Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v6 (Usage stats in post #408)

[Monky25]

I dont know why but all the f***ing smogon council ban offensive things but not defensive mons. Always has the fucking excuse in "they contrain teambuilder", "they dont have counter", "they are fun to play", "presure stall cores" but shit like Toxapex and Clef doesnt get a suspect test ever.
Pre DLC meta was Teleport Clef everywhere fucking >50% usage rate, but council was "we can't ban clef, he is finch favorite mon", "he help the meta to be more stall oriented", "we have to wait a fucking meta to be playable again bc we dont ban the pinky thing" or something like "PUPL>ladder" in the case of arena trap ban.
I like to play with rules but the council doesnt give a shit about making the meta fun to play, the want match of 100 turn at minimun to be "competitive"
The only reason i always play in lower tier instead of OU is bc the 50% of the team are always the same shit: stall, sand balance, some form of hyperoffence and this was the same from the start of SSOU
Edit: this is going to be banned soon bc mod dont like to talk about how crappy the council banning system is.. =(

Look, I get it, you're frustrated at the current tiering system and probably wish for pex to be sent to ubers faster than you can say egg. I agree, defensive mons like pex definitely need more attention and i firmly believe pex is an unhealthy pokemon for this current metagame. However, the way your argument is structured comes off as angry ad irrational. I've been in debates before, and rhetoric is very important in making an argument. Insulting the council and coming off as very enrgaed doesn't help your argument too much. Also, to add on, the main reason offensive threats are banned more than defensive threats is because its much more easy to identify whether an offensive mon is broken. For an offensive mon to be broken, it just basically needs to warp teambuilding to have dedicated checks to it and those checks may not even be that useful in dealing with the threat. For defensive mons, its much harder to identify what makes it restricting and it takes time to truly see if the defensive mon warps the metagame. There are many people, including several council members, who are definitely keeping an eye on toxapex and it should be given a suspect very soon. This is coming from your average ladder player, not some top player, about how while not everyone agrees with the council's decisions, most of their choices have been very good so far.

As for clefable, the main reason it wasn't looked at too much was because we didn't know whether we should ban clef or teleport. Clef was the only problematic user of it, but once we got rid of all the immediately broken stuff DLC was upon us, so it would be a good idea to see if other mons with teleport are too much or is it just clef specifically. Also, I always prefer a suspect test, even if the outcome is obvious. The community as a whole should decide what stays and goes, not a small group of top players.

Now that all the crazy crap like mag and cinderace are gone, many more players are talking about how pex is beginning to be problematic. Many posts in the last thread and this one have brought up pex as an issue. Pex has enough people wanting to hold a suspect for it, so im sure pex will be deal with, though preferably sooner than later so we can get rid of this crap. I'd honestly even argue doing a pex suspect BEFORE the cinderace retest, as it find it to be a major problem. While pex is one of the better cinderace checks, I honestly doubt that an outcome of a retest on cinderace would change whether pex would still be here or in ubers. In fact, I think that Another survey should be held where players can vote on whether we should suspect pex or rested cinderace first. That definitely makes it more inclusive.

All in all, I get your frustrations, but when making an argument make sure it comes off as informed and detailed so others can see your point better. You missed a lot of key points, like why clef was held off on testing or that none of the council has a problem with pex. Hope this helps clear some stuff up.

 

[Finchinator]

Toxapex deserves to be discussed and potentially (this hinges entirely on the state of the metagame, which is still developing) looked into once the Cinderace retest happens.

Toxapex’s ability to withstand some of the strongest attacks the tier has to throw at it is impressive, but what’s even better is how great it is at forcing status and Knock Offs on opposing Pokemon. This means that you have to run one of a small pool of status absorbers or regularly risk your offensive Pokemon to burn, poison, and/or Knock Off.

Toxapex stands out as a relatively low risk utility presence while also accomplishing so much defensively. I understand this is harder to pinpoint than offensive Pokemon that may be broken, but it should be something we examine regardless for the sake of the metagame. People are worried that offensive Pokemon cause restrictive defensive teambuilding and should be banned because of this, but Toxapex forces repeated high risk plays around status/Knocks OR use of one of a very limited pool of Pokemon that can shrug off the status and render it passive.

Last generation, Gliscor, Misty Terrain, Reuniclus, Mega Alakazam, Magma Storm Heatran, and many more options took advantage of Toxapex nicely and this balanced it easily. This generation, these Pokemon are not yet released. They may balance it in the future when they are released, but theorymon is irrelevant and we need to look at the current metagame more than anything else.

With this said, people need to stop acting like there was any grounds to act on it instead of Cinderace. That’s a ridiculous proposition. There have been virtually no messages to the council about it and only a handful of posts (mainly including my previous one). If you want something to be done, post yourselves and be civil instead of taking shots in the dark at people doing thankless jobs. There is no agenda to preserve stall (by the way, Toxapex is far better on balance, not stall) and the best way to prompt change is to be constructive, not destructive. I also echo the entirety of Jordy’s post.

 

[BigFatMantis]

I don't see any reason to wait for a Cinderace re-test to happen before testing Toxapex. It's not like Cinderace ever really did anything to Toxapex except for the occasional Zen Headbutt that barely does 50% and leaves it open to scald burn (which doesn't get erased when it reverts to fire type).

If we wait too long to test Toxapex, then it won't be worth testing period because of the new DLC bringing in plenty of counters to it (Zapdos, Thundurus, Tapu Koko, Tapu Lele, etc.) The fact is, the OU meta is going to be extremely unhealthy with Toxapex running the show for the next four months. Sure it'll settle down once the new DLC drops and we get all of those other mons, but delaying a suspect test on it is going to eventually make the suspect test just useless as it won't be an issue anymore post-Crown Tundra.

So, if the council is serious about testing Toxapex, please do it soon, and don't delay much. The health of the OU metagame depends on it.

