could just be tpp memeing and nothing is confirmed but 24 days seems likely
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/np-ss-ou-suspect-process-round-10-heroes.3681262/post-8804457
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Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #3539)
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/np-ss-ou-suspect-process-round-10-heroes.3681262/post-8804457
I'm gonna be honest I'm convinced we're never getting that Zamazenta Suspect test anytime soon especially when the council is usually very quick with stuff like quickbanning cinderace and magearna along with previous suspect tests like pheromosa
it is good to stop giving us hopes, we know thats not happening anytime soon, also I think is time to test arena trap too
It's probably best that we avoid talking about hypotheticals regarding suspects that we have no real way of knowing will actually happen. I'm sure the council is willing to answer any questions sent their way; but this isn't the thread to ask them.
Anyway, regarding Blaziken: Blaziken is, in my eyes, probably the one of the most polarized Pokemon in the tier due to its incredibly wild, kamikaze-driven playstyle. A big issue, I've found, is that most people are trying to find a way to unlock its cleaning abilities again, when that feels really difficult to reliably accomplish in the current metagame climate and due to how much recoil it will naturally take in both setting up and dealing damage. While it definitely isn't anywhere near as consistent of a cleaner as it used to be, its raw power, coverage, and STABs give it the ability to force some incredible trades and operate instead as a fast acting, fast falling wallbreaker.
As far as synergy goes, I feel as though it best shines on offenses where it can be paired with other wallbreakers like Garchomp to overload defensive cores and pierce major holes in teams to enable a more consistent win condition to clean up the rubble.
Anyway, regarding Blaziken: Blaziken is, in my eyes, probably the one of the most polarized Pokemon in the tier due to its incredibly wild, kamikaze-driven playstyle. A big issue, I've found, is that most people are trying to find a way to unlock its cleaning abilities again, when that feels really difficult to reliably accomplish in the current metagame climate and due to how much recoil it will naturally take in both setting up and dealing damage. While it definitely isn't anywhere near as consistent of a cleaner as it used to be, its raw power, coverage, and STABs give it the ability to force some incredible trades and operate instead as a fast acting, fast falling wallbreaker.
As far as synergy goes, I feel as though it best shines on offenses where it can be paired with other wallbreakers like Garchomp to overload defensive cores and pierce major holes in teams to enable a more consistent win condition to clean up the rubble.
It's strong but it doesn't have the immediate power to OHKO everything, especially if it's Jolly.
It's fast after a Speed Boost but it isn't blazing fast unless it foregoes a crucial Adamant nature, which means it can be outpaced by a bunch of faster stuff.
It has severe 4MSS. It wants Protect, it wants SD, it wants its STABs, it wants Knock Off, it wants TPunch or Earthquake, and it just cannot run them all. So it'll frequently get bricked by Slowbro, Pex, Pult, etc. depending on what it wants to give up on.
Flare Blitz is crazy strong and OHKOs a ton at +2 alongside a Life Orb but it kills itself very quickly when that chip damage+recoil, Rocky Helmet or Iron Barbs chip, hazards, and potential priority are factored in. CC is a fantastic move but makes Blaze even more prone to just dying to priority and chip thereafter.
Zapdos gives it hell as well and a paralyzed Blaziken is a trash Blaziken.
TL;DR: Blaziken is a lategame sweeper that fits on very specific types of Hyper Offense teams and can only really excel as a lategame sweeper. If you try breaking with it it faces too much competition in that role and it'll die very, very quickly and thus deprive you of what could potentially be a decent lategame sweeper.
It's not necessarily the worst thing in the world but Z-Moves gave it that power needed to break past defensive mons when things like Pex came into existence. Now that it doesn't have Z-Moves or a Mega and the defensive stuff it needed those to break past or the offensive stuff it needed its Mega to outpace still (largely) exist it's a lot worse off that it used to be.
WHY RILLABOOM DESERVES A BAN - By an experienced teambuilder.
Not many people believe Rillaboom is broken, or think that it deserves a ban. I’m sure some people will even skip all of this explanation, just leave a “Haha” reaction, and move on. For those of you who don’t know me, I’m Pinkacross, an RMT builder and ladder player. I’ve made several creative teams that peaked very high on the ladder this generation, featuring pokemon like Flame Charge Blacephalon, Arctozolt, Toxtricity, Umbreon, and Alolan Raichu. I’ve been around since gen 6, and after having done thousands of ladder games this generation, and having constructed over 5,000 teams in my builder, I consider myself extremely qualified to assess the quality of a metagame, and see what the problems are. And let me tell you-- the biggest problem this generation, bigger than Dracovish, Magearna, Urshifu, Spectrier, or even Cinderace-- is Rillaboom.
This isn’t because Rillaboom is singularly better than any of these pokemon. The reason Rillaboom is a bigger problem, however, is the wide reaching effect its presence had on the tier. I will go over two issues I have with Rillaboom that I believe make it ban worthy: first, its crazy breaking potential, and second (and more impactfully) the extraordinarily negative impact it has had on the metagame. I will title these two segments “Rillaboom the Breaker” and “Rillaboom the Meta Killer.” Note that for this explanation, I will primarily be discussing Choice Band Rillaboom, which is generally accepted to be the leading set. Please, when you read, keep an open mind.
Rillaboom the Breaker:
What are the walls to Rillaboom? There are quite a few: Mandibuzz, Zapdos, Moltres, Tornadus, Corviknight, Skarmory, and, in some cases, Toxapex. At first glance, it would seem as though there are sufficient viable walls to keep Rillaboom from being broken. The problem is, Rillaboom severely cripples all of these supposed switch-ins. Mandibuzz, Zapdos, Moltres, and Tornadus hate losing their Heavy Duty Boots, and will often die to one or two Wood Hammers if Stealth Rock is up. On top of this, the Wood Hammer recoil is negligible due to the Grassy Terrain healing Rillaboom receives every turn. Corviknight and Skarmory don’t appreciate losing their items either, but they aren’t as negatively impacted. That being said, without leftovers, and still taking 12% from Stealth Rock, Rillaboom can force these pokemon in repeatedly and U-turn for additional chip. Furthermore, these supposed walls are relatively easy to chip with U-turn, especially considering how many pokemon Rillaboom easily forces out. Rillaboom can also Knock Off the Shed Shell that Corviknight and Skarmory run, making them susceptible to being trapped by Magnezone, a common partner.
Consider walls to other ban worthy pokemon: Dracovish didn’t cripple Toxapex, Urshifu didn’t cripple Clefable, and Cinderace didn’t cripple Landorus-- at least not nearly to the extent that Rillaboom cripples all of its walls. It’s true that running certain combinations of walls will almost guarantee you have no problems with Rillaboom. Many combinations of Ferrothorn, Zapdos, Corviknight, and Toxapex will allow you to deal with Rillaboom easily-- but forcing people to run multiple fat walls to deal with a single pokemon is not a good or healthy system, and it encourages greater amounts of stall and semistall. A healthy meta encourages balance, not fat. Balances greatly struggle to handle Rillaboom’s ability to easily cripple each of its alleged walls. That being said, this alone is not enough for Rillaboom to deserve a ban… but it’s impact on offensive builds pushes it far over the edge.
CALCS TO SUPPORT REASONING ABOVE:
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Wood Hammer vs. 248 HP / 164+ Def Mandibuzz in Grassy Terrain: 153-180 (36.1 - 42.5%) -- 87.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Wood Hammer vs. 248 HP / 220 Def Zapdos in Grassy Terrain: 184-217 (48 - 56.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tornadus-Therian in Grassy Terrain: 243-287 (67.1 - 79.2%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable in Grassy Terrain: 357-421 (90.6 - 106.8%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex in Grassy Terrain: 217-256 (71.3 - 84.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Grassy Terrain recovery
Rillaboom the Meta Killer:
Rillaboom has single handedly over centralized offensive playstyles in a way never seen before in the history of competitive pokemon. How? Grassy Glide. Grassy Glide is a 70 base power Grass type move that becomes priority in Grassy Terrain, which Rillaboom sets upon entering. This makes Grassy Glide a stab 91 base power move (after applying the 1.3x terrain boost). This is the strongest priority move in pokemon by far. The average base power for priority is 40, examples being Mach Punch, Bullet Punch, Aqua Jet, and Quick Attack. The few exceptions to this all have huge detriments to prevent them from being broken. Sucker Punch, a move with 70 base power, only works when the opponent attacks. Extreme Speed, at 80 base power, is given to almost no pokemon, with Dragonite and Regieleki using it best. The only stab Extreme Speed user is Linoone, a completely non viable pokemon. Lastly, we have First Impression, a 90 base power move with the enormous detriment of only being usable on the first turn. In RU, where many pokemon had First Impression, HO teams easily overcame this powerful priority move by running Protect on their sweepers. Grassy Glide… has no such nerf or condition. The only thing resembling some sort of limit is the 5-turn limit of Grassy Terrain, which almost never hinders a well-played Rillaboom. This move has had a horrible effect on diversity within the tier, as well as forcing HO and offense teams to essentially choose between 10 or so pokemon to assemble a team of 6.
Do you recognize these pokemon? If you play on the ladder often, you surely do. These are the most common HO and Offense pokemon used in the tier right now. And they all have one thing in common: They resist Grass. Whether it is 4x or 2x, all of these pokemon resist Grass. This is not a coincidence. Rillaboom has forced offensive playstyles to run pokemon these pokemon, without exception. And yet, despite Offense and HO teams spamming these pokemon, Rillaboom is STILL helpful against Offense and HO, being able to pick off weakened sweepers and 2HKO Dragapult despite the type resistance.
Rillaboom has done more than just completely crush creative HO builds. Below I will list all the commonly considered “OU-relevant” pokemon and playstyles that Rillaboom has harmed, and/or completely destroyed.
This list only includes the previously OU-relevant pokemon that Rillaboom has shut down. Essentially every single lower tier offense pokemon has also been shut out by Rillaboom. Never has a single pokemon so greatly killed the diversity and creativity of a tier. This is truly what puts Rillaboom past the line of banworthiness. When building any kind of offense team, you must strictly conform to very standard guidelines, or just have a mediocre, poorly functioning team that struggles against Rillaboom.
CALCS TO SUPPORT REASONING ABOVE:
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult in Grassy Terrain: 150-177 (47.3 - 55.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Grassy Terrain recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Azumarill in Grassy Terrain: 572-674 (167.2 - 197%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kingdra in Grassy Terrain: 249-294 (85.5 - 101%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Lele: 232-274 (82.5 - 97.5%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Koko in Grassy Terrain: 271-321 (96.4 - 114.2%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Raichu-Alola in Grassy Terrain: 409-483 (156.7 - 185%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Blacephalon in Grassy Terrain: 197-232 (79.7 - 93.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. -1 0 HP / 4 Def Blaziken in Grassy Terrain: 237-279 (78.7 - 92.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar in Grassy Terrain: 180-212 (68.9 - 81.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery and Grassy Terrain recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 0 HP / 28 Def Alakazam in Grassy Terrain: 421-496 (167.7 - 197.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gyarados in Grassy Terrain: 288-340 (87 - 102.7%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Nihilego in Grassy Terrain: 432-508 (120.3 - 141.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Cloyster in Grassy Terrain: 284-336 (117.8 - 139.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Polteageist in Grassy Terrain: 339-399 (129.8 - 152.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Thank you for those who took the time to read my explanation, and I hope you now see why Rillaboom needs to go. We’ll lose one pokemon if we ban, yes, but we will also gain several new playstyles, and once again be able to use a sweeper that doesn’t need to resist Grass. Please show support and petition the council to give Rillaboom a Suspect Test, and take back offensive team building! :)
P.S. I'd be happy to answer questions to further justify my views if anyone needs clarification or is curious.
