You just do a lot less to everything and it takes forever to break. Both can work though, depending on what the team needs. I'm trying out Scarf Nihilego actually! :)
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Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #3539)
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1434597267-bu0sjr23sabv968cn7u17hes1xhxv9ipwI'm back from a long hiatus to mess around with a few things. I noticed that Hail was very rapidly rising to prominence in OU, and I saw a little bit of talk about Arctovish as a fringe option on Hail, so I figured I'd give this bad boy a go since it was brought up in SQSA and I always felt like, if Hail were to be good, Arctovish would be pretty solid. Well, I played around with it a bit since the set I'm posting here was linked in that thread, and I really do think it deserves to be discussed as a mon with a niche on Hail teams, even if it isn't quite as oppressively strong as Arctozolt can feel at times.
Arctovish @ Life Orb
Ability: Slush Rush
EVs: 160 Atk / 96 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Fishious Rend
- Blizzard
- Freeze-Dry
- Super Fang
I can say, with absolute confidence, that this thing is not Arctozolt whatsoever... but honestly, I also don't feel like it's trying to be Arctozolt either. It has noticeably better bulk than Arctozolt and that bulk is further augmented by the fact that it has the slightest bit of actual defensive utility thanks to its Water-typing making sure it doesn't get completely bricked by occasional Earthquakes and giving it both a Water resistance and a better Ice resistance than its mismatched Slush Rush-abusing fossil counterpart.
While Arctozolt has STAB BoltBeam, which is pretty much the best offensive typing we'll ever see outside of Ubers, I often find Bolt Beak to be a heavily-flawed move on its own. While no Ground-type would ever be comfortable eating Arctozolt's Blizzard or Freeze-Dry, they do happen to have an immunity to its ridiculously powerful Bolt Beak that can, in a pinch, prove useful. Fortunately, Arctovish has access to the move that singlehandedly got Dracovish banned to Ubers a long time ago: Fishious Rend.
Fishious Rend is a much, much better move than Bolt Beak and while the coverage it offers alongside Ice STAB is a little on the redundant side at a glance, the move basically removes Arctovish's need to predict too heavily around threats that might give Hail a hard time otherwise; specifically, Fishious Rend always OHKOs SpDef Heatran and thus gives any team using it something to be afraid of:
160 Atk Life Orb Arctovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 491-580 (127.2 - 150.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
This is a huge deal; common Water resists still get battered by Fishious Rend even if it isn't coming close to reaching Dracovish levels of power while also being deathly afraid of Freeze-Dry after some chip, and Ground-types can't even make a half-assed attempt to predict around the move because, unlike with Arctozolt's Bolt Beak, they just outright die to Fishious. It's a great middle ground since Water immunities are basically as commonplace as unicorn sightings in a post-Dracovish meta and as such Arctovish has a move that'll always do damage, and as such teams are ill-equipped to predict around a STAB that they have an immunity to in an attempt to burn precious Hail turns.
While some folks opt to run Substitute to ease prediction as they would on Arctozolt (and it's a perfectly fine option as well), I prefer Super Fang; this is something else Arctozolt just cannot do and as such gives Arctovish a genuine niche over Arctozolt. Super Fang always threatens anything that isn't a Ghost-type, and after entry hazard damage and chip from Hail the move will usually put something in OHKO range of Fishious Rend or one of Arctovish's Ice STABs instead:
96 SpA Life Orb Arctovish Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 135-164 (44.4 - 53.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock, hail damage, and Black Sludge recovery
Pex can't realistically take two Freeze-Dry hits well at all if hazards are up, but Super Fang doesn't even require much prediction. Arctovish forces a lot of switches, and if one doesn't want to predict too much one can just hit something with Super Fang and put it into KO range anyway. It's basically an inverse-Substitute on that front since Arctovish doesn't completely gut its longevity to run it. None of the Ghosts want to switch into either of its STABs anyway, so the Super Fang is a pretty safe bet. SubRoost Kyurem also isn't super thrilled about eating a Super Fang, although in a pinch it can stall Arctovish out if healthy; it's a much, much more lopsided matchup if Vish is running Substitute.
Of course, Super Fang offers a little more than just another way for Arctovish to muscle past its opposition; cutting an opponent's health in half is pretty valuable support for its fellow teammates, too. If Arctovish chips away at a team with Super Fang, a Hail team's obligatory Arctozolt in the back has a very easy time sweeping lategame and a hail team's common Volcanion has a pretty easy time blowing up even a Water resist with Steam Eruption and paving the way for either an Arctozolt sweep or a sweep from Arctovish itself. As such, it can form a nasty core with Arctozolt since, together, they can give one-another's checks absolute hell in preparation for one of them to sweep lategame.
TL;DR: I encourage folks to mess around with Arctovish a bit since Hail's already such a strong archetype. It's not something that fits on every Hail team like Arctozolt does, but it offers a few specific quirks that give it a proper niche on Hail.
Saw this match on Showdown, and Arctovish looked fun to use. It is clearly a banded variant and quite frankly, I wouldn’t use it any other way either. I did some calculations and with a few Defense EVs, it can actually survive a max attack Double Bash from Melmetal 100% of the time. This ancient fish isn’t made of paper, that’s for sure.
Whoever this HO person, it looks like his strategy is to set up hail, Uturn/Teleport, get Arctovish or Arctozolt in and just hack away. Pretty solid strategy I’d said. Arctovish has the exact same speed as Zolt, so don’t see why it wouldn’t be viable in hail as well.
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Alrighty, sorry about the confusion there.
I think you did a great job, thank you for explaining this. I would take Magcargo's advice in using Grassy Terrain though. That would give the same amount of recovery per turn as well as halving the potency of Earthquake, which is one of the main moves you'll have to look out for. Even if you wanted to still have lefties, that means that instead of recovering 1/16, you recover 1/8 now, which would be great for taking hazards. Or of course, you could use the slots for boots to protect yourself from them, Orb or Band to give yourself more attack power, or even Grassy Seed, boosting Defense even more. Meaning now when you fight Lando, we're looking at this.
252+ Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. +1 0 HP / 4 Def Grassy Seed Blaziken in Grassy Terrain: 174-206 (57.8 - 68.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
Even if you're not fighting against a ground-type move:
252+ Atk Dragonite Dual Wingbeat (2 hits) vs. +1 0 HP / 4 Def Grassy Seed Blaziken: 268-316 (89 - 104.9%) -- approx. 12.5% chance to OHKO
Ofc, this is up to you and I'm just throwing suggestions out. Enjoy ya day.
also worth noting that usually blaziken will be used on HO, and sd rilla is a fixture on many successful HO teams, so it's not exactly difficult to find space for both
This is actually an incorrect statement. Scald basically acts as anti-freeze, allowing them to thaw out instantly and threaten something with a burn. It is also worth noting that as bulky water types, they want to switch into fire attacks like Blacephalon Flamethrower, which also allows them to thaw from being frozen.
