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Skymin Discussion Thread

Intro1827 said:
I REALLY can't see that set working, no matter what. So many things resist it, and you can't just switch in and out because of Stealth Rock. ScarfDos (very underrated Poké) counters that, as well as Regice, and many others can deal with it
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Scarf anything w/ HP ice kills that. Ice shard says hello, zappy and zong say hi to walling you.

BTW, synthesis isn't exactly the best recovery move, not worth the slot over sub/HP
 
1059860 said:
Even if you predicted a switchin, are you going to attempt to kill Shaymin? Don't tell me can't use my brain. Shaymin's faster and kills Heatran. I'm talking about non-Choice version of Shaymin.
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Ah, was talking about timid scarfran obviously. Common sense-- No way you would bring a normal heatran in on shaymin, right?
 
I'm so sad. If this thing catches on, my MVP is completely destroyed. Goodbye, forever Gastrodon. Celebi was annoying, but I could handle it because of GK's 60 BP on Gastrodon, plus I usually had up a couple of stockpiles by the time Celebi came in. With Seed flare it doesn't really matter.
 
i have started playing shoddy again, and i beleive that skymin is uber, BUT only if used smartly. many people leave in skymin against heatran and rotom thinking they are faster only to be killed. skymin needs to be brought in on someone who cannot break a sub, or who will automatically switch (swampy). sub on switch and start wrecking people in an extremely unfair way.
 
ultimifier said:
i have started playing shoddy again, and i beleive that skymin is uber, BUT only if used smartly. many people leave in skymin against heatran and rotom thinking they are faster only to be killed. skymin needs to be brought in on someone who cannot break a sub, or who will automatically switch (swampy). sub on switch and start wrecking people in an extremely unfair way.
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This can be said about almost any pokemon, this is the basis of competitive battling. Prediction and setup are key factors to a battle.
 
what i mean is. IF USED CORRECTLY he actually can not be stopped at all. every pokemon in OU has a 100% counter pretty much, but no one can counter shaymin... aka he is in the same boat as garchomp as even if you try to counter him, luck can and will prevail a significant portion of the time
 
BrightPowder is a luck item, which is mostly forbidden, especially in Ladder battles and tournaments, so we don't need to worry about that.
 
1059860 said:
BrightPowder is a luck item, which is mostly forbidden, especially in Ladder battles and tournaments, so we don't need to worry about that.
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Yeah, so do you mind telling me where you ever heard that BrightPowder was banned anywhere? Just to save you some time, I'll tell you myself; it's not banned anywhere.

Also, come on, why are people still talking about this thing's tier status? It's been on smogon's shoddy server for less than 24 hours for god's sake. Give the thing some time, geez. It's not rocket science, a new Pokemon in the metagame is obviously going to cause changes, so take some time to adapt to those changes instead of spouting "OMG th1s th1ng 1s UB3R" (fuck this was painful to type). Whoever keeps spouting stuff like this may find that they don't have a huge amount of trouble with Skymin when they actually face it.

I find it weird that a lot of people who are saying that they've actually played with shoddy's platinum changes are also saying that Skymin wasn't causing them too much trouble. Then a lot of the people that haven't said that they've played (aka are most likely theorymoning the thing to death), are saying that it's uber. That is not cool.
 
I don't really understand that sentence but if you're saying that that's what we should do, then my response is "no."

I'm not sure why you're even bringing it up, considering that every handful of posts is someone saying "... but we haven't played with the damn thing (enough) yet" and I'd assume that should have been drilled into all of our heads by now.
 
Okay, I WAS wrong, Registeel's OU Tank set cannot be 2KO'd by a Skymin's Earth Power + Seed Flare, however, that still doesn't change what I've said already. Note that I'm not taking any sides, as with Garchomp, I really don't care about its status.

Reopening old wounds, I'm going back into Garchomp. Garchomp caused the metagame to overcentralize on itself, only a few counters existed for it and they all had a chance of being weakened to the point where that Garchomp could KO them all. Registeel and Regice well somewhat countering Skymin just as Mesprit and Bronzong when Garchomp was around. So, Skymin doesn't get a move to boost its Special Attack two stages? Seed Flare from a base 125 Special Attack with an 80% of a -2 Special Defense drop can cause even the bulkiest of walls to think twice before switching in. Tell me this :/, if you were running Skymin and you know damn well that Registeel and Regice could be running around, wouldn't you carry something to kill those off? If you have Stealth Rock up, Scizor can either setup a secondary sweep, or, do some damage and Baton Pass a Substitute to Skymin, allowing it to attack safely while getting rid of its "counter".

Basicly, in the right hands, Skymin can sweep whole teams just as Garchomp could be if it gets up a Swords Dance with a Yache Berry and like Garchomp there's at least a 95% chance that you'll lose a Pokemon to it if your opponent knows how to use it.