 

[sugarhigh]

Since there finally is going to be discussion about Toxapex I might as well put my reasonings for its uncompetiveness since I’m known as a pex hater in many circles (I know a full discussion will happen after cinderace retest I just would like to provide my reasonings here, as I have very little to do with no power):
First I would like to say the biggest problem with pex is the PASSIVE approach people must do in order to approach it. How exactly do most teams switch into pex without being punished because pex is suddenly on the field? Well they either go to their clefable or their own pex as fodder for the cripple. This then begins the 10s of turns of both players aimlessly clicking their moves or fishing for scald burn between both pexes until one person switches hoping they won’t be punished. This scenario can be found in endless examples in both wcop and ladder. When the counterplay for most teams is your own pex you know the Pokémon fundamentally may have be a problem to the metagame. You may argue offense styles may still be good but all teams without a clefable or Toxapex for the most part risk being crippled every time they switch a Pokémon to “check” pex.

This brings me to the second aspect of Toxapex’s uncompetitive nature, which is its ability to take advantage of its passive counterplay with It’s BLOCK set. I’m sure everyone knows what this set does as there is countless replays in wcop showing the effectiveness of this set (namely by team Germany). But essentially it’s a set where the pex traps a Pokémon with block and pp stalls it with spite. You may wonder why this uncompetitive but it stems from the fact if you do not know the set you will always go to ur own clefable or pex first to not risk crippling any of your other Pokémon resulting with now your own dead clefable or pex because of the matchup fish that is block pex.

The next aspect of Toxapex which I feel results in its uncompetitiveness is its ability to pp stall as it’s win con due to its ability regenerator and high pp moves. Due to passive counterplay being the only option to Toxapex there are often scenarios of endless switching of Toxapex and other Pokémon to pp stall the opponent which causes the opponent in turn to endlessly switch to ensure pp is not wasted results in what I feel some games end up as this in ss ou mainly due to pex (this can be attributed to other factors but I feel the main culprit being Toxapex)

Finally the last broken pex aspect is the its centralizing defensive utility as well as nullifying much of the tier with its ability and moves. Every team in my opinion for balance is automatically improved with toxapex there is very little reason to ever NOT use it. It will always be able to check whatever Pokémon the team would need it to check and can be used accordingly. Though not uncompetitive results in a lack of growth in the metagame and stagnation as a result.

To summarize my main aspects of why I think toxapex is broken is the first two. It’s passive counterplay to not risk crippling one of your Pokémon that MAY beat it offensively as well as it’s ability to take advantage of its passivity as one can never risk a different Pokémon thus getting trapped for free as shown in many tournament replays. Overall this results in many matches being the dreaded pex vs clefable for 30 turns or pex vs pex for 30 turns.

Tldr: pex can only be checked passive and can easily take advantage of this. Has little counterplay outside of passive approach and therefore to me uncompetitive.

Thank you apologize I can’t link replays I mention (hard to without a computer since no power)

 

[Jaajgko]

The biggest problem with Toxapex to me, is that it pretty much forces the opponent to play defensively against it. The combination of Knock Off, Scald and Toxic makes it really difficult to switch into, as the those three moves together virtually punishes any existing pokemon switching-in on it. Pex will more often than not have Haze, but until you figure out its set you have to think carefully about what's gonna switch into it. But there are a lot of pokemon that can punish switch-ins heavily the same way, so why is Pex in particular so obnoxious ? The reason is Regenerator. When you bring in your Mandibuzz on a Dragapult's Draco Meteor for example, you almost always have to Roost to not be in range from Dragapult's DM next time it comes in. But with Pex that's not the case, because even if it stays at let's say 55%, Regenerator will heal it back to 88% which means that the pex user can confortably try to predict the switch-in if he wants to. It's really hard to predict what the Pex user will do. Another situation where Regenerator makes it over the top is when someone brings in his Excadrill or Zeraora for example to threaten it with a 2HKO, which would usually work against other pokemon, but not with Toxapex because it can stay in, fish for a burn, remove an item or poison the opponent before switching out, without the Pex user being heavily punished because his Pex will stay decently healthy, and can get back to full if it comes in again on a U-Turn or a double. That makes forcing out Pex a very difficult task, with only a selection of mons being able to do so reliably (mainly LO Alakazam, Magnezone, Specs Kyurem, LO Thunder Clef, with most of them struggling against Calm Pex), and most of those don't like to come in on Knock, Toxic or Scald anyway.
My point here is that Toxapex has to be dealt with in a very different way than other defensive pokemon, and that offensive counterplay to it is very limited and most of the time the solution is to stall it out, rack up chip damage, or to pivot into your threat with the help of Teleport, which makes the use of offense in this tier complicated. I think there is room for adaptation for very offensive teams, that will probably start to spam LO Alakazam which really benefits from the latest tiering changes, and Bulky Offense will be able to run Future Sight more often than before the bans I think, and the other 3 pokemon I mentioned are also gonna get better I think. All in all I think before trying to ban it, we should try to see how we can deal with Pex in the builder with more options available to us now, especially in OLT.

 

[Cuddly]

Toxapex is a necessary evil.
It's a Pokemon that currently keeps a lot of Pokemon in check by itself and in regenerator cores.
A complaint I keep seeing about Toxapex is how easy it is for Pex to cripple common switch-ins, and that status absorbers aren't that common. Burning Pokemon with Scald, Knocking off items, and putting poison times in Tspikes and Toxic on Pokemon.
It's annoying, but I don't see how that allow makes it ban worthy.
As for the lack of status absorbers, I think that has more to do with Urshifu-S than Toxapex, as Urshifu-S outclasses a lot of Pokemon that don't care as much about Toxapex or murders them.
Take Reuniclus and Obstagoon as examples.
Reuniclus absolutely is murdered in cold blood by boldest bear thanks to Wicked Blow, but Reuniclus would be one of the best Pex answers with it's Magic Guard and strong Psychics.
Obstagoon would also be another good answer, but using Obstagoon over Urshifu-S essentially cripples your team since you're not using the best Dark type in the tier.
The most viable status absorber is Clefable, which needs to be in top shape to deal with Urshifu-S, and that isn't helped by Knock Off.
There are more examples of these wouldbe Pex switch-ins in the game that have trouble in the current meta because of Urshifu-S's influence.
It feels like yet another case of "Pokemon being broken is only broken because something else enables it and is broken too" like how NatDex was when GrenAsh/Megagross/Darm/Urshifu/Torn were all legal at once and Ash-Greninja/Torn-T were the ones enabling the rest.

