Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #3539)

IPF

sundown
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
Look man I love using weird stuff as much as the next person but if you have zero replays demonstrating how Manectric functions or it doing anything it becomes really hard to get on board with the idea. You mentioned getting to 1700+ but if I'm honest most competent players could do that using the Corv/Kyu/Pex/Tran/Lando core so it's just difficult to even consider it semi viable with no proof of it. So yeah, some replays of it putting in work would be nice, otherwise it just looks like a huge wall of text and calcs with a bunch of theorymonning and no end product.
 

Fusien

"What do you think, Zach?"
is a Tiering Contributor
OUPL Champion
First off I just want to say great writing man BlackMalachite, there is super high effort put into the post and it was a blast to read. However, I do have some criticism about the dog. Quick Disclaimer: this post is purely about mane in a competitive sense. If you want to use Manectric, by all means feel free to. This is just my problems with the mon in my opinion. :Manectric: Ironically I actually used this mon 2 days ago with some friends, not the scarf set but more so a trick ring target rising voltage set paired with :tapu koko:. Unfortunately, there were some major problems with Manectric. The most notable I feel is that of the ground problem; due to the lack of hp ice most grounds severely wall it, or at least heavily restrict it. If we take the very common Spdef Lando for example, the calc of overheat vs it is:

252 SpA Manectric Overheat vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Landorus-Therian: 102-120 (26.7 - 31.4%) -- 24% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

As you can see, rather frustrating damage. The problem is amplified even more so with the also common Hippowdon and Garchomp, with the former having reliable recovery and the latter having an overheat resistance, respectively. Even with trick ring target to improve its match up , these mons where incredibly frustrating. The games with dual ground where downright impossible to maneuver with mane as well. While I haven’t used the trick set admittedly, I do not see it faring any better vs grounds than ring target (bc of the latter allowing electric attacks to hit grounds once tricked to them), and so I imagine the ground issue to be far more problematic with scarf than it already is with ring target.

Now with the biggest problem in my opinion discussed, I will go on to my other grievances I have to the hound. Let’s start with damage: this mon is incredibly weak, so weak it makes Zeraora look strong. In our scenario, we tried to make it so that mane could actually do damage, by providing it with terrain for its rising voltages. However, the results where still very disappointing.

252 SpA Manectric Rising Voltage (140 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Ninetales-Alola in Electric Terrain: 256-303 (89.1 - 105.5%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

As for the scarf t bolt set,
252 SpA Manectric Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Ninetales-Alola: 127-150 (44.2 - 52.2%) -- 17.6% chance to 2HKO

My point with these calcs is that mane does very little to even somewhat frail mons, let alone how much it would do to more bulkier opponents. Oh and the somewhat sad

252 SpA Manectric Rising Voltage (70 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Landorus-Therian in Electric Terrain: 216-254 (56.5 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed
(Once you trick ring target)

This isn’t as important since you can easily volt switch out, but don’t fall for the facade of a 140 bp voltage to ohko, as unfortunately Lando is flying and as such avoids the doubling of the move.

Manectric is also very weak against many neutral targets, and often has trouble doing damage to things thanks to its poor offenses.

In many of your calcs, you post the damage with the lighting rod boost, however there are some major problems with that, which segues into my next area of concern: Manectric’s bulk.

To say Manectric is frail would be an understatement, it is downright paper (though ironically kartana, a paper pokemon, at least has one solid defensive stat). As such, Manectric can almost never switch into moves without prediction, for it always risks the chances of a ohko/2hko. The same risk applies for the electrics in the tier, which I will analyze their matchups vs Manectric.

Let’s start with the two most important electrics in the Overused tier, :tapu koko: Tapu Koko and :zeraora: Zeraora. While in theory Manectric can come in on their electric moves to get a boost, in reality it’s far more nuanced. Both Koko and Zeraora always carry non electric moves, which they often spam. (Koko with U-Turn, Zeraora with Knock Off). Switching Manectric into either of these is very frustrating, as they both chip it noticeably, calcs posted below.

252 Atk Zeraora Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manectric: 144-170 (51.2 - 60.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Zeraora Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manectric: 178-210 (63.3 - 74.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0- Atk Tapu Koko U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manectric: 78-92 (27.7 - 32.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
(This one in particular is super sad, 30% from an uninvested timid Koko U-Turn, ouch)

252 SpA Tapu Koko Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Manectric: 159-187 (56.5 - 66.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

As you can see, Manectric has immense difficulty switching into any of these electric Pokemon for fear of their other moves. But let’s say you do manage to get it in on an electric move and get the boost, what then?

+1 252 SpA Manectric Overheat vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Koko: 232-273 (82.5 - 97.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Ok I admit this one is kind of nice damage

+1 252 SpA Manectric Overheat vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zeraora: 220-259 (69.4 - 81.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
This one a bit less so.

