Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #3539)

[Finchinator]

Pinkacross I have a lot of respect for your enthusiasm and how thorough you are. I do not entirely agree with how you frame the argument and can say with near certainty that a Rillaboom suspect is not the next thing on the radar as our next step is essentially decided (spoiler alert, kinda). However, when appropriate, I will bring it up to the council and I will encourage more discussion of this and other metagame topics here.

Personally, I think Rillaboom’s impact on the tier is not a negative one and limiting a few more niche playstyles just adds to the already developed list of reasons why they’re niche. This alone doesn’t make Rillaboom broken and there are plenty of answers to it that exist in the metagame.

But things can (and will) change, it’s always healthy to do our due diligence.

 

[Melanie goes boating]

Simply put, the problem is that Rillaboom has overcentralized and over standardized offensive building, and made it almost impossible to create successful teams that don't use the standard HO grass resists. Why does this make Rillaboom a problem and not Kartana? Choice Banded Rillaboom Grassy Glide is a priority move, and it is FAR stronger than Scarf Kartana leaf blade. If a Dragapult sets up a Dragon Dance, Scarf Kartana is no longer a threat. If a Cloyster sets up a Shell Smash, Scarf Kartana is no longer a threat. Rillaboom, however, is vastly different. You can't compare a Scarf pokemon with base 109 speed to a priority move, especially when the priority move is almost 1.5x as strong as the scarfer's main stab. If your point is valid, then it would be logical that other pokemon ALSO force playstyles to run lots of resists. So, I would ask, name me a single other pokemon that forces as much preparation as Rillaboom does with HO. Just a single one. Feel free to look, but I already have-- and nothing comes close.

It's not about comparing which mon has a longer wiener. I get you are mad that you can't run shitty mons in HO with Rillaboom around and that it hurts your teambuilder pride, but then again, what is the problem if standard offensive builds have to run grass resists but even with that they still win games consistently overall? Not every mon has to be useable and viable in OU, there is lower tiers for that. If you are such an experienced teambuilder you should know how Rillaboom is also beneficial for the tier and teambuilding since it keeps a large amount of opposing threats from getting stupid and somewhat holds rain back a bit, even though, a rain team topped the ladder recently! Wait, shouldn't that be impossible if Rillaboom is such a problem and restrictive in teambuilding? Also let's remember how Rillaboom is a crucial wallbreaker to keep bulkier builds in check alongside many other good offensive mons, which is pretty nice and healthy for the metagame.

Powerful grass mons like Rilla and Kart have to be accounted for, powerful rain mons like Urshifu -even outside of rain- have to be accounted for with good water resists and/or good options to outoffense them, Heatran! Good lord Heatran also requires teams to be very prepared vs it. And are you telling me you don't need to prepare for Volcarona by having a Heatran or a damn sturdy fire resist to not get 6-0d after it sets up a dance? A good team has to take a lot of threats into account and Rillaboom is just one more of them, even if it is indeed very powerful, which I DO NOT DENY.

If you want a mon to be gone just so you can run wacker HOs freely while you mess up other parts of the tier, good for you. I find it selfish and short-sighted, tho. But you are entitled to your opinion, now let's just see what other people and maybe the council think. Even tho i think Finch and many other users already made some good points about this thing.

Cheers!

 

[Pinkacross]

Pinkacross I have a lot of respect for your enthusiasm and how thorough you are. I do not entirely agree with how you frame the argument and can say with near certainty that a Rillaboom suspect is not the next thing on the radar as our next step is essentially decided (spoiler alert, kinda). However, when appropriate, I will bring it up to the council and I will encourage more discussion of this and other metagame topics here.

Personally, I think Rillaboom’s impact on the tier is not a negative one and limiting a few more niche playstyles just adds to the already developed list of reasons why they’re niche. This alone doesn’t make Rillaboom broken and there are plenty of answers to it that exist in the metagame.

But things can (and will) change, it’s always healthy to do our due diligence.

While I respectfully disagree with your evaluation of how healthy or lack thereof Rillaboom is, I respect that you are willing to hear opposing views and encourage metagame discussion independent of your personal views. I hope I will be able to change enough people's mind that one day, a Rillaboom suspect will be seriously considered. As you know, that day is not today, but perhaps someday. Thanks for doing a great job moderating! :)

 

[pkmnthebest]

I want run gourgeist in OU, please ban dragapult.