Not many people believe Rillaboom is broken, or think that it deserves a ban. I’m sure some people will even skip all of this explanation, just leave a “Haha” reaction, and move on. For those of you who don’t know me, I’m Pinkacross, an RMT builder and ladder player. I’ve made several creative teams that peaked very high on the ladder this generation, featuring pokemon like Flame Charge Blacephalon, Arctozolt, Toxtricity, Umbreon, and Alolan Raichu. I’ve been around since gen 6, and after having done thousands of ladder games this generation, and having constructed over 5,000 teams in my builder, I consider myself extremely qualified to assess the quality of a metagame, and see what the problems are. And let me tell you-- the biggest problem this generation, bigger than Dracovish, Magearna, Urshifu, Spectrier, or even Cinderace-- is Rillaboom.
This isn’t because Rillaboom is singularly better than any of these pokemon. The reason Rillaboom is a bigger problem, however, is the wide reaching effect its presence had on the tier. I will go over two issues I have with Rillaboom that I believe make it ban worthy: first, its crazy breaking potential, and second (and more impactfully) the extraordinarily negative impact it has had on the metagame. I will title these two segments “Rillaboom the Breaker” and “Rillaboom the Meta Killer.” Note that for this explanation, I will primarily be discussing Choice Band Rillaboom, which is generally accepted to be the leading set. Please, when you read, keep an open mind.
Rillaboom the Breaker:
What are the walls to Rillaboom? There are quite a few: Mandibuzz, Zapdos, Moltres, Tornadus, Corviknight, Skarmory, and, in some cases, Toxapex. At first glance, it would seem as though there are sufficient viable walls to keep Rillaboom from being broken. The problem is, Rillaboom severely cripples all of these supposed switch-ins. Mandibuzz, Zapdos, Moltres, and Tornadus hate losing their Heavy Duty Boots, and will often die to one or two Wood Hammers if Stealth Rock is up. On top of this, the Wood Hammer recoil is negligible due to the Grassy Terrain healing Rillaboom receives every turn. Corviknight and Skarmory don’t appreciate losing their items either, but they aren’t as negatively impacted. That being said, without leftovers, and still taking 12% from Stealth Rock, Rillaboom can force these pokemon in repeatedly and U-turn for additional chip. Furthermore, these supposed walls are relatively easy to chip with U-turn, especially considering how many pokemon Rillaboom easily forces out. Rillaboom can also Knock Off the Shed Shell that Corviknight and Skarmory run, making them susceptible to being trapped by Magnezone, a common partner.
Consider walls to other ban worthy pokemon: Dracovish didn’t cripple Toxapex, Urshifu didn’t cripple Clefable, and Cinderace didn’t cripple Landorus-- at least not nearly to the extent that Rillaboom cripples all of its walls. It’s true that running certain combinations of walls will almost guarantee you have no problems with Rillaboom. Many combinations of Ferrothorn, Zapdos, Corviknight, and Toxapex will allow you to deal with Rillaboom easily-- but forcing people to run multiple fat walls to deal with a single pokemon is not a good or healthy system, and it encourages greater amounts of stall and semistall. A healthy meta encourages balance, not fat. Balances greatly struggle to handle Rillaboom’s ability to easily cripple each of its alleged walls. That being said, this alone is not enough for Rillaboom to deserve a ban… but it’s impact on offensive builds pushes it far over the edge.
CALCS TO SUPPORT REASONING ABOVE:
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Wood Hammer vs. 248 HP / 164+ Def Mandibuzz in Grassy Terrain: 153-180 (36.1 - 42.5%) -- 87.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Wood Hammer vs. 248 HP / 220 Def Zapdos in Grassy Terrain: 184-217 (48 - 56.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tornadus-Therian in Grassy Terrain: 243-287 (67.1 - 79.2%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable in Grassy Terrain: 357-421 (90.6 - 106.8%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex in Grassy Terrain: 217-256 (71.3 - 84.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Grassy Terrain recovery
Rillaboom the Meta Killer:
Rillaboom has single handedly over centralized offensive playstyles in a way never seen before in the history of competitive pokemon. How? Grassy Glide. Grassy Glide is a 70 base power Grass type move that becomes priority in Grassy Terrain, which Rillaboom sets upon entering. This makes Grassy Glide a stab 91 base power move (after applying the 1.3x terrain boost). This is the strongest priority move in pokemon by far. The average base power for priority is 40, examples being Mach Punch, Bullet Punch, Aqua Jet, and Quick Attack. The few exceptions to this all have huge detriments to prevent them from being broken. Sucker Punch, a move with 70 base power, only works when the opponent attacks. Extreme Speed, at 80 base power, is given to almost no pokemon, with Dragonite and Regieleki using it best. The only stab Extreme Speed user is Linoone, a completely non viable pokemon. Lastly, we have First Impression, a 90 base power move with the enormous detriment of only being usable on the first turn. In RU, where many pokemon had First Impression, HO teams easily overcame this powerful priority move by running Protect on their sweepers. Grassy Glide… has no such nerf or condition. The only thing resembling some sort of limit is the 5-turn limit of Grassy Terrain, which almost never hinders a well-played Rillaboom. This move has had a horrible effect on diversity within the tier, as well as forcing HO and offense teams to essentially choose between 10 or so pokemon to assemble a team of 6.
Do you recognize these pokemon? If you play on the ladder often, you surely do. These are the most common HO and Offense pokemon used in the tier right now. And they all have one thing in common: They resist Grass. Whether it is 4x or 2x, all of these pokemon resist Grass. This is not a coincidence. Rillaboom has forced offensive playstyles to run pokemon these pokemon, without exception. And yet, despite Offense and HO teams spamming these pokemon, Rillaboom is STILL helpful against Offense and HO, being able to pick off weakened sweepers and 2HKO Dragapult despite the type resistance.
Rillaboom has done more than just completely crush creative HO builds. Below I will list all the commonly considered “OU-relevant” pokemon and playstyles that Rillaboom has harmed, and/or completely destroyed.
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Azumarill: Essentially a dead setup sweeper, as Glide OHKOs it.
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Kingdra / Mantine / Drednaw / Omastar / Seismitoad, and other creative Swift Swim users: Due to the presence of Rillaboom, rain is now forced to run Ferrothorn and several birds, typically Zapdos and either Tornadus or Thundurus, making all rain teams less diverse than ever.
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Psychic Terrain teams: Rillaboom evades the psychic terrain game-implemented priority nerf by setting its own terrain. Even worse, Rillaboom’s Grassy Glide is no longer a priority move when a Tapu Lele or Indeedee switches in, giving Rillaboom a high chance to OHKO Tapu Lele with Grassy Glide after Stealth Rock on switchin. Psychic Terrain as a playstyle has been crushed by Rillaboom.
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Electric Terrain teams: Abusers like Alolan Raichu, Regieleki, and other Rising Voltage users are OHKOd by Rillaboom with its massive power priority move, making this almost completely unviable.
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Sticky Web teams: Partly the fault of Heavy Duty Boots, but Rillaboom pushed Webs into the non viable category.
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Blacephalon: Despite the type resistance, Grassy Glide OHKOs after Stealth Rock.
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Blaziken: Yep, no joke, Blaziken gets 2HKOd and takes 80 minimum after a single CC defense drop.
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Gengar: Glide does 70 minimum. Any chip, and your Gengar is toast.
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Alakazam: See description for Psychic Terrain teams.
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Gyarados: Glide does 87 min.
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Keldeo: OHKOd.
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Nihilego: OHKOd.
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Cloyster: OHKOd, and Ice Shard doesn’t kill at +2.
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Other Shell Smash users like Barbaracle, Polteageist, and Omastar that would have threatened many OU teams if not for Rillaboom.
This list only includes the previously OU-relevant pokemon that Rillaboom has shut down. Essentially every single lower tier offense pokemon has also been shut out by Rillaboom. Never has a single pokemon so greatly killed the diversity and creativity of a tier. This is truly what puts Rillaboom past the line of banworthiness. When building any kind of offense team, you must strictly conform to very standard guidelines, or just have a mediocre, poorly functioning team that struggles against Rillaboom.
CALCS TO SUPPORT REASONING ABOVE:
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult in Grassy Terrain: 150-177 (47.3 - 55.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Grassy Terrain recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Azumarill in Grassy Terrain: 572-674 (167.2 - 197%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kingdra in Grassy Terrain: 249-294 (85.5 - 101%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Lele: 232-274 (82.5 - 97.5%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Koko in Grassy Terrain: 271-321 (96.4 - 114.2%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Raichu-Alola in Grassy Terrain: 409-483 (156.7 - 185%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Blacephalon in Grassy Terrain: 197-232 (79.7 - 93.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. -1 0 HP / 4 Def Blaziken in Grassy Terrain: 237-279 (78.7 - 92.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar in Grassy Terrain: 180-212 (68.9 - 81.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery and Grassy Terrain recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 0 HP / 28 Def Alakazam in Grassy Terrain: 421-496 (167.7 - 197.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gyarados in Grassy Terrain: 288-340 (87 - 102.7%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Nihilego in Grassy Terrain: 432-508 (120.3 - 141.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Cloyster in Grassy Terrain: 284-336 (117.8 - 139.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Polteageist in Grassy Terrain: 339-399 (129.8 - 152.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Thank you for those who took the time to read my explanation, and I hope you now see why Rillaboom needs to go. We’ll lose one pokemon if we ban, yes, but we will also gain several new playstyles, and once again be able to use a sweeper that doesn’t need to resist Grass. Please show support and petition the council to give Rillaboom a Suspect Test, and take back offensive team building! :)
P.S. I'd be happy to answer questions to further justify my views if anyone needs clarification or is curious.
One thing I feel people are over looking with Blaziken is the move Baton Pass. In each gen it was banned, Baton Pass was legal at the time and Blaziken was a very good user of the move. I definitely feel that it's ability to pass speed easily to teammates was a factor in the previous bans. Aside from that, everyone else hit the nail on the head, it had a way to bypass checks in each gen (sun in gen 5, mega form in gen 6, z moves in gen 7) until now.
agree with everything here, rillaboom has def become a major problem in ou, all of its checks are fucked by knock/wood hammer, and corv and skarm get zoned on. Im glad im not the only one who thinks thisWHY RILLABOOM DESERVES A BAN - By an experienced teambuilder.
Not many people believe Rillaboom is broken, or think that it deserves a ban. I’m sure some people will even skip all of this explanation, just leave a “Haha” reaction, and move on. For those of you who don’t know me, I’m Pinkacross, an RMT builder and ladder player. I’ve made several creative teams that peaked very high on the ladder this generation, featuring pokemon like Flame Charge Blacephalon, Arctozolt, Toxtricity, Umbreon, and Alolan Raichu. I’ve been around since gen 6, and after having done thousands of ladder games this generation, and having constructed over 5,000 teams in my builder, I consider myself extremely qualified to assess the quality of a metagame, and see what the problems are. And let me tell you-- the biggest problem this generation, bigger than Dracovish, Magearna, Urshifu, Spectrier, or even Cinderace-- is Rillaboom.