In your vs Zera calc, you posted -1 defense for Zeraora due to close combat, however I have difficulty seeing this happen, as knock would likely be the move chosen more often.
(This is if you use your scarf set btw). However, let’s say the opponent has a Zeraora out and isn’t willing to risk what your +1 mane could do since it lives a zera attack. They could just go their ground and hard wall you. There are other flaws to Manectric’s low defenses as well, most notably that it becomes a bad torn switch in, unlike it’s fellow friends koko and zera, which is one of the benefits of having an electric type. Finally, there’s one last major flaw against Manectric: other electric types existing.

Let’s once again look at the major offensive electric types in OU, :Zeraora: Zeraora and :tapu koko: Tapu Koko. These are both superb mons and fix almost all the flaws listed that Mane has. Therefore, on a serious team, one should almost always go either of these over the dog, unfortunately. Even if one really wants electric fire coverage, Zera gets blaze kick/fire punch if you are desperate, and the niche Rotom-Heat exists. I’d even argue that if someone wanted to build a team around an electric really weak to ground and structure the team to allow to bypass this annoyance, Regieleki would be a finer choice, trading overheat and trick for much better stats and use in OU. (Regieleki still bad imo, just saying in comparison to Manectric). Also important to note, most Koko, Zera, and Eleki don’t take hazard damage thanks to boots, allowing for better pivoting , while scarf/ ring target Manectric unfortunately does.

Anyways that’s just my view on Manectric competitively, feel free to disagree. I like the mon as an idea, but from my uses, I think of it far more as a meme mon and much less of a semi legitimate mon.
 
For the record in regards to the Manectric discussion-

:ss/rotom-wash:
Rotom-Wash @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe (feel free to be fancy with these if you want)
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Volt Switch
- Hydro Pump
- Trick
- Thunderbolt / Will-O-Wisp / Nasty Plot / Defog

Scarf Rotom-W is pretty niche, but it does what Manectric does 100% better. Like Manectric, it is an electric type scarfer and pivot with access to Trick to cripple switchins. However, it has superior defensive capability, utility, and access to STAB Hydro Pump that allow it to be a neat option for mindgames and pivoting. It’s not immune to Electric or as fast (though speed is only relevant in this comparison after Tricking Scarf away) but this is just way better. Manectric trash don’t use.
 
For the record in regards to the Manectric discussion-

:ss/rotom-wash:
Rotom-Wash @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe (feel free to be fancy with these if you want)
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Volt Switch
- Hydro Pump
- Trick
- Thunderbolt / Will-O-Wisp / Nasty Plot / Defog

Scarf Rotom-W is pretty niche, but it does what Manectric does 100% better. Like Manectric, it is an electric type scarfer and pivot with access to Trick to cripple switchins. However, it has superior defensive capability, utility, and access to STAB Hydro Pump that allow it to be a neat option for mindgames and pivoting. It’s not immune to Electric or as fast (though speed is only relevant in this comparison after Tricking Scarf away) but this is just way better. Manectric trash don’t use.
Note that even with Ice Fang Manectric isn't 2HKOing SpDef Lando, which is everywhere at the moment, and unless you're a god of prediction it's not durable enough to switch in repeatedly on any relevant Electric, much less anything else. Rotom-W isn't perfect by any means, but it commands way more respect in terms of both offensive and defensive utility.
 
Sorry to be harsh but Manectric is a discount Jolteon, which is not even viable in OU.

To make this a broader point, electric types without ground coverage or some sort of utility (Knock Off, Rapid Spin, etc) are completely useless in Gen 8 OU. I’d sooner use Lanturn than Manectric at least it gets STAB Scald…

Electric types more useful than Manectric:

Arctozolt
Zapdos
Tapu Koko
Magnezone
Zeraora
Thundurus-Therian
Toxtricity
Rotom-A
Dracozolt
Regeleki
Raichu-A
Heliolisk
 
I've been using Banded Dragonite the past few days and I've enjoyed decent success with it.

:ss/Dragonite:

Dragonite @ Choice Band
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dual Wingbeat
- Extreme Speed
- Earthquake
- Scale Shot​

To give a brief overview, Adamant Band hits 604 Attack. Its Dual Wingbeat is slightly stronger than Jolly Mega Medicham's Zen Headbutt, for reference. Inner Focus prevents Intimidate and is more useful than Multiscale since this set can't use HDB. I consider Dual Wingbeat and Extreme Speed mandatory; the former is self-explanatory and the latter is very useful for picking off Weavile, Zeraora, Torn-T, Garchomp, Volcarona, etc. +2 Priority is just beautiful honestly. I prefer to use EQ to smack Heatran, Tyranitar, and Magnezone and Scale Shot to nail Zapdos and potentially clean late-game.

Good partners include:

:ss/Magnezone:

The resistance remover. No more Ferrothorn, Corviknight, Skarmory, etc to soak up Dual Wingbeat and wear it down with Iron Barbs and/or Rocky Helmet. Also a good switch in to Toxapex and Clefable.