Now, you might say "Well, any Pokemon can be dangerous if someone can use it right". That is correct, however, you need to remove ALL of its counters from play before it can sweep. Dragon Dance Tyranitar for example can outrun a lot of speedier Pokemon and double its already monsterous attack after 2 Dragon Dances and it gets Taunt to mess up anything that tries to cripple it. Now, let's look into its counters... Donphan, Rhyperior and Hippowdon are good counters for the ones lacking Ice Beam and Swampert can counter Ice Beam versions if they lack Hidden Power Grass. Bronzong is an all around counter for it. There are more sets and more counters. That's a lot to look out for, isn't it?

Skymin has only Regice and Registeel as exact counters and eventually, someone is going to utalize Quick Attack-Yache Berry as a way to take out Weavile leads if that is Skymin will ever lead >.>. Registeel has a lot of things that stop it, Will-o-Wisp, Reflect and most Ground moves will eventually wear it down to 45% which is the minumum for a Life Orb'd Earth Power to KO the standard OU tank set. Regice has a weakness to Stealth Rock which will almost always be used with Skymin and its it's Poisoned, or, hit with a Fighting Move from the likes of Heracross, Infernape, Hitmontop (yes, Hitmontop), etc.

Now, onto its actual movepool-

Air Slash- A STAB, 75 BP Flying move with a 60% chance of a flinch, basicly making ScarfKiss and ParaHaxKiss cry due to its 127 Base Speed, slight ability to take hits and a base 125 Special Attack to go from.

Seed Flare- A STAB, base 120 Grass Move with an 80% chance of a -2 Special Defense drop. That's nearly idential to using Nasty Plot. There's only a 15% chance of a miss, so, if I'm doing this right, Seed Flare has a 15% chance of missing and a 20% chance of not lowering the Special Defense of the switch in, so, overall, Shaymin has a 65% chance of KOing a bulky wall with Seed Flare after it switches in. Like those odds, eh? Well, consider that there's a 120 BP, STAB Grass move (which has good coverage) coming at you from a 125 base Special Attack, won't that dent something... hard?

Psychic- Skymin's secondary option of taking out Gengar, however, with Seed Flare + Air Slash already ruining its switch in, Psychic is only worth considering on a full Specs set without Hidden Power / Leaf Storm.

Earth Power- This would've screwed over nearly any arguemnt against Skymin since now, Metagross AND Heatran can't counter it fully. Earth Power takes out Fire, Steel and nearly anything that resists Seed Flare and Air Slash.

Substitute and Leech Seed- Ugh, faster than Sceptile and a bit more bulkier and powerful. Sceptile can only run a Swords Dance set better and then you realize that Skymin gets a Physical movepool as well as Swords Dance :/.

Hidden Power- Coverage at its fullest, Skymin can now hit what everything else resists.

101 Subs to SubSeed Blissey with, Quick Attack to function as an lead-anti with a Yache Berry and of course, a large base Speed and Special Attack. Not saying it should be Uber for this, but, damn, that's a lot.

Just my two cents, many things will need to overcentralize their own usual EVs, movesets, etc. just to keep it at bay.

EDIT: Another thing, typing :/. Shymin has a neutrality to Electric, resistance to Fighting and Water while being immune to Ground, that blocks the all common Surf, Thunderbolts, Waterfall, Earthquake, Earth Power, etc.
 
I have never swept nor been swept by this thing in about ~2 hours of playing. I have faced one in every battle and I have one on my team. Usually, it kills 1-3 pokes and dies. It's just not a garchomp in terms of bulk. Thing about this. Skymin will be opperating off 75% health 90% of the time due to rocks. It also has 75 defenses. Now garchomp, took 6% from rocks. He also has better (yes better) defenses than swampert. That means anything non-boosted or ice will not ohko him. Basically, when holding a yache, garchomp was not ohkoable by anything un-boosted. Now, skymin, opperating off 75% or less hp, will be ohkoed by dang near any neutural hit. As someone said before, pursuit does 60~ percent to a fleeing skymin. That means one pursuit kills it if it switches on rocks both times. Just some things to ponder.
 
I...am unimpressed by its preformance. My squad is quickly tossed together out of Honchkrow, Kingdra, Mamoswine, Clefable, Cresselia and Skymin, and so far, my Skymin gets less then 10% of the KO's this team scores, while less then 2% of the kills made against this team were courtesy of Skymin. Skymin's main problem is that on paper, those defences look pretty thin, and in practice...they're still not much, mainly because you don't often invest in them. That, coupled with SRock weak, Sandstorm and Hail hitting it, and tremendous vulnerability when hit with paralysis, coupled with weaknesses to Ice, Rock, Fire and to a lesser extent Flying and Poison, make it hard to actually get in...and not meet your friendly neighborhood Mamoswine/CBDonphan/Weavile right afterwards. With residual damage stacking up swiftly against it, it is kind of hard to keep switching in and out.
This makes pure sweeping...hard. Random scarfers are also a pain as long as they can switch in on one of his moves.