 

[tmacbalanced]

I'm not really sure if Toxapex should go or not. If it does get banned, it would definitely make sense. But the thing is, Toxapex provides a lot of useful utility in the OU metagame with all the powerful hitters running around. At the same time, it does restrict the metagame a bit.

The two main issues people run into with Toxapex are: the failure to OHKO without a choice item or a boost & having a tough time getting chip damage on it.
Now what I mean by the first part, is that if Toxapex goes max defense, no relevant physical attacker is 100% OHKO'ing it without a band or a boost. Same thing goes if Toxapex goes max special defense.
252+ Atk Life Orb Rhyperior Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 265-312 (87.1 - 102.6%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Hatterene Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Toxapex: 268-320 (88.1 - 105.2%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Hatterene Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 244-291 (80.2 - 95.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Clefable, Mandibuzz, Mew, Hippowdon, Amoonguss, Tangrowth, Blissey, Slowbro, Skarmory, Quagsire, Corviknight and Gastrodon can not pull off that same feat.
Toxapex is just too safe to use thanks to Baneful Bunker + Recover + Regenerator + Colossal Bulk. Which makes it difficult to make clean offensive plays. And broken threats shouldn't be checked by broken threats anyway. So, maybe Toxapex should be suspected or insta-banned.
Being able to shrug off super effective hits to scout or get off a status/knock off is pretty unhealthy too. Honestly though, I think Regenerator pushes it over the edge. Not being able to reliably get off chip on a mon that's so bulky on both ends is very tough to deal with in games. And a big thing also to point in conjunction with these points is this: being able to sponge off hits and recover with regen or block the hit altogether with baneful bunker enables pp stalling against necessary wallbreakers that use moves that already have low pp. Like with Urshifu-Dark.

 

[BigFatMantis]

Toxapex is a necessary evil.
It's a Pokemon that currently keeps a lot of Pokemon in check by itself and in regenerator cores.

This is actually not true at all. Besides the age old saying of you shouldn't check broken with broken, there is not a single pokemon in OU tier that Toxapex checks that can't be checked by something else. Let's go over a few:

Urshifu? Toxapex checks it when using anything but Wicked Blow (and even still can try for a burn chance for free), but Togekiss and Clefable check it better.
Rillaboom? Plenty of things, especially Corviknight and Amoonguss, check this just fine.
Azumarill? If no Band Superpower, then Ferrothorn checks it fine. Venusaur also checks it. And if you go for Unaware Clefable this checks it too.
non-TBolt Dragapult? Clefable checks this with ease. Or even Blissey if it's a special Pult
Kingdra? Plenty of checks (Azumarill, Blissey, etc.)
Volcarona? Blissey/Chansey an easy check
Scizor? Rotom-Heat, Hippowdon, Corviknight, easy checks.
Kommo-o? Depends on the set, but if no Poison move then Clefable/Togekiss handle it easily. If it has a Poison move and no Flamethrower, then Corviknight can still mostly check it.
Hydreigon? Blissey checks near every set.

So basically, there is not a single OU pokemon that requires Toxapex to be in the meta to check it effectively. And the fact that all of those things I listed can ALL be checked by Toxapex is ridiculous. And that's not even half the list.

I didn't bother listing things that check Toxapex because that's already been discussed plenty in previous posts. But just to recap: Zam and Magnezone are the most reliable answers for OU mons. Things like Zeraora barely do 50% damage unboosted and get left open to scald burn chance, which can be a free chance since a regenerator switch out regains most HP lost.

So while it may be debatable on whether it's banworthy (I certainly think it is), it is most definitely not necessary at all for the meta. It can be removed and the meta will survive just fine, in much healthier fashion.

 

[Dubbidubz]

I think it's fair to say that that pex is broken defensively as mag and libero cinderace (and to a lesser extent urshifu) were broken offensively. Incredible stats for what it does, great move pool, strong typing, and great synergistic ability. An eventual suspect test is justified though it remains to be seen whether it will pass it given the survey results. My hunch is that banning two hyper-offensive pokemon will strengthen pex, lending support for a ban.

 

[Tomoki]

Toxapex feels very unhealthy in the current meta. It just does too much and it's too hard to play around. It has great typing, superb defensive stats and access to two forms of recovery while also being able to apply two different kinds of status and remove items.

It checks way too many Pokémon and nothing likes switching into it except Pokémon with magic guard and even then Clefable can't set up on it because it can just press haze and laugh. Alakazam can't reliably switch in as it doesn't like eating knock off. Reuniculus can switch in and threaten pex out but it struggles to really do much in the tier besides that.

In the mean time, while Pex is still OU, I highly recommend trying out perish trap Azumarill or sand tomb Scizor. Azumarill, especially, does an absolutely superb job of baiting in pex and then removing it from the game. If Pex isn't running toxic, Azu can even deal with other defensive mons like ferrothorn and tangrowth after removing Pex. It also loves disposing of rillaboom.

 

[Cuddly]

This is actually not true at all. Besides the age old saying of you shouldn't check broken with broken, there is not a single pokemon in OU tier that Toxapex checks that can't be checked by something else.

I was thinking along the lines of having a similar status in OU as Landorus-T did in generations prior.
You could check Mega Mawile with Pokemon other than Landorus-T.
You could check Mega Charizard X with Pokemon other than Landorus-T.
You could check Mega Lopunny with Pokemon other than Landorus-T.
You can check a lot of Pokemon without Landorus-T.
But with Landorus-T, you got to check a lot of top tier threats in 1 team slot, instead of multiple teamslots for the wide metagame. Could you imagine XY and SM without Landorus-T?
Toxapex plays a similar role in this metagame. You can check all these Pokemon in a singular team slot or a core with Toxapex.
And do you really want to limit the number of checks for all those Pokemon you mentioned? This may loop back around to "fighting unhealthy with unhealthy", but people were fine with much deadlier Pokemon (Urshifu, Volcarona, Azumarill, ect.) that can score pretty easy kills, rather than just being an annoying roadblock from those deadlier Pokemon to face off against.

 

[Pokedom10]

Oh great, a Toxapex discussion. This only ever ends with civil arguments and fluffy clouds.