:ss/Weavile:

The item remover. Leftovers, HDB, Rocky Helmet, and especially Shed Shell are important to get rid of, and Weavile forces many of Dragonite's checks to lose them. It also serves as a Dragapult check and general speed control.

Replays to come.
 
Honestly, the last few posts(except for the dragonite one, obviously) have felt less like a need to discuss a set and more like an opportunity to pile on to a player. About half of them offer nothing of substance, only condescending comments, and the other half, while offering constructive criticisms is also liberally peppered with those same condescending comments. I do remember a few days/weeks ago someone talking about smogon community being very gatekeepy sometimes, and looking at these comments, I kinda understand them. While, again, some(about 50%) of the manectric comments are constructive(the other half is basically a non one liner one liner "hurr durr manectric bad"), they still seem to be mostly coming from a place of tearing someone down rather than actually discussing the mon in question, even though to be fair it might be a secondary concern.

Now, I am actually also interested in some other things about manectric: namely, from my head guesstimates it seems manectric could have a decent MU into hail, as it outspeeds zolt under hail and is capable of an OHKO with overheat, not to mention being immune to bolt beak being a great mindgame,especially combined with a friendly tran. Lando which is relatively commonly seen on such teams to defog and probably the main switch in to manectric becomes almost unusable in its primary defog role after being tricked a scarf as it has to choose whether to keep momentum or defog, while also being chipped a lot between no lefties, rocks and hail; and a lot of the mons on such teams like volcanion,alolatales and corvi really don't appreciate fire+electric coverage.
Another thing to ask is would it be possible to write up a bit on how manectric differentiates itself from rotom-heat, seeing as they share a coverage combination, as well as trick.
EDIT: oh and also maybe a writeup for modest vs timid, if there is anything in using modest scarf,since it still outspeeds zolt in hail, it might be a decent speed benchmark

Anyways, your very detailed and deeply tough out post is greatly appreciated BlackMalachite , and I hope to see more of them in the future :)
 
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Honestly, the last few posts(except for the dragonite one, obviously) have felt less like a need to discuss a set and more like an opportunity to pile on to a player. About half of them offer nothing of substance, only condescending comments, and the other half, while offering constructive criticisms is also liberally peppered with those same condescending comments. I do remember a few days/weeks ago someone talking about smogon community being very gatekeepy sometimes, and looking at these comments, I kinda understand them. While, again, some(about 50%) of the manectric comments are constructive(the other half is basically a non one liner one liner "hurr durr manectric bad"), they still seem to be mostly coming from a place of tearing someone down rather than actually discussing the mon in question, even though to be fair it might be a secondary concern.

Now, I am actually also interested in some other things about manectric: namely, from my head guesstimates it seems manectric could have a decent MU into hail, as it outspeeds zolt under hail and is capable of an OHKO with overheat, not to mention being immune to bolt beak being a great mindgame,especially combined with a friendly tran. Lando which is relatively commonly seen on such teams to defog and probably the main switch in to manectric becomes almost unusable in its primary defog role after being tricked a scarf as it has to choose whether to keep momentum or defog, while also being chipped a lot between no lefties, rocks and hail; and a lot of the mons on such teams like volcanion,alolatales and corvi really don't appreciate fire+electric coverage.
Another thing to ask is would it be possible to write up a bit on how manectric differentiates itself from rotom-heat, seeing as they share a coverage combination, as well as trick.
EDIT: oh and also maybe a writeup for modest vs timid, if there is anything in using modest scarf,since it still outspeeds zolt in hail, it might be a decent speed benchmark

Anyways, your very detailed and deeply tough out post is greatly appreciated BlackMalachite , and I hope to see more of them in the future :)
Thank you so much for this. I absolutely adore all of the people who made detailed responses to my Manectric post (even if those responses were negative or neutral), and I was actually able to tailor my Manectric teams, even more, thanks to input from Fusien adem and their really nice big replies in this thread (I actually found a new set out specifically because of some of the stuff Fusien listed that I'm going to start testing Manectric with as well). I also really appreciate the praise on this post from Walletinspector62 Nezloe along with all the people that complimented me as well as gave me useful advice on Discord, Showdown, and my Smogon forum profile about Manectric. Also, IPF noted your post regarding Manectric as well, I'll gather up some replays for examples next time to compliment my huge wall of text, thank you!

I didn't even think of the Hail matchup when I typed up how it handles Arctozolt, that's a really good point; partnering Manectric and Heatran together really is a nice combination, I mentioned that in my original Manectric post but I'm gonna add in something specifically for match-up related stuff, thanks man! Rotom-Heat is... an interesting but really cool choice, it's bulkier, immune to Earthquake, and also has STAB on its Overheat. However, Manectric has that crucial speed tier of 339 with timid that Rotom-H can't reach (as well as Rotom's Scarf being outsped far easier than Manectric's). In addition, Manectric has Lightningrod to boost its Special Attack as I mentioned, along with lacking Rotom-H's unfortunate weaknesses to Rock and Water moves can be rough (especially when dealing with Urshifu-RS, who Manectric also outspeeds but Rotom-H doesn't, meaning that while Manectric with and without scarf can outspeed and revenge kill a Choice Band locked Surging Strikes or Close Combat Urshifu-RS, Rotom-H can't unless it still has its Scarf attached. I haven't tested Modest Scarf Manectric because I've found that speed tier really crucial, but I could test some benchmarks and see if I could get away with Modest for the extra power. It looks like I have even more things to test with Manectric. Thank you all so much for considering discussion about Manectric.