That said, it might be the fact that everyone got ways to deal with it now.
 
In response to SS4azelf:

No it cannot sweep a team like Yache Chomp. Garchomp was able to stay in against his counters due to relative bulkiness, and yache berry. Skymin cannot stay in against its counters and is thus forced to switch. This might not be a problem, but SR is used on nearly every team which limits Skymins number of switch ins.

Now sure Skymin can use Yache Berry but without a boosting move it will lack the power needed to 2HKO certain things. If it opts for anything other than Yache than it is forced out against numerous things and must suffer the consequence of losing 25% of its health next switch in. Also Skymin isn't terribly bulky meaning you can really only switch it in on ground/nfe moves... unless you want a crippled Skymin.

Anyway I love how some people are saying "so we have to use X Pokemon to counter it? Overcentralizing!!!!!!!!!!!!"

Even if Skymin had only one true counter that is still one more counter than Garchomp, Gengar, and Lucario have. Meanwhile Tangerine already made an amazing thread on why we need to stop relying on true counters. Not everything has a true counter, and not everything without a true counter is Uber.
 
Certainly many eager players overshot what Shaymin-S could do, but that doesn't mean we need to start on what it can't do. Over a year ago Garchomp was "disappointing" while Specsmence was the Second Coming.
 
@azelfs post

a counter is something that can swich on a pokemon and take little to no damage and then KO it.

there are no pokemon like that for garchomp

other then that i agrea with you.
 
SS4Azelf said:
Okay, I WAS wrong, Registeel's OU Tank set cannot be 2KO'd by a Skymin's Earth Power + Seed Flare, however, that still doesn't change what I've said already. Note that I'm not taking any sides, as with Garchomp, I really don't care about its status.

Reopening old wounds, I'm going back into Garchomp. Garchomp caused the metagame to overcentralize on itself, only a few counters existed for it and they all had a chance of being weakened to the point where that Garchomp could KO them all. Registeel and Regice well somewhat countering Skymin just as Mesprit and Bronzong when Garchomp was around. So, Skymin doesn't get a move to boost its Special Attack two stages? Seed Flare from a base 125 Special Attack with an 80% of a -2 Special Defense drop can cause even the bulkiest of walls to think twice before switching in. Tell me this :/, if you were running Skymin and you know damn well that Registeel and Regice could be running around, wouldn't you carry something to kill those off? If you have Stealth Rock up, Scizor can either setup a secondary sweep, or, do some damage and Baton Pass a Substitute to Skymin, allowing it to attack safely while getting rid of its "counter".

Any good player will attempt to remove their core pokemon's counter, so this argument is irrelevant. Am I going to try to SubCM Raikou sweep knowing that the opponent has Blissey? No, I'm going to get rid of it with something like Dugtrio or a physical pokemon.

Basicly, in the right hands, Skymin can sweep whole teams just as Garchomp could be if it gets up a Swords Dance with a Yache Berry and like Garchomp there's at least a 95% chance that you'll lose a Pokemon to it if your opponent knows how to use it.

Wrong again. Shaymin has base 120 sp.atk, 10 points lower than Garchomp's attack, it has worse defenses in all aspects, and SR + Sand prevent it from taking full advantage of a Yache Berry. Besides that, if it gives up Life Orb, then it isn't hitting nearly as hard and MUST use a Growth set to deal as much damage, thus sacrificing coverage.

Now, you might say "Well, any Pokemon can be dangerous if someone can use it right". That is correct, however, you need to remove ALL of its counters from play before it can sweep. Dragon Dance Tyranitar for example can outrun a lot of speedier Pokemon and double its already monsterous attack after 2 Dragon Dances and it gets Taunt to mess up anything that tries to cripple it. Now, let's look into its counters... Donphan, Rhyperior and Hippowdon are good counters for the ones lacking Ice Beam and Swampert can counter Ice Beam versions if they lack Hidden Power Grass. Bronzong is an all around counter for it. There are more sets and more counters. That's a lot to look out for, isn't it?

Skymin has only Regice and Registeel as exact counters and eventually, someone is going to utalize Quick Attack-Yache Berry as a way to take out Weavile leads if that is Skymin will ever lead >.>. Registeel has a lot of things that stop it, Will-o-Wisp, Reflect and most Ground moves will eventually wear it down to 45% which is the minumum for a Life Orb'd Earth Power to KO the standard OU tank set. Regice has a weakness to Stealth Rock which will almost always be used with Skymin and its it's Poisoned, or, hit with a Fighting Move from the likes of Heracross, Infernape, Hitmontop (yes, Hitmontop), etc.