Red Raven
I COULD BE BANNED!
Now that you mention it, that's probably a better idea. If I'm honest, I really just wanted something that can lure in and kill Corviknight and I didn't want to stoop as low as using Magnezone. I'll have to try that since expert belt allows Garchomp to two shot Tornadus with rock slide, provided it doesn't lose it of course. Although I usually just prefer to poison the last three mons you mentioned which is why toxic is the first option with stone miss as the second
When I was using this, I'm not particularly that concerned about Zapdos. The thing is, stone edge is just an option if you really want to nail Tornadus but I don't use it since poisoning it is reasonable enough and toxic just hits more target in general. I actually ran into Buzzwole once but both Chomp and Buzz led of turn one and I got greedy. Instead of hitting it twice with fire blast, I went for stealth rock and died but still, toxic still puts a tone of pressure on Buzzwole
The relationship between this Garchomp set and Heatran is basically the same to the one between Landorus and Garchomp. It's just meant to stave off Heatran for a couple turns so that Garchomp's own team can deal with it safely just as how Landorus would focus on intimidating Garchomp and buy its team a couple turns against it. In the long run, both would lose to the ones they're meant to stave off. I mean, there's literally no counter to Heatran in the tier that can last the whole game. The only one who fit that role was Gliscor but it isn't around so we'll just have to make do with what we got. Depending on the team, it is entirely possible to overwhelm Heatran and deny it the chance to freely fire off magma storms as it pleases
I haven't tried aqua tail yet but I think it's usually better to just poison Landorus otherwise other targets would just grief Garchomp
Yeah I agree with you that toxic is superior but at that point is it really worth it to give up leftovers and a consistent fire coverage just to deal more damage to Corviknight? You mostly suggest to deal with stuff through toxic anyway. Especially in the long run vs tornadus-t and in handling heatran, having leftovers is huge. You can use a sassy nature and put some EVs into spatk to pump flamethrower damage on corvi and forcing roosts on rocks + flame on the switch.
I feel like dealing more damage to corvi and pressuring defoggers with damage requires you to be more offensive and possibly use stone edge for tornadus-t, which incidentally hits zap and volc. you need to play patiently around lando-t but wearing lando down is quite easy. investing something in atk may also help you with rolls for defog tapu fini - even though ebelt is useless against it - and also with rolls vs really bulky stuff that you can't ohko. you don't need max investment anyway, you can still easily save some bulk if you need to, I'm just saying that, if you play with the calc a bit more, you will probably find a more consistent and worthwhile combination between offensive pressure and defensive utility
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Red Raven
I COULD BE BANNED!
For me, it is. Garchomp is incapable of guaranteeing a two shot on Corviknight on its own which is why I wanted to tinker with its items. Even with max spa, all fire blast does is
252 SpA Garchomp Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 92 SpD Corviknight: 180-212 (45.1 - 53.1%) -- 26.6% chance to 2HKO
It's a roll to two shot and I wanted a guaranteed the two shot. Before I settled with that ev spread, I was just going to use max spa and max spdef so that it can keeps rocks on and deal with Heatran at the same time but since even max spa isn't a clean kill, I decided to use this one. If I had a choice between failing a kill because of damage rolls and being forced to make aggressive plays against Heatran, I would rather choose the second. The rng in this game is already eating away at my sanity
It can still work though. An ev spread of 252 SpA / 228 SpD / 28 Spe with sassy nature with those same four moves can do mostly the same things but can use lefties. The 28 speed evs allows Garchomp to outspeed 120 speed Heatran even with a -spe nature. It was mostly just personal preference because damage rolls are just as bad as stone edge accuracy. That's probably the better ev spread if one is comfortable with damage rolls but that's just not me
And speaking of stone edge, it just tickles on uninvested Garchomp. I might as well use Garchomp's old offensive stealth rock set from gen seven with hard stone at its item if I wanna use that move. The calcs on that set seems promising since defog Fini is not gonna deal with Garchomp at all and the hard stone allows Chomp's stone edge just enough power to two shot Corviknight. In fact, that's probably the best rocker in the tier since it can reliable beat all the defoggers except for the near non existent Latis
I already like this a lot more this way!
Keep in mind you're trying to keep rocks so incorporate it into your fire blast calc: I believe it's 224 or 228 to always 2hko with rocks.
EDIT: 228 SpA Garchomp Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 92 SpD Corviknight: 176-208 (44.1 - 52.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
On stone edge we are saying the same thing: to make it worthwhile with a power boosting item, we need investment. If you are running toxic, then ebelt/charcoal aren't worth it just for fire blast. Invested fire blast already 2hkos corvi after rocks anyway and you can keep lefties for longevity, which greatly compensates for the reduced bulk investment required in order to make fire blast deal useful damage.
Garchomp @ Leftovers
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 228 SpA / 252 SpD / 28 Spe
Sassy Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Fire Blast
- Toxic
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With regard to Arctovish:
It seems cool on paper at least, but there is quite a few notable issues with it (beyond the obvious defensive issue of stacking 3 Ice types on one team).
1. Speed control. Both of them fall short of base 90+ max speed scarfers. While it's true they don't necessarily lose to the exactly the same scarfers (eg: Vish lives Edge from scarfed Lando as long as rocks are off the field), having a mon faster than them does half the power of their formidable STABs, so you'll need a 4th mon on the team to deal with Scarfers in some way. This together with the typing issue limits teambuilding around the three of them a lot.
2. Reliance on hail. Having two mons on your team completely dependent on hail to function means you have to keep the hail setter alive. This somewhat sacrifices the flexibility of traditional hail teams, where Alolatails's main role was Hail, Veil, done, then let Zolt punch holes. Tails dies? That's ok you have 4 mons left who don't care about whether hail is up or not. Zolt dies? Tails can still set Veil for everyone else before joining it. With Lesser Vish in the equation, Tails suddenly can't afford to die. Which brings me nicely to:
3. Hazards and hazard control. With 3 Ice types on your team, you need good hazard control. Especially if you plan on Tails living a long and healthy life. This further limits teambuilding around these three. And what's more, you probably will struggle to fit your own hazards, which lets defensive mons pivot around without punishment, and gives your opponent much less incentive to Defog for you. It's true Zolt and maybe Vish can run Boots to mitigate this issue, but Tails simply cannot, and as mentioned above you now care very much about Tails' lifespan.