Meanwhile, Ferrothorn sets up yet another layer of hazards, invalidates a good half of the current roster, and pairs really really nicely with Pex. And has been doing this, consistently, for 3 generations straight now.

I firmly believe that if Pex goes, Ferrothorn needs to go as well.

 

[Talpr0ne]

I was thinking along the lines of having a similar status in OU as Landorus-T did in generations prior.
You could check Mega Mawile with Pokemon other than Landorus-T.
You could check Mega Charizard X with Pokemon other than Landorus-T.
You could check Mega Lopunny with Pokemon other than Landorus-T.
You can check a lot of Pokemon without Landorus-T.
But with Landorus-T, you got to check a lot of top tier threats in 1 team slot, instead of multiple teamslots for the wide metagame. Could you imagine XY and SM without Landorus-T?
Toxapex plays a similar role in this metagame. You can check all these Pokemon in a singular team slot or a core with Toxapex.
And do you really want to limit the number of checks for all those Pokemon you mentioned? This may loop back around to "fighting unhealthy with unhealthy", but people were fine with much deadlier Pokemon (Urshifu, Volcarona, Azumarill, ect.) that can score pretty easy kills, rather than just being an annoying roadblock from those deadlier Pokemon to face off against.

The comparison with Landorus is extremely flawed because it is a Pokémon that barely had any unhealthy qualities and acted as a safety net in a different way. No doubt it is one of the best bulky pivots in the series, but the key difference with Toxapex is that it could be easily overwhelmed by stacking offensive pressure, since it has no recovery and is vulnerable to status, and also has poor special bulk and is in general reliant on the Intimidate drop to wall things. Of course, none of these things are remotely true for Toxapex. If Landorus can be compared to a brick wall that slows down the march of your army, then Toxapex is an impenetrable fortress with the soldiers on the walls pouring boiling oil on the invading army.

 

[Finchinator]

Oh great, a Toxapex discussion. This only ever ends with civil arguments and fluffy clouds.

Meanwhile, Ferrothorn sets up yet another layer of hazards, invalidates a good half of the current roster, and pairs really really nicely with Pex. And has been doing this, consistently, for 3 generations straight now.

I firmly believe that if Pex goes, Ferrothorn needs to go as well.

Ferrothorn is obviously a great Pokemon, but none of the evidence you presented indicates that it’s anymore than that.

With Leech Seed + Body Press, it can retain hazards against the common Defog users, but it still is susceptible to burns, Knock, and a wide array of offensive options that the tier has to offer. I firmly believe Ferrothorn is not a problem and will not be one anytime soon.

 

[CheesyBrie]

As a lurker (since the meta first developed for Sword and Shield), I have watched and would like to voice my long-standing concerns with how the OU Council has consistently dragged their feet with respect to the metagame.
I do agree that pex is worthy of a suspect, and that back pre-dlc clefable probably was, too.
However, I am fundamentally disappointed that the OU council has copied the exact same tactic they employed before, where they ban/quickban two mons at the same time, and then immediately retest one. This happened with Melmetal alongside Kyurem-B (Both of which are rightfully banned from OU, but I digress).
The retest of Cinderace after a quickban is a blatant waste of time. If the OU council was planning to retest it so soon, then there was absolutely no reason to quickban it. In doing so, I suspect that this further delays the deserved testing of Toxapex. If I recall correctly (and I'm sure Finch or someone else will be swift to correct me if I'm off my mark) the reason that no action was taken regarding Clefable's dominance was that they council "hoped the Post-DLC meta would shake things up." And yes, it did. No one will deny that fact. However, that does not help the metagame as a whole in this current moment. Neither does Re-testing Cinderace.
The Cinderace re-test should not occur until AFTER Pex has been evaluated and deemed "too much" or "just right". Otherwise, the evaluation on Cinderace is mitigated by such a premier wall that (if Cinderace were allowed back into OU and Pex banned) may later prove unhealthy.
Yes, I get that someone will call this "theorymonning" or something of the like, but I will continue to highlight further instances of error.

Seismitoad was only used in OU to conter Dracovish. The council took approximately four months to take any sort of action regarding Dracovish, an inherently uncompetitve pokemon that was wholly banned from OU. Similarly, Arena trap was a far, far too drawn-out discussion, that kept being delayed by things like the "release of pokemon home". I think this shows a consistent pattern that is unhealthy for the well-being of OU.

The council must take swift, corrective action and stand by it. Cinderace should not be re-tested until the metagame reaches a healthier point.
This is my first post, so I suspect someone else will inform me if I'm out of line in saying this, but I feel that this is something that must be acknowledged in writing amongst the prominent forum-goers here. We asked for change, and have spent pages discussing what should be done, and delaying that is unfair to shaping the new future.

I am a bit of a ban-hammer happy player, where I would love to see testing on a more regular basis, such that every month we see something new discussed (HDB, U-turn's unmitigatable pivoting power, Knock off being a base 130 power Dark type move that invalidates items with little counterplay, teleport's negative priority "free" switches, etc.) I just worry that the cries for a suspect test on pex will go on and on and on for pages as they did for Galarian Darmanitan, as they did for Dracovish, as they did for Dugtrio/Arena Trap. I don't want that for this forum, or anyone who plays OU.

Thank you to everyone who took the time to read this. I feel in my gut that this might be something that's a tad out of theme for this thread, but, as this is my first post, I believe this belongs here, at least to explicitly voice what I believe a lot of players are feeling: inaction fatigue.
I appreciate all the hard, diligent work that mods, admins, and the OU council have done thus far, and hope eveyrone has a wonderful day today (treat yourself to your favorite beverage as you play a game or two on the ladder, you deserve it!)