Seriously.. I don't get these ban arguments against rillaboom, indeed it's such an healthy mon for the tier (other mons are far more broken), HO is much better with it and he keeps in check a lot of setup mons.
Heavy duty boots, rillaboom and future sight are positive additions for the tier, the hazards meta is not dominating anymore.

 

[pulsar512b]

I'd like to note that I'm glad that the discussion about Rillaboom seems to be well conducted and handled by Pinkacross and Finchinator

Anyway, to the point: Urshifu-RS

This pokemon has markedly risen in usage, without much notice. Kyurem, Lele, Scizor, etc have all been rising threats as of late, and have been discussed at length here, but Urshifu-RS seems to have been missed. It is #13 in the usage stats of March, which (for comparison) is between Lele and Zapdos, and a few spots ahead of Tornadus-T.

In this post, I will try to explain this metagame shift to the best of my ability. Then, I will explain how you might use this pokemon, and finally I'll give my favorite team to use it on at the moment (which brought me to top 500 personally, despite many fairly obvious flaws).

WHY?
First, let's see what has changed in the metagame. The removal of Cinderace didn't really impact Urshifu-RS, but the removal of Magearna was a mild improvement for it (one less pokemon that kinda beat it). However, unlike many other pokemon such as Slowking, Scizor, or Kyurem, this is not sufficient to explain Urshifu-RS's rise. For that, we have to look more closely at the effect that those bans had on the overall metagame. They meant that less pokemon were running rocky helmet (Yay!), Slowbro lost popularity (Yay!), and that Slowking rose to prominence as a great bulky water esp for offensive teams. If you look at this, and then look at Urshifu-RS, it appreciated all 3 of these changes. Slowking is far more breakable than slowbro, nearly being 2hko'd by both of Urshifu-RS's stabs (btw- that still doesn't make sense to my brain, why is this doing that much). In contrast, Slowbro (esp with rocky helmet) was as good a counter to Urshifu-RS as you could ask for (although it takes about 40% from U-Turn). Rocky Helmet being used less helps it's longevity substantially. Other bulky waters are not really a problem for it either- Fini for instance can only come in a few times before being chipped to the point of uselessness. Toxapex is the hardest to deal with, but with Future Sight support it's still quite easy.
As for other meta changes, Urshifu-RS usually didn't mind them that much- for instance Kyurem and Lele's increase in popularity is whatever, fine. Scizor becoming more popular was if anything a positive change, as that pokemon can never really take hits from it.

HOW?
Urshifu-RS very much appreciates Future Sight and Spikes support. I would even go so far to say that Future Sight is almost required for it to be successful, as otherwise Pex is a large problem. Teleport support with the Future Sight support is very useful, and as such Slowbro and Slowking are the best partners there. One of my favorite cores featuring it is Skarmory+Slowking+Urshifu-RS, which provides both spikes and Future Sight support for it. Skarmory appreciates the two water types to help against fire types, while Slowking and Urshifu appreciate Skarmory dealing with the grasses that annoy them. Note that if you go down this path you will want a solid way of dealing with various electric types.

EXAMPLE?
(importable linked)
Note that this team struggles against dragapult and electric types. It also has no hazard removal, but I think that's fine considering how little the team cares about hazards and that I have spikes. If wished, you can replace Zeraora with scarf Lando.


Hopefully this helps yall understand why Urshifu-RS is becoming more popular as of late, and helps you build your own teams featuring it. Have a good day!

 

[Pinkacross]

It's not about comparing which mon has a longer wiener. I get you are mad that you can't run shitty mons in HO with Rillaboom around and that it hurts your teambuilder pride, but then again, what is the problem if standard offensive builds have to run grass resists but even with that they still win games consistently overall? Not every mon has to be useable and viable in OU, there is lower tiers for that. If you are such an experienced teambuilder you should know how Rillaboom is also beneficial for the tier and teambuilding since it keeps a large amount of opposing threats from getting stupid and somewhat holds rain back a bit, even though, a rain team topped the ladder recently! Wait, shouldn't that be impossible if Rillaboom is such a problem and restrictive in teambuilding? Also let's remember how Rillaboom is a crucial wallbreaker to keep bulkier builds in check alongside many other good offensive mons, which is pretty nice and healthy for the metagame.