On Garchomp:
228 SpA Garchomp Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 92 SpD Corviknight: 176-208 (44.1 - 52.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
and Fire Blast is now being PP stalled comfortably. The only reason I can think of to not go hard Corv into this Chomp is if it's set is totally unrevealed and the opposition fears an offensive set. That or you pair this with Magnezone, at which point Fire Blast is redundant. I like the idea though!
It seems cool on paper at least, but there is quite a few notable issues with it (beyond the obvious defensive issue of stacking 3 Ice types on one team).
1. Speed control. Both of them fall short of base 90+ max speed scarfers. While it's true they don't necessarily lose to the exactly the same scarfers (eg: Vish lives Edge from scarfed Lando as long as rocks are off the field), having a mon faster than them does half the power of their formidable STABs, so you'll need a 4th mon on the team to deal with Scarfers in some way. This together with the typing issue limits teambuilding around the three of them a lot.
2. Reliance on hail. Having two mons on your team completely dependent on hail to function means you have to keep the hail setter alive. This somewhat sacrifices the flexibility of traditional hail teams, where Alolatails's main role was Hail, Veil, done, then let Zolt punch holes. Tails dies? That's ok you have 4 mons left who don't care about whether hail is up or not. Zolt dies? Tails can still set Veil for everyone else before joining it. With Lesser Vish in the equation, Tails suddenly can't afford to die. Which brings me nicely to:
3. Hazards and hazard control. With 3 Ice types on your team, you need good hazard control. Especially if you plan on Tails living a long and healthy life. This further limits teambuilding around these three. And what's more, you probably will struggle to fit your own hazards, which lets defensive mons pivot around without punishment, and gives your opponent much less incentive to Defog for you. It's true Zolt and maybe Vish can run Boots to mitigate this issue, but Tails simply cannot, and as mentioned above you now care very much about Tails' lifespan.
On Garchomp:
Hmm. Seems nice, but I think in practice Corv will be swapping in as rocks go up. This of course means no SR damage and now the calc probably looks like this:I already like this a lot more this way!
Keep in mind you're trying to keep rocks so incorporate it into your fire blast calc: I believe it's 224 or 228 to always 2hko with rocks.
EDIT: 228 SpA Garchomp Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 92 SpD Corviknight: 176-208 (44.1 - 52.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
On stone edge we are saying the same thing: to make it worthwhile with a power boosting item, we need investment. If you are running toxic, then ebelt/charcoal aren't worth it just for fire blast. Invested fire blast already 2hkos corvi after rocks anyway and you can keep lefties for longevity, which greatly compensates for the reduced bulk investment required in order to make fire blast deal useful damage.
Garchomp @ Leftovers
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 228 SpA / 252 SpD / 28 Spe
Sassy Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Fire Blast
- Toxic
228 SpA Garchomp Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 92 SpD Corviknight: 176-208 (44.1 - 52.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
and Fire Blast is now being PP stalled comfortably. The only reason I can think of to not go hard Corv into this Chomp is if it's set is totally unrevealed and the opposition fears an offensive set. That or you pair this with Magnezone, at which point Fire Blast is redundant. I like the idea though!
If we are talking about in-battle scenarios we also need to address these factors: corviknight commonly runs rocky helmet but, even if it runs leftovers, almost every Pokémon it switches into will take away its item. Weavile and Kartana are two prime examples. Furthermore, your own Corviknight is already a great partner for this Garchomp defensively, but you can also use it to grab chip damage with rocky helmet on predicted u-turns, or drain its defog pp with pressure. lastly, with the uptick in scarf lele over specs, some corviknights don't even have spdef investment so the rolls are better.
In short, corviknight's item isn't an issue in game and it's quite easy to force even small chip damage on it to bring it into fire blast 2hko range, or use your corviknight to both force chip and drain defog pp. this chomp is trying to be bulky and not an offensive lure, too.
Found some more replays from the HO user on high ladder.With regard to Arctovish:
It seems cool on paper at least, but there is quite a few notable issues with it (beyond the obvious defensive issue of stacking 3 Ice types on one team).
1. Speed control. Both of them fall short of base 90+ max speed scarfers. While it's true they don't necessarily lose to the exactly the same scarfers (eg: Vish lives Edge from scarfed Lando as long as rocks are off the field), having a mon faster than them does half the power of their formidable STABs, so you'll need a 4th mon on the team to deal with Scarfers in some way. This together with the typing issue limits teambuilding around the three of them a lot.
2. Reliance on hail. Having two mons on your team completely dependent on hail to function means you have to keep the hail setter alive. This somewhat sacrifices the flexibility of traditional hail teams, where Alolatails's main role was Hail, Veil, done, then let Zolt punch holes. Tails dies? That's ok you have 4 mons left who don't care about whether hail is up or not. Zolt dies? Tails can still set Veil for everyone else before joining it. With Lesser Vish in the equation, Tails suddenly can't afford to die. Which brings me nicely to:
3. Hazards and hazard control. With 3 Ice types on your team, you need good hazard control. Especially if you plan on Tails living a long and healthy life. This further limits teambuilding around these three. And what's more, you probably will struggle to fit your own hazards, which lets defensive mons pivot around without punishment, and gives your opponent much less incentive to Defog for you. It's true Zolt and maybe Vish can run Boots to mitigate this issue, but Tails simply cannot, and as mentioned above you now care very much about Tails' lifespan.
On Garchomp:
Hmm. Seems nice, but I think in practice Corv will be swapping in as rocks go up. This of course means no SR damage and now the calc probably looks like this:
228 SpA Garchomp Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 92 SpD Corviknight: 176-208 (44.1 - 52.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
and Fire Blast is now being PP stalled comfortably. The only reason I can think of to not go hard Corv into this Chomp is if it's set is totally unrevealed and the opposition fears an offensive set. That or you pair this with Magnezone, at which point Fire Blast is redundant. I like the idea though!
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1435390851
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1435316757
Who says both Arctovish and Arctozolt must be on the same squad? Arctozolt can easily be replaced by Regieleki, who’s faster than scarf Kartana with max speed which eliminates the speed control issue and still gives you a strong Electric-type Pokemon. On top of that, Regieleki has Rapid Spin, which would support hail teams in removing hazards as well. The Scizor/Landorus in the replay I shared in my last post here obviously has Defog; maybe even both of them do. Hazards removal doesn’t get easier than this combo.