This isn’t because Rillaboom is singularly better than any of these pokemon. The reason Rillaboom is a bigger problem, however, is the wide reaching effect its presence had on the tier. I will go over two issues I have with Rillaboom that I believe make it ban worthy: first, its crazy breaking potential, and second (and more impactfully) the extraordinarily negative impact it has had on the metagame. I will title these two segments “Rillaboom the Breaker” and “Rillaboom the Meta Killer.” Note that for this explanation, I will primarily be discussing Choice Band Rillaboom, which is generally accepted to be the leading set. Please, when you read, keep an open mind.
Rillaboom the Breaker:
What are the walls to Rillaboom? There are quite a few: Mandibuzz, Zapdos, Moltres, Tornadus, Corviknight, Skarmory, and, in some cases, Toxapex. At first glance, it would seem as though there are sufficient viable walls to keep Rillaboom from being broken. The problem is, Rillaboom severely cripples all of these supposed switch-ins. Mandibuzz, Zapdos, Moltres, and Tornadus hate losing their Heavy Duty Boots, and will often die to one or two Wood Hammers if Stealth Rock is up. On top of this, the Wood Hammer recoil is negligible due to the Grassy Terrain healing Rillaboom receives every turn. Corviknight and Skarmory don’t appreciate losing their items either, but they aren’t as negatively impacted. That being said, without leftovers, and still taking 12% from Stealth Rock, Rillaboom can force these pokemon in repeatedly and U-turn for additional chip. Furthermore, these supposed walls are relatively easy to chip with U-turn, especially considering how many pokemon Rillaboom easily forces out. Rillaboom can also Knock Off the Shed Shell that Corviknight and Skarmory run, making them susceptible to being trapped by Magnezone, a common partner.
Consider walls to other ban worthy pokemon: Dracovish didn’t cripple Toxapex, Urshifu didn’t cripple Clefable, and Cinderace didn’t cripple Landorus-- at least not nearly to the extent that Rillaboom cripples all of its walls. It’s true that running certain combinations of walls will almost guarantee you have no problems with Rillaboom. Many combinations of Ferrothorn, Zapdos, Corviknight, and Toxapex will allow you to deal with Rillaboom easily-- but forcing people to run multiple fat walls to deal with a single pokemon is not a good or healthy system, and it encourages greater amounts of stall and semistall. A healthy meta encourages balance, not fat. Balances greatly struggle to handle Rillaboom’s ability to easily cripple each of its alleged walls. That being said, this alone is not enough for Rillaboom to deserve a ban… but it’s impact on offensive builds pushes it far over the edge.
CALCS TO SUPPORT REASONING ABOVE:
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Wood Hammer vs. 248 HP / 164+ Def Mandibuzz in Grassy Terrain: 153-180 (36.1 - 42.5%) -- 87.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Wood Hammer vs. 248 HP / 220 Def Zapdos in Grassy Terrain: 184-217 (48 - 56.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tornadus-Therian in Grassy Terrain: 243-287 (67.1 - 79.2%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable in Grassy Terrain: 357-421 (90.6 - 106.8%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex in Grassy Terrain: 217-256 (71.3 - 84.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Grassy Terrain recovery
Rillaboom the Meta Killer:
Rillaboom has single handedly over centralized offensive playstyles in a way never seen before in the history of competitive pokemon. How? Grassy Glide. Grassy Glide is a 70 base power Grass type move that becomes priority in Grassy Terrain, which Rillaboom sets upon entering. This makes Grassy Glide a stab 91 base power move (after applying the 1.3x terrain boost). This is the strongest priority move in pokemon by far. The average base power for priority is 40, examples being Mach Punch, Bullet Punch, Aqua Jet, and Quick Attack. The few exceptions to this all have huge detriments to prevent them from being broken. Sucker Punch, a move with 70 base power, only works when the opponent attacks. Extreme Speed, at 80 base power, is given to almost no pokemon, with Dragonite and Regieleki using it best. The only stab Extreme Speed user is Linoone, a completely non viable pokemon. Lastly, we have First Impression, a 90 base power move with the enormous detriment of only being usable on the first turn. In RU, where many pokemon had First Impression, HO teams easily overcame this powerful priority move by running Protect on their sweepers. Grassy Glide… has no such nerf or condition. The only thing resembling some sort of limit is the 5-turn limit of Grassy Terrain, which almost never hinders a well-played Rillaboom. This move has had a horrible effect on diversity within the tier, as well as forcing HO and offense teams to essentially choose between 10 or so pokemon to assemble a team of 6.
Do you recognize these pokemon? If you play on the ladder often, you surely do. These are the most common HO and Offense pokemon used in the tier right now. And they all have one thing in common: They resist Grass. Whether it is 4x or 2x, all of these pokemon resist Grass. This is not a coincidence. Rillaboom has forced offensive playstyles to run pokemon these pokemon, without exception. And yet, despite Offense and HO teams spamming these pokemon, Rillaboom is STILL helpful against Offense and HO, being able to pick off weakened sweepers and 2HKO Dragapult despite the type resistance.
Rillaboom has done more than just completely crush creative HO builds. Below I will list all the commonly considered “OU-relevant” pokemon and playstyles that Rillaboom has harmed, and/or completely destroyed.
Kingdra / Mantine / Drednaw / Omastar / Seismitoad, and other creative Swift Swim users: Due to the presence of Rillaboom, rain is now forced to run Ferrothorn and several birds, typically Zapdos and either Tornadus or Thundurus, making all rain teams less diverse than ever.
Psychic Terrain teams: Rillaboom evades the psychic terrain game-implemented priority nerf by setting its own terrain. Even worse, Rillaboom’s Grassy Glide is no longer a priority move when a Tapu Lele or Indeedee switches in, giving Rillaboom a high chance to OHKO Tapu Lele with Grassy Glide after Stealth Rock on switchin. Psychic Terrain as a playstyle has been crushed by Rillaboom.
Electric Terrain teams: Abusers like Alolan Raichu, Regieleki, and other Rising Voltage users are OHKOd by Rillaboom with its massive power priority move, making this almost completely unviable.
Other Shell Smash users like Barbaracle, Polteageist, and Omastar that would have threatened many OU teams if not for Rillaboom.
This list only includes the previously OU-relevant pokemon that Rillaboom has shut down. Essentially every single lower tier offense pokemon has also been shut out by Rillaboom. Never has a single pokemon so greatly killed the diversity and creativity of a tier. This is truly what puts Rillaboom past the line of banworthiness. When building any kind of offense team, you must strictly conform to very standard guidelines, or just have a mediocre, poorly functioning team that struggles against Rillaboom.
CALCS TO SUPPORT REASONING ABOVE:
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult in Grassy Terrain: 150-177 (47.3 - 55.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Grassy Terrain recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Azumarill in Grassy Terrain: 572-674 (167.2 - 197%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kingdra in Grassy Terrain: 249-294 (85.5 - 101%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Lele: 232-274 (82.5 - 97.5%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Koko in Grassy Terrain: 271-321 (96.4 - 114.2%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Raichu-Alola in Grassy Terrain: 409-483 (156.7 - 185%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Blacephalon in Grassy Terrain: 197-232 (79.7 - 93.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. -1 0 HP / 4 Def Blaziken in Grassy Terrain: 237-279 (78.7 - 92.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar in Grassy Terrain: 180-212 (68.9 - 81.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery and Grassy Terrain recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 0 HP / 28 Def Alakazam in Grassy Terrain: 421-496 (167.7 - 197.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gyarados in Grassy Terrain: 288-340 (87 - 102.7%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Nihilego in Grassy Terrain: 432-508 (120.3 - 141.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Cloyster in Grassy Terrain: 284-336 (117.8 - 139.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Polteageist in Grassy Terrain: 339-399 (129.8 - 152.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Thank you for those who took the time to read my explanation, and I hope you now see why Rillaboom needs to go. We’ll lose one pokemon if we ban, yes, but we will also gain several new playstyles, and once again be able to use a sweeper that doesn’t need to resist Grass. Please show support and petition the council to give Rillaboom a Suspect Test, and take back offensive team building! :)
P.S. I'd be happy to answer questions to further justify my views if anyone needs clarification or is curious.
The list above of picture mons in Pinkacross's post is very disingenuous because those mons viability is shot down for a number of reason this gen way beyond Rillaboom. Any tier where Torn-T is relevant things like Alakazam/Gengar are usually not good to begin with, for example. Pinkacross thats a good post, regardless of any ones opinion on it, but the list of mons you provided doesnt really further your point in comparison to paragraphs above that list of pictured mons. Strictly speaking about 1-14 number points lot of them suck because they just suck not necessarily cause of Rilla.
I agree in some parts, that it can be a pain in the ***. But its has some benefits for the meta, is one of the few mons that can revenge kill sd chomp without ice shard at high percent, if the chomp has used sd, well its dead, also Ko Zeraora is so useful, when that mon is cancer with boots. It is true that hinders heavily rain and sand but there are th8ngs that can check it, like volc, flying, Dragons and some steals, the ability of crippling its checks it what make it a little problematic.WHY RILLABOOM DESERVES A BAN - By an experienced teambuilder.
Not many people believe Rillaboom is broken, or think that it deserves a ban. I’m sure some people will even skip all of this explanation, just leave a “Haha” reaction, and move on. For those of you who don’t know me, I’m Pinkacross, an RMT builder and ladder player. I’ve made several creative teams that peaked very high on the ladder this generation, featuring pokemon like Flame Charge Blacephalon, Arctozolt, Toxtricity, Umbreon, and Alolan Raichu. I’ve been around since gen 6, and after having done thousands of ladder games this generation, and having constructed over 5,000 teams in my builder, I consider myself extremely qualified to assess the quality of a metagame, and see what the problems are. And let me tell you-- the biggest problem this generation, bigger than Dracovish, Magearna, Urshifu, Spectrier, or even Cinderace-- is Rillaboom.
This isn’t because Rillaboom is singularly better than any of these pokemon. The reason Rillaboom is a bigger problem, however, is the wide reaching effect its presence had on the tier. I will go over two issues I have with Rillaboom that I believe make it ban worthy: first, its crazy breaking potential, and second (and more impactfully) the extraordinarily negative impact it has had on the metagame. I will title these two segments “Rillaboom the Breaker” and “Rillaboom the Meta Killer.” Note that for this explanation, I will primarily be discussing Choice Band Rillaboom, which is generally accepted to be the leading set. Please, when you read, keep an open mind.
Rillaboom the Breaker:
What are the walls to Rillaboom? There are quite a few: Mandibuzz, Zapdos, Moltres, Tornadus, Corviknight, Skarmory, and, in some cases, Toxapex. At first glance, it would seem as though there are sufficient viable walls to keep Rillaboom from being broken. The problem is, Rillaboom severely cripples all of these supposed switch-ins. Mandibuzz, Zapdos, Moltres, and Tornadus hate losing their Heavy Duty Boots, and will often die to one or two Wood Hammers if Stealth Rock is up. On top of this, the Wood Hammer recoil is negligible due to the Grassy Terrain healing Rillaboom receives every turn. Corviknight and Skarmory don’t appreciate losing their items either, but they aren’t as negatively impacted. That being said, without leftovers, and still taking 12% from Stealth Rock, Rillaboom can force these pokemon in repeatedly and U-turn for additional chip. Furthermore, these supposed walls are relatively easy to chip with U-turn, especially considering how many pokemon Rillaboom easily forces out. Rillaboom can also Knock Off the Shed Shell that Corviknight and Skarmory run, making them susceptible to being trapped by Magnezone, a common partner.