Exact counters flew out the window since Diamond and Pearl were released. SD Flame Orb Guts Heracross has like no counters, but it can be worn down very quickly with passive damage, and the same can be said of Shaymin. Regice only risks being 2HKOd by Seed Flare if it chooses to go Bold and no Sp.Def EVs. Throw in some EVs, like we have done with Blissey, and it regains its ability to wall it effectively. What you are saying here is that basically, Skymin's counters can be worn down so Skymin can sweep. This can be done for any other sweeper as well.

Now, onto its actual movepool-

Air Slash- A STAB, 75 BP Flying move with a 60% chance of a flinch, basicly making ScarfKiss and ParaHaxKiss cry due to its 127 Base Speed, slight ability to take hits and a base 125 Special Attack to go from.

Again, base 120 sp.atk. Also, 75 defenses are not really that impressive, 100 HP is all that saves it - and that can be revoked by Stealth Rock.

Seed Flare- A STAB, base 120 Grass Move with an 80% chance of a -2 Special Defense drop. That's nearly idential to using Nasty Plot. There's only a 15% chance of a miss, so, if I'm doing this right, Seed Flare has a 15% chance of missing and a 20% chance of not lowering the Special Defense of the switch in, so, overall, Shaymin has a 65% chance of KOing a bulky wall with Seed Flare after it switches in. Like those odds, eh? Well, consider that there's a 120 BP, STAB Grass move (which has good coverage) coming at you from a 125 base Special Attack, won't that dent something... hard?

Seed Flare is great, but it will only get you so far. Blissey, Registeel, smart switching, etc.

Psychic- Skymin's secondary option of taking out Gengar, however, with Seed Flare + Air Slash already ruining its switch in, Psychic is only worth considering on a full Specs set without Hidden Power / Leaf Storm.

Even on a Specs set it is a poor choice. Psychic has awful coverage and simply provides Skymin's counters with more opportunities to switch in.

Earth Power- This would've screwed over nearly any arguemnt against Skymin since now, Metagross AND Heatran can't counter it fully. Earth Power takes out Fire, Steel and nearly anything that resists Seed Flare and Air Slash.

It doesn't, however, hit Bronzong, who can take its special hits quite well.

Substitute and Leech Seed- Ugh, faster than Sceptile and a bit more bulkier and powerful. Sceptile can only run a Swords Dance set better and then you realize that Skymin gets a Physical movepool as well as Swords Dance :/.

Subseed will lack the power of purely offensive Skymin, so handling it should be even easier.

Hidden Power- Coverage at its fullest, Skymin can now hit what everything else resists.

Hidden Power's only purpose is for coverage anyway, so this is not unique to Skymin.

101 Subs to SubSeed Blissey with, Quick Attack to function as an lead-anti with a Yache Berry and of course, a large base Speed and Special Attack. Not saying it should be Uber for this, but, damn, that's a lot.

Just my two cents, many things will need to overcentralize their own usual EVs, movesets, etc. just to keep it at bay.

EDIT: Another thing, typing :/. Shymin has a neutrality to Electric, resistance to Fighting and Water while being immune to Ground, that blocks the all common Surf, Thunderbolts, Waterfall, Earthquake, Earth Power, etc.

Notice that several of those attacks are paired with Rock / Ice attacks, so it still need to be wary when switching in.
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Though nearly all of these arguments are valid, few of them can be said exclusively of Skymin. Besides, a multitude of people have mentioned that it is an overhyped pokemon.
 
@Azelf's post

Seed Flare exceeds Nasty Plot/Tail Glow in 1 way: It does SEVERE DAMAGE while taking the effect of a Pseudo-NP/TG
 
What about SkyScarf? With 188 EVs it hits 505 Speed with Scarf. This can outspeed everything (not sure about other Scarfed pokes though) you can put the full 252 EVs if you want, not sure about if the EVs would be soo useful somewhere else.
 
I'm kind with brawley on the whole "denting teams not sweeping them" mindset for skymin. but seriously it does seem kinda broken.

then again once I can actually test my shit we'll see if I still feel like it's uber. I guess registeel usage will go up.

as far as skyscarf, I dunno about it, seeing as lo or something will allow you to switch moves for switching around between air slash and seed flare as to not waste pp or something. then again I'm a proponent of modest scarfjolt (great pokemon actually) so I guess it could work. sr weak deters me slightly though.
 
I've had great success with Aerodactyl as a counter. The only thing that will beat him is a Skyscarf. if I can predict him coming in, it's a dead man/woman/grass thingy. Ice Fang on Aero with LO and full attack EVs does 496-584 damage on it. I think, however, that it should go uber. Skyscarf is a fucking beast and scares nearly everything in the game.
 
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