I'd like to add one more thing. Please don't spam my profile with negative, non-productive remarks because you don't like my Manectric post. I'm just going to delete those spam messages and ignore the user who sends them.
 
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I haven't tested Modest Scarf Manectric because I've found that speed tier really crucial, but I could test some benchmarks and see if I could get away with Modest for the extra power. It looks like I have even more things to test with Manectric. Thank you all so much for considering discussion about Manectric.
Yh, it might seem like a small thing but would change a lot about how you play the mon, as modest would seem to get a lot of breakpoints timid might not, while not losing many speed breakpoints with scarf, but it would lose a ton of speed breakpoints after trick(like lele, shifu...). Modest and timid might actually have a totally different gameplan, where modest would like to keep its scarf more and just attack, while timid can give its scarf away more freely at the cost of being slightly weaker offensively and depending more on lightning rod to shore up its attack stat

some nicer calcs with modest:
252 SpA Manectric Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Ninetales-Alola: 127-150 (44.2 - 52.2%) -- 17.6% chance to 2HKO
goes to
252+ SpA Manectric Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Ninetales-Alola: 139-165 (48.4 - 57.4%) -- 92.6% chance to 2HKO

+1 252 SpA Manectric Overheat vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Koko: 232-273 (82.5 - 97.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
goes to
+1 252+ SpA Manectric Overheat vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tapu Koko: 253-298 (90 - 106%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Manectric Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Slowking: 170-204 (43.1 - 51.7%) -- 7.4% chance to 2HKO
goes to
252+ SpA Manectric Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Slowking: 188-224 (47.7 - 56.8%) -- 89.5% chance to 2HKO

252 SpA Manectric Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 144-170 (47.3 - 55.9%) -- 78.5% chance to 2HKO
goes to
252+ SpA Manectric Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 156-186 (51.3 - 61.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

and those are just from the comments i saw up, there might be more
EDIT: quick edit, it also turns overheat into a guaranteed KO on ferro, and makes volt switch 85% to 2hko fini with volt switch instead of thunderbolt, which can matter
 
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Gomi

yep
is a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Discord Contributor Alumnus
i really dont think its fair to say the people responding to malachite's post are dogpiling when this was posted in the metagame discussion thread, this isn't like the heat thread or something where people just kind post random stuff and people look at them and call it neat. I still have no idea what structure Manectric would even excel vs and I'm sure most of the people criticizing the post feel the same way, because unless your opponent is just not aware Manectric has Overheat for some reason, its an incredibly easy pokemon to switch into with the tier's plentiful Dragons and Grounds, and fails to clean due to its awful power and bad bulk.


I really think taking IPF's suggestion and adding replays would help your case alot.
 
Hey everyone been wondering this a while..

based on the viable threats in OU, what would you say are the 5 most important types to have for team building?

obviously the Pokémon themselves influence the answer, for example there’s a lot of good steel types AND steel has a lot of useful resistances.

meanwhile fire has only a small pool of viable threats however it packs super important resistances and possibly a top 3 STAB to go with it (for the current ICE ICE baby meta)



my thoughts would be something along the lines of steel, flying and ground being top dog. The other 2 could possible be debatable. Fairy has 3 extremely viable tapu’s for example, but they’re not swinging heat like heatran, victini, volcanion and Volcarona.
 
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adem

yap
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Thank you so much for the detailed reply! These are all some really good points, but I'd like to address some of the criticisms you've made, which I feel are absolutely valid and I'm going to be editing in some more details on my Manectric post as a result, but I feel you're really underestimating just how much Manectric forces mind games.

Starting with Zapdos, and an overarching theme I noticed throughout your reply is that prediction is being underlooked, at 1700+ I'm pretty easily able to get a Lightningrod boost, which is why I've found a lot of the calcs relevant, including the 2HKO Zapdos calcs I posted in the FAQ section. Thanks to the team composition, Zapdos is hesitant to click either Heat Wave or Thunderbolt because of Flash Fire Heatran and Lightningrod Manectric. For rain variants, you can also apply this logic to Weather Ball sets with something like Storm Drain Gastrodon as a partner. As for G-Slow, in a lot of cases I'd actually prefer that it does what you say. If you stay in, by that point I'm Switcherooin' a Scarf onto either Future Sight (in which case you have to manually switch), or onto your Teleport. Either way your G-Slow is practically deadweight, and the item Manectric gets from it (usually AV) helps it live even more benchmarks on the special side (and is useful as Manectric gets its utility from its offensive combinations as well, so AV limiting Switcheroo isn't much of an issue, if one at all actually).