You’re probably asking: who in their right mind would use Arctovish over Arctozolt in hail teams, though? Valid question. This is where creativity comes in. I ask that people actually play with Arctovish and see its damage output and how terrorizing it has the potential to be before making any passing judgements.
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In that case, there's a few other EV spreads you could look at eg:
180 SpA Garchomp Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 92 SpD Corviknight: 168-198 (42.1 - 49.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (min roll 168 damage)-kills after Rocky Helmet chip.
I agree on what you say, assuming some amount of chip is appropriate, but assuming rocks specifically is incorrect. I think it would probably be better to decide on a speed tier, just dump the rest into SpA then work to chip Corv into whatever range you need it at.
EVs: (12 Def) / 180-192 SpA / 252 SpD / 64 Spe
Sassy Nature
For instance, this outruns max speed Arctozolt outside Hail, as well as non +spe base 65 and below, and anything uninvested below 97. Obviously you can play around with the exact EVs and nature, but it's entirely team-dependent at the end of the day.
I wasn't saying Arctovish was unviable, just pointing out the teambuilding difficulties it brings. I did not say "impossible" to fit hazard control, as that team clearly shows it is possible. However it is constraining on teambuilding, which gives you less freedom to work with and opens up other holes (eg: put a Scarf Blace against this team and it wins the moment lando is chipped as the team has no ghost resist and the ghost-weak Bro as its only fire resist. You can see that in the last replay as Delmise forces a kill the moment it comes in and a fast scarfer would cause major issues from here).
As for Vish>Zolt, they should both have distinct enough niches from their differing checks to warrant usage on differing teams. I will say Vish's slightly lower power (as well as lack of Strong Jaw compared to LORD VISH) does make it a bit more possible to wall with mons like Pex (even LO freeze dry doesn't really concern physdef versions without large SpA investment). The bit I'm concerned about is the Regieleki, though I've seen some really cool teams with that recently so I'll reserve judgement (I would imagine it pairs better with Arctozolt though since Zolt forces grounds in on Ice moves for it).
You actually bring up a very good point about what chip damage to consider in this scenario. Having Corviknight or a Defiant user in the back might condition the opponent to avoid clicking Defog and allow you to keep them up. The stealth rock scenario depends on team composition, but your spread maintains effectiveness and is more likely to occur on a regular basis. Very insightful reply, thank you.
Ok finch wanted reasoning for my quagsire to UR nom so here you go
Quagsire vs Toxapex/Gastrodon
Ok statspreads first but its HP/DEF/SPDEF because these mons are NOT used for offense
Toxapex:
50/152/142
Gastrodon:
112/68/82
Quagsire:
95/85/65
I'd say toxapex comes out on top there. Obviously 50 hp sucks but its def and spdef are so much better than the other 2
Obviously, stats aren't everything, so on to defensive typing!
Toxapex: Poison/Water (12% stealth rock)
Gastrodon and Quagsire: Ground/Water (6% stealth rock)
(btw the *number*% stealth rock is how much hp lost from stealth rock)
Toxapex resists: Bug, Fairy, Fighting, Fire, Ice, Poison, Steel, Water
Toxapex is weak to: Electric, Ground, Psychic
Toxapex is immune to: Toxic
Gastrodon and Quagsire resist: Fire, Poison, Rock, Steel
Gastrodon and Quagsire are weak to: Grass (4x weakness)
Gastrodon and Quagsire are immune to: Electric, Sandstorm damage
Toxapex: Upsides and downsides:
Toxapex can soak up toxics and resists a whole lot more than the other 2 whilst not being weak to grass. does have more weaknesses to worry about, somewhat easier to chip (this is kinda irrelevant and I'll get to that later in the post) and also can't soak up electric moves.
Quagsire and gastrodon: Upsides and downsides
1 weakness to toxapex's 3, however this is a much thinner rope to grab because that one weakness is a quad weakness. they do take less from stealth rock and soak up electric moves which is nice. However they have a lot less resistances than pex which means less stuff you can wall with your typing. But you do fare better against heatran which is good.
Part 3: Abilities
Toxapex:
Regenerator
This is a super handy tool when you can't escape a 2HKO with recover and come in on something you wall to recover later. this also renders stealth rock nearly useless which is nice..
Gastrodon: Sticky hold OR Storm drain
Sticky hold: Honestly I'd rather run storm drain to soft check waters but being a good knock off soaker is nice
Storm drain: Soft check alot of waters that way and wall washtom.
Quagsire:
Unaware OR water absorb
Water absorb: ehhhhh gastrodon is pretty much better at water softchecking so meh, you also give up on unaware.
Unaware: Clefable is better for this ngl, because it can cm.
Movepool:
very similar. All can spread toxic, get scald burns, and recover. heres the main draw of a move for each pokemon
Toxapex: Toxic spikes allows pex to spread poison throughout the game, even when not on the field. To spread it to the fullest it enjoys pokemon that can force lots of switches.
Gastrodon: earth power isn't really the biggest draw on earth but you hit tran ig?
Quagsire: A gastrodon scenario but with earthquake.
I'd say pex comes out on top here.
Quagsire vs Toxapex/Gastrodon
Ok statspreads first but its HP/DEF/SPDEF because these mons are NOT used for offense
Toxapex:
50/152/142
Gastrodon:
112/68/82
Quagsire:
95/85/65
I'd say toxapex comes out on top there. Obviously 50 hp sucks but its def and spdef are so much better than the other 2
Obviously, stats aren't everything, so on to defensive typing!
Toxapex: Poison/Water (12% stealth rock)
Gastrodon and Quagsire: Ground/Water (6% stealth rock)
(btw the *number*% stealth rock is how much hp lost from stealth rock)
Toxapex resists: Bug, Fairy, Fighting, Fire, Ice, Poison, Steel, Water
Toxapex is weak to: Electric, Ground, Psychic
Toxapex is immune to: Toxic
Gastrodon and Quagsire resist: Fire, Poison, Rock, Steel
Gastrodon and Quagsire are weak to: Grass (4x weakness)
Gastrodon and Quagsire are immune to: Electric, Sandstorm damage
Toxapex: Upsides and downsides:
Toxapex can soak up toxics and resists a whole lot more than the other 2 whilst not being weak to grass. does have more weaknesses to worry about, somewhat easier to chip (this is kinda irrelevant and I'll get to that later in the post) and also can't soak up electric moves.