Powerful grass mons like Rilla and Kart have to be accounted for, powerful rain mons like Urshifu -even outside of rain- have to be accounted for with good water resists and/or good options to outoffense them, Heatran! Good lord Heatran also requires teams to be very prepared vs it. And are you telling me you don't need to prepare for Volcarona by having a Heatran or a damn sturdy fire resist to not get 6-0d after it sets up a dance? A good team has to take a lot of threats into account and Rillaboom is just one more of them, even if it is indeed very powerful, which I DO NOT DENY.

If you want a mon to be gone just so you can run wacker HOs freely while you mess up other parts of the tier, good for you. I find it selfish and short-sighted, tho. But you are entitled to your opinion, now let's just see what other people and maybe the council think. Even tho i think Finch and many other users already made some good points about this thing.

Cheers!

- "It's not about comparing which mon has a longer wiener."
- "I get you are mad that you can't run shitty mons in HO with Rillaboom around and that it hurts your teambuilder pride"
- "If you are such an experienced teambuilder you should know how Rillaboom is also beneficial for the tier and teambuilding since it keeps a large amount of opposing threats from getting stupid and somewhat holds rain back a bit, even though, a rain team topped the ladder recently"
- "If you want a mon to be gone just so you can run wacker HOs freely while you mess up other parts of the tier, good for you. I find it selfish and short-sighted, tho."

This seems to be less a metagame discussion and more a personal attack. My only intention is to create a more diverse and enjoyable metagame for everyone. I spend many hours putting out well made RMTs built around creative pokemon so that newer players and players who dislike standard meta picks can have fun while playing high level viable teams. You question my experience, which is easily disproved by looking at my RMT posts. You are using vulgar language in anger merely because we disagree. You claim that I'm angry I can't run "shitty mons" despite many of these said pokemon being viable pre-glide. You then called me selfish and short-sighted, despite the fact that I have spent months formulating this my opinions on Rillaboom, hearing counterarguments, speaking with those who disagree with me, and even formulating my own counterarguments. It is only with the utmost information, consideration, and metagame analysis that I posted my thoughts-- I find it unlikely you did the same. I don't fault you for this, as preparing for months is not a requirement to post here, but I do ask that you not question my personal motivations nor my consideration of the impacts of a Rillaboom ban.

I have already previously addressed the few actual content remarks you made, you may reread my previous statements if you are interested to see the rebuttals I have made to the points you wrote above.

If you would like to let out anger at me and insult me, please do so in a private conversation, though I cannot guarantee I will entertain that conversation. Remember, we're both just posting on here because we enjoy playing PS and like Pokemon. We likely agree on loads of other metagame topics, and we can surely be civil as we discuss the few points upon which we do disagree. If you have any other questions, comments, or counterarguments regarding my Rillaboom ban opinions, I would be glad to answer so we better understand each other, and so that others reading the thread can understand both sides of the argument. I don't deny your points because they are bad, invalid, ignorant, or unintelligent-- they aren't. I've simply heard these arguments before, and already had pre-formulated counterarguments. Prior to this, I appreciated your opinions and remarks, and I'm sure I will appreciate more to come. :]

 

[Liquidocelot]

So you're telling me you won't run any grass resists in a sand team after Rilla gets banned?

Honestly you're comparing it the worst way possible , you can't just straight up say things like "Excadrill beats kart in sand"(actually it depends) , and I don't know how Kart loses to hippo. Further I'd like to add that it's not how you build teams or judge mons , Rillaboom gets walled by the grass type counter you run and also Rillaboom can't ohko Dracozolt (Don't know why you brought up Dracozolt for kart argument but not for Rilla argument).

By your logic even Barraskewda should be banned because that also beats half of a sand team with it's priority aqua jet.

The difference is with boom you have to run very specific grass resists or else you insta lose on sand. Ya basically have to run Corv+Tang or Corv+Wole or Corv+Skarm and multiple high Def grass resists. Limiting your team slots and making sand teams very formulaic and the samenexact team if ya even wanna have a chance of surviving.

Also I never said Down beats Kart, I said that it doesn't insta lose to scarf kart the way it automatically it and every mon but a select few lose to Boom.

And I very clearly do bring up Zolt in my post in which I say it gets 2hko'd after SR, it can't repeatedly switch into Superpower/High Horsepower and gets easily chipped down by its own LO recoil.

But much like the last post ya cherry pick and take things out of context without reading the actual post.

Oh and Barraskewda aqua jet? You mean the 40 base power attack move that can't ohko Down or T-Tar outside of rain? Compared to the 91 base power stab move Rillaboom has? Certainly an amazing comparison much like Boom to Kart?