I don't think 105 SpA is "pitiful" as I showed above with the Overheat damage calculations. If 105 was pitiful, then 100 and 95 (which are some commonly used SpA stats on OU staples) are dire. It's all about carefully predicting your opponent's switches and capitalizing on Manectric's 105 base speed to swing momentum in your favor. Manectric has the ability to outright OHKO some mons, but that's not its strength, the 2HKO is more important because of wear-down and matchups. I didn't list Mandibuzz as one of the most threatening mons, just double-checked my post, I just listed it as a good match-up for Manectric along with some damage calcs. Also in the case of Tapu Koko, I wouldn't consider taking up to 92% from +1 Overheat as "eating it", that's a pretty reliable OHKO with rocks if you play right.

A lot of the points you made ring a similar tune like "no-one is staying in with Toxapex", that's not the point of Manectric. The point is to predict via double switching to grab momentum, use the Scarf speed or Switcheroo something that absolutely hates scarf, then goes to town, slowly wearing things down with properly built cores and hazard. You're meant to make Manectric force your opponent to shuffle via that prediction and momentum, which is where the strength comes in. It wears down teams quickly, which is where the damage calculations become relevant (especially so at higher play I've found). Also, slight minor nitpick but the Manectric I posted runs 4 Def EVs, not 0. It may not seem as relevant, but oh boy it saves in some really critical situations.

Manectric is not meant to be an overpowering force, and a lot of those calcs (both neutral and +1) were meant to show how it capitalizes on a situation with its unique combination of moves and utility, the role compression and subsequent momentum are deadly, and even if Manectric only cripples one bulky mon like Pex with Scarf and dents something with Overheat, it will have opened a hole for your team to exploit nicely. This is where the strength of the Lightningrod, Switcheroo, Elec + Fire coverage, V-Switch, and base 105 Speed come in handy above all else and why comparing Trick users like Tapu Fini isn't really something to note as they serve completely different functions despite Trick's functionality. Tapu Fini cannot maintain momentum in the same way Manectric does.

Hi, just intend to make this a short reply because its like 8am and I just woke up. Anyways, okay, I can get you might win thr 50/50 occasionally with Zapdos with Heat Wave / Weather Ball, but what if it clicks Hurricane? Either way, something is taking damage, and keep in mind, this is all just a big 50/50, so if you lose you lose approximately 60% of your HP after SRocks, the most they lose is a….+1 Manectric? Which, as Fusien said, they can easily just go into their [Insert Ground / Dragon type]

Yes, 105 offenses is really pitiful unless you have a spammable STAB option [Dragapult Shadow Ball] or you boost your main STAB in other ways [Koko Thunderbolt]. This is also not including the fact that both of these can use boosting items to further bolster their damage, whilst Manectric is bound to Choice Scarf. As I had already mentioned, the calcs you had provided are legitamately unrealistic, as literally over the course of the game, the chances they will happen are miniscule, as no one is going to leave their [Water / Flying type] in front of a boosted / or non boosted Electric type! And yes, doing 92% from a boosted 130 BP move is pitiful, especially considering the fact that actually getting the boost is unrealistic in it self, because, as I mentioned earlier, clicking Electric Type moves in a tier with Ground types and without Hidden Power is a bit difficult, to say the least.

The thing is, Manectric requires careful predicting, and a lot of your points are pretty much based on you having your scarf, although you generally would want to cripple something as soon as possible. However, once you cripple one Pokemon you cannot do it again, and now Manectric is just fodder. No, you are not “wearing things down with properly built cores and hazard. You're meant to make Manectric force your opponent to shuffle via that prediction and momentum, which is where the strength comes in.” because once the Scarf is tricked, I can go into literally any Ground / Dragon type, or my GKing or even my Kanto King !, or just the lot of other Pokemon that Manectric cant make any progress VS. Instead of wearing teams down, you will be worn down much faster due to actually taking Hazards chip and not having a method of recovery, unlike Koko and Zera, and keep in mind, without scarf, you wont actually have the ability to revenge kill the likes of Zolt or Weavile, but without tricking your scarf you dont do anything at all. I think you kinda miscontrued it in the sense that Manectric can do all of this at the same time, ie: cripple an attacker, revenge kill faster threats, when realistically at best only one of these things will happen, at worst, none. The damage calculations will still not become relevant anytime soon because Manectric is just not outlasting any of those Pokemon, or the numerous checks that it has in the tier, and Manec can really only cripple one, so it is not forcing any progress.