Quagsire and gastrodon: Upsides and downsides
1 weakness to toxapex's 3, however this is a much thinner rope to grab because that one weakness is a quad weakness. they do take less from stealth rock and soak up electric moves which is nice. However they have a lot less resistances than pex which means less stuff you can wall with your typing. But you do fare better against heatran which is good.
Part 3: Abilities
Toxapex:
Regenerator
This is a super handy tool when you can't escape a 2HKO with recover and come in on something you wall to recover later. this also renders stealth rock nearly useless which is nice..
Gastrodon: Sticky hold OR Storm drain
Sticky hold: Honestly I'd rather run storm drain to soft check waters but being a good knock off soaker is nice
Storm drain: Soft check alot of waters that way and wall washtom.
Quagsire:
Unaware OR water absorb
Water absorb: ehhhhh gastrodon is pretty much better at water softchecking so meh, you also give up on unaware.
Unaware: Clefable is better for this ngl, because it can cm.
Movepool:
very similar. All can spread toxic, get scald burns, and recover. heres the main draw of a move for each pokemon
Toxapex: Toxic spikes allows pex to spread poison throughout the game, even when not on the field. To spread it to the fullest it enjoys pokemon that can force lots of switches.
Gastrodon: earth power isn't really the biggest draw on earth but you hit tran ig?
Quagsire: A gastrodon scenario but with earthquake.
I'd say pex comes out on top here.
my adhd rly hates this formatting.
your argument falls flat because its based around the assumption that quag is competing for a slot with pex/gastro. which its not. quag is a very poor water resist, so quag is never going to be in the same league as pex/gastro in this department. in fact, some stall teams stack quag and pex together. the reason for that being quags niche in ou is because of its ground typing and unaware, which are two things heavily desired on stall teams. you can make a argument that quag is outclassed in both roles but clefable and other ground types, which then would make this entire UR thing have a backbone. however, being able to use quag as a role compression for both of those slots can be very beneficial for some stall teams. is quag the best? no, far from it. it has some very glaring weaknesses which are reflective in its rank but its niche cements quagsire far from unviable. not every stall team is going to want to spam clefable and not every stall team is gonna wanna spam hippo.
e: i fell for the bait
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I would like to add to this, quagsire's other niche in stall is an unaware user that also soft checks heatran and hard counters magnezone, both of which give clefable and stall in general a very hard time. It is also a great stop to pads melmetal since it is immune to or resists everything except superpower, and we know how much that is a problem to stall.
there are also several more reasons to have quagsire as your unaware user over clef; clef's very mediocre physical bulk means that it can't reliably switch into some things it should be checking, for example:
252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 172-203 (43.6 - 51.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 172-203 (43.6 - 51.5%) -- 6.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 187-222 (47.4 - 56.3%) -- 28.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 187-222 (47.4 - 56.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
so the increase in bulk is quite important.
Clef is also a much more versatile mon than quagsire, so you can do some other stuff with it and have quagsire covering the unaware role(indeed my favorite team this gen has pex,quag and clef on it, and barb clef is lowkey pretty decent on stall), like rocker or cleric
Yes quagsire has a quad weakness, but it is probably the easiest quad weakness to cover with your teammates ever, since just slapping in a metal bird is a pretty decent solution to its weakness, and the metal birds appreciate quaggy's ability to stave off tran and zone, so it just slots into stall builds quite naturally. The only two viable attackers that use the typing are kartana and rillaboom, and kartana trucks clefable with smart strike or 2hkos with LO leaf blade depending on set, so unaware clef still isnt much better than quagsire against it, and rilla has fallen off quite drastically
The comparison to gastro seems reasonable on the outside, but they don't really serve the same niche on stall, as one is an unaware physical wall, while the other is a watrer immune special wall; they are both very good on stall but offer different kinds of role compression despite their same typing
EDIT: as an aside, I really don't get why people focus so much on using cm unaware clef on stall and the opsession with always having a sweeper. an unaware mons role on a stall team is not to sweep(most of the time), it's to prevent you from getting swept, and people constantly try to say that clef is a better unaware user because of cm even though the drop in bulk makes it much weaker to just getting hit neutrally by unboosted attacks, which is kind of the whole point
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Here to say really quickly not to repost posts from the VR thread in the metagame discussion thread to derail discussion please
I'll be deleting posts replying to this going forward since it's not meant to be taken seriously; however please bear in mind that troll posts like these will not be tolerated and I'll be keeping this post up to keep things transparent. Thanks for your understanding and have a good weekend everyone!
Corviknight is overrated.
I've seen it on balances more and more, but the problem I have with Corviknight is that it inflicts upon itself the exact same system of turns that made Darkfu and Cinderace broken. Wicked Blow did enough to everything in the tier that it forced a recovery move, letting the opponent double and be in a position of advantage (even if a Darkfu hit a Clefable at full with a Wicked Blow). This made it so that clicking Wicked Blow was basically 0 Drawback. Cinderace created a similar situation, doing enough with Pyro Ball that even solid checks like Hippowdon were forced to recover, while Cinderace clicked U-turn and got the advantage. Corviknight does this to itself every single turn. The opponent goes for Stealth Rocks. Corviknight clicks Defog. Let's use Landorus as an example. Landorus can click SR a few times, Corv may U-turn out, letting rocks up and putting the Landorus user in a good spot (as Corviknight teams never appreciate hazards much). The other end is that Corviknight stays in to Defog consistently, letting the Landorus user get a free switch to whatever pokemon they want, like a Victini, Tapu Koko, Kyurem, etc. Which ALSO makes Corviknight in disadvantage. Corviknight is the king of losing situations like this and being put in disadvantage. Corviknight, meanwhile, can hardly touch most hazard setters, being unable to use Knock Off or Toxic. Even a pokemon like Hippowdon, which Corviknight can stall out Stealth Rocks, leads to the Hippowdon user getting a free switch. When your opponent gets a free switch (into a breaker, most often) you need a fat team to handle this. An offense cannot stand having a Victini come in for free, while a stall team can. It is for this reason that I feel Corviknight is a stall pokemon, and should generally be used less on balances than I'm seeing. There are a few other reasons not to use Corviknight, such as Magnezone, the fact that Ferrothorn forces it out with Body Press + Leech Seed, and a few other small small things that harm it, but the biggest problem is that it either lets up hazards or lets in a breaker EVERY SINGLE TIME it comes in.