 

[Katy]

hello,

on the topic of : i think toxapex is really punishing to a lot of common builds as there are not enough status-absorbers because it can burn what it can't toxic and it can toxic what it can't burn, knock off is a helpful tool for utility alongside scald and toxic / toxic-spikes and knock off removes the all so prominent and common heavy-duty-boots, which results into that toxapex has an easier time to handle teams when it runs simultaniously toxic-spikes in its set.

toxapex is incredible bulky and the bulk even gets even further with having regenerator (one of the best abilities in competetive pokémon) and recover at the same time and it isn't easy to wear toxapex down as it is highly defensive because of these aspects.

i really think toxapex is unhealthy to a certain extent to the current metagame as it has too many low risk/high reward factors which punishes many of the common teams.

common pokémon which more or less can handle toxapex:

1. zeraora - gets chipped down by using knock off therefore it looses its heavy-duty-boots and it can't come in as much as it wants during the rest of the battle.
2. ferrothorn - might look promising but it can get statused with a scald-burn and most of the time toxapex has no reason to switch out whenever it faces a ferrothorn, it gets crippled.
3. rotom-heat - can get statused by toxic, therefore it can't just set-up infront of toxapexs face.
4. rotom-wash - can get statused by either toxic or scald-burns, can't set-up either without getting punished.
5. amoonguss - gets crippled by scald-burns, therefore its longevity is highly hindered.
6. excadrill - we saw it in the wcop all too often, gets crippled by burns therefore it also can't set-up infront of toxapex.
7. hippodown - gets punished with status as well.

the only pokémon which are not threatened by status are clefable and alakazam due to their amazing ability in magic guard, which leaves them untouched by any status-condition except thunder wave paras.

all these pokémon above might seem appealing for breaking toxapex offensively or helping defensively but they all get highly threatened by either of its status-inflicting move or even by both of them.

if you ask me i am anything but against a possible toxapex suspect-test as this pokémon is punishing to a lot of common mons and unlike last gen, we don't have the necessary power to "overwhelm" toxapex in the long run.

 

[ausma]

so we back

1. What mons do you believe will see increased usage?

You. You will.

I gave this thing a lot of flack in the past, and a huge reason I felt so passionately about it was because of how difficult of a time it had actually doing work, even with easy set-up, with things like Cinderace plaguing it and giving it an incredibly hard time executing sweeps to begin with. Magearna was checked by it once it set up, but Volcarona still hated battling Trick and getting suddenly smacked by a Specs Fleur Cannon or a Scarfed Volt Switch into a corresponding defensive check like Toxapex or the now-banned Cinderace. It's without question that Volcarona had and does have a lot of offensive potential, but now I believe its only real checks come in the form of Thunder Wave Dragapult, Marowak, of course, the Pex. I don't believe Volcarona is even remotely banworthy, and I even still stand by the sentiment that it's still a bit overrated since two of its three best answers are some of the best Pokemon in the tier. Though, Volcarona was a definite winner from these bans, and will be even more potent as an offensive Fire-type in the tier.



Magearna was one of Kyurem's best natural checks next to Blissey, and whether we want to admit it or not, even with Blissey, that shit hurt. Specs Freeze-Dry with STAB Draco and Earth Power is still an incredible offensive combination, even with Blissey running around.

Though, that's not the biggest reason Kyurem is a winner. Magearna being gone means that SubToxic variants are finally viable, which dumpsters on Blissey and is an amazing status spreader in general, especially with Freeze-Dry making it so the only real switch-ins are Steel-types. SubToxic Kyurem has a ton of potential in the tier, more than I feel people are giving it credit for. Being able to spread such a huge status onto susceptible targets, while blasting away Toxapex and Amoonguss with Freeze-Dry practically every game makes Kyurem a great stallbreaker that utterly dunks on passive cores, while serving a great utility against balance teams as well that like to make use of Blissey and Slowbro for pivoting. I imagine Kyurem's viability skyrocketed again from the loss of Cinderace and Magearna.



Rillaboom is really, really happy to see these Pokemon gone. Magearna and Cinderace both resisted Grassy Glide, and the former was a fantastic check to variants without High Horsepower. This leaves Rillaboom's best checks to Corviknight, Skarmory, and Mandibuzz, all of which are great Pokemon, but despise Magnezone now being in the tier. The grass is greener on the other side for monke.

2. Which mons (if any) do you think will be overhyped and have their usage skyrocket initially before dying down after a few days/weeks?

Weavile is a super cool mon, but I've seen some people in other places talk about it with Magearna, its best answer, being gone, as well as Cinderace that was just generally annoying. Weavile is for sure a winner from this turn of events, but Weavile's fundamental issues are still glaring and apparent. It is pitifully walled by Toxapex, it overrelies on Knock Off's damage boost to get pivotal ranges, its Ice options aren't reliably accurate, it is super frail, and it is thrashed by anything faster than it. I think that, while it did win from the bans, that people will find themselves disappointed when they see it still fail to perform like what is expected of it.



Toxtricity might've appreciated Magearna and Cinderace's removal from the tier, but people are forgetting that it struggled before Libero Cinderace and Magearna entered the scene, as its best answers are still crawling around the tier and are buzzing about, walling its Boombursts, outspeeding it, and capitalizing on its prediction reliant nature. I could see Silk Scarf being an interesting pick, as it removes the Choice Lock while giving a nice boost to its explosive Boombursts, but, similar to Weavile, it is still plagued by a lot of inherently detrimental factors that held it back before.

3. Is there anything that may see less usage now that Magearna and Cinderace are banned?

Rotom-Heat really liked being a blanket check to most Cinderace variants and Magearna, and while it is certainly still an amazing Pokemon in the tier, it lost some appeal as a defensive check. Though, Rotom-Heat is the only real thing that comes to mind, as most Pokemon absolutely hated the two that were banned from the tier, and benefited in some way or another from the bans.

4 + 5. How do you think the metagame will develop now that Magearna/Cinderace are banned?

Magearna and Cinderace were offensive powerhouses. While Magearna was much more explosive than Cinderace, Cinderace was an offensive swiss-army knife, able to take on most defensive matchups in the tier with its range of coverage moves and incredible speed tier. As such, offense and balance teams alike lost some amazing pieces to their playstyle, which will now force both archetypes to more articulately fit their teams to topple the new defensive cores that have gained a lot more viability with the loss of these two Pokemon. I believe Balance and Semi-stall, with a sprinkle of hard Stall, will take much more precedent in the tier, as the best defensive cores in the tier have only gotten better without Trick and Cinderace to get into their grill. Momentum is still top dog, too, with Slowbro/Blissey being an insane pivoting core for Balance and Semi-stall, as mentioned before. Though, a huge reason I don't believe hard Stall will be that viable still is because of one pokemon: Urshifu.