Lastly, again, the calcs mentioned are irrelevant because they are just not realistic. Im never going to see a competent player stay in with a Corviknight or a Tapu Fini VS a boosted (or unboosted) Manectric, because why would they when they can go into the million other Manectric checks that easily outlast it over the course of a game? The niches you mentioned are either not very relevant or already easily done with another teammate, ie: Lightning Rod (Ground Types are on nearly every viable team, Zeraora provides a Electric Immunity as well), Electric + Fire coverage (also not very relevant as in Koko’s case, non of the Steel / Ice types actually want to switch into it, and it forces out most of them anyways, barring Ferrothorn, so its more so, Electric + Coverage to hit Ferrothorn. Zera can hit all of them anyways, so the Fire coverage isnt very relevant there; and both of them actually pressure grounds, especially since Lando-T is mostly SpDef now, and can be outlasted by Koko, these two electrics are just much better in terms of that, and Electric / Fire coverage isnt a niche as valuable in a tier where defensive Grasses bar Ferrothorn are living on fringe viability / usage. Switcheroo is probably the only valid niche here, until you realise just how many Pokemon Manectric wants to cripple, and cant, and end up still doing nothing. The base 105 speed isnt exactly that big, especially since you’re extremely reliant on Scarf crippling things, so once thats gone, you essentially lose your speed control Pokemon.

Sorry again if this seems like dogpiling or if im being too harsh, that was not my intentions, This was honestly a fun post to read, but I just saw a lot of misconceptions throughout that made it seem like a hype post for a terrible Pokemon with numerous flaws.
 

pulsar512b

ss ou fangirl
is a Pre-Contributor
Hey everyone been wondering this a while..

based on the viable threats in OU, what would you say are the 5 most important types to have for team building?

obviously the Pokémon themselves influence the answer, for example there’s a lot of good steel types AND steel has a lot of useful resistances.

meanwhile fire has only a small pool of viable threats however it packs super important resistances and possibly a top 3 STAB to go with it (for the current ICE ICE baby meta)



my thoughts would be something along the lines of steel, flying and ground being top dog. The other 2 could possible be debatable. Fairy has 3 extremely viable tapu’s for example, but they’re not swinging heat like heatran, victini, volcanion and Volcarona.
you need a ground type for zera/koko. rest is not like "type" thoughts, just put good mons that work together on the team.
that's it.

other types are like, just put good mons on. who cares. mb you could make a case w almost all rilla/kart checks being steels? but buzzwole does exist sooo
 
you need a ground type for zera/koko. rest is not like "type" thoughts, just put good mons that work together on the team.
that's it.

other types are like, just put good mons on. who cares. mb you could make a case w almost all rilla/kart checks being steels? but buzzwole does exist sooo
Steels are also nice to have against Lele. And there are other checks for Rilla/Kart, Like Tangrowth and Amoonguss. And a good number of flying types at least soft check them even if they don't like getting their Boots knocked off. I usually keep at least one Steel handy both because it's generally a strong defensive typing and also because LeLe/Kyu are scary.
 

pulsar512b

ss ou fangirl
is a Pre-Contributor
Steels are also nice to have against Lele. And there are other checks for Rilla/Kart, Like Tangrowth and Amoonguss. And a good number of flying types at least soft check them even if they don't like getting their Boots knocked off. I usually keep at least one Steel handy both because it's generally a strong defensive typing and also because LeLe/Kyu are scary.
ye i forgot about those mons- i would still say that steels are like.
you'll end up with them on your team, yes.
but you arent like "hey i need to put a steel on", it just happens that you're weak to lele or kyurem and throw on your favorite check (Scizor, Corv, Tran, what have you).
also a team w/o steels>>>>>team w/o ground


also worth noting that of course with HO all of this goes to shit
 
Hey everyone been wondering this a while..

based on the viable threats in OU, what would you say are the 5 most important types to have for team building?

obviously the Pokémon themselves influence the answer, for example there’s a lot of good steel types AND steel has a lot of useful resistances.

meanwhile fire has only a small pool of viable threats however it packs super important resistances and possibly a top 3 STAB to go with it (for the current ICE ICE baby meta)



my thoughts would be something along the lines of steel, flying and ground being top dog. The other 2 could possible be debatable. Fairy has 3 extremely viable tapu’s for example, but they’re not swinging heat like heatran, victini, volcanion and Volcarona.
I think it largely depends on the structure / playstyle (i.e. Rain will largely prefer stuff like Water-types), but personally, I think the 5 most important types are:

Steel
Ground
Electric
Flying
Fairy



Steel is just a pretty solid type in general. Gives you a decent buffer against a lot of the harder hitting moves in the tier like Dragapult's Draco Meteor, Tapu Lele's Psychic, etc. What's nice about Steel-types is that almost none of them play similarly at all. For example, despite both Scizor and Kartana being Sword Dance sweeping Steel-types, how they both go about achieving sweeping and how they are played in a match is pretty different from my experience.

Ground is my pick for the best typing in the tier, mainly because Garchomp and Landorus are both very strong Pokemon. They both have their disadvantages, but both have unparallel utility. Both are pretty good Stealth Rockers and each have their own advantages (Lando is really strong in pivoting cores and Intimidate opens up oppurtunities for other teammates, Garchomp is really fast and strong, making it a more threatening sweeper, epsiciallly with Swords Dance). Another reason Ground-types are strong is because they help prevent the Electric-types like Tapu Koko and Zeraora from freely spamming their STABs.