Consider walls to other ban worthy pokemon: Dracovish didn’t cripple Toxapex, Urshifu didn’t cripple Clefable, and Cinderace didn’t cripple Landorus-- at least not nearly to the extent that Rillaboom cripples all of its walls. It’s true that running certain combinations of walls will almost guarantee you have no problems with Rillaboom. Many combinations of Ferrothorn, Zapdos, Corviknight, and Toxapex will allow you to deal with Rillaboom easily-- but forcing people to run multiple fat walls to deal with a single pokemon is not a good or healthy system, and it encourages greater amounts of stall and semistall. A healthy meta encourages balance, not fat. Balances greatly struggle to handle Rillaboom’s ability to easily cripple each of its alleged walls. That being said, this alone is not enough for Rillaboom to deserve a ban… but it’s impact on offensive builds pushes it far over the edge.
CALCS TO SUPPORT REASONING ABOVE:
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Wood Hammer vs. 248 HP / 164+ Def Mandibuzz in Grassy Terrain: 153-180 (36.1 - 42.5%) -- 87.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Wood Hammer vs. 248 HP / 220 Def Zapdos in Grassy Terrain: 184-217 (48 - 56.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tornadus-Therian in Grassy Terrain: 243-287 (67.1 - 79.2%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable in Grassy Terrain: 357-421 (90.6 - 106.8%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex in Grassy Terrain: 217-256 (71.3 - 84.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Grassy Terrain recovery
Rillaboom the Meta Killer:
Rillaboom has single handedly over centralized offensive playstyles in a way never seen before in the history of competitive pokemon. How? Grassy Glide. Grassy Glide is a 70 base power Grass type move that becomes priority in Grassy Terrain, which Rillaboom sets upon entering. This makes Grassy Glide a stab 91 base power move (after applying the 1.3x terrain boost). This is the strongest priority move in pokemon by far. The average base power for priority is 40, examples being Mach Punch, Bullet Punch, Aqua Jet, and Quick Attack. The few exceptions to this all have huge detriments to prevent them from being broken. Sucker Punch, a move with 70 base power, only works when the opponent attacks. Extreme Speed, at 80 base power, is given to almost no pokemon, with Dragonite and Regieleki using it best. The only stab Extreme Speed user is Linoone, a completely non viable pokemon. Lastly, we have First Impression, a 90 base power move with the enormous detriment of only being usable on the first turn. In RU, where many pokemon had First Impression, HO teams easily overcame this powerful priority move by running Protect on their sweepers. Grassy Glide… has no such nerf or condition. The only thing resembling some sort of limit is the 5-turn limit of Grassy Terrain, which almost never hinders a well-played Rillaboom. This move has had a horrible effect on diversity within the tier, as well as forcing HO and offense teams to essentially choose between 10 or so pokemon to assemble a team of 6.
Do you recognize these pokemon? If you play on the ladder often, you surely do. These are the most common HO and Offense pokemon used in the tier right now. And they all have one thing in common: They resist Grass. Whether it is 4x or 2x, all of these pokemon resist Grass. This is not a coincidence. Rillaboom has forced offensive playstyles to run pokemon these pokemon, without exception. And yet, despite Offense and HO teams spamming these pokemon, Rillaboom is STILL helpful against Offense and HO, being able to pick off weakened sweepers and 2HKO Dragapult despite the type resistance.
Rillaboom has done more than just completely crush creative HO builds. Below I will list all the commonly considered “OU-relevant” pokemon and playstyles that Rillaboom has harmed, and/or completely destroyed.
This list only includes the previously OU-relevant pokemon that Rillaboom has shut down. Essentially every single lower tier offense pokemon has also been shut out by Rillaboom. Never has a single pokemon so greatly killed the diversity and creativity of a tier. This is truly what puts Rillaboom past the line of banworthiness. When building any kind of offense team, you must strictly conform to very standard guidelines, or just have a mediocre, poorly functioning team that struggles against Rillaboom.
CALCS TO SUPPORT REASONING ABOVE:
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult in Grassy Terrain: 150-177 (47.3 - 55.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Grassy Terrain recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Azumarill in Grassy Terrain: 572-674 (167.2 - 197%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kingdra in Grassy Terrain: 249-294 (85.5 - 101%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Lele: 232-274 (82.5 - 97.5%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Koko in Grassy Terrain: 271-321 (96.4 - 114.2%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Raichu-Alola in Grassy Terrain: 409-483 (156.7 - 185%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Blacephalon in Grassy Terrain: 197-232 (79.7 - 93.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. -1 0 HP / 4 Def Blaziken in Grassy Terrain: 237-279 (78.7 - 92.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar in Grassy Terrain: 180-212 (68.9 - 81.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery and Grassy Terrain recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 0 HP / 28 Def Alakazam in Grassy Terrain: 421-496 (167.7 - 197.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gyarados in Grassy Terrain: 288-340 (87 - 102.7%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Nihilego in Grassy Terrain: 432-508 (120.3 - 141.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Cloyster in Grassy Terrain: 284-336 (117.8 - 139.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Polteageist in Grassy Terrain: 339-399 (129.8 - 152.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Thank you for those who took the time to read my explanation, and I hope you now see why Rillaboom needs to go. We’ll lose one pokemon if we ban, yes, but we will also gain several new playstyles, and once again be able to use a sweeper that doesn’t need to resist Grass. Please show support and petition the council to give Rillaboom a Suspect Test, and take back offensive team building! :)
P.S. I'd be happy to answer questions to further justify my views if anyone needs clarification or is curious.
Rilla is at least the primary contributor to their downfall, unless otherwise stated. Several pokemon were undeniably shut down by Rillaboom, as their usage plumetted after Grassy Glide was released, such as Gyarados, Polteageist, and terrain teams. The others are speculative but quite easily linked. I have also tested all of these pokemon extensively myself, and I can confirm that their greatest opponent is Rillaboom. If you would like to contest individual pokemon and let me know why you believe Rillaboom did not invalidate them, I welcome that, but to call the entire list disingenuous and insincere seems overly critical and implies malice on my behalf.
Some people think that dragapult is another issue, and some want zama tested soon, so this isnt happening any time soon, and if we ban boom, what mons are gonna check the chomp, rain, sand and electrics at the same time
I have personally tested all of these pokemon, and I can confirm that Rillaboom has held them back from viability. Until you test them, it seems uninformed to say that they suck for other reasons... Rillaboom is certainly the primary offender. If you would like to challenge my points specifically with data, I can provide further information.
The argument of "If we ban this broken thing, what will check these broken things" is widely regarded as less than a solid argument, but I will try to explain myself. The idea of banning Dragapult is ridiculous, it invalidates very few pokemon and absolutely no playstyles. Testing Zamazenta will undeniably result with it staying in ubers, so that's not really a concern. As for checking Chomp, Rain, Sand, and Electrics at the same time? Tangrowth. Other grass types exist that don't crush several playstyles.
ausma edit: please don't double post!
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Dragapult is a big offemder too, it invalidates most of the slower offensive mons, nobody is using mister mosquito so boom gets better
Seconding AM's post I disagree with the idea that those mons on the list shot down in viability solely because of rillaboom. In order to prove rillaboom as centralizing, you need to basically show that rillaboom is the sole reason these Pokemon are of low viability. Looking at the post, pokemon like blaziken, gengar, alakazam, blacephalon, gyarados, keldeo, and nihilego all have issues in the meta right now for other reasons. Like I can't go and say "Blaziken sucks solely because of rillaboom" because that is not true. Blaziken for example is weak without any boosts and has severe 4MSS, letting the entire meta take advantage of it and thus has a lowered viability. keldeo was arguably a fringe option to begin with b/c of faster threats like pult/torn-t/zera and bulky waters like king and pex being in abundance. While dedictaed terrain teams arent that good, tapu lele and koko are still fantastic mons in the meta, getting a large amount of usage recently. The only thing on the list that does make sense to me is rain, which has taken a hit b/c of rillaboom, but even then the teams run stuff like zapdos and ferrothorn to help with it. Its also not like they exist on the teams solely for the purpose of checking rilla. I'm not to experienced with gen 7 but these pokemon were ran on rain teams even in a meta without rilla, so I don't see the severity of the issue that I get from the post.
tl;dr- most of the options on the list are Pokemon that wouldn't be that good regardless of rillaboom, sure they'd be more viable if they left but its not like they'd become amazing the same way something like weavile did with magearna leaving or pult with spectrier getting the boot. I respect the ban side's opinion and see where they are coming from but I believe there's enough options to handle rillaboom and that it is arguably a healthy and fine presence in the meta. To say it invalidates something is saying that it wouldn't be OU or used more for the sole reason of it, and I do not believe that is the case for any of the options listed when it comes to rillaboom
tl;dr- most of the options on the list are Pokemon that wouldn't be that good regardless of rillaboom, sure they'd be more viable if they left but its not like they'd become amazing the same way something like weavile did with magearna leaving or pult with spectrier getting the boot. I respect the ban side's opinion and see where they are coming from but I believe there's enough options to handle rillaboom and that it is arguably a healthy and fine presence in the meta. To say it invalidates something is saying that it wouldn't be OU or used more for the sole reason of it, and I do not believe that is the case for any of the options listed when it comes to rillaboom
You have a great post if you remove the list and remove a lot of the redundant calcs. Its quite obvious a Banded STAB Terrain boosted move with an already good attack stat is going to kill Cloyster, it doesn't further your point it makes look worse. I have tested and used a lot of these as well if not all of them except Drednaw. Of course the entire list isnt disengenious but some of these like Gengar are not good because a number of viable mons above its speed tier can threaten or outright kill it. Tapu Lele is meta, if you're talking about psyspam that's like whatever. Most of the terrain users have some sort of good viability it's very common to position oneself to deter other terrains being used. Webs isn't as viable cause of boots. Things like Gyarados is one good example that Rillaboom deters heavily so can agree there. We can go on and on about the semantics of this list and how some of these are circumstantial (Rilla can lose to Cloyster if Cloy sets up and Rilla previously worn down for example you're giving Rilla users perfect scenario) but I just think it doesnt make your points better in comparison to the reasoning above it.
I'm of the opinion that the viability of some mons and to a smaller extent certain aspects of playstyles should be shot down entirely due to a couple of centralizing threats because too many viable mons in the tier creates matchup problems. This perspective we're going to have to agree to disagree here in the quoted. Still a great post regardless of the haha reacts you'll get, but it's better than reading zama-c discussion!
I will respond similarly to the other posts that looked like this one, though this is the most articulate response I've seen. I did not claim that these pokemon sucked solely because of Rillaboom, that was never a statement I made. I said Rillaboom harmed or completely destroyed these pokemon, meaning Rillaboom took them out of viability. I am confident that Rillaboom is the most major factor for the pokemon listed, through thorough testing of all of the pokemon on the list. Of course there are other reasons these pokemon are not good. If Rillaboom was the ONLY problem, they'd still all be good. That being said, Rillaboom was a major factor for all of these pokemon. I imagine you have not tested these playstyles or pokemon, but if you did, I'm sure you'd find Rillaboom was the largest roadblock preventing them from legitimate viability.