Urshifu wasn't really a fan of Cinderace of Magearna itself, and I feel we have somewhat forgotten just how powerful this thing is, and how simply mindbogglingly good it is at blowing away defensive cores without assistance. I can see it becoming an overcentralizing staple to Balanced Offense, with pokemon like Volcarona appreciating its breaking ability, and with the strength of the new and improved pivoting cores, as its wallbreaking ability by its own right is obscene.

Though, at the same time, Toxapex is the best it's ever been. I'll get to that.

6. What playstyle/type of teams (offensive, balance, stall, etc) benefitted the most from the bans.

I personally think Balanced Offense, general Balance, and Semi-stall got a huge upgrade from the loss of Magearna and Cinderace in the tier. I mentioned a lot of it already in my previous answer, but Urshifu is just such a good playing piece to offense and balance cores that it's going to be surprising if the former two don't succeed. I think Semi-stall is a weird case to fully evaluate since they're Urshifu victims themselves, but I think Semi-stall cores with Urshifu and a corresponding offensive Pokemon are particular winners, since defensive cores got notably better without the bans getting in their grill.

7. What playstyle/type of teams lost the most from the bans?

Hyper Offense and Volt-Turn Offense teams are crying very many tears. They still have Urshifu by their side, but losing Cinderace and Magearna is huge, especially for the latter. Hyper Offense still has many offensive playing pieces to work with, but Magearna was so good for it that losing Magearna in of itself greatly dents its viability. They also liked Bulk Up Cinderace, which was also insane, albeit to a lesser extent. Volt-Turn loved both Pokemon, since they were both incredible offensive Pokemon and formed an amazing Volt-Turn core in of themselves. While Rillaboom and Urshifu are still alive and kicking, I imagine it'll be much harder for these archetypes to succeed the way that they have prior to the bans.

8. Is there anything that may become too problematic for OU now that Magearna and Cinderace are banned? Don't go overboard with this one.

Toxapex is a very strange case, because it as a defensive playing piece is obscene, but at the same time it's such a weird Pokemon to evaluate due to its startlingly different nature as a banworthy Pokemon. I won't echo the sentiments of others in this thread, but it is incredibly difficult to wear down its physically defensive set, especially with such an obscene defensive typing, Regenerator, and incredibly free Toxics, Toxic Spikes, Scalds, and Knock Offs to dish out. These factors make it very hard to play around and actually skillfully outplay/punish effectively, and makes for a powerful utility Pokemon that is not only hard to break, but has a hard time being broken in general, letting its defensive utility play a longer staying role, and overall clearing the path for teams in a much stronger fashion than what I could see as healthy. In fact, it is such an amazing glue to balance that it in of itself has become an evil almost necessitated in most Balance archetypes.

Honestly, though, I'm not as passionate about removing it as others are, but it certainly has quite a strangehold on the tier, and the loss of Magearna/Cinderace really amps up its game defensively, making it the best it's ever been in OU, in my opinion.

While most people have shown a worry for Toxapex--me included--I find myself worried about Urshifu as well. While Urshifu is by no means a broken Pokemon in of itself, its offensive prowess is an incredible boon for the tier that provides invaluable wallbreaking for sweepers like Volcarona that allow for offensive teams to thrive so powerfully in a domineering fashion that allows for it to mold itself into Balanced Offense, Semi-stall, and general Balance perfectly. We definitely need more time with it, especially after the loss of Cinderace and Magearna, but I can see Urshifu getting out of control now that its outright game-changing, archetype crushing wallbreaking ability is being highlighted.

10. Have a nice day and I hope you all enjoy the new metagame!

Thank you and the rest of the council for doing a great job as usual!

I think, honestly, your guys's work is taken greatly for granted. I'm seeing a lot of posts criticizing your decisions, but I find myself agreeing with mostly every approach taken. Most of all though, I really appreciate you guys being so much more transparent than you've been in past generations, and letting us as the majority have a more direct role to play in tiering. Thank you again! :D

 

[JTD783]

Does anyone have thoughts regarding special breakers in the tier, now that Magearna is gone? It either checked many of them or simply outperformed them.

I’m particularly interested in Nasty Plot gang, aka Gengar, Alakazam, and Hydreigon. Gengar strikes me as the most viable of the three because Shadow Ball / Sludge Wave / Thunderbolt is such fantastic coverage right now. MandiPex* crumbles to it, and it’s faster than almost the entire unboosted tier. Alakazam has the only good matchup against Chansey and Blissey of the three, being able to crush them with LO Psyshock. It has more trouble against Mandibuzz but it’s also really damn fast; it revenge kills most mons with little trouble. Hydreigon really appreciates the absence of Cinderace and Magearna. Hydra can go back to running LO with Draco, Dark Pulse, and possibly Flash Cannon, as Flamethrower / Earth Power are no longer mandatory. Roost is worth looking into imo, since it enables Hydra to check MandiPex and Rotom-H in the long term.

As Ausma mentioned, Volcarona, Kyurem, and even Toxtricity are in a much better spot now too. I’m looking forward to using each of them this OLT cycle. Not that I’ll actually qualify, because I’m bad lmao.

*Fuck Pex all my homies hate Pex

 

[Mushfiq]

I dont know why but all the f***ing smogon council ban offensive things but not defensive mons. Always has the fucking excuse in "they contrain teambuilder", "they dont have counter", "they are fun to play", "pressure stall cores" but shit like Toxapex and Clef doesnt get a suspect test ever.
Pre DLC meta was Teleport Clef everywhere fucking >50% usage rate, but council was "we can't ban clef, he is finch favorite mon", "he help the meta to be more stall oriented", "we have to wait a fucking meta to be playable again bc we dont ban the pinky thing" or something like "PUPL>ladder" in the case of arena trap ban.
I like to play with rules but the council doesnt give a shit about making the meta fun to play, the want match of 100 turn at minimun to be "competitive"
The only reason i always play in lower tier instead of OU is bc the 50% of the team are always the same shit: stall, sand balance, some form of hyperoffence and this was the same from the start of SSOU
Edit: this is going to be banned soon bc mod dont like to talk about how crappy the council banning system is.. =(

I'm just going iterate the sentiment of the post, as I fully agree with this. Hopefully, I'll be able to do it on a much more constructive manner.