Flying-types are mainly good because they prevent the strong Ground-types from spamming their powerful Earthquakes. They've also got solid utility against other stuff like Rillaboom and Kartana and most importantly, Defog. Most of the best Flying-types like Tornadus-T, Lando-T and Corviknight are also pretty strong pivots thanks to U-Turn.

Even though Landorus-T and Garchomp are really good I think the Electric-types, (specifically Tapu Koko and Zeraora) are also mad strong too. A lot of the top tier threats, like Corviknight, Urshifu-R, and Toxapex get sliced by their STAB Electric moves. Most teams usually run Garchomp or Lando-T as their main electric-check and both can be worn down heavily throughout the match through smart play. Arctozolt is another very scary electric-type in hail thanks to Slush Rush and OHKOing both Garchomp and Landorus-T. I think other Electric-types like Zapdos and Thundurus-T also have the potential to be really scary in hail too since they can just cleave through Lando / Chomp with Weather Ball.

Fairy is probably the most questionable type on this list, as I believe a lot of other types like Dark, Fire, Ghost, and Ice could be argued to be the 5th best. I mainly put it here because, teambuilding-wise, Fairy has similar utility to Steel in that its able to pivot into some of the scarier moves in the tier, like Weavile's Knock Off and Dragapult's Draco Meteor.

Most of my picks on this list come from playing OU matches, not teambuilding (I struggle pretty hard with this) so keep that in mind.
 
ye i forgot about those mons- i would still say that steels are like.
you'll end up with them on your team, yes.
but you arent like "hey i need to put a steel on", it just happens that you're weak to lele or kyurem and throw on your favorite check (Scizor, Corv, Tran, what have you).
also a team w/o steels>>>>>team w/o ground


also worth noting that of course with HO all of this goes to shit
I wouldn't say you totally need a ground type either, but Garchomp and Lando-T are consistently good and way easier to slap onto a team than most non-ground Zera/Koko checks like Amoonguss or whatever. I wouldn't say that any type is totally mandatory but Ground, Electric, Steel and Flying stand out as more prominent types than the others.
 

pulsar512b

ss ou fangirl
is a Pre-Contributor
I wouldn't say you totally need a ground type either, but Garchomp and Lando-T are consistently good and way easier to slap onto a team than most non-ground Zera/Koko checks like Amoonguss or whatever. I wouldn't say that any type is totally mandatory but Ground, Electric, Steel and Flying stand out as more prominent types than the others.
I would argue that while you can check those pokemon without ground types, you cannot prevent volt switch spamming from Zeraora in particular (and to a lesser extent, koko)

Flying i guess is sorta important? again i feel like other types are just, like, you put them on the team while teambuilding but you dont say to yourself "ok i need to put on [x] type". steel is the perfect ex of this

electric is def not needed, with Zone, koko, zapdos, zera, and i guess Technically arctozolt being the only mainstream options. While Zone is a staple, none of the others are even close to that status (and zone is only a staple on certain offenses)

(worth noting distinction between "most necessary types" and "best types"- i'm answering the former)
 

Scarfire

is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Smogon Discord Contributor Alumnus
MPL Champion
Hey everyone been wondering this a while..

based on the viable threats in OU, what would you say are the 5 most important types to have for team building?

obviously the Pokémon themselves influence the answer, for example there’s a lot of good steel types AND steel has a lot of useful resistances.

meanwhile fire has only a small pool of viable threats however it packs super important resistances and possibly a top 3 STAB to go with it (for the current ICE ICE baby meta)



my thoughts would be something along the lines of steel, flying and ground being top dog. The other 2 could possible be debatable. Fairy has 3 extremely viable tapu’s for example, but they’re not swinging heat like heatran, victini, volcanion and Volcarona.
You absolutely need a steel, ground, and a flying type in current ou. If we are going for 5 I'd say 90% of balances and even offences could do for a fairy, but its not really a mandatory slot. Last one is up for debate but I've personally made it a statement to always have a dragon. Lots of annoying waters, fires, and grasses in this tier. Helps it round out. Dragon is replaceable with a water type though, you hardly see teams without one. Up for debate really.
 

Fusien

"What do you think, Zach?"
is a Tiering Contributor
OUPL Champion
Hey everyone been wondering this a while..

based on the viable threats in OU, what would you say are the 5 most important types to have for team building?

obviously the Pokémon themselves influence the answer, for example there’s a lot of good steel types AND steel has a lot of useful resistances.

meanwhile fire has only a small pool of viable threats however it packs super important resistances and possibly a top 3 STAB to go with it (for the current ICE ICE baby meta)



my thoughts would be something along the lines of steel, flying and ground being top dog. The other 2 could possible be debatable. Fairy has 3 extremely viable tapu’s for example, but they’re not swinging heat like heatran, victini, volcanion and Volcarona.
My 4 would be Ground, Flying, Steel, and Electric, and I’m more mixed on the fifth one. Ground Flying and Steel are all almost always needed imo for some of the key metagame moves and threats, and Electric is super nice to have for the very annoying Tornadus-Therian, though I would say it’s notably less necessary than the first 3. As for the fifth one, I’m split between Fairy, Water, and even Dragon, as though these are nice to have, it isn’t the end of the world at all if a team lacks one/some of these, as long as they have an alternative out vs a threat (steel as a Draco resist) or another offensive mon with similar pressure if the type is being used offensively.
 