 

[Melanie goes boating]

- "It's not about comparing which mon has a longer wiener."
- "I get you are mad that you can't run shitty mons in HO with Rillaboom around and that it hurts your teambuilder pride"
- "If you are such an experienced teambuilder you should know how Rillaboom is also beneficial for the tier and teambuilding since it keeps a large amount of opposing threats from getting stupid and somewhat holds rain back a bit, even though, a rain team topped the ladder recently"
- "If you want a mon to be gone just so you can run wacker HOs freely while you mess up other parts of the tier, good for you. I find it selfish and short-sighted, tho."

This seems to be less a metagame discussion and more a personal attack. My only intention is to create a more diverse and enjoyable metagame for everyone. I spend many hours putting out well made RMTs built around creative pokemon so that newer players and players who dislike standard meta picks can have fun while playing high level viable teams. You question my experience, which is easily disproved by looking at my RMT posts. You are using vulgar language in anger merely because we disagree. You claim that I'm angry I can't run "shitty mons" despite many of these said pokemon being viable pre-glide. You then called me selfish and short-sighted, despite the fact that I have spent months formulating this my opinions on Rillaboom, hearing counterarguments, speaking with those who disagree with me, and even formulating my own counterarguments. It is only with the utmost information, consideration, and metagame analysis that I posted my thoughts-- I find it unlikely you did the same. I don't fault you for this, as preparing for months is not a requirement to post here, but I do ask that you not question my personal motivations nor my consideration of the impacts of a Rillaboom ban.

I have already previously addressed the few actual content remarks you made, you may reread my previous statements if you are interested to see the rebuttals I have made to the points you wrote above.

If you would like to let out anger at me and insult me, please do so in a private conversation, though I cannot guarantee I will entertain that conversation. Remember, we're both just posting on here because we enjoy playing PS and like Pokemon. We likely agree on loads of other metagame topics, and we can surely be civil as we discuss the few points upon which we do disagree. If you have any other questions, comments, or counterarguments regarding my Rillaboom ban opinions, I would be glad to answer so we better understand each other, and so that others reading the thread can understand both sides of the argument. I don't deny your points because they are bad, invalid, ignorant, or unintelligent-- they aren't. I've simply heard these arguments before, and already had pre-formulated counterarguments. Prior to this, I appreciated your opinions and remarks, and I'm sure I will appreciate more to come. :]

Oh, come on, don't go into moral highground territories now. I am sorry if a few harsh words might feel like a personal attack to you, it was not my intention. So you don't need to do that, don't worry. I would say the same thing to anyone else, believe me. And i would also be open to discuss other pokémon stuff with you, here or in a private conversation. My words may have been too... Vulgar was it? But i feel like this discussion is a bit missleading, wanting to make Rillaboom seem like a much bigger problem than it is with the suggestion of a whole suspect test on it. And it kind of tickled me the wrong way, because it seems like you actually plan on pushing it no matter what and it feels kind of wrong. It for example could influentiate newer players into thinking something that may have been a bit exaggerated.

There are quite a bunch of mons that require prepping for in any team, and that doesn't make them unhealthy. Metagames develop with changes, in OU, mons that were viable adapt or perish, just look at poor Rotom-Heat for an example of a mon who eventually perished. If some mons aren't as good as they were before, it shouldn't be plaster fixed with an unneeded ban, it's something that has happened a lot of times and there is nothing wrong with a mon falling out of grace after being some time in the spotlight. Removing Rillaboom has larger consequences than just giving HO more creativity, that mon really helps with breaking defensive cores, allowing counterplay with it's defensive checks too, and it really helps with preventing some offensive threats to just win on the spot, and i don't think it's unfair that a mon with powerful priority adds some depth to games, making it a requirement to manage one's team better and to understand how positioning works. That is given a "good matchup" that allows you to do so. I think the matchup thing has been a rising issue as the generations went on, and it kind of makes the game feel weird sometimes, but that is a discussion for another day.

Thinking about it, is it bad that Rilla doesn't let sand teams be overly powerful? Sand teams are quite fine currently anyways. Is it bad that Rillaboom prevents the dark times of Cloyster HO haunting the ladder to come back? Is it bad that Rillaboom -and many other mons of course- made the metagame develop even if some mons had to suffer because they eventually couldn't keep up with progress? I think that if Rillaboom -or any other mon of course, for the record.- isn't an unhealthy presence for an actually large portion of the metagame, it really doesn't need to be claimed overly powerful and suspect test deserving. AT LEAST FOR NOW, maybe in the future the issue spreads and you are proven very right! I hope i made my case clear, english not being my mother language might prevent me from making my points more clear.