I appreciate the kind words. As for the advice about taking out the calcs, I understand. I don't need these calcs: it's quite obvious, and I'm sure you don't either, based on your stack of badges. That being said, I like to make all of my posts readable for those at any level. To you and I, it's obvious that Cloyster dies to a Grassy Glide. To a new 1200s player who sees that Cloyster has 180 base defense, it might be news to them that Rillaboom OHKOs. As for the discussion about the several pokemon you mentioned, I once again must disagree. Psychic terrain teams were very viable last generation and pre glide, with terrain extender squads letting frail pokemon set up free of the threats of priority. I was not saying Lele is bad-- Lele is A tier at the very least. I mentioned boots in my webs post as well. As for the Cloyster situation... it's very difficult to chip a Rillaboom that somebody knows is necessary to check Cloyster, especially considering grassy terrain healing. My main point is that Rillaboom has taken many offensive pokemon that don't resist grass, and made them too inconsistent to be viable in general. It's simply not worth it to use many of the pokemon on that list, and it WOULD be worth it if Rillaboom was not here. I'm not trying to say that it's solely Rillaboom's fault, but my point in general is that Rillaboom has constrained the entire offensive side of building, and forced many offensive playstyles to either die off or run 4+ grass resists. This point is irrefutable, simply based on usage stats. Thank you for the polite discourse. :)
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I just wanna point out that Rilla also completely and utterly fucks Sand as a playstyle as well as it 1hkos its 2 best sweepers (Chomp+Exca) and it setters. So you are basically required to run Corv/Skarm+Grass resist if ya wanna make sand work at all!WHY RILLABOOM DESERVES A BAN - By an experienced teambuilder.
Not many people believe Rillaboom is broken, or think that it deserves a ban. I’m sure some people will even skip all of this explanation, just leave a “Haha” reaction, and move on. For those of you who don’t know me, I’m Pinkacross, an RMT builder and ladder player. I’ve made several creative teams that peaked very high on the ladder this generation, featuring pokemon like Flame Charge Blacephalon, Arctozolt, Toxtricity, Umbreon, and Alolan Raichu. I’ve been around since gen 6, and after having done thousands of ladder games this generation, and having constructed over 5,000 teams in my builder, I consider myself extremely qualified to assess the quality of a metagame, and see what the problems are. And let me tell you-- the biggest problem this generation, bigger than Dracovish, Magearna, Urshifu, Spectrier, or even Cinderace-- is Rillaboom.
This isn’t because Rillaboom is singularly better than any of these pokemon. The reason Rillaboom is a bigger problem, however, is the wide reaching effect its presence had on the tier. I will go over two issues I have with Rillaboom that I believe make it ban worthy: first, its crazy breaking potential, and second (and more impactfully) the extraordinarily negative impact it has had on the metagame. I will title these two segments “Rillaboom the Breaker” and “Rillaboom the Meta Killer.” Note that for this explanation, I will primarily be discussing Choice Band Rillaboom, which is generally accepted to be the leading set. Please, when you read, keep an open mind.
Rillaboom the Breaker:
What are the walls to Rillaboom? There are quite a few: Mandibuzz, Zapdos, Moltres, Tornadus, Corviknight, Skarmory, and, in some cases, Toxapex. At first glance, it would seem as though there are sufficient viable walls to keep Rillaboom from being broken. The problem is, Rillaboom severely cripples all of these supposed switch-ins. Mandibuzz, Zapdos, Moltres, and Tornadus hate losing their Heavy Duty Boots, and will often die to one or two Wood Hammers if Stealth Rock is up. On top of this, the Wood Hammer recoil is negligible due to the Grassy Terrain healing Rillaboom receives every turn. Corviknight and Skarmory don’t appreciate losing their items either, but they aren’t as negatively impacted. That being said, without leftovers, and still taking 12% from Stealth Rock, Rillaboom can force these pokemon in repeatedly and U-turn for additional chip. Furthermore, these supposed walls are relatively easy to chip with U-turn, especially considering how many pokemon Rillaboom easily forces out. Rillaboom can also Knock Off the Shed Shell that Corviknight and Skarmory run, making them susceptible to being trapped by Magnezone, a common partner.
Consider walls to other ban worthy pokemon: Dracovish didn’t cripple Toxapex, Urshifu didn’t cripple Clefable, and Cinderace didn’t cripple Landorus-- at least not nearly to the extent that Rillaboom cripples all of its walls. It’s true that running certain combinations of walls will almost guarantee you have no problems with Rillaboom. Many combinations of Ferrothorn, Zapdos, Corviknight, and Toxapex will allow you to deal with Rillaboom easily-- but forcing people to run multiple fat walls to deal with a single pokemon is not a good or healthy system, and it encourages greater amounts of stall and semistall. A healthy meta encourages balance, not fat. Balances greatly struggle to handle Rillaboom’s ability to easily cripple each of its alleged walls. That being said, this alone is not enough for Rillaboom to deserve a ban… but it’s impact on offensive builds pushes it far over the edge.
CALCS TO SUPPORT REASONING ABOVE:
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Wood Hammer vs. 248 HP / 164+ Def Mandibuzz in Grassy Terrain: 153-180 (36.1 - 42.5%) -- 87.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Wood Hammer vs. 248 HP / 220 Def Zapdos in Grassy Terrain: 184-217 (48 - 56.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tornadus-Therian in Grassy Terrain: 243-287 (67.1 - 79.2%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable in Grassy Terrain: 357-421 (90.6 - 106.8%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex in Grassy Terrain: 217-256 (71.3 - 84.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Grassy Terrain recovery
Rillaboom the Meta Killer:
Rillaboom has single handedly over centralized offensive playstyles in a way never seen before in the history of competitive pokemon. How? Grassy Glide. Grassy Glide is a 70 base power Grass type move that becomes priority in Grassy Terrain, which Rillaboom sets upon entering. This makes Grassy Glide a stab 91 base power move (after applying the 1.3x terrain boost). This is the strongest priority move in pokemon by far. The average base power for priority is 40, examples being Mach Punch, Bullet Punch, Aqua Jet, and Quick Attack. The few exceptions to this all have huge detriments to prevent them from being broken. Sucker Punch, a move with 70 base power, only works when the opponent attacks. Extreme Speed, at 80 base power, is given to almost no pokemon, with Dragonite and Regieleki using it best. The only stab Extreme Speed user is Linoone, a completely non viable pokemon. Lastly, we have First Impression, a 90 base power move with the enormous detriment of only being usable on the first turn. In RU, where many pokemon had First Impression, HO teams easily overcame this powerful priority move by running Protect on their sweepers. Grassy Glide… has no such nerf or condition. The only thing resembling some sort of limit is the 5-turn limit of Grassy Terrain, which almost never hinders a well-played Rillaboom. This move has had a horrible effect on diversity within the tier, as well as forcing HO and offense teams to essentially choose between 10 or so pokemon to assemble a team of 6.
Do you recognize these pokemon? If you play on the ladder often, you surely do. These are the most common HO and Offense pokemon used in the tier right now. And they all have one thing in common: They resist Grass. Whether it is 4x or 2x, all of these pokemon resist Grass. This is not a coincidence. Rillaboom has forced offensive playstyles to run pokemon these pokemon, without exception. And yet, despite Offense and HO teams spamming these pokemon, Rillaboom is STILL helpful against Offense and HO, being able to pick off weakened sweepers and 2HKO Dragapult despite the type resistance.
Rillaboom has done more than just completely crush creative HO builds. Below I will list all the commonly considered “OU-relevant” pokemon and playstyles that Rillaboom has harmed, and/or completely destroyed.
This list only includes the previously OU-relevant pokemon that Rillaboom has shut down. Essentially every single lower tier offense pokemon has also been shut out by Rillaboom. Never has a single pokemon so greatly killed the diversity and creativity of a tier. This is truly what puts Rillaboom past the line of banworthiness. When building any kind of offense team, you must strictly conform to very standard guidelines, or just have a mediocre, poorly functioning team that struggles against Rillaboom.
CALCS TO SUPPORT REASONING ABOVE:
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult in Grassy Terrain: 150-177 (47.3 - 55.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Grassy Terrain recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Azumarill in Grassy Terrain: 572-674 (167.2 - 197%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kingdra in Grassy Terrain: 249-294 (85.5 - 101%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Lele: 232-274 (82.5 - 97.5%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Koko in Grassy Terrain: 271-321 (96.4 - 114.2%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Raichu-Alola in Grassy Terrain: 409-483 (156.7 - 185%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Blacephalon in Grassy Terrain: 197-232 (79.7 - 93.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. -1 0 HP / 4 Def Blaziken in Grassy Terrain: 237-279 (78.7 - 92.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar in Grassy Terrain: 180-212 (68.9 - 81.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery and Grassy Terrain recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 0 HP / 28 Def Alakazam in Grassy Terrain: 421-496 (167.7 - 197.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gyarados in Grassy Terrain: 288-340 (87 - 102.7%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Nihilego in Grassy Terrain: 432-508 (120.3 - 141.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Cloyster in Grassy Terrain: 284-336 (117.8 - 139.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Polteageist in Grassy Terrain: 339-399 (129.8 - 152.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Thank you for those who took the time to read my explanation, and I hope you now see why Rillaboom needs to go. We’ll lose one pokemon if we ban, yes, but we will also gain several new playstyles, and once again be able to use a sweeper that doesn’t need to resist Grass. Please show support and petition the council to give Rillaboom a Suspect Test, and take back offensive team building! :)
P.S. I'd be happy to answer questions to further justify my views if anyone needs clarification or is curious.
I just wanna point out here that it doesn't really matter if it checks Chomp+Zera. Broken checks broken is something that's always tried to be avoided and if something is broken without another broken mon then it should just be banned as well.
Thanks for the response, I apologize if my words didn't indicate what you thought. At least to sum up my views, while I do agree the Pokemon you listed would get better if Rilla left, none of them really become too viable even then. Rilla isn't the main reason even for some of them being niche such as webs or blaziken for example. While rilla is a roadblock it is far from the only one and these Pokemon/playstyles will likely suffer still in the meta even without it. Like I said, the only stuff that really likes it leaving is rain and sand, but in terms of the main overall playstyles, stuff like stall, balance, bulky offense, and hyper offense are all still viable, so as long as the big playstyles are final I don't really care about the more specific archetypes. Top Pokemon in the meta will always invalidate other pokemon and cause them to be less viable. I'm sure stuff like toxapex and garchomp also invalidate some niche shit. Does that mean they should be banned? Not at all. I guess what I'm trying to say is I disagree with the idea of banning a Pokemon that is healthy and fine in the meta for rising the viability of some niche stuff from C tier to B tier MAX. Realistically none of the Pokemon you mentioned would crack B in terms of viability even without rillaboom so is it really worth removing? I don't want to clutter the thread back and forth so if you want to continue the discussion it can be done over PMs or something. I def think we will end up agreeing to disagree but still glad to have this discussion.
Well it's not your place to say whether it'll happen soon. Also, while I'm not entirely decided on whether Rillaboom is broken, that's easily the worst argument you could make for keeping it in the tier. The whole point of the initial post by Pinkacross was that Rillaboom invalidates or severely neuters a ton of offensive playstyles. If it's banned, it would be because it overcentralizes the tier. The only argument for keeping it in the tier is if it doesn't do that. Not that it blanket checks certain threats/playstyles.
Red Raven
I COULD BE BANNED!