I've seen it on balances more and more, but the problem I have with Corviknight is that it inflicts upon itself the exact same system of turns that made Darkfu and Cinderace broken. Wicked Blow did enough to everything in the tier that it forced a recovery move, letting the opponent double and be in a position of advantage (even if a Darkfu hit a Clefable at full with a Wicked Blow). This made it so that clicking Wicked Blow was basically 0 Drawback. Cinderace created a similar situation, doing enough with Pyro Ball that even solid checks like Hippowdon were forced to recover, while Cinderace clicked U-turn and got the advantage. Corviknight does this to itself every single turn. The opponent goes for Stealth Rocks. Corviknight clicks Defog. Let's use Landorus as an example. Landorus can click SR a few times, Corv may U-turn out, letting rocks up and putting the Landorus user in a good spot (as Corviknight teams never appreciate hazards much). The other end is that Corviknight stays in to Defog consistently, letting the Landorus user get a free switch to whatever pokemon they want, like a Victini, Tapu Koko, Kyurem, etc. Which ALSO makes Corviknight in disadvantage. Corviknight is the king of losing situations like this and being put in disadvantage. Corviknight, meanwhile, can hardly touch most hazard setters, being unable to use Knock Off or Toxic. Even a pokemon like Hippowdon, which Corviknight can stall out Stealth Rocks, leads to the Hippowdon user getting a free switch. When your opponent gets a free switch (into a breaker, most often) you need a fat team to handle this. An offense cannot stand having a Victini come in for free, while a stall team can. It is for this reason that I feel Corviknight is a stall pokemon, and should generally be used less on balances than I'm seeing. There are a few other reasons not to use Corviknight, such as Magnezone, the fact that Ferrothorn forces it out with Body Press + Leech Seed, and a few other small small things that harm it, but the biggest problem is that it either lets up hazards or lets in a breaker EVERY SINGLE TIME it comes in.
Yeah, I agree with this sentiment (specifically for Defog Corviknight). In most cases where I found it threatening, it was typically being used on a stall build. Something like Tapu Koko or Victini coming for free was significantly less troublesome when there is a sturdy mon like Hippowdon that could take and recover from the blow. Since Stall games tend to last longer, Pressure also ends up working way better at stalling out moves. Combined with its Toxic Immunity and it becomes a vital tool in these longer games.
IMO Skarmory is a better utility pick on Balance teams. Despite not being as good at checking special attacks, its able to pressure incoming wallbreakers like Tapu Koko and Victini with either Toxic or Whirlwind, and Spikes are pretty useful to help your own offensive mons better pressure the opponent.
I haven't tried this myself, but on balance teams, dropping Defog for Iron Defense doesn't seem like a terrible idea just to drastically improve Corv's 1v1 matchups. You are able to apply much more immediate pressure to mons like Garchomp, Dragonite, Melmetal, etc. Physical wallbreakers like Victini can't actually come in for free anymore since you are only taking 50% from V-Create at +2, letting you actually stall it out. Against special wallbreakers like Tapu Koko and Blacephalon, you can still pivot out with U-turn so they can't grab momentum.
Just a quick thought on 
and the 10% freeze.
this is playing odds , and freeze is powerful, so it makes Kyurem better.
however all Pokémon is about playing odds, literally everything from choosing flamethrower over fire blast , to avoiding Pokémon that rely on focus blast and hurricane.
even matchups are about odds, you might have a fun team you enjoy that’s particularly weak to a well played banded Melmetal, or maybe you have a hard time every time you come across a wall breaking Tapu fini..
I mean if 10% freeze is the reason Kyurem is over the edge… then what about 20% chance for dragapult to break its checks? The speed is almost uncontested
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Kyurem is probably more annoying due to its natural bulk in addition to the power of its moves. Seriously it’s impressive that it can survive specs psychic from lele!
—
Odds sometimes don’t work out… it is what it is.. it’s true that a strong Pokémon is sometimes x% chance away from breaking past its checks, or incapacitating them for the game. But that’s not what makes it great, you just need to play the odds and over many games you’ll come out on top.
—
here’s an example of Volcarona breaking past two of its best checks due to odds (0.06 x 0.1 = 0.6% chance)… does that make it broken, because you have to rely on shitty rock moves to counter it only 90% of the time ?
personally I think the ability for an occasional freeze to force progress is a good thing. We need more of it in OU to prevent games dragging out. Personally I am a big fan of stall and slow moving teams being punished by the 10-30% secondary effects and the 6.25% crit rate. It disincentives the endless spam of recovery moves!
and the 10% freeze.this is playing odds , and freeze is powerful, so it makes Kyurem better.
however all Pokémon is about playing odds, literally everything from choosing flamethrower over fire blast , to avoiding Pokémon that rely on focus blast and hurricane.
even matchups are about odds, you might have a fun team you enjoy that’s particularly weak to a well played banded Melmetal, or maybe you have a hard time every time you come across a wall breaking Tapu fini..
I mean if 10% freeze is the reason Kyurem is over the edge… then what about 20% chance for dragapult to break its checks? The speed is almost uncontested
—
Kyurem is probably more annoying due to its natural bulk in addition to the power of its moves. Seriously it’s impressive that it can survive specs psychic from lele!
—
Odds sometimes don’t work out… it is what it is.. it’s true that a strong Pokémon is sometimes x% chance away from breaking past its checks, or incapacitating them for the game. But that’s not what makes it great, you just need to play the odds and over many games you’ll come out on top.
—
here’s an example of Volcarona breaking past two of its best checks due to odds (0.06 x 0.1 = 0.6% chance)… does that make it broken, because you have to rely on shitty rock moves to counter it only 90% of the time ?
personally I think the ability for an occasional freeze to force progress is a good thing. We need more of it in OU to prevent games dragging out. Personally I am a big fan of stall and slow moving teams being punished by the 10-30% secondary effects and the 6.25% crit rate. It disincentives the endless spam of recovery moves!
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Kyurem exerts an unhealthy effect on the metagame.
A while ago, I made a post about Tapu Lele and the impact it exerts on Steel-types in the tier with its unique dual STAB combination. While at the time I did not view Tapu Lele as a broken force, I did feel there was a dangerous kind of pressure on Steel-types that made it exceedingly difficult for them to keep things like the aforementioned Tapu Lele, Weavile, and Dragapult in check at a given time. While Pokemon like Weavile and Dragapult could be blanket checked with other options, Tapu Lele created, in my eyes, a very one-of-a-kind pressure to Steel-types--which often are utilized to reinforce a team's backbone due to their wide range of resistances and positive matchups against the tier's array of wallbreakers. To me, I felt Tapu Lele was the big perpetrator of this problem even if it wasn't banworthy in itself. But, I observe now that Kyurem does something very similar and to a genuinely problematic extent due to its access to both Ice Beam and Freeze-Dry generally mandating the already highly relied upon Steel-types to check its main STABs in addition to everything else they're tasked to check, as well as Earth Power further cracking down on this pool of checks.