Also i didn't call YOU selfish and short-sighted, just to clarify. Only the movement that might prevent a further stable meta development if it gets out of control. Not all shake-ups are positive.

Anyways, have a nice day sir, cheers! I might have been a bit too harsh... Sorry. I should go back to just be as nice as possible even if i don't feel like it. This forum really needs to get into more positive vibes and i would like to help in that.

 

[pulsar512b]

Anyways, have a nice day sir, cheers! I might have been a bit too harsh... Sorry. I should go back to just be as nice as possible even if i don't feel like it. This forum really needs to get into more positive vibes and i would like to help in that.

Honestly, I feel like this is the main problem here. It feels like this thread right now is a cesspit of circlejerking about "hurr durr this is [not] broken", regardless of whether it's reasonable (Zamazenta for instance) or absurd (Shadow Tag). Actual meta discussion seems rare, which is a sad state. Probably the best way to fix this is to have everyone try to fix it individually.

Anyway, I've been watching some ladder games for the last like 50 minutes because I'm bored in office hours, and I've noticed quite a few teams are super weak to offensive Zapdos. I might try that out sometime- what sort of thoughts do yall have?

 

[Pinkacross]

Closing Statement on my Rillaban Opinions (For Now)

Thanks to all who read my posts with an open mind and engaged in discussion! I still believe Rillaboom deserves a ban, and I hope that my posts helped some players realize the harm that Rillaboom has done to the metagame. I believe I have covered all aspects of the pro-rilla-ban argument, though if anyone else has anything further to add they are free to do so. If I were to respond to posts further, I find I would be needlessly clogging the metagame discussion with points I have already repeated multiple times. If you would like to know my thoughts, you will likely find them in previous posts, but you are also welcome to contact me in a conversation with specific questions.

I recently released a #1 peaking Arctozolt Hail team in RMT, please check it out and let me know what you think of it! Thanks for all the discussion, specifically shoutouts to Finchinator and ausma for encouraging this discussion. When support for the Rillaboom ban grows... I'll be back. ;)

Pinkacross out.

 

[MilkyWay]

I was one of the people that complained about Rillaboom in the player's survey before this discussion even started and the point I made there was kinda similar to what Pinkacross is trying to say here. When talking about potential suspects, I feel like people too often try and frame the discussion along the lines of "Suspect X can get past all of its checks/counters" or "Suspect X has no counters" etc. However, I don't think the problem with Rillaboom is that it can beat all of its checks + counters/doesn't have enough checks/counters; Rillaboom isn't broken in the traditional sense or overpowered.

To be blunt, banded Grassy Glide is just dumb and repressive. With the terrain boost, it's way too powerful for a priority move with zero drawbacks and the major problem with this is it seriously hinders the viability of any offensive mon that doesn't resist grass. In a sense, Rillaboom is like Gen 6 Aegislash in an offensive manner: Aegislash over-centralized the meta in part by making mons that it walled significantly less viable; Rillaboom makes offensive mons that don't resist grass significantly less viable. The fact that it also has other annoying options such as Knock Off, U-turn, and a strong terrain-boosted Wood Hammer, as well as the fact that it is deceptively hard to kill due to terrain healing and the terrain defense boost, makes it less one-dimensional and easier to spam on teams, thus centralizing the meta even more.

To sum it up, while Rillaboom isn't broken, I hate the effect it has on centralizing the meta around banded Grassy Glide. I think this is unhealthy and while I can't say for sure I'd vote to ban it, I wouldn't be opposed to a suspect test at some point in the future.

 

[Finchinator]

In a sense, Rillaboom is like Gen 6 Aegislash in an offensive manner: Aegislash over-centralized the meta in part by making mons that it walled significantly less viable; Rillaboom makes offensive mons that don't resist grass significantly less viable.

I’m sorry, but this comparison is not accurate at all. Aegislash derailed the entire game, forcing do-or-die 50/50s and being simultaneously overpowered and too bulky to reliably break for offensive options lacking super effective moves. It stunted the profession of a plethora of pokemon and likely entire archetypes. It was banned with huge waves of support.