There IS a very strong bias of banning offensive mons in contrast to banning support/defensive mons. The problem lies in what both the council & the tournament player base perceives to be broken or ban worthy. And this perception is "whatever is too difficult to counter play".

And that is why defensive mons repeatedly bypass the radar. Defensive mons are not restrictive and problematic because of what THEY can do, it's what they STOP the opponent from doing, and what it ENABLES its other teammates to do. For example, Toxapex uses its massive bulk and Regen to be able to continuously switch in and act as a pivot. It does not matter if you out-predict your opponent and hit it with an SE move on the switch. It just switches out, regens back 33% health and shrugs off the damage, essentially invalidating skillful play. Thus, it has an unhealthy level of competence of stopping offensive play from the opposing team (Bulk, Regen, Recover, Haze, Knock Off). Clef functioned similarly and was ridiculously broken pre DLC (Though I understand the Council's POV and a significant meta shift arriving soon is a plausible reason to hold off a suspect).

In a battle scenario, this ability to pivot almost indefinitely is taken advantage of by the offensive teammates of Toxapex, be it Cinderace, Zeraora or Urshfiu. It is because of absurdly good pivots like Toxapex, these Pokemon get far, far more chances to come in and do damage and when you lose to them, you have this false perception of these offensive mons being "difficult to wear down", when in reality, it is because of Pex itself that these Pokemon got so many opportunities in the first place. (I used these mons as examples of how defensive mons function, don't @ me with the specifics of the mons I mentioned)

Same with walls. When evaluating the suspect worthiness of walls, you have to look at how it pairs up with other walls. Because that's how defensive pokemon function. There is again this false perception of that if a wall is broken, it has to be something like Lugia that is impossible to kill. When in fact, a very simple Regen core+Unaware mon stopped 99.9% of offensive counter-play, stopping both choice users and stat boosters across the past 2/3 generations.

I believe the reliance of tiering policy on the whims of tour players are the prime cause of this, a player-base that makes up only a tiny fraction of the entire PS skilled player-base (Yes, skilled player-base. Not even the total). If you look at replays of tours, you'll see an absurd number of games that are extremely lengthy and decided on support mons pp stalling each other. Furthermore, tour players have the luxury of preparing for only one game at a time, so they can resort to extremely situational breakers (Like NP, heal bell, Roost, Air Slash Togekiss) or a sneaky Trick/Move (Z-moves in the past gen) to get over any restrictive gameplay from defensive support/mons. This significantly clouds their perception on just how problematic certain defensive mons can be.

Inaction against defensive mons has been historically prevalent, starting from allowing Clef to run rampant in XY despite games being decided on who played their Clef better to taking ages to ban Mega Sableye. Pex was extremely problematic for the most part of SM as well, and it was only somewhat balanced out because of MagmaTrap Tran becoming popular.

And no, the "council" is not doing anything or even taking these concerns seriously. Only Finch is and that's just one guy.

 

[Perish Song]

As a lurker (since the meta first developed for Sword and Shield), I have watched and would like to voice my long-standing concerns with how the OU Council has consistently dragged their feet with respect to the metagame.
I do agree that pex is worthy of a suspect, and that back pre-dlc clefable probably was, too.

Being forced to do proper tiering while DLC's are a thing is no easy task. This is the first time ever that Smogon has to deal with something like this, and I find it unfair to blame the council for something that wasn't their fault in the first place. They have been trying their best on how to approach things properly, and Clefable makes a good example of why waiting was a good choice here seeing it's not as popular/restrictive as it used to be. If they suspect tested Clefable before DLC, then they had to resuspect it post DLC and that would slow down tiering.

The retest of Cinderace after a quickban is a blatant waste of time. If the OU council was planning to retest it so soon, then there was absolutely no reason to quickban it. In doing so, I suspect that this further delays the deserved testing of Toxapex. If I recall correctly (and I'm sure Finch or someone else will be swift to correct me if I'm off my mark) the reason that no action was taken regarding Clefable's dominance was that they council "hoped the Post-DLC meta would shake things up." And yes, it did. No one will deny that fact. However, that does not help the metagame as a whole in this current moment. Neither does Re-testing Cinderace.

If you look at our current tournament schedule, with OLT and Snake being right around the corner I think its safe to say that Cinderace's retest will not happen in a very long time (perhaps not until DLC2, that seems reasonable as Cinderace will remain broken for the remainder of DLC1 meta.) to not shake the meta heavily. I would value a smooth tournament experience over complete chaos. ( Which is why I think Grand Slam sucked so much this year, lol.)

Note: This is just what I speculate, not the words of any council.

Seismitoad was only used in OU to conter Dracovish. The council took approximately four months to take any sort of action regarding Dracovish, an inherently uncompetitve pokemon that was wholly banned from OU. Similarly, Arena trap was a far, far too drawn-out discussion, that kept being delayed by things like the "release of pokemon home". I think this shows a consistent pattern that is unhealthy for the well-being of OU.

Blame DLC for this, the fact that none of the banned Pokemons were reintroduced to tier in DLC1 and formerly broken mons in Clefable are now in much better condition hints that waiting was the right call and these suspects were handled properly. You may think that suspecting something on the verge of a massive metagame change is a bad idea indeed because there is a great chance that things will become manageable with the metagame changes. (See Clefable)

 

[BigFatMantis]

If you look at our current tournament schedule, with OLT and Snake being right around the corner I think its safe to say that Cinderace's retest will not happen in a very long time (perhaps not until DLC2, that seems reasonable as Cinderace will remain broken for the remainder of DLC1 meta.) to not shake the meta heavily. I would value a smooth tournament experience over complete chaos. ( Which is why I think Grand Slam sucked so much this year, lol.)

I think this is precisely why Toxapex needs to be suspected ASAP. In fact maybe it should just be quickbanned and then re-introduced with the new DLC - I can't imagine many people really arguing with that. I have a feeling that it won't be though, unfortunately. But we can hope and pray.

 

[DrPumpkinz]

The retest of Cinderace after a quickban is a blatant waste of time. If the OU council was planning to retest it so soon, then there was absolutely no reason to quickban it.