I would argue that while you can check those pokemon without ground types, you cannot prevent volt switch spamming from Zeraora in particular (and to a lesser extent, koko)

Flying i guess is sorta important? again i feel like other types are just, like, you put them on the team while teambuilding but you dont say to yourself "ok i need to put on [x] type". steel is the perfect ex of this

electric is def not needed, with Zone, koko, zapdos, zera, and i guess Technically arctozolt being the only mainstream options. While Zone is a staple, none of the others are even close to that status (and zone is only a staple on certain offenses)

(worth noting distinction between "most necessary types" and "best types"- i'm answering the former)
Zeraora on offense and Shedinja on stall are options for dealing with that if you want an immunity. Mind you Chomp and Lando are way more splashable and versatile options, and at least 90% of the time you want a ground type somewhere, but there are viable builds that cover those bases without one.
 

pulsar512b

ss ou fangirl
is a Pre-Contributor
Zeraora on offense and Shedinja on stall are options for dealing with that if you want an immunity. Mind you Chomp and Lando are way more splashable and versatile options, and at least 90% of the time you want a ground type somewhere, but there are viable builds that cover those bases without one.
shed dies to knock and zera is laughably useless for checking this over the course of a longer game w knock and cc being highly annoying.

also chomp and lando arent the only options- important ones include gastrodon, swampert (ok not really this one), and arguably best- hippowdon.
 
Hey everyone been wondering this a while..

based on the viable threats in OU, what would you say are the 5 most important types to have for team building?
Context is everything, but I'd argue that every competent team should have a Flying-type as well as a Ground-type or a mon that replicates an Electric immunity, most competent teams should have a Steel-type, most strong offenses have an Ice-type, most teams should have a Dark-type, and most teams should have a Fairy-type.

Of course, this doesn't paint the whole picture. Lando-T and Garchomp each provide a ton for any team beyond just being Ground-types, while most Steels do more than just be Steels. Ice-types are amazing on offensively-inclined teams like typical Weavile offense, Kyurem offense/balance, or Hail but suck defensively in a meta where Avalugg's series of quirky traits aren't really providing Stall much of anything like they do in a Zygarde/MMaw meta. Dark-types are obviously amazing but all good Darks in this tier also fulfill one of the other obligatory typings.

Flying is the closest thing to a "mandatory" typing in this tier imo, but that's to be expected when Big Lando holds the tier together as much as he does while Tornadus-T, Corviknight, DNite, Skarmory, and Zapdos are all prominent (each to varying degrees, of course) and almost any team without Lando-T has one of these (with several featuring both Big Lando and one of these). ANY archetype will have a Flying-type; they offer important defensive utility with an obligatory Ground immunity, many of them offer much more, and many of these serve as a team's obligatory Rillaboom answer.
 

Red Raven

I COULD BE BANNED!
Hey everyone been wondering this a while..

based on the viable threats in OU, what would you say are the 5 most important types to have for team building?

obviously the Pokémon themselves influence the answer, for example there’s a lot of good steel types AND steel has a lot of useful resistances.

meanwhile fire has only a small pool of viable threats however it packs super important resistances and possibly a top 3 STAB to go with it (for the current ICE ICE baby meta)



my thoughts would be something along the lines of steel, flying and ground being top dog. The other 2 could possible be debatable. Fairy has 3 extremely viable tapu’s for example, but they’re not swinging heat like heatran, victini, volcanion and Volcarona.
For me, it's only ground and steel that I would say are truly needed. Other types usually vary depending on which pokemon I am building a team around. However, for most of my teams, the other three are usually the ones that can be found on them

Steels have a lot of useful resistances while Garchomp and Landorus are just great pokemon in general. Hippowdon is an even great mon since it has invaluable utility in its ability which means you don't autolose to hail if you can't find a pokemon that is dedicated to not lose to Arctozolt

The third would either be fairy or dragon. I know Garchomp is a dragon type but in truth, it doesn't really play like one. You don't usually spam scale shot and mixed sets are rare. Fairy is usually on my team because of their utility although it is mostly just Koko or Fini while the dragon type I use that plays like a dragon is Dragapult because of its speed and very spammable styping

Fourth would be water for me. Pex is just simply unkillable while I've been having a lot of fun using Milotic as well

Fifth is electric and that's only because Koko is a great pokemon. Arctozolt is also great while the others are mostly meh

The order from most to least important for me would be steel > ground > fairy / dragon > water > electric
 

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