Although it is a Pokemon with several noteworthy caveats, such as a Stealth Rock weakness and a mediocre speed tier; it is one of our tier's strongest and most versatile wallbreakers. As of late, we've been seeing a lot more Kyurem, and this is not surprising whatsoever. With its wide array of dangerous offensive sets, ranging from the classic SubRoost to SubDD, Choice Specs, and the newly discovered Never-Melt Ice, it is a Pokemon that has historically been very difficult to play around in SS OU and continues to be to this day. Furthermore, it exploits many of our tier's common backbones; its new access to Freeze-Dry allows for it to apply consistent pressure to common bulky Water-types such as Tapu Fini and Toxapex which tend to round off many of the tier's bulky offenses and balances respectively. As a consequence, in a somewhat similar vein to Tapu Lele, it applies a very unrelenting, forcible pressure on Steel-types that forces players to play and build with them much more deliberately than we are used to, arguably to a constraining extent. While bulky Water-types can help pigeonhole Kyurem into Freeze-Dry, pivoting with your Steel-types is still very troubling, especially if it is not Choice-locked and is able to then pick your Heatran or Melmetal off with an Earth Power. Never-Melt Ice, its latest and most hip set, fully capitalizes upon this by taking advantage of Kyurem's access to Roost and general disregard for Scald by combining the general breaking power of its Choice Specs-boosted Ice-type STAB and the general lack of need to predict that we see with its Substitute variants. In addition to being near impossible to switch into safely, it has the typing and longevity to find many wallbreaking opportunities throughout the game. This, consequently, leaves Scizor and Specially Defensive Ferrothorn as among the few Steel-types able to keep it tempered, and only a few other fringe options like Blissey and bulky Volcarona that tend to be tasked to provide a reliable Ice-type pivot that is also able to take on Earth Power. The former, however, is heavily exploited by Choice Specs Focus Blast, SubRoost, and SubDD, leaving Volcarona as the only true counter to its main sets (which generally disclude Draco Meteor). Bulky Offenses that do not employ these 4 Pokemon tend to have an egregious time playing around it defensively and generally are forced into revenge killing it either by first losing a Pokemon or winning 50/50s more often than not.
Even without factoring in the Freeze conversation we've been seeing a lot of that can render theoretically all of its potential counterplay moot as is, I would argue these merits alone elevate Kyurem into a realm of its own. It is a premier wall-breaking force that is very difficult to switch into without dedicated answers; among the Pokemon that can attempt to check it without pigeonholing you into one or two specific options, the pool is very small. While I recognize that Kyurem is not without its counterplay (to say it doesn't have counterplay is ridiculous), there is a reason I believe it is unhealthy, as opposed to outright broken, and that boils down to its effect on the way we build our teams, as well as the pressure it exerts on Steel-types in execution (as explained above). This is especially apparent within offenses that tend not to enjoy using Blissey for its general passivity or Volcarona for its crippling polarity, which Kyurem feasts upon; in fact, a very popular replay that demonstrates the weakness in generally optimal cores that Kyurem is able to exploit is the SCL game between BIHI and Finchinator.
Should it be banned? I personally am leaning more toward it being an unbalanced force in the metagame. Even if it turns out to not be unhealthy, I do believe suspecting it is a reasonable approach that will allow us to spend a good amount of time to evaluate its impact on the metagame at large, especially given how healthy and solidly balanced the metagame is otherwise.
A while ago, I made a post about Tapu Lele and the impact it exerts on Steel-types in the tier with its unique dual STAB combination. While at the time I did not view Tapu Lele as a broken force, I did feel there was a dangerous kind of pressure on Steel-types that made it exceedingly difficult for them to keep things like the aforementioned Tapu Lele, Weavile, and Dragapult in check at a given time. While Pokemon like Weavile and Dragapult could be blanket checked with other options, Tapu Lele created, in my eyes, a very one-of-a-kind pressure to Steel-types--which often are utilized to reinforce a team's backbone due to their wide range of resistances and positive matchups against the tier's array of wallbreakers. To me, I felt Tapu Lele was the big perpetrator of this problem even if it wasn't banworthy in itself. But, I observe now that Kyurem does something very similar and to a genuinely problematic extent due to its access to both Ice Beam and Freeze-Dry generally mandating the already highly relied upon Steel-types to check its main STABs in addition to everything else they're tasked to check, as well as Earth Power further cracking down on this pool of checks.
Although it is a Pokemon with several noteworthy caveats, such as a Stealth Rock weakness and a mediocre speed tier; it is one of our tier's strongest and most versatile wallbreakers. As of late, we've been seeing a lot more Kyurem, and this is not surprising whatsoever. With its wide array of dangerous offensive sets, ranging from the classic SubRoost to SubDD, Choice Specs, and the newly discovered Never-Melt Ice, it is a Pokemon that has historically been very difficult to play around in SS OU and continues to be to this day. Furthermore, it exploits many of our tier's common backbones; its new access to Freeze-Dry allows for it to apply consistent pressure to common bulky Water-types such as Tapu Fini and Toxapex which tend to round off many of the tier's bulky offenses and balances respectively. As a consequence, in a somewhat similar vein to Tapu Lele, it applies a very unrelenting, forcible pressure on Steel-types that forces players to play and build with them much more deliberately than we are used to, arguably to a constraining extent. While bulky Water-types can help pigeonhole Kyurem into Freeze-Dry, pivoting with your Steel-types is still very troubling, especially if it is not Choice-locked and is able to then pick your Heatran or Melmetal off with an Earth Power. Never-Melt Ice, its latest and most hip set, fully capitalizes upon this by taking advantage of Kyurem's access to Roost and general disregard for Scald by combining the general breaking power of its Choice Specs-boosted Ice-type STAB and the general lack of need to predict that we see with its Substitute variants. In addition to being near impossible to switch into safely, it has the typing and longevity to find many wallbreaking opportunities throughout the game. This, consequently, leaves Scizor and Specially Defensive Ferrothorn as among the few Steel-types able to keep it tempered, and only a few other fringe options like Blissey and bulky Volcarona that tend to be tasked to provide a reliable Ice-type pivot that is also able to take on Earth Power. The former, however, is heavily exploited by Choice Specs Focus Blast, SubRoost, and SubDD, leaving Volcarona as the only true counter to its main sets (which generally disclude Draco Meteor). Bulky Offenses that do not employ these 4 Pokemon tend to have an egregious time playing around it defensively and generally are forced into revenge killing it either by first losing a Pokemon or winning 50/50s more often than not.