I'm gonna have to disagree with banning Rillaboom. Yes it's incredibly annoying especially with how its design somehow has an external object but I don't think it's broken at all. It's just like the case of every mon in ou, it has only like two or three mons that can reliably switch in and force it out while a lot of mons force it out or kills it if they get a free switch and it has a way of crippling those two or three mons
Rillaboom is not broken like in the case of Urshifu where no Buzzwole = auto lose or Magearna where you have to pray that your team has a good matchup against the million of options it has but if you want to be safe from all of its a million options, you're vulnerable to the rest of the tier. There are a lot of counter play and as I said earlier, only few can reliably switch in but a lot more can beat it if they get safe switch ins. Tapu Lele for example, is a great check but that's just it, a check, not a counter. Rilla is also countered by metal birds and Tangrowth and they have their own use outside of merely checking one mon like Buzzwole did so you're not exactly crippling yourself that much by using them
Don't get me wrong, I find Rillaboom incredibly irritating but it's far from unmanageable for it to be banned. You may have to account for it when building teams but then again, you always have to do that with every threat in the tier
Also, that list you mentioned that Rilla invalidates is flawed as there are other major points on why they aren't that good
1. Tapu Lele is the one responsible for Azumarill's fall. Rilla wasn't around in gen seven while Lele was and I believe that was when Azu started to falter because it can't do anything with Lele's terrain. Again, Lele only checks Azu not counter
2. I can agree but on the other hand, rain already wants to have a bird on its team because rain just offers so much yet doesn't have enough team slots, unless it's gen five where rain was permanent but it no longer is
3. Tapu Lele is one of the most dominant breakers right now with only Aegislash being the one true counter. Rilla doesn't invalidate psychic terrain because it dies if it recklessly switches in. The opposite is also true, psychic terrain summoners die instantly if they switch in recklessly against Rilla. Again, a case of checks and not counters
4. The same case as above, except for Regileki because it sucks
5. I'm not exactly sure on this one though since sticky web teams have their Galarian Zapdos and Bisharp which don't die to grassy glide unless severely weakened
6. This thing has pathetic defensive stats. Pure offensive pokemon can barely take any hits even if its resist. If you want further proof then look at how Blaziken with life orb one shots Dragapult with flare blitz after swords dance, even with jolly nature. Types alone don't dictate if a mon should survive a resisted move
7. Same case as Lele, it checks Rilla, not counters it
8. I kinda agree with this one to be honest. The generations have been rough for Gengar and somehow the removal of Tyranitar's pursuit didn't help much
9. Zam isn't exactly that afraid of Rilla. In fact, it is the other way around. If Zam has sash, it just destroys Rilla or at least greatly weaken it. If Zam managed to get nasty plot up, Rilla is toast. I don't really think life orb Zam is that good anyway because it's real issue is starting to appear, frailty and it wants every item in the game. Without nasty plot, it has a rather hard time getting kills and it's 120 speed is no longer as special as it was in gen five. Without sash, it dies to everything but with sash, only Garchomp can reliably kill it in one turn but it also wants the power of life orb which in doing so would only leaves it more vulnerable
10. Hasn't Gyarados been going downhill since gen six?
11. As someone who spammed Keldeo a lot, Rillaboom is not its only issue. The burn nerf and Toxapex has been its downfall. The metagame trends aren't exactly kind to it. It was still unwallable in rain, until Slowking rose because its talents were needed to handle Lele and had the side effect of hard countering Keldeo
12. Rilla isn't even the biggest perpetrator to this one. It's ou's unending supply of steel types. Rilla is just one that came along that made it worse. Steel types are the ones that invalidates Nihilego as a mon. Ou's monstrous ground types and lack of hidden power also made Nihilego worse
13. Don't shell smash users have issues outside of Rilla? Like bulky waters or something?
All in all, despite my own personal distaste for Rillaboom, it fits in with ou quite nicely. It's just like all the mons in the tier, having next to no counter but is checked by a lot of offensive threats in the tier. It has sufficient enough counter play for me not to think its banworthy. Yes I hate this mon especially with its dumb design but it's not problematic enough for it to be banned
I've said this before, if we ban Rillaboom on the basis that it can cripple its own answers then we might as well ban nearly everything in ou. Ferrothorn, Heatran, Garchomp and Dragapult are just some of those mons that can cripple their own answers. Ferrothorn is the most annoying mon in the tier and one of the most reliable knock off spammer, Heatran has a lot of options with magma taunt or power herb or whatever while Garchomp is only slowed down by Lando, which it beats over the course of a long game and can choose on whether it loses to Mandibuzz or Corviknight. Dragapult is the same, it only truly loses to Mandibuzz, which it can screw over with its status options or turn into u turn fodder
Banning mons with that basis, in my opinion, would also kill the prediction part of the game, specifically double switches. I mean, you're supposed to be thinking about what you're enemy might do and make a prediction based on what options he or she has and the most ideal scenario, given the statement that ou mons have little to no counters, is to get your check in at the same time they get their threat in so you can be a few steps ahead
PS
Rillaboom is not broken like in the case of Urshifu where no Buzzwole = auto lose or Magearna where you have to pray that your team has a good matchup against the million of options it has but if you want to be safe from all of its a million options, you're vulnerable to the rest of the tier. There are a lot of counter play and as I said earlier, only few can reliably switch in but a lot more can beat it if they get safe switch ins. Tapu Lele for example, is a great check but that's just it, a check, not a counter. Rilla is also countered by metal birds and Tangrowth and they have their own use outside of merely checking one mon like Buzzwole did so you're not exactly crippling yourself that much by using them
Don't get me wrong, I find Rillaboom incredibly irritating but it's far from unmanageable for it to be banned. You may have to account for it when building teams but then again, you always have to do that with every threat in the tier
Also, that list you mentioned that Rilla invalidates is flawed as there are other major points on why they aren't that good
1. Tapu Lele is the one responsible for Azumarill's fall. Rilla wasn't around in gen seven while Lele was and I believe that was when Azu started to falter because it can't do anything with Lele's terrain. Again, Lele only checks Azu not counter
2. I can agree but on the other hand, rain already wants to have a bird on its team because rain just offers so much yet doesn't have enough team slots, unless it's gen five where rain was permanent but it no longer is
3. Tapu Lele is one of the most dominant breakers right now with only Aegislash being the one true counter. Rilla doesn't invalidate psychic terrain because it dies if it recklessly switches in. The opposite is also true, psychic terrain summoners die instantly if they switch in recklessly against Rilla. Again, a case of checks and not counters
4. The same case as above, except for Regileki because it sucks
5. I'm not exactly sure on this one though since sticky web teams have their Galarian Zapdos and Bisharp which don't die to grassy glide unless severely weakened
6. This thing has pathetic defensive stats. Pure offensive pokemon can barely take any hits even if its resist. If you want further proof then look at how Blaziken with life orb one shots Dragapult with flare blitz after swords dance, even with jolly nature. Types alone don't dictate if a mon should survive a resisted move
7. Same case as Lele, it checks Rilla, not counters it
8. I kinda agree with this one to be honest. The generations have been rough for Gengar and somehow the removal of Tyranitar's pursuit didn't help much
9. Zam isn't exactly that afraid of Rilla. In fact, it is the other way around. If Zam has sash, it just destroys Rilla or at least greatly weaken it. If Zam managed to get nasty plot up, Rilla is toast. I don't really think life orb Zam is that good anyway because it's real issue is starting to appear, frailty and it wants every item in the game. Without nasty plot, it has a rather hard time getting kills and it's 120 speed is no longer as special as it was in gen five. Without sash, it dies to everything but with sash, only Garchomp can reliably kill it in one turn but it also wants the power of life orb which in doing so would only leaves it more vulnerable
10. Hasn't Gyarados been going downhill since gen six?
11. As someone who spammed Keldeo a lot, Rillaboom is not its only issue. The burn nerf and Toxapex has been its downfall. The metagame trends aren't exactly kind to it. It was still unwallable in rain, until Slowking rose because its talents were needed to handle Lele and had the side effect of hard countering Keldeo
12. Rilla isn't even the biggest perpetrator to this one. It's ou's unending supply of steel types. Rilla is just one that came along that made it worse. Steel types are the ones that invalidates Nihilego as a mon. Ou's monstrous ground types and lack of hidden power also made Nihilego worse
13. Don't shell smash users have issues outside of Rilla? Like bulky waters or something?
All in all, despite my own personal distaste for Rillaboom, it fits in with ou quite nicely. It's just like all the mons in the tier, having next to no counter but is checked by a lot of offensive threats in the tier. It has sufficient enough counter play for me not to think its banworthy. Yes I hate this mon especially with its dumb design but it's not problematic enough for it to be banned
I've said this before, if we ban Rillaboom on the basis that it can cripple its own answers then we might as well ban nearly everything in ou. Ferrothorn, Heatran, Garchomp and Dragapult are just some of those mons that can cripple their own answers. Ferrothorn is the most annoying mon in the tier and one of the most reliable knock off spammer, Heatran has a lot of options with magma taunt or power herb or whatever while Garchomp is only slowed down by Lando, which it beats over the course of a long game and can choose on whether it loses to Mandibuzz or Corviknight. Dragapult is the same, it only truly loses to Mandibuzz, which it can screw over with its status options or turn into u turn fodder
Banning mons with that basis, in my opinion, would also kill the prediction part of the game, specifically double switches. I mean, you're supposed to be thinking about what you're enemy might do and make a prediction based on what options he or she has and the most ideal scenario, given the statement that ou mons have little to no counters, is to get your check in at the same time they get their threat in so you can be a few steps ahead
PS
That was only for the metagame because I would really love to ban Rillaboom for no other reason than its design sucks. Like why in the seven hells is a drum part of a pokemon
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I think Rillaboom is a solid threat in the tier and a Pokemon that exerts a great amount of pressure both in game and in teambuilder, but I do not think its broken right now, although I don't mind a suspect.
But I'm very glad you brought up this topic, because there's another Pokemon that actually is a really good teammate to Rillaboom and has been quietly ascending the ranks of the meta.
I already talked about this a while back, but I want to discuss the topic again because things have changed. In the recent usage stats, Heatran had a whopping 21.86% usage. Heatran is NUMBER THREE (+6, it was #9 in March usage stats) IN USAGE. I literally don't even remember the last time it was this high, if ever. This means one in five teams have Heatran on their team, which is absolutely crazy to think about. Usage does not equal something being centralizing, but this massive increase should definitely be noted. I know some people might think Heatran is a necessary evil because of the very common Toxapex/Corviknight + ground type running around, but I'm not sure if that's all so valid of an argument. More and more Toxapex's are running Shed Shell, and we are still seeing an increase in the usage of Earthquake on not only Glowking, but even Slowking and Slowbro. The defensive dragons, including the new-ish SpD Garchomp, that are running around in high ladder are not specifically for Heatran, but they do find their spot on teams BECAUSE of their ability to check Heatran. These are all indications that Heatran is starting to increase his pressure in the teambuilder even more.
Both Body Press and Heavy Slam have been rising in tournament usage, but also on the ladder as well, as now Heatran can utilize them to wallbreak even harder. He gets to trap and kill Blissey while preserving more HP than usual, and he gets to completely eliminate Tyranitar as a possible check or counter. Heavy Slam provides constant damage to fairies including Tapu Fini. It's also worthy to note that these two moves also hit Kyurem on the switch, which is actually really huge for Heatran. These are not even the only sets Heatran can run, as Power Herb + Solar Beam is still a valid option, and so is Nature Power with all the terrain spam going around. Rillaboom is already a fantastic partner to Heatran, so a grassy terrain boosted Nature Power can be easily slapped on if the player wills it. Misty Terrain in particular helps Heatran gets past Garchomp, which is probably its most common switch-in, and the occasional Hydreigon.
The fact that Heatran, of all different Pokemon, is becoming more and more versatile is especially scary, and although most people probably don't agree on a ban, I think that Heatran is definitely worthy of a suspect test. If not immediately, at least in the near future.
But I'm very glad you brought up this topic, because there's another Pokemon that actually is a really good teammate to Rillaboom and has been quietly ascending the ranks of the meta.
