. Hence why moves such as Sing and Grasswhistle give an amount of status charge equal to their original accuracy, as otherwise a guaranteed sleep that hits through substitutes is just stupid.
 
We are removing critical hits from the game so your point makes no sense. That's why i disagree on the no accuracy thing and the charge system because you will create a new meta, we don't use hypnosis or grasswhistle in competitive battles(unless you are just relyig on luck) but with the charge system people will, you don't even need to be lucky anymore you will just put things to sleep for sure after the charge.
Anyway i'm not interested in this conversation, i just wanted to show my support for the project because if people aren't interested there is no point in developing it. if i like the final result i will play if i don't i will not, very simply.
 
We are removing critical hits ... and raising the pow of moves that used to critical hits, implementing new defense bypassing move to be able to break trough defense boosts without crits, and remaking anything that used to have something to do with crit - such as the shell armor ability - to match the boost it used to give.
Also, about creating a new meta, tell me how removing scald from the game wouldn't affect the meta. Not like it's the most used move after all.

"you don't even need to be lucky anymore you will just put things to sleep for sure after the charge."
eh ... isn't it, like, the whole point not needing to be lucky ?
You'll need to spend one turn charging sleep on hypnosis/grass whistle for exemple, to use it again. That makes it balanced + not single use.
 
We are removing critical hits ... and raising the pow of moves that used to critical hits, implementing new defense bypassing move to be able to break trough defense boosts without crits
  • you are not removing critical hits you are just renaming them with "moves that breaks trough defence boost".
  • it's true that you can't crit a neutral mon but you will do the same amount of damage on +1 or +6 mons and that's like giving unaware to some moves than why don't we give parental bond to some other moves so we can break trough focus sash cuz why not ?
Also, about creating a new meta, tell me how removing scald from the game wouldn't affect the meta. Not like it's the most used move after all.
  • tell me how creating a new meta with 100% accuracy moves, no critical hits, and a new secondary effect meccanics wouldn't affect the meta. Not like players are going to use dynamic punch, zap cannon/thunder, blizzard or hypnosis on every mon.
"you don't even need to be lucky anymore you will just put things to sleep for sure after the charge."
eh ... isn't it, like, the whole point not needing to be lucky ?
  • ehhhhh.......... yea ? so basically you are saying let's replace an "uncompetitive" move that can potentially never hit and which has no real usage right now with one that will 100% hit on the second usage ? you are not removing luck you are givin warranty that's why i said you don't even need to be lucky.the game will just transform into dynamic punch/zap cannon spam.
 
We are removing critical hits ... and raising the pow of moves that used to critical hits, implementing new defense bypassing move to be able to break trough defense boosts without crits
  • you are not removing critical hits you are just renaming them with "moves that breaks trough defence boost".
  • it's true that you can't crit a neutral mon but you will do the same amount of damage on +1 or +6 mons and that's like giving unaware to some moves than why don't we give parental bond to some other moves so we can break trough focus sash cuz why not ?It seems someone's never heard of chip away or sacred sword
Also, about creating a new meta, tell me how removing scald from the game wouldn't affect the meta. Not like it's the most used move after all.
  • tell me how creating a new meta with 100% accuracy moves, no critical hits, and a new secondary effect meccanics wouldn't affect the meta. Not like players are going to use dynamic punch, zap cannon/thunder, blizzard or hypnosis on every mon.The point is to create a new meta without luck not one without about 20% of the most viable moves(Scald, Iron Head, etc.)
"you don't even need to be lucky anymore you will just put things to sleep for sure after the charge."
eh ... isn't it, like, the whole point not needing to be lucky ?
  • ehhhhh.......... yea ? so basically you are saying let's replace an "uncompetitive" move that can potentially never hit and which has no real usage right now with one that will 100% hit on the second usage ? you are not removing luck you are givin warranty that's why i said you don't even need to be lucky.the game will just transform into dynamic punch/zap cannon spam.Lets look at the only 3 viable grasswhistle mons:
  1. Whimsi is too frail to use grasswhistle 2 turns in a row and typically just dies before it can sleep something
  2. Megasaur is generally too passive to use those 2 free turns well without switching to a shell smash mon which doesn't fit on stall
  3. Sawsbuck is when you're really grabbing for straws since it's only viable in sun which is a pretty terribad playstyle in genVI
comments in bold
 