Rillaboom has a small group of ban supporters and while it absolutely does well against specific HOs and Rain, they’re already fringe as is, they’re still viable, and there are ways to mitigate this vulnerability. It’s far less punishing and impactful. This comparison to Aegislash absolutely cannot be applied to Rillaboom.

 

[Negative Charge]

I am strongly opposed to suspecting, let alone banning Rillaboom. There are countless checks and counters. Its matchup against certain playstyles seems like an extremely normal thing. There's a natural viability ebb and flow of certain playstyles over the years due to meta compositions. If you're losing consistently to Rillaboom, you need to go back to the builder. I think I would understand the anti-Rilla side more if y'all just said "I'm bored with the current meta".

 

[gye5]

I’m sorry, but this comparison is not accurate at all. Aegislash derailed the entire game, forcing do-or-die 50/50s and being simultaneously overpowered and too bulky to reliably break for offensive options lacking super effective moves. It stunted the profession of a plethora of pokemon and likely entire archetypes. It was banned with huge waves of support.

Rillaboom has a small group of ban supporters and while it absolutely does well against specific HOs and Rain, they’re already fringe as is, they’re still viable, and there are ways to mitigate this vulnerability. It’s far less punishing and impactful. This comparison to Aegislash absolutely cannot be applied to Rillaboom.

It is sad to see such a polirized community, this prove that having a group of taking decision is usually better, because without it, it would be a mess

 

[Bruh Moment (Fruedasi)]

I am strongly opposed to suspecting, let alone banning Rillaboom. There are countless checks and counters. Its matchup against certain playstyles seems like an extremely normal thing. There's a natural viability ebb and flow of certain playstyles over the years due to meta compositions. If you're losing consistently to Rillaboom, you need to go back to the builder. I think I would understand the anti-Rilla side more if y'all just said "I'm bored with the current meta".

Completely agree with this. And with the upcoming retest of Zamazenta-C, it will be another check to Rilla that also deals with the playstyle that Rilla is frequentely on, Offense. While Offense can adapt it's undeniable that Zama checks it very well, Rillaboom is not ban-worthy and also pure grass offensive sucks, however the move is indeed powerful.

 

[Finchinator]

It is sad to see such a polirized community, this prove that having a group of taking decision is usually better, because without it, it would be a mess

Posts like this have no purpose here.

We are not polarized so much as we are in a respectful disagreement. Both sides get to share their passionate opinion on the metagame. Discussions like these are healthy and posts belittling that prospect like yours are the problem. I would greatly appreciate no more low-effort one liners or commentary on the nature of discussion that lack actual substance.

 

[SwaggySammy44]

Rillaboom's fine. I think it is the best offensive pokemon in the tier, but it has enough checks that it is nowhere near banworthy. Corviknight, Ferrothorn, zapdos, dragonite, tangrowth and heatran (unless rilla runs horsepower) all hardwall rillaboom with their most common sets. When people say they need a grass resist, they're forgetting that alot of things resist grass. Adding to that, although grassy glide is an incredible attack, you gotta remember that it is reliant on grassy terrain for its priority. Tapu lele can take away rilla's priority and outspeed and kill it. Its not "restrictive team building" just because you need to run 1 of at least 5 good, common mons to check an offensive threat. (also worth noting that none of the checks I listed are being run solely to check rillaboom, they all check a variety of things, and are all ranked at least B+ in the viability rankings.)

 

[vNatFly]

Rillaboom's fine. I think it is the best offensive pokemon in the tier, but it has enough checks that it is nowhere near banworthy. Corviknight, Ferrothorn, zapdos, dragonite, tangrowth and heatran (unless rilla runs horsepower) all hardwall rillaboom with their most common sets. When people say they need a grass resist, they're forgetting that alot of things resist grass. Adding to that, although grassy glide is an incredible attack, you gotta remember that it is reliant on grassy terrain for its priority. Tapu lele can take away rilla's priority and outspeed and kill it. Its not "restrictive team building" just because you need to run 1 of at least 5 good, common mons to check an offensive threat. (also worth noting that none of the checks I listed are being run solely to check rillaboom, they all check a variety of things, and are all ranked at least B+ in the viability rankings.)

Actually, SD Drain Punch can beat Ferrothorn and Heatran. Also, imo Zapdos is kind of a blanket counter because once it gets knocked, it can't come in on Rillaboom that reliably anymore. I'm not saying that Rillaboom is banworthy though, I still disagree with that claim.