I already talked about this a while back, but I want to discuss the topic again because things have changed. In the recent usage stats, Heatran had a whopping 21.86% usage. Heatran is NUMBER THREE (+6, it was #9 in March usage stats) IN USAGE. I literally don't even remember the last time it was this high, if ever. This means one in five teams have Heatran on their team, which is absolutely crazy to think about. Usage does not equal something being centralizing, but this massive increase should definitely be noted. I know some people might think Heatran is a necessary evil because of the very common Toxapex/Corviknight + ground type running around, but I'm not sure if that's all so valid of an argument. More and more Toxapex's are running Shed Shell, and we are still seeing an increase in the usage of Earthquake on not only Glowking, but even Slowking and Slowbro. The defensive dragons, including the new-ish SpD Garchomp, that are running around in high ladder are not specifically for Heatran, but they do find their spot on teams BECAUSE of their ability to check Heatran. These are all indications that Heatran is starting to increase his pressure in the teambuilder even more.
Both Body Press and Heavy Slam have been rising in tournament usage, but also on the ladder as well, as now Heatran can utilize them to wallbreak even harder. He gets to trap and kill Blissey while preserving more HP than usual, and he gets to completely eliminate Tyranitar as a possible check or counter. Heavy Slam provides constant damage to fairies including Tapu Fini. It's also worthy to note that these two moves also hit Kyurem on the switch, which is actually really huge for Heatran. These are not even the only sets Heatran can run, as Power Herb + Solar Beam is still a valid option, and so is Nature Power with all the terrain spam going around. Rillaboom is already a fantastic partner to Heatran, so a grassy terrain boosted Nature Power can be easily slapped on if the player wills it. Misty Terrain in particular helps Heatran gets past Garchomp, which is probably its most common switch-in, and the occasional Hydreigon.
The fact that Heatran, of all different Pokemon, is becoming more and more versatile is especially scary, and although most people probably don't agree on a ban, I think that Heatran is definitely worthy of a suspect test. If not immediately, at least in the near future.
I also wanted give my two cents on this topic. Firstly a great post! I completely agree that it is an amazing wallbreaker, probably one of the best in the tier. Knock off and U-turn are notorious for being able to punish defensive play and force progress. Glide helps so much in this effort, helping it threaten out faster mons that usually would OHKO it. With access to basically a stab move stronger than Stab Giga Impact and terrain recovery, helping it heal off chip, it is meant to be a top tier offensive presence.
However, it is important to that that the answers that you mention are still pretty reliable because it takes 4 turns and 2 switch ins and 2 predictions to get past them, first knock off, second getting rocks up and 2 turns of wood hammer. While it is entirely possible to do this in battle, it is also entirely possible to deny your opponent this or at least prevent it till late game from where it is too late for Rilla to clean up. That mon that you mention, Zapdos also has 3 chances to leave him with a parting gift.
Also there are a lot of mons that are not as crippled by knock off and are amazing checks to it. You have a lot of other options like Scizor, Tang, Amoongus, Ferro (Against non-superpower variants) etc. Corvi is something I have saved till now, but is top tier mon in it's own right and is an extremely reliable answer to Rilla outside of Zone. (If defensive answers getting trapped becomes a problem, then we have always looked at the trapper not the mon that is enabled by the trapper)
Rilla has more than sufficient counterplay. It is very good but not overwhelming.
Actually Dracovish straight up 2HKOed Pex after rocks. Only Bunker variants were a check. The only other checks to Vish were Water Absorb mons.
252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 141-167 (46.3 - 54.9%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
Urshifu also 2HKOed Clef with Jab. If Clef took a Jab and switched out, it was later 2HKOed by either of CC or Wicked Blow. Buzzwole was the only check to Urshifu. Despite this Clef being one of the best answers to it just shows how broken it was but thankfully is is banned now.
252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 230-272 (58.3 - 69%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable on a critical hit: 129-153 (32.7 - 38.8%) -- 5.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Lando had no recovery and just got chipped down. It could not touch it back either as Cind was fatser and got out with U turn. The only semi reliable checks to it were Hippo and Mandi but they got U-turned out on just like everything else.
-1 252 Atk Cinderace Pyro Ball vs. 252 HP / 112+ Def Landorus-Therian: 106-126 (27.7 - 32.9%) -- 88.2% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
The mons that you mention straight up broke past their checks and had much lesser checks than Rilla. There is no comparison between them and Rilla.
I would argue that this is actually indeed just a coincidence. Grass is a very sub par typing offensively. It is resisted by 8 out of 18 types. Almost half. Even other top tier offensive mons like Lucha, Kyurem, Torn T resist grass. Even the rarer offensive mons like Zapdos G, Victini, Lati twins, Dracozolt, Blaziken and Gengar resist grass (While the latter 2 still take huge damage, their resist does help them prevent the OHKO). Even niche offensive mons like Aegis, Kommo O, Celesteela etc. resist grass. Mons without resist like Lando, Lele, Koko, Weavile are also often used on offense, however they do have Indimidate/terrain change/ Priority of their own to have recourse against Rilla. Perhaps the biggest example of Rilla not being the be all end all when it comes to viability of offensive mons that you didn't mention is Chomp. It is one of the most devastating offensive mons in the tier and a top offensive mon. It has absolutely no recourse against Glide and has to take the full brunt of one. Despite this it is one of the best mons on HO.Rillaboom the Meta Killer:
Rillaboom has single handedly over centralized offensive playstyles in a way never seen before in the history of competitive pokemon. How? Grassy Glide. Grassy Glide is a 70 base power Grass type move that becomes priority in Grassy Terrain, which Rillaboom sets upon entering. This makes Grassy Glide a stab 91 base power move (after applying the 1.3x terrain boost). This is the strongest priority move in pokemon by far. The average base power for priority is 40, examples being Mach Punch, Bullet Punch, Aqua Jet, and Quick Attack. The few exceptions to this all have huge detriments to prevent them from being broken. Sucker Punch, a move with 70 base power, only works when the opponent attacks. Extreme Speed, at 80 base power, is given to almost no pokemon, with Dragonite and Regieleki using it best. The only stab Extreme Speed user is Linoone, a completely non viable pokemon. Lastly, we have First Impression, a 90 base power move with the enormous detriment of only being usable on the first turn. In RU, where many pokemon had First Impression, HO teams easily overcame this powerful priority move by running Protect on their sweepers. Grassy Glide… has no such nerf or condition. The only thing resembling some sort of limit is the 5-turn limit of Grassy Terrain, which almost never hinders a well-played Rillaboom. This move has had a horrible effect on diversity within the tier, as well as forcing HO and offense teams to essentially choose between 10 or so pokemon to assemble a team of 6.
Do you recognize these pokemon? If you play on the ladder often, you surely do. These are the most common HO and Offense pokemon used in the tier right now. And they all have one thing in common: They resist Grass. Whether it is 4x or 2x, all of these pokemon resist Grass. This is not a coincidence. Rillaboom has forced offensive playstyles to run pokemon these pokemon, without exception. And yet, despite Offense and HO teams spamming these pokemon, Rillaboom is STILL helpful against Offense and HO, being able to pick off weakened sweepers and 2HKO Dragapult despite the type resistance.
That being said, I am not saying it has no affect on offensive mons. Crawdaunt and particularly Gyarados are two mons that would be much better without Rilla. Sand and Rain would also be better without Rilla but Rilla keeps rain in check (Honestly? Thank god for that.) and both have plenty of answers for it, former having steels and regen grasses and later having the multitude of hurricane spamming flyers with ferro waiting in the wings. There are just a handful of mons that Rilla truly pushed out of the meta and even these have lot of other flaws.
Lastly, I mean it is still very powerful. Also these mons are resistant not immune. Even a resisted Glide is stronger than a neutral Aqua Jet, Mach Punch, Bullet Punch, Ice Shard, what have you. Any priority mons will always be helpful to revenge kill weakened sweepers. It is not specific to Rilla particularly. A case can be made for it's priority being too strong but that is just the part of the metagame now and not enough to warrant a ban.
As I showed in the above points, so many mons naturally resist grass/ have other forms of counterplay so you still have a HUGE selection to choose from. There may be some mons that Rilla is suffocating presence for, but saying it has completely crushed creative HO builds is an overstatement.
1) Rilla is definitely the biggest offender for Azu being pushed out. But Lele is equally responsible. Also there are just a lot of Dragons, Grasses, Waters in the tier that can revenge kill it. A Belly Drum mon relying so heavily on priority is always going to be semi reliable.Below I will list all the commonly considered “OU-relevant” pokemon and playstyles that Rillaboom has harmed, and/or completely destroyed.
2) Kingdra and Seismitoad are still viable on rain and are often seen on it as well. Mantine became bad when we found out that Metronome was coded incorrectly. It can't break now. Drednaw has been bad since Dynamax ban WAY before Rilla got Glide. It just struggles to dish out relevant damage. Technically, Rilla is not even a factor in selecting Swift Swimmers. All of them are killed by Rilla so you need backup for it anyway, Swift Swimmers are solely selected on their merit in the meta game. Barra and Drednaw are both revenged by Rilla but almost no rain will go without the former while the latter is almost never seen.
As to the point of Ferro and birds. Even in gen 7, rains carried Ferro + Torn. They just have amazing synergy together. Ferro was a rain staple even in Pre Glide gen 8. I would actually argue that rain has become a lot more diverse as we have so many waters to chose from like Barra, Sesmi, Kingdra, Urshifu etc. and so many fliers like Torn, Zapdos, Thund, etc. In gen 7, rain was static, mostly Peli, Mega Pert, Ferro, Torn, Ash Gren + one more (Koko, Manaphy, Gyarados being populare choices)
3) I will give you this. Psychic terrain blocking priority can't be used for team now. The team that is going around on ladder with Lele + Espeon + 4 Shell Smashers just gets owned by Rilla. That being said it is still at least relevant for Lele as it can switch into Rilla for revenge killing it. But Rilla can also switch into Lele for revenge killing it. Neither can hard switch into each other. Indeedee is just outclassed by Lele and is not upto mark with OU's power level so that's the main reason you don't see it not Rilla.
4) Raichu is just not up to snuff with OU power level again. This is starkly visible when it isn't clicking Rising Voltage. It is still a a niche option at best. Rilla does threaten it out but it is not as crippled as Psychic terrain teams as it can just switch out and come back in again later. Rilla is the least of Regieleki's worries as the multitude of ground types take priority over it. Koko is a top tier mon despite Rilla.
5) As a person with their favorite play style being webs and having a lot of experience with it, I can very confidently say that Rilla is not what pushed Webs to unviablility. It is not partly because of boots but majorly because of boots and partly because it has never been easier to defog. TBH, Webs mostly will have have Bish or Zapdos G. Dragons like Dnite, Pult etc. are great on webs. Steels like Sciz, Aegis are also good on webs. Crawdaunt is one mon I think Rilla discourages the use of on Webs but that is a minor problem compared to major ones, boots and defog.
6) Blace is actually a bit underrated. It's sub calm mind speed boosting set is still pretty good to break defense. Specs is a nuke. The man reason it is not used is as Pult is just superior due to speed.
7) Blaziken has a lot of struggles in the tier with it's speed prior to boost, 4MSS, killing itself on it's own, lack of power prior to boost and fragility.
8) Gengar is also a bit underrated. It's Sub NP set is great. It also overshadowed by Pult due to speed.