I'm not going to pretend I'm at all qualified to discuss whether or not Toxapex should be banned, but I do want to highlight this, as I think it's a very good point. Quickbanning Cinderace and the retesting it before doing anything else accomplishes nothing besides like a month without Cinderace. Regardless of what other problematic things were on the radar, I think it would be a good idea to suspect at least the worst of those first before returning to Cinderace. Just like how Melmetal wasn't retested until after Arena Trap was dealt with.

 

[RoyalDispenser]

Just want to throw my 2 cents in.

Don’t fucking dare retest Cinderace before toxapex. Either test pex first or don’t bother as pex restricted Cinderace to running zen headbutt or being hard walled by pex. Adding ace back into the tier only for pex to be tested and potentially removed just slippery slopes into having to test/ban ace again with pex gone.

IMO pex needs to be tested immidiately, I really don’t know why we’re sleeping on this thing, but by the time the average player even gets reqs, they pretty much have a full picture in what a tier looks with something removed and can decide for themselves whether or not it was enjoyable or cancer. We really don’t need months to find out how for better or for worse the meta has become.

Toxapex is just way too restricting. Not only are you forced to play defensively vs. it since it out-trades you thanks to regenerator and hazards, but also knock off + scald + bunker wear down your team too much, with nothing to properly wear down pex in return or straight up remove it. Playing vs pex feels like an uphill battle even if you have the best tools to deal with it considering nothing that does scare it wants burned or lose an item.

 

[Gomi]

I was thinking along the lines of having a similar status in OU as Landorus-T did in generations prior.
You could check Mega Mawile with Pokemon other than Landorus-T.
You could check Mega Charizard X with Pokemon other than Landorus-T.
You could check Mega Lopunny with Pokemon other than Landorus-T.
You can check a lot of Pokemon without Landorus-T.
But with Landorus-T, you got to check a lot of top tier threats in 1 team slot, instead of multiple teamslots for the wide metagame. Could you imagine XY and SM without Landorus-T?
Toxapex plays a similar role in this metagame. You can check all these Pokemon in a singular team slot or a core with Toxapex.
And do you really want to limit the number of checks for all those Pokemon you mentioned? This may loop back around to "fighting unhealthy with unhealthy", but people were fine with much deadlier Pokemon (Urshifu, Volcarona, Azumarill, ect.) that can score pretty easy kills, rather than just being an annoying roadblock from those deadlier Pokemon to face off against.

Does Lando-T have Regen? no

Does Lando-T have such insane bulk on both ends that it can invest fully into one end and still tank enormous hits on the other? no

Does Lando-t throttle the pace of the match because if you can't KO it, you have to sit there and wittle it down for numberous turns with knocks and burns, while achieving zero offensive progress? Nop

Does Lando-T make pokemon walled by it unviable largely due to not being able to bypass it? N o

And most importantly, could Lando-T safely scout almost the entire metagame because its titanic bulk and consistent healing means taking 60-70% is fine because you can count on regening on at least one mon on their team? Nope

You're comparing a versatile, easy to wear down gluemon to a nuclear bomb shelter here.

Touching on the Urshifu statement a lil bit, I run Reuniclus Semi Stall, Urshifu doesn't invalidate it or noticably limit what it fits on and if you think it does, it's because you don't know what teams Reuniclus does fit on, which is basically very fat teams exclusively, who prep Comfortably for Ursh. Touching on Obstagoon, I love this mon but A) It's only a counter if you actually get the flame orb off, which can be difficult and can't be done on pex safely due to knock off, and B) It already faces harsh competition from pokemon not named Shifu because it has poor longevity, requires great prediction, H A T E S rocky helmet, and struggles to switch in safely.

The only thing here I can agree with, is stating that Shifu will become way better if pex is gone, because yea, Toxapex is the best Urshifu pivot and largely limits the mon's potential. However, Urshifu is already debatebly an unhealthy pokemon and I'd rather not keep a horrible to account for catch all wall to conserve a pokemon that's still debatable with it around. The rest are just kinda nonsensical though, Azumarill OHKOs pex with knock at +6 and has other forms of great counterplay. Volcarona isn't really hard stopped by Pex unless it's safeguard roost, which is on teams where pex removal is of the upmost priority, and Volc has other defensive counterplay without pex around, Notably Blissey/Chansey, Hippo with some Spdef invest, and Spdef Mandibuzz, as well as more niche options like Jellicent, Gastro, and Rhyperior. Admittedly the last two are movepool dependant but all Volc counterplay is Set dependant, including Pex, frankly. Not only that, but there's still offensive counterplay, including Crawdaunt, Terrakion, Dragapult, Chandelure, Azumarill, and Rain as a whole.

The last thing I wanted to touch on was "you could check all these pokemon with Lando-T instead of with multiple teamslots", because this is quite deceptive. Lando has almost never been anyone's only line of defense against anything. If scarf Lando-T was your only line of defense VS. Lop, Mmaw, and Zard-X, that was very, VERY far from sufficent and you were going to get overwhelmed. Even running Defensive Lando-T as your only line of defense is really questionable, a lot of teams had outs to these things that weren't Lando-T. If I run Toxapex as my only line of defense VS. Specs Keld, Band Azu, and Weavile, I am very likely fine because I'd have to misplay real hard to get a regen tank that is immune to toxic and has 2 forms of recovery with gargantuan bulk overwhelmed.

Basically what I'm saying is, keeping a good chunk of the metagame in check does not make you Lando-T, and it does not make you a net positive.

 

[LORD SAGIS]

Toxapex is a big part of why I like Reuniclus right now. Unless its Toxic Spikes, Pex makes no progress when theres a Reuniclus on the other side of the field. However when I looked at the VR I noticed how many more top threat flat out lose to Reuniclus 1v1. Clefable (aside from Trick Scarf), Blissey, Ferrothorn, Hippowdon, Slowbro, etc hate dealing with it.

However Toxapex also makes a great partner because it can lay down Toxic Spikes so Reuniclus can wear down Dark types more easily. Reuniclus likes Thunder's coverage to hit Mandibuzz and Crawdaunt so a team mate that can deal with Excadrill is important. Corviknight and Hippowdon excel at these rolls.