Skillmons [Coming back soon™]

[Joim]

IMO this is partially correct. I don't understand why crits & misses have to be replaced by all these weird mechanics. Why not simply have a power nerf, or even a points system like the secondaries? Still waiting for Joim to get back on this one..

Going to change them on power, will explain further soon.

Agree, but those two moves are fine with the new mechanics in place (at least on paper). I'm worried about the more problematic ones like OHKO. Seriously, OHKO moves are broken and probably still are even with made luckless. I just don't understand why they should be allowed here when they're not in normal play.

Going to test them after I change the implementation and possibly ban them.

If this is true, what's with the obsession of removing crits & misses, to the point even their stats don't exist anymore? You're aware that many moves, abilities etc that feed on crits would then have to be changed, so doesn't this go against the "while modding the game as least as possible" part? Wouldn't a better way be to leave the stats alone, and only target the luck elements they cause? Get it - removing luck ≠ removing crit/accuracy/evasion stats. They're different things.

Critical hits and misses are luck elements of the game.

I'm going to bring up a possible solution that I mentioned previously. For a typical move, the chance of crit is 6.25%. To remove luck caused by the crit (without removing the critRatio stat), adjust its damage output to the theoretical average:

power output = (BP * 0.9375) + (BP * 0.0625 * 1.5)

Simple. It's almost like to how you applied accuracy to base power. For a Super Luck mon, this becomes (BP * 0.875) + (BP * 0.125 * 1.5). For a Sniper mon holding Razor Claw using a 90% accurate move, ((BP * 0.875) + (BP * 0.125 * 2.25)) * 0.9. Basically:

[ (BP * (1 - ChanceOfCrit)) + (BP * ChanceOfCrit * CritMultiplier) ] * CapTo1(Accuracy)

All this needs is a slight tweak to the damage formula. It would bypass the massive mechanics and BP overhaul you currently have.

This is actually what I was doing for crits today lol. Need to finish changes and public them.

Something should be changed about low acc effects mechanics.
Dynamic punch has 50% chance to do 100 pow, and thus 50% to confuse.
So it should be, here, like 100% chance to do 50 pow, and thus, 50 points in confusion only.

In short, we could apply the acc modifier to points gained as well.

Going to add this as well. Give me time, I've been busy at work :(

 

[MukUsedDrillPeck]

I think it would be pretty cool if Heart Swap got priority +1. Could make manaphy a counter to setup sweepers

 

[Throbulator36]

I think it would be pretty cool if Heart Swap got priority +1. Could make manaphy a counter to setup sweepers

This isn't the point of this mod

Edit:

OHKO moves now deal a fix 30% max HP damage on target. If you use Lock-On or Mind Reader before using them, they do deal 100% of max HP damage.

Fissure: 90 Base Power now. Ignores defense modifiers. If user used Lock-On or Mind Reader before, the power of this move is doubled.
Guillotine: 90 Base Power now. Ignores defense modifiers. If user used Lock-On or Mind Reader before, the power of this move is doubled.
Horn Drill: 90 Base Power now. Ignores defense modifiers. If user used Lock-On or Mind Reader before, the power of this move is doubled.
Sheer Cold: 90 Base Power now. Ignores defense modifiers. If user used Lock-On or Mind Reader before, the power of this move is doubled.

these changes are contrary to eachother
and it would be nice to remove the detailed changelog for moves and replace it with the sweeping changes for moves.

 

[skies]

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/joimslab-skillmonsou-2747

Had a fun battle with Jack Dalton :]. This is an insanely fun mod, and I'm very impressed with it! I'm really digging Mega Lopunny right now. The never-missing High Jump Kick is absolutely delicious and its crazy high Speed and Attack make it a large threat. Plus, with how common Gengar is, Lopunny can really shine thanks to its combination of Scrappy and Fake Out. Talonflame also seems to be a large threat because it can revenge kill the large portion of the offensive metagame. It doesn't really get buffed too much in terms of this metagame's buffs, but the metagame that's created is a place for it to shine.

 

[Aqqq]

Surely High Jump Kick should give some recoil even when it hits; specifically, it should normally have recoil of 5% of the user's HP (since it normally has a 10% chance of doing 50% recoil). However, if the move fails to do full damage to the opponent (because of either Ghost typing or a Protect-type move), the recoil should increase to (5+45*r)% of the user's HP, where r is the proportion of damage that was blocked (note that r can be strictly between 0 and 1 if they are using Protect multiple times in a row). Jump Kick should be similar, except with only (2.5+47.5*r)% recoil.

 

[Throbulator36]

Surely High Jump Kick should give some recoil even when it hits; specifically, it should normally have recoil of 5% of the user's HP (since it normally has a 10% chance of doing 50% recoil). However, if the move fails to do full damage to the opponent (because of either Ghost typing or a Protect-type move), the recoil should increase to (5+45*r)% of the user's HP, where r is the proportion of damage that was blocked (note that r can be strictly between 0 and 1 if they are using Protect multiple times in a row). Jump Kick should be similar, except with only (2.5+47.5*r)% recoil.

2complex it will miss sometimes so there's no point in doing this.

 

[Akumeoy]

Rules questions:

• How does gender work? Can it still be set to 'random'?
• "Moody: Increases by 2 higher stat, drecreases by 2 lower stat." / "Starf Berry: Boosts Pokémon's higher stat." Could you clarify this? What happens in the case of a tie?
• How does Quick Claw work?
• Does No Guard circumvent Air Balloon?
• Micle Berry normally only single use; here, though, it's not made explicit whether it's a consumable or not. Care to clarify?
• For moves that have a 50% or 70% chance of the secondary effect occurring, why do they have their power nerfed and the 2ndary effect chance set to 100% instead of just keeping the BP the same and using the secondary point system? TFW Diamond Storm is nerfed.
• Any particular reason that Anger Point operates off of a 10,000/2,500/1,250/625 point system when it could just as easily do with 16/4/2/1?
• Does damage use the median of the standard possible damage rolls, the minimum, the maximum, what? This could actually be used to balance the meta, if one playstyle becomes too oppressive.

If these were answered somewhere upthread, well, they're not in the OP, and half the thread seems to be arguing about stuff that doesn't apply any more so I didn't read it thoroughly.

------

I'm surprised at how little discussion there is of the actual meta.

Galvantula has effective 105/147 mixed offenses (give or take) with Compound Eyes, on top of already being the best Pokemon. Normally I would only bother mentioning the latter, but it does get Sucker Punch and Pursuit for some reason. So a surprise mixed set would be... not terrible?

With Defog giving two stat drops in this meta, Bisharp just got that much nastier. After just one Defog:

+4 252+ Atk Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 288-340 (86.2 - 101.7%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
Scizor fares a bit better.

Gravity increasing the power of attacks by 5/3 is a straight-up 66% stat boost. Jesus. Gravity could be a pretty amusing move to put on a stallbreaker; for that matter, so would Sweet Scent. Sweet Scent's double stat drops could actually make it usable on teams that like to rack up hazard damage.

With Minimize functioning as a double Cosmic Power, Clefable could be a threatening staller in this meta -- the moves that ignore defense boosts are usually poorly distributed or suboptimal choices on most 'mons. At least, assuming that defense boosting doesn't become a big thing in this meta, rendering those moves necessary.

 

[QxC4eva]

@Akumeoy: Random gender is a teambuilding feature (nothing to do with battle mechanics) so it's still available. IMO screw Moody and Quick Claw, they should be banned. No Guard *is actually not meant to* help against Air Balloon just like how it is in regular play. I agree about the Diamond Storm issue, Joim is fixing that I think. Damage rolls are currently maxed at n=100, though I kinda prefer 92.5. The Galvantula, Bisharp, Gravity & Minimize buffs are not meant to happen, and is due to the removal of accuracy/evasion stats. I hope Joim understood what I meant of removing crits & misses but NOT their stats, in which case this will be fixed. If modded correctly, discussions about this meta should be somewhat similar to OU.

Joim, for Anger Point there are way more probabilities than that, e.g. Fire Blast crit chance is 5.3125%. Just stick to the standard 100 points system with rounding.

Surely High Jump Kick should give some recoil even when it hits; specifically, it should normally have recoil of 5% of the user's HP (since it normally has a 10% chance of doing 50% recoil). However, if the move fails to do full damage to the opponent (because of either Ghost typing or a Protect-type move), the recoil should increase to (5+45*r)% of the user's HP, where r is the proportion of damage that was blocked (note that r can be strictly between 0 and 1 if they are using Protect multiple times in a row). Jump Kick should be similar, except with only (2.5+47.5*r)% recoil.

^ I was thinking the exact same thing.
Mathwise I agree HJK & JK should have 50%*(1-Acc) crash damage if they hit. If blocked by protect, this becomes 50%*(1-Acc) + 50%*Acc*ProtectSuccessRate. If they're a ghost, ProtectSuccessRate is 100%.

 

[Artemis Fowl]

Joim "Critical hits and misses are luck elements of the game."

I understand differently what he said before.
If you turn the damage calc part to a power = accuracy * usual power * (1 + critchance*0.5) at any time, there will be no miss, no critical hits, but the stats can still exist, and will reflect the game with far more accuracy than the actual accuracy management. Bc let's be realistic : +1 in accuracy isn't +1 in atk and sdef at all. -1 in evasion isn't -1 in def and sdef at all.

 

[Aqqq]

Joim "Critical hits and misses are luck elements of the game."

I understand differently what he said before.
If you turn the damage calc part to a power = accuracy * usual power * (1 + critchance*0.5) at any time, there will be no miss, no critical hits, but the stats can still exist, and will reflect the game with far more accuracy than the actual accuracy management. Bc let's be realistic : +1 in accuracy isn't +1 in atk and sdef at all. -1 in evasion isn't -1 in def and sdef at all.

To further elaborate this point, there are two reasons that +1 accuracy is not well-approximated by +1 in attack and special attack. The first is fairly minor: +1 accuracy gives a 33% increase in accuracy, not a 50% increase. The second, more important difference, is that accuracy is effectively capped at 100%, and in most circumstances it was already at or close to 100% before any boosts. This is why all the moves/abilities that improve accuracy have gotten such a huge buff from the current implementation.

While the proposal to scale damage (and secondary effects) by the hit probability is a good way of handling accuracy, let me propose an alternative that I think is also worth considering. Instead of having moves always hit but making them weaker according to their accuracy, make misses charge up like secondary effects. So, for instance, whenever you use an 85% accurate move you get 15 miss points, and when you reach 100 miss points your move misses. This will preserve the strategic choice between high damage low accuracy moves and perfect accuracy lower damage moves (e.g. Fire Blast vs Flamethrower) rather than just making one of them always be better than the other, and could give rise to some interesting tactical considerations (much as the secondary effects point system does).

 

[Joim]

Yeah I'm reworking that, should've been done already but I'm ill. Will update soon this.

 

[QxC4eva]

Joim "Critical hits and misses are luck elements of the game."

I understand differently what he said before.
If you turn the damage calc part to a power = accuracy * usual power * (1 + critchance*0.5) at any time, there will be no miss, no critical hits, but the stats can still exist, and will reflect the game with far more accuracy than the actual accuracy management. Bc let's be realistic : +1 in accuracy isn't +1 in atk and sdef at all. -1 in evasion isn't -1 in def and sdef at all.

and

To further elaborate this point, there are two reasons that +1 accuracy is not well-approximated by +1 in attack and special attack. The first is fairly minor: +1 accuracy gives a 33% increase in accuracy, not a 50% increase. The second, more important difference, is that accuracy is effectively capped at 100%, and in most circumstances it was already at or close to 100% before any boosts. This is why all the moves/abilities that improve accuracy have gotten such a huge buff from the current implementation.

While the proposal to scale damage (and secondary effects) by the hit probability is a good way of handling accuracy, let me propose an alternative that I think is also worth considering. Instead of having moves always hit but making them weaker according to their accuracy, make misses charge up like secondary effects. So, for instance, whenever you use an 85% accurate move you get 15 miss points, and when you reach 100 miss points your move misses. This will preserve the strategic choice between high damage low accuracy moves and perfect accuracy lower damage moves (e.g. Fire Blast vs Flamethrower) rather than just making one of them always be better than the other, and could give rise to some interesting tactical considerations (much as the secondary effects point system does).

thank you! =')))) <3

Finally got some back up

 

[LightningLord2]

Do Mind Reader/Lock-On still maintain their old effect that they make you hit even if the opponent uses a move such as Dig or Fly to dodge?

 

[Akashi]

joim, it seems that burn nor sleep works at all http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/joimslab-skillmonsou-2761

 

[Spyro Chris]

I have been looking for a meta like this for years, now! Is there any chance we can have a version with the current Ubers roster? Or will it stay OU strictly?

 

[Snaquaza]

I have been looking for a meta like this for ages, now! Is there any chance we can have a version with the current Ubers roster? Or will it stay OU strictly?

There's a Skillmons Ubers option too!

 

[Spyro Chris]

Oh, I apologize. I haven't seen it! Thanks. :)

 

[Amaluna]

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/joimslab-skillmonsou-2777
Turn 7;
Lucario used Aura Sphere!
The opposing Keldeo lost 1.5% of its health!
Lucario lost some of its HP!

That can't be right, right? Assuming it's a bug or so, I'd like to report it

 

[LightningLord2]

Regarding the talk about High Jump Kick - it can retain its old effect as it can miss and trigger recoil in the following situations:
-The opponent used Protect, Detect, Spiky Shield or King's Shield.
-The opponent is Ghost-Type, not affected by Foresight or Odor Sleuth and the user does not have Scrappy.
-The opponent is in a semi-invulnerable turn and the user does not have No Guard and/or didn't use Lock-On or Mind Reader the turn before.
-The opponent is not weak to Fighting and has Wonder Guard, while the user does not have Mold Breaker, Turboblaze or Teravolt.

 

[noob661]

I played a few games of this mod and really appreciate the effort to create it. What puzzles me however is that its author decided to make two major changes to the way the game is played, despite stating in opening post that the goal is to make as little alterations as possible:

1. Removal of attack misses and effective removal of high BP moves. They were distinct from fully reliable moves by providing a higher immediate punch in exchange for effectively forcing a "recharge turn" that, statistically speaking, happens once per 1/(1-accuracy) uses. The only inherently uncompetitive thing with their implementation in original gameplay is taking away player's knowledge of when exactly this "recharge turn" happens. In this mod, such an option is removed from gameplay.

2. Removal of critical hits. I actually found them to be an invaluable tool accessible to every single offensive pokemon regardless of their movepool in breaking through walls that amassed defensive boosts. Plenty Clefable vs Crocune stall wars were solved by one side eventually scoring a crit. Again, the only uncompetitive element was taking away players' knowledge of when exactly the crit happens. Right now, getting past defensive boosts requires your mons to pack a specialized move for the job. Increasing regular power of high crit moves does not have the same effect, as defensive mons can simply heal off the consistent-but-low damage.

Also, killing a few previously reliable strats such as critdra aside, the mod gives ridiculous buffs to moves that previously affected only accuracy and evasion. Defog lowering defenses or Hone Claws providing a free Work Up boost even to moves that didn't have any business benefitting from it in original gameplay are all huge changes that completely shift the metagame (Aerodactyl, Durant and Zygarde are very good in this).

It's overall my personal preference for playing "standard OU without RNG" over "new meta for which I have to adopt completely new strats". Of course I'm not the mod's creator, so it's his decision of what is and what isn't implemented. Just a noob throwing a few cents.


EDIT nevermind I just read a few posts up. Agreeing with aqqq's implementation proposal and proposing the same for critial hits (point accumulation starting from 0 upward, 6 for +0, 13 for +1, 50 for +2).

 

[FlameUser64]

I played a few games of this mod and really appreciate the effort to create it. What puzzles me however is that its author decided to make two major changes to the way the game is played, despite stating in opening post that the goal is to make as little alterations as possible:

1. Removal of attack misses and effective removal of high BP moves. They were distinct from fully reliable moves by providing a higher immediate punch in exchange for effectively forcing a "recharge turn" that, statistically speaking, happens once per 1/(1-accuracy) uses. The only inherently uncompetitive thing with their implementation in original gameplay is taking away player's knowledge of when exactly this "recharge turn" happens. In this mod, such an option is removed from gameplay.

2. Removal of critical hits. I actually found them to be an invaluable tool accessible to every single offensive pokemon regardless of their movepool in breaking through walls that amassed defensive boosts. Plenty Clefable vs Crocune stall wars were solved by one side eventually scoring a crit. Again, the only uncompetitive element was taking away players' knowledge of when exactly the crit happens. Right now, getting past defensive boosts requires your mons to pack a specialized move for the job. Increasing regular power of high crit moves does not have the same effect, as defensive mons can simply heal off the consistent-but-low damage.

Also, killing a few previously reliable strats such as critdra aside, the mod gives ridiculous buffs to moves that previously affected only accuracy and evasion. Defog lowering defenses or Hone Claws providing a free Work Up boost even to moves that didn't have any business benefitting from it in original gameplay are all huge changes that completely shift the metagame (Aerodactyl, Durant and Zygarde are very good in this).

It's overall my personal preference for playing "standard OU without RNG" over "new meta for which I have to adopt completely new strats". Of course I'm not the mod's creator, so it's his decision of what is and what isn't implemented. Just a noob throwing a few cents.


EDIT nevermind I just read a few posts up. Agreeing with aqqq's implementation proposal and proposing the same for critial hits (point accumulation starting from 0 upward, 6 for +0, 13 for +1, 50 for +2).

Point accumulation for crits should logically be from 50, same as others, but yes I agree that's a better implementation.

 

[noob661]

Point accumulation for crits should logically be from 50, same as others, but yes I agree that's a better implementation.

50 does make sense from statistical standpoint, but note that crit points would be common for all mons in the team. The first crit would be scored by 9th attack, earlier if you used a +crit move or trolled your opponent with scope lens on one of your mons (probably unviable). I'm just afraid having a guaranteed crit so early in the game would break certain playstyles. It's something that should be tested by high-level players.

 

[FlameUser64]

50 does make sense from statistical standpoint, but note that crit points would be common for all mons in the team. The first crit would be scored by 9th attack, earlier if you used a +crit move or trolled your opponent with scope lens on one of your mons (probably unviable). I'm just afraid having a guaranteed crit so early in the game would break certain playstyles. It's something that should be tested by high-level players.

Eh, it just guarantees that a Focus Energy makes you insta-crit.

 

[Excitement]

This sounds pretty fun! It sounds like this has the potential to be quite a meta once all the kinks have been worked out.

 

[Artemis Fowl]

"Also, killing a few previously reliable strats such as critdra aside, the mod gives ridiculous buffs to moves that previously affected only accuracy and evasion. Defog lowering defenses or Hone Claws providing a free Work Up boost even to moves that didn't have any business benefitting from it in original gameplay are all huge changes that completely shift the metagame (Aerodactyl, Durant and Zygarde are very good in this)."

Yeah, this has been discussed lately and Joim said he was working on another implementation, which several people here proposed.