 

[OctoMystic]

Rillaboom's fine. I think it is the best offensive pokemon in the tier, but it has enough checks that it is nowhere near banworthy. Corviknight, Ferrothorn, zapdos, dragonite, tangrowth and heatran (unless rilla runs horsepower) all hardwall rillaboom with their most common sets. When people say they need a grass resist, they're forgetting that alot of things resist grass. Adding to that, although grassy glide is an incredible attack, you gotta remember that it is reliant on grassy terrain for its priority. Tapu lele can take away rilla's priority and outspeed and kill it. Its not "restrictive team building" just because you need to run 1 of at least 5 good, common mons to check an offensive threat. (also worth noting that none of the checks I listed are being run solely to check rillaboom, they all check a variety of things, and are all ranked at least B+ in the viability rankings.)

I agree, Rillaboom doesn’t force mons onto teams, it has a bunch of common checks and is good against certain things. Banded glide on paper is amazing which it is don’t get me wrong, but relying on priority that’s only on grassy terrain is a bit limiting considering how common tapus and things like zap corv etc are. Band rilla has all sort of counterplay like said above. My point is, rilla doesnt restrict building, it has common checks and checks common things, which seems healthy for the metagame imo. Sd rilla is also a thing but it’s only really seen on Hyper Offensive teams, although this has much less counterplay and mons such as ferro and corv can lose to this, swords dance uses a turn of grassy terrain and it’s much easier to send in a check when you know it won’t do any damage to you on the turn, good example being Lele which doesn’t like to swap into a banded grassy glide, overall rillaboom is a top tier pokemon, but far from suspect worthy imo.

 

[MilkyWay]

I’m sorry, but this comparison is not accurate at all. Aegislash derailed the entire game, forcing do-or-die 50/50s and being simultaneously overpowered and too bulky to reliably break for offensive options lacking super effective moves. It stunted the profession of a plethora of pokemon and likely entire archetypes. It was banned with huge waves of support.

Rillaboom has a small group of ban supporters and while it absolutely does well against specific HOs and Rain, they’re already fringe as is, they’re still viable, and there are ways to mitigate this vulnerability. It’s far less punishing and impactful. This comparison to Aegislash absolutely cannot be applied to Rillaboom.

You're right that the Aegislash analogy was a bit extreme since they are very different pokemon and gen 6 Aegislash was significantly more banworthy than Rillaboom imo, but the overall point I was trying to make from that analogy was that there is a precedent for banning mons that overcentralize the tier and are thus unhealthy.

 

[AM]

Gen 6 Aegislash was way more broken in comparison there was like 3+ fantastic sets and it removed an entire type, Psychic, from OU at the time, not slowing down a playstyle, a whole type lol. It's a bad comparison, it's usually pretty bad to compare gens like that anyways due to mechanics and whats viable in those formats.

 

[100 Hoes Kaido]

Why the hell are you guys comparing Rillaboom to Aegislash when gen 6 had Talonflame? Aegi was like the holy trinity of coin flips alongside Mawile
and Bisharp pre-oras, a much more apt comparision, would be Talonflame, who had priority BB regardless of health and access to U-turn, there were some that wanted to ban it because it gave trouble to HO, what would be considered a gimmick playstyle without power creep cough cough, but the arguments for banning were always whimsical at best, exactly like now with Rilla.

 

[Monky25]

In general I feel many players like to throw out terms like "overcentralizing" or "restricting teambuilding" when in actuality there are just Pokemon you have to prepare for. Every tier has top tier Pokemon that you need to prepare for: OU has stuff like Dragapult, Torn-T, Rillaboom, Garchomp, and Toxapex for example while the tier I main, UU, also has stuff you need to prepare for like Kommo-o, Scizor, Salamence, and Keldeo. Just because you have to put an answer on the team doesn't make it restricting. By that reasoning all top tier Pokemon should be banned since if you don't have an answer you are on the backfoot. When it comes to evaluating a pokemon that is "overcentralizing" you have to look at 2 things. The first thing is that it has a limited pool to checks that can easily be bypassed. For example, urshifu fits this category because checks like clefable still died to coverage, so not only did it restrict building to a small amount but the answers could be bypassed from there as well. The other thing is if the answers on a team are pretty much useless outside of dealing with that one Pokemon, as we saw with spectrier where trash mons and sets had to be used to stop it. Frankly, I don't believe Rillaboom falls into either category, in fact I don't think any OU pokemon falls into those categories. It has plenty of checks and counters and most of them beat it easily and don't lose the same way stuff lost to urshifu. In addition, all the Pokemon that help check/counter it like corviknight, skarmory, zapdos, ferrothorm, volcarona, and dragonite for examples are all still solid and viable Pokemon in the meta. All in all, if you want to say something restricts teambuilding, think about it because does it really? Often times people confuse the idea of having answers to the best Pokemon in the meta with the idea of restrictive building and I encourage that such broad terms should not be thrown out so easily.