Even without factoring in the Freeze conversation we've been seeing a lot of that can render theoretically all of its potential counterplay moot as is, I would argue these merits alone elevate Kyurem into a realm of its own. It is a premier wall-breaking force that is very difficult to switch into without dedicated answers; among the Pokemon that can attempt to check it without pigeonholing you into one or two specific options, the pool is very small. While I recognize that Kyurem is not without its counterplay (to say it doesn't have counterplay is ridiculous), there is a reason I believe it is unhealthy, as opposed to outright broken, and that boils down to its effect on the way we build our teams, as well as the pressure it exerts on Steel-types in execution (as explained above). This is especially apparent within offenses that tend not to enjoy using Blissey for its general passivity or Volcarona for its crippling polarity, which Kyurem feasts upon; in fact, a very popular replay that demonstrates the weakness in generally optimal cores that Kyurem is able to exploit is the SCL game between BIHI and Finchinator.
Should it be banned? I personally am leaning more toward it being an unbalanced force in the metagame. Even if it turns out to not be unhealthy, I do believe suspecting it is a reasonable approach that will allow us to spend a good amount of time to evaluate its impact on the metagame at large, especially given how healthy and solidly balanced the metagame is otherwise.
If you have not read my original post on page 158, please do so. It shows how likely freezing really is, and how unlikely unfreezing is in the context of a game. As for the "but what about Dragapult Shadow Ball and other hax" I have adressed this as well in this discussion, I would highly recommend reading past discussion posts so we don't rehash tired points. I'm really shocked though that you used that Volcarona as an example... how many games does Volcarona win due to dodging rock moves? Way, way, way less than Kyurem wins due to freezes, since Volcarona only has one shot whereas Kyurem has often tons of shots. This comparison is frankly absurd from a statistical standpoint.Just a quick thought on
this is playing odds , and freeze is powerful, so it makes Kyurem better.
however all Pokémon is about playing odds, literally everything from choosing flamethrower over fire blast , to avoiding Pokémon that rely on focus blast and hurricane.
even matchups are about odds, you might have a fun team you enjoy that’s particularly weak to a well played banded Melmetal, or maybe you have a hard time every time you come across a wall breaking Tapu fini..
I mean if 10% freeze is the reason Kyurem is over the edge… then what about 20% chance for dragapult to break its checks? The speed is almost uncontested
—
Kyurem is probably more annoying due to its natural bulk in addition to the power of its moves. Seriously it’s impressive that it can survive specs psychic from lele!
—
Odds sometimes don’t work out… it is what it is.. it’s true that a strong Pokémon is sometimes x% chance away from breaking past its checks, or incapacitating them for the game. But that’s not what makes it great, you just need to play the odds and over many games you’ll come out on top.
—
here’s an example of Volcarona breaking past two of its best checks due to odds (0.06 x 0.1 = 0.6% chance)… does that make it broken, because you have to rely on shitty rock moves to counter it only 90% of the time ?
View attachment 377928
personally I think the ability for an occasional freeze to force progress is a good thing. We need more of it in OU to prevent games dragging out. Personally I am a big fan of stall and slow moving teams being punished by the 10-30% secondary effects and the 6.25% crit rate. It disincentives the endless spam of recovery moves!
"Personally I am a big fan of stall and slow moving teams being punished by the 10-30% secondary effects and the 6.25% crit rate. It disincentives the endless spam of recovery moves!"
Kyurem freezing is a HUGE asset to stall, which often utilizes bulky Kyurem and freezes balance teams. Freezing does not hurt stall basically at all, due to utilizing Natural Cure Blissey. Crits hurt stall, and I love those, though that's not what this is about. But saying Kyurem freezes hurt stall? Very much the opposite.
yes I read through them all, Kyurem doesn’t force out as many offensive threats as a specs pult, due to its speed. it’s also much less efficient in the end game, tho it makes up for that with early and mid game potency.
Your team can be weak to Kyurem because it relies on switching into ice beams 3-5x times on average per match against Kyurem. If you’re highly concerned about the higher odds for a freeze, then maybe try to get more of those ice beam/freeze dry absorbers to pack scald or switch into fire moves. Or re-adjust the team so you’re risking 1-3 ice moves per match instead.
sounds like a matchup issue..
I have teams weak to Kartana, Weavile, dragapult, blacephalon, and all the other top hard hitting threats. They’re top Threats for a reason.
the SCL game posted above was a great example of a Kyurem weak team with minimum options that outspend it and
In that anecdote: if you want the luxury of packing super high utility, extremely viable Pokémon’s like landorus, heatran and fini, then you need to balance it out by covering their biggest threats.
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By the way., the name is Alolan Ninetales. The gimmick is that Ninetales is based on a mythological creature, and is in Pokemon;With regard to Arctovish:
It seems cool on paper at least, but there is quite a few notable issues with it (beyond the obvious defensive issue of stacking 3 Ice types on one team).
1. Speed control. Both of them fall short of base 90+ max speed scarfers. While it's true they don't necessarily lose to the exactly the same scarfers (eg: Vish lives Edge from scarfed Lando as long as rocks are off the field), having a mon faster than them does half the power of their formidable STABs, so you'll need a 4th mon on the team to deal with Scarfers in some way. This together with the typing issue limits teambuilding around the three of them a lot.
2. Reliance on hail. Having two mons on your team completely dependent on hail to function means you have to keep the hail setter alive. This somewhat sacrifices the flexibility of traditional hail teams, where Alolatails's main role was Hail, Veil, done, then let Zolt punch holes. Tails dies? That's ok you have 4 mons left who don't care about whether hail is up or not. Zolt dies? Tails can still set Veil for everyone else before joining it. With Lesser Vish in the equation, Tails suddenly can't afford to die. Which brings me nicely to:
3. Hazards and hazard control. With 3 Ice types on your team, you need good hazard control. Especially if you plan on Tails living a long and healthy life. This further limits teambuilding around these three. And what's more, you probably will struggle to fit your own hazards, which lets defensive mons pivot around without punishment, and gives your opponent much less incentive to Defog for you. It's true Zolt and maybe Vish can run Boots to mitigate this issue, but Tails simply cannot, