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Skymin Discussion Thread

diablojd05 said:
Isn't blissey a counter to this thing? What can Shaymin really do to it, it will either get thunder waved or ice beamed. I don't see this thing being uber with Blissey around.
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Shaymin can drop its SpD on the switch to make it have it almost as low as its Def. Depending upon how much health it has left (considering that we aren't working with a particular move set), it can either Air Slash flinch it until a Seed Flare will KO it or just Seed Flare again for a 2HKO.
 
I would like to note that the best set for the Choice Specs set is:

Timid / Modest @ Choice Specs
252 SpA / 252 Spe / 6 HP
- Hidden Power [Ground]
- Seed Flare
- Air Slash
- Psychic

Hidden Power [Fire/Ice] is no longer needed as much as it now has Air Slash in its arsenal to decimate other Grass-types who may otherwise wall it or induce status. Hidden Power [Ground] with Timid nature allows you to outspeed Standard Choice Scarf Heatran and 1HKO it.

Seed Flare is the standard STAB attacking move of this set sporting an amazing 120 BP as well as an 80% chance of a two stage Special Defense drop for the enemy, which means the next Seed Flare will hit for two times the damage. This attack is devastating, with some Stealth Rock support Seed Flare has a possible chance of 2HKO on 148 HP Bold Blissey. A Modest Nature ensures the OHKO with Stealth Rock.

Air Slash is yet another new move that Shaymin gets to play with but this time with STAB and a deadly 60% flinching ratio which makes this move very dangerous indeed. Now allowing Skymin hit the likes of Celebi it oblivion who may otherwise wall it.

Psychic hits the Poison-types that resist Seed Flare such as Crobat, Weezing, and Muk for super-effective damage, and as a small added bonus has a 20% chance of a minor Special Defense drop.

Other options: Shaymin has a rather limited movepool but Leaf Storm and Grasswhistle deserve some note; Leaf Storm over Psychic leaves you weaker against the Poison-types who resist Seed Flare primarily Crobat, Muk, and Weezing but allows you to get that extra 20 BP in case you don't think you can score an OHKO on something with Seed Flare. Grasswhistle might be useful in the last slot and can be used against major threats or in tight situations where you can't OHKO something, be weary of the Speed though. Hidden Power [Fire] is still an option over hidden Power [Ground] because it lands the OHKO on Scizor, Forretress, and allows you to dent Skarmory and Bronzong but is not recommended due to Heatran.

Counters: A very bulky Curse Muk is a solid counter to Skymin resisting Seed Flare and making a Specs hidden Power [Ground] at least a 3HKO from the Modest variant and can OHKO back with Gunk Shot. Standard Curse Registeel is very nice counter for this as it has Clear Body and can take NVE damage from Seed Flare as well as make Hidden Power [Ground] a 3HKO and can OHKO back with a super-effective Ice Punch. Regice too is a great counter due to astronomically high Special Defense levels and Clear Body to avoid the Special Defense drop and can destroy Skymin with Ice Beam.
 
Psychic would probably be for Crobat, as Specs Air Slash will not OHKO and Crobat will OHKO back with Brave Bird.

I don't really see this thing in ubers. Sure, it might not have many "counters" according to the archaic definition, but in my theorymonning head it looks like it can be dealt with easily enough.

But of course, we'll wait until we can play test it ^_^
 
First Seed Flare does 32-38%. Second does 65-77%.

On average, it will 2HKO even without Stealth Rock up. If Blissey can't take it on, what can!?
 
Seed Flare has 8 PP which I think is important when it is resisted by so much, unlike, say, Draco Meteor which will massively dent basically anything that isn't steel type. If you throw around random Seed Flares, there's probably a good chance that some of them will be entirely wasted against things like Registeel, Heatran or Zapdos.


Blissey comes in, SpDef down, Air Slash flinch, Air Slash flinch, AS KO
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Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure there's like a 20% chance of this scenario actually happening. =/


Anyway, at the very very least we are probably more prepared to deal with Skymin than with, like, Darkrai, right? >_>
 
I see no reason to use Psychic now that Heracross is easily killed with Air Slash
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I dunno, I'd still use Psychic if only for Crobat, Muk and company. It's mostly filler, but I guess it'll be marginally more useful than Leaf Storm.

I definatley think Sky Forme Shaymin deserves some testing. Stealth Rock weak, below average defences, 5 weaknesses (including a 4x weakness to the ever common Ice Beam) and a shallow movepool suggest that we should at least give it a shot in OU. It may turn out to be obviously uber but it's our job to determine that without relying on theorymon.

Also worthy of note:

Serebii said:
In order to get the Key Item called the Glacidia Flower from this girl in Floaroma Town, you need to have the Shaymin given away at the 11th Movie in 2008.
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Now I'm not certain if this means that only the Movie Shaymin can become Skymin but if so then there's a chance there'll be some serious IV/Hidden Power limitations to consider too.
 
O, a 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpDef Careful Muk (414 HP / 247 Atk / 328 SpDef) can pretty easily deal with all versions of this Skymin. The most dangerous would be a Modest Specs version (a stretch already because I have a feeling Timid is going to be the popular one just to outspeed Modest ScarfTran and Azelf / Starmie).

Still, even a Modest Specs version is dealt with easily enough.

Muk is never 2HKOed by HP Ground, and can always 1HKO back with Gunk Shot.

Granted, Gunk Shot is only 70% accurate, but this is easily dealt with with smart playing. If HP Ground does that much damage, you know it is Specs and can switch to whatever to set up your strategy, and a Muk at 55% (with Leftovers recovery, though it could also run Zoom Lens and increase Gunk Shot to 84%) is not a terrible sacrifice for that knowledge.

Muk also takes Seed Flares like a champ (since I seriously doubt Shaymin will use HP Ground first due to the high risk associated with being locked into a Ground move).

Seed Flare does a maximum of 129 damage to it the first time, and a maximum of 258 damage to it if it gets the -SpDef drop. Muk will always survive this with Leftovers, even with Stealth Rock down.

Muk basically gives you a 70% "counter" if Shaymin uses HP Ground. However, if it does, you are really at the advantage since you can set up your own strategy using that information.

If Shaymin uses Seed Flare, the only way Muk loses is if Seed Flare hits the first time and lowers Special Defense. Then Seed Flare hits and Gunk Shot misses. And then Seed Flare hits again. That's a .85 * . 8 * .85 * . 3 * . 85 = 14.7% percent chance. Meaning if Specs Shaymin uses Seed Flare, Muk is a "counter" 85% of the time.

Now, if Specs Shaymin decides to run Psychic (I dunno here it might be common it might not be), then Muk has issues. Muk can only not be 2HKOed with Leftovers against Timid Specs Shaymin, and that is only slightly above average, so if you get unlucky, it will be 2HKOed.

Of course, this is also assuming that Shaymin is at 100% health. If it isn't (and something simple like Stealth Rock is down and Shaymin is at 75%), Muk can just use Poison Jab and be a 100% "counter."

Even with Muk's slight concern with Specs Psychic, I think it can effectively deal with Shaymin since only the Specs Version is a concern. I've also always thought that "countering" Choice Pokemon isn't about establishing a perfect paper counter, since with Choice Pokemon you almost always play around them with many members on your team. Muk is basically one candidate to be a perfect "scout" to gather information on Shaymin.

If it is Specs, deal with it accordingly (switch in DD Tar (psychic / air slash), switch in DD Gyara / Mence / Nite (HP Ground), switch in Crobat or stay in (Seed Flare)). If it is anything else...beat it.

Go Muk!
 
Why is there so much doubt that you won't be able to battle sky-forme shaymin in wifi?

Serebii has a picture of a floatzel battling a sky-forme shaymin and the wifi symbol is in the upper right hand corner.
 
I fixed my post, I can't believe I forgot about those Poison-types.

Anyways, I think we should test this before we make any decisions since theorymon has been know to fail in the past. Shaymin actually has pretty good Defenses for a fast sweeper sporting a somewhat decent 70 / 70 but you have to remember it does have 100 Base HP.

It's probably going to be difficult to get a nicely IV'd Shaymin if infact only the movie Shaymin can turn into Skymin.

@ Aldaron: So we have Muk and Ice Punch Registeel as possible counters, but really any decent team can play around with it and predict its attacks while scouting for what set it's using. Yes, I'm sensing the notion for Timid to be the popular version much rather than Modest.

I'm going to start calling this thing Skymin since I believe Shaymin should refer to the original form.
 
The Darkhorse Trainer said:
Why is there so much doubt that you won't be able to battle sky-forme shaymin in wifi?

Serebii has a picture of a floatzel battling a sky-forme shaymin and the wifi symbol is in the upper right hand corner.
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Well, in the platinum thread, it was confirmed that you cannot use the sky forme in Wifi battles. This may be incorrect, but I'm going by that thread.
 
I personally think just by looking at Shaymin Sky Forms' base stats right now, it could work in OU standard as stated before Registeel could counter it.
 
Lack of Roost has really changed my opinion of this thing. There goes my annoying-as-hell Leech Seed/Flinch Slash/Sub/Roost set right out the window.
 
Did a TM/HM list come out yet for Sky Shaymin yet, if not then we can't assume that Sky Shaymin doesn't get Roost, not until they release a TM/HM list.
 
252 HP / 252 SDef Calm Regice is a great counter, right? Though it doesn't resist Seed Flare, Clear Body makes the scary stuff go away.

Anyway, this is starting to sound like the Rhyperior discussions and "GyaraVire's unstoppable!", in that though this sounds like it's correct, this could all come back to bite us on the ass in a short while. Though I highly doubt it.

Can we throw him straight in Ubers and add him to the Suspect Test lineup? That seems to make sense considering his Darkrai-like stat distribution. This is also probably not as controversial as putting him in OU first. It accomplishes the same thing (actual play testing) without pissing off anyone.

Don't forget something: Say, if with Skymin stall teams become less viable, he can very easily plop a Choice scarf on himself and still pose a big threat. All of the counters that can outspeed him ("Heatran", Crobat, etc) will have to deal with one of the game's fastest Choice Scarfers hitting them twice.

At the very least, Seed Flare has only 8 PP, so you can stall it by switching out of the Special falls.

I wonder if allowing him and deoxys-s at the same time would help. d-s helps keep him in check with Ice Beam, right?
 
You guys have no idea how this is going to turn out. I honestly would love to use this in ubers, much less OU. I don't either, but testing will be fun.
 
'Uber' Registeel could work, too. Clear Body + 80/150/150 Defenses + Ice Punch is pretty cool. We would have to go damage calcs to see how much Hidden Power Ground 70 does (Assuming Skymin has access to that), but I can see Registeel fighting a pretty decent role. Thunderwave and Stealth Rock support moves both totally cripple Skymin and it's final attacking move can be whatever.

We'll see, but who knows... I wonder what else Registeel will be able to neuter in Platinum...
 
O, right, Registeel is like the perfect "counter" with Clear Body.

I forgot about that. Looks like this has its perfect "paper counter" ^_^

Thunder Wave / Ice Punch / Stealth Rock / Explosion + Leftovers Registeel for the win in a platinum-included metagame!

Counters Skymin...Supports the team with Thunder Wave + Stealth Rock + high Special Defense / good Defense and cleans up issues with Explosion (to make sure this isn't an overly centralized Skymin counter). Nice.
 
One would think Metagross would counter it decently. Clear Body to avoid the Seed Flare Special Defense drop, Bullet Punch to bypass Air Slash flinching. And of course, Ice Punch. One would need to be aware of nasty Hidden Power Ground that'll probably be used thanks to increasing Heatran sightings.

Theorymon. Wee.
 
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