On an unrelated note, when can we expect a zamazenta-C test. I get the survey said only 51% support it directly but you also have to take into account those who voted indifferent or don't want to see it while also thinking it should be retested but stay banned. I know myself and probably many other players put a 2 or a 3 because we thought it should stay banned but still want a test (btw after time on the ladder I'm more in the unsure camp). I just think now is a great time to do it considering there aren't any major issues that need attention

 

[Jokler]

Rillaboom is a very unique mon. It is not broken in the traditional sense because it has very reliable answers both offensively and defensively which people before me and even I have listed off extensively in a previous post. So it is generally accepted to be able to be dealt with within reason. It is not overbearing. It is also widely considered a healthy part of tier enabling a lot of balances and HO builds being a great progress maker and revenge killer against set up mons.

However, people are finding it's extremely powerful priority a restrictive presence in the tier. This is where the problem on judging Rillaboom's place in the meta game starts. On one hand the only argument for it's ban steams from priority but on the other hand it is truly unlike something we have ever seen, it is about 50% stronger than even banded Scizor which is the closest comparison we can make now or pre nerf Gale Wings Banded Brave Bird which is still weaker than Banded Glide. It's defies the norms that have been already been set.

That being said, it still doesn't really invalidate any play style. Rain and Sand are still OU and have high level usage. Offense is still thriving. They indeed have adapted to Rillaboom's presence and have shifted their structures accordingly and are able to even overcome Rillaboom matchups without being worse off against non-Rillaboom matchups. IMO, it is completely reasonable to be expected to account for tier's biggest threats especially if it isn't costing your team effectiveness against other matchups.

Another thing to note is that it is not like these teams stave off Rilla by only running a static build and can't have diversity either. It does shorten the pool to choose from, true, but there is still a pretty big one nonetheless. I have already gone over a lot offensive mons still viable with Rilla around and different rain structures in the post I mentioned above.

I also think it is unreasonable to expect all lower tier mons to work in OU. Sure I get the point that solely Rilla being gone will improve these mons greatly but that simply can't be the reason to ban a mon from OU when it has reliable checks, isn't unhealthy nor invalidates entire playstyles that aren't already niche. In fact this is a big reason why mons are OU, they just generally outclass lower tier mons and have a great meta matchup.
We can that extend to honestly a whole lot in OU. Regen alone invalidates innumerable offensive mons from lower tiers. Futureport made defensive mons and entire teams more strained.
We can even talk about more niche things such as Koko and Fini making Rest obsolete. Pex preventing slow stat raising snow ball strategies with haze.
The first 2 are considered borderline broken and there is some support to ban them as well. The latter 2 are something most of you probably didn't even consider running in OU in the first place. My point is that we can keep making lower tier mons better in OU if ban their counters. Rilla isn't inherently broken by definition. The reason it is being talked about is because of Grassy Glide being OP but I don't think banning mons to just make other mons better makes sense if the said mon isn't even broken. Finchinator previously talked about how Aegislash had a chokehold on Gen 6 meta game both offensively and defensively and was banned subsequently and that Rilla is not comparable to it at all.

In conclusion, I will say that it though it is kinda annoying, it is honestly a part of the meta game now. It is a part of what gives gen 8 OU it's identity. There are other new additions like HDBs, teleport, future sight etc. which give gen 8 a unique identity and differentiate it from earlier meta games. I think we should keep as much of it intact if it isn't broken but I also respect the community opinion and can accept the suspect and subsequent major vote.

Thank you for reading and have a good day.

 

[BolTingBlazie]

I hope that if Zamazenta-C is deemed not broken in ou, we can retest Cinderace after. Cinderace in a Zamazenta metagame and the way it shapes around it should make Cinderace way more manageable, as other than scald, there was no clear-cut answer to it before. Zamazenta is able to pressure the bulk up sets that truly pushed it over the edge, and while Cinderace would be really good, it may not be banworthy if Zamazenta-c successfully drops.