9) Alakazam is just held back due to it's absolutely non existent bulk. Even Pex can 2HKO it with knock off. It just gets destroyed in return by every single mon that survives it's attack. Sash Counter is cheese but your best bet of getting use out of Alakazam. That set actually would even bait Rilla. That being said, nobody would fall for Counter Zam now.
10) I will give you this one too. Gyarados really is just shut down by Rilla too hard. It would most probably be a viable HO mon if Rilla wasn't around.
11)Keldeo struggles against Slow twins, Pex, Fini, Koko, Zeraora, Pult etc. Rilla is also a problem but not the only one by far.
12)Nihilego faces the problem of having no move to hit steels.
13) Cloyster is actually still used a decent bit. Also the chip required to kill Rilla is minimum. One RH hit or 2 switch ins to rocks are enough.
14) Shell Smashers have always been niche in OU. They can frequently be walled or perhaps not even get a chance to set up.
I do agree with points 3) and 10). Psychic terrain teams and Gyarados are definitely the biggest victims of Rilla. They are just borderline unviable mostly due to it.
Azu and Shell Smashers are also hindered by Rilla but they have big problems outside of Rilla already that still make them niche at best.
Webs, Rain, Electric spam don't enjoy Rilla but they can play around it.
I think your points 6) to 12) except 10) were not completely relevant. Any faster mons be it with Scarf/ priority / naturally faster can revenge these mons. This is not just limited to Rilla. You were just showing that Rilla can kill these mons too and that Glide is very powerful. They have a ton of other problems that actually prevent them from being genuinely good in OU. Rilla is not the reason they aren't OU.
As I said above, all these mons are not solely shut down by Rilla and have other flaws as well. Also not all these mons were OU irrelevant.
Another overstatement of Rilla shutting out every single lower tier offensive mons. There a ton of lower tier mons like Kommo O, Toxtricity, Diggersby, Mimikyu etc. which can still be used in OU. They are mediocre that's why they aren't used often not because of Rilla.
Again, it has not killed the diversity and creativity of the tier. There are still a ton of mons viable on offense. There are only a handful of mons that Rilla has pushed out on it's own.
That is true for any team style. There are so many threats running around nowadays that you have to keep in mind some big ones. Standards are considered good because they can go toe to toe with a majority of what you will face.
I mean a lot of playstyles will become better, no doubt, but we will only gain back Psychic Terrain teams which is still gimmicky. All other playstyles are either already viable (like rain, sand, screens, etc.) or will remain unviable even without Rilla (Webs, Trick room, Electric Spam, etc.)
We would gain the ability to use sweepers not resistant to grass but that is mostly only relevant to Gyarados. There are not many other sweepers without grass resist that I think will rise to OU without Rilla.
Well, thanks for reading my post. I do agree that Rilla is very annoying and a cheap mon. I actually can even see where people are coming from when they say that Rilla is broken but it just doesn't seem broken to me. The biggest hinderance of it is that grass is just too bad offensively. That sole fact keeps it in check in my eyes despite having such a broken mechanic.
TailGlowVM
Now 100% more demonic
I have to strongly disagree on a Heatran suspect test, for several reasons:I think Rillaboom is a solid threat in the tier and a Pokemon that exerts a great amount of pressure both in game and in teambuilder, but I do not think its broken right now, although I don't mind a suspect.
But I'm very glad you brought up this topic, because there's another Pokemon that actually is a really good teammate to Rillaboom and has been quietly ascending the ranks of the meta.
I already talked about this a while back, but I want to discuss the topic again because things have changed. In the recent usage stats, Heatran had a whopping 21.86% usage. Heatran is NUMBER THREE (+6, it was #9 in March usage stats) IN USAGE. I literally don't even remember the last time it was this high, if ever. This means one in five teams have Heatran on their team, which is absolutely crazy to think about. Usage does not equal something being centralizing, but this massive increase should definitely be noted. I know some people might think Heatran is a necessary evil because of the very common Toxapex/Corviknight + ground type running around, but I'm not sure if that's all so valid of an argument. More and more Toxapex's are running Shed Shell, and we are still seeing an increase in the usage of Earthquake on not only Glowking, but even Slowking and Slowbro. The defensive dragons, including the new-ish SpD Garchomp, that are running around in high ladder are not specifically for Heatran, but they do find their spot on teams BECAUSE of their ability to check Heatran. These are all indications that Heatran is starting to increase his pressure in the teambuilder even more.
Both Body Press and Heavy Slam have been rising in tournament usage, but also on the ladder as well, as now Heatran can utilize them to wallbreak even harder. He gets to trap and kill Blissey while preserving more HP than usual, and he gets to completely eliminate Tyranitar as a possible check or counter. Heavy Slam provides constant damage to fairies including Tapu Fini. It's also worthy to note that these two moves also hit Kyurem on the switch, which is actually really huge for Heatran. These are not even the only sets Heatran can run, as Power Herb + Solar Beam is still a valid option, and so is Nature Power with all the terrain spam going around. Rillaboom is already a fantastic partner to Heatran, so a grassy terrain boosted Nature Power can be easily slapped on if the player wills it. Misty Terrain in particular helps Heatran gets past Garchomp, which is probably its most common switch-in, and the occasional Hydreigon.
The fact that Heatran, of all different Pokemon, is becoming more and more versatile is especially scary, and although most people probably don't agree on a ban, I think that Heatran is definitely worthy of a suspect test. If not immediately, at least in the near future.
- No reliable recovery: For example, even if Heatran can trap Blissey, Seismic Toss wears it down significantly, so it might not be able to check another threat later on. Leftovers do help, but they are going to get Knocked Off in this metagame. Choice Specs Tapu Lele can force it on and wear it down for something like Tornadus-T to break through later on.
- Low speed: Almost every viable offensive Pokemon outspeeds even faster variants of Heatran, and some defensive Pokemon will too, like Zapdos and some sets of Tapu Fini, so this further adds to wearing it down.
- Typing: While Heatran gets many great specially-focused resistances, it doesn't resist very many physical types at all. Almost every physical attacker has a neutral STAB or can run supereffective coverage, like Rillaboom's Superpower and Kartana's Sacred Sword. Its three weaknesses are exploitable, with Ground-types on almost every serious team, various Pokemon it might want to wall running coverage moves like Tornadus-T, Tapu Lele, and Kyurem, and its Ground weakness being particularly exploitable by Pokemon like the Slowthings as you mentioned before.
- You don't need niche Pokemon to beat it: Slowking is one of the best specially defensive walls at the moment, checking important threats like Tapu Lele and Tornadus-T. Although defensive Hydreigon was trash, offensive variants with Roost can still check it fine, so you're not limited to passive Pokemon. Specially defensive Garchomp is a good check to Volcarona if you have a Rock move and Zapdos. Tapu Fini is probably the game's best answer to Hex Dragapult, and does fine against Specs without Thunderbolt too.
- It keeps numerous Pokemon healthy: How are you going to beat Volcarona consistently without Heatran to hardwall it? Is Clefable going to be uncontrollable without a consistent switchin like Heatran? Do you want to have to suspect Toxapex too? Banning Heatran would also mean losing one of the biggest deterrents to clicking Grassy Glide. Whilst it's true that a broken Pokemon can keep other broken Pokemon in check (like arguably banning Urshifu took Spectrier over the top as there was no longer that splashable, straightforward revenge killer to it), I think all these other disadvantages should balance it out.
Great post, and tbh I kinda agree with you. I never thought Heatran was a particular problem before, but recently I‘ve started to reconsider. I think perhaps the biggest issue with Heatran is that trapper sets are absolutely impossible to switch-in to, because there’s simply nothing that can handle the combination of Magma Storm/Toxic/Earth Power/Taunt. The ability to trap and disable almost every wall in the tier is a little ridiculous, and since Taunt stops you from stalling Heatran out, the only way to beat it is to threaten the KO, which most walls can’t do. The most consistent defensive answers to trapper Heatran right now are Hydreigon, Heal Bell Dnite, spdef Chomp, Gastrodon and Tapu Fini. Hydreigon, Chomp and Gastrodon hate Toxic, Fini and Gastrodon get destroyed by Solar Beam sets, and Fini and Chomp have no recovery. Heal Bell Dnite is probably the most consistent check, but only till it runs out of Heal Bells or loses its HDB and gets chunked by rocks. As you point out, due to its versatility and movepool Heatran can essentially choose its counters.RufflesPro said:I think Rillaboom is a solid threat in the tier and a Pokemon that exerts a great amount of pressure both in game and in teambuilder, but I do not think its broken right now, although I don't mind a suspect.
But I'm very glad you brought up this topic, because there's another Pokemon that actually is a really good teammate to Rillaboom and has been quietly ascending the ranks of the meta.
I already talked about this a while back, but I want to discuss the topic again because things have changed. In the recent usage stats, Heatran had a whopping 21.86% usage. Heatran is NUMBER THREE (+6, it was #9 in March usage stats) IN USAGE. I literally don't even remember the last time it was this high, if ever. This means one in five teams have Heatran on their team, which is absolutely crazy to think about. Usage does not equal something being centralizing, but this massive increase should definitely be noted. I know some people might think Heatran is a necessary evil because of the very common Toxapex/Corviknight + ground type running around, but I'm not sure if that's all so valid of an argument. More and more Toxapex's are running Shed Shell, and we are still seeing an increase in the usage of Earthquake on not only Glowking, but even Slowking and Slowbro. The defensive dragons, including the new-ish SpD Garchomp, that are running around in high ladder are not specifically for Heatran, but they do find their spot on teams BECAUSE of their ability to check Heatran. These are all indications that Heatran is starting to increase his pressure in the teambuilder even more.
Both Body Press and Heavy Slam have been rising in tournament usage, but also on the ladder as well, as now Heatran can utilize them to wallbreak even harder. He gets to trap and kill Blissey while preserving more HP than usual, and he gets to completely eliminate Tyranitar as a possible check or counter. Heavy Slam provides constant damage to fairies including Tapu Fini. It's also worthy to note that these two moves also hit Kyurem on the switch, which is actually really huge for Heatran. These are not even the only sets Heatran can run, as Power Herb + Solar Beam is still a valid option, and so is Nature Power with all the terrain spam going around. Rillaboom is already a fantastic partner to Heatran, so a grassy terrain boosted Nature Power can be easily slapped on if the player wills it. Misty Terrain in particular helps Heatran gets past Garchomp, which is probably its most common switch-in, and the occasional Hydreigon.
The fact that Heatran, of all different Pokemon, is becoming more and more versatile is especially scary, and although most people probably don't agree on a ban, I think that Heatran is definitely worthy of a suspect test. If not immediately, at least in the near future.
While trapping sets are the most popular, it’s also worth mentioning the Specs Eruption isn‘t a terrible set and is difficult to switch in to, especially if you’re not expecting it. Heatran also provides superb defensive utility, since it can counter Volcarona and switch into stuff like Specs Lele and Kyurem if they click a STAB move. IMO, Heatran’s strengths more than make up for its weaknesses, especially since pivoting can easily get Heatran in for free. I would support a suspect for Heatran, though I‘m not sure how I’d vote (if I got the reqs, which I wouldn’t). Low speed and lack of recovery do go some way in keeping it balanced, but things like Slowking running EQ and Pex running Shed Shell specifically for Heatran are worrying.
Also, my two cents on Rillaboom-it’s not broken. It’s very good, but Grass is a terrible offensive typing which means there are so many options for hardwalling it. The reason so many popular offensive mons resist Grass is not because of Rillaboom, it‘s because Grass is the most commonly resisted type in the game.