Joim

Pixels matter
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Nothing is removed altogether from the metagame. Everything removed is re-added in a way that is not affected by luck. Even critical hits.
 
comments in bold

Belive me kiddo i know what i'm taliking about i'm a great double player and i'm good in single battles too. Anyway we will see but i bet no good player is playing this because this is not even pokemon anymore and it will reamain just a format for hipsters who thinks they don't get high on the ladder or win tournaments just because they are unlucky (spoiler : ur bad).

i agree 100% with Joim "Nothing is removed altogether from the metagame. Everything removed is re-added in a way that is not affected by luck. Even critical hits." but this is not the right way to do it imo you are rewriting the game not just "removing" the luck part of it. Anyway i'm outta here cuz apparently opionions are strictly forbiden on the internet.
 
you are not removing luck you are givin warranty
this is not the right way to do it imo you are rewriting the game not just "removing" the luck part of it.
The points system does indeed add new mechanics to the game and that's an obvious downside to it. However, it's still better than removing secondaries - doing that arguably changes the game even more. If you can come up with a better solution than remove secondaries, Joim and others will probably listen. But as for now, the points system stands as the best solution (forgot why the semi-states idea was rejected but nevermind).

you are not removing critical hits you are just renaming them with "moves that breaks trough defence boost".
IMO this is partially correct. I don't understand why crits & misses have to be replaced by all these weird mechanics. Why not simply have a power nerf, or even a points system like the secondaries? Still waiting for Joim to get back on this one..

we don't use hypnosis or grasswhistle in competitive battles(unless you are just relyig on luck) but with the charge system people will
Agree, but those two moves are fine with the new mechanics in place (at least on paper). I'm worried about the more problematic ones like OHKO. Seriously, OHKO moves are broken and probably still are even with made luckless. I just don't understand why they should be allowed here when they're not in normal play.

Joim, in order to prevent misconceptions about the idea of Skillmons, perhaps you should re-state its #1 purpose. I sometimes get confused as well, and I'm only going by what's written on your github:

"The purpose of this mod is to get rid of luck on competitive Pokémon while modding the game as least as possible."

If this is true, what's with the obsession of removing crits & misses, to the point even their stats don't exist anymore? You're aware that many moves, abilities etc that feed on crits would then have to be changed, so doesn't this go against the "while modding the game as least as possible" part? Wouldn't a better way be to leave the stats alone, and only target the luck elements they cause? Get it - removing luck ≠ removing crit/accuracy/evasion stats. They're different things.

I'm going to bring up a possible solution that I mentioned previously. For a typical move, the chance of crit is 6.25%. To remove luck caused by the crit (without removing the critRatio stat), adjust its damage output to the theoretical average:

power output = (BP * 0.9375) + (BP * 0.0625 * 1.5)

Simple. It's almost like to how you applied accuracy to base power. For a Super Luck mon, this becomes (BP * 0.875) + (BP * 0.125 * 1.5). For a Sniper mon holding Razor Claw using a 90% accurate move, ((BP * 0.875) + (BP * 0.125 * 2.25)) * 0.9. Basically:

[ (BP * (1 - ChanceOfCrit)) + (BP * ChanceOfCrit * CritMultiplier) ] * CapTo1(Accuracy)

All this needs is a slight tweak to the damage formula. It would bypass the massive mechanics and BP overhaul you currently have.
 
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Something should be changed about low acc effects mechanics.
Dynamic punch has 50% chance to do 100 pow, and thus 50% to confuse.
So it should be, here, like 100% chance to do 50 pow, and thus, 50 points in confusion only.

In short, we could apply the acc modifier to points gained as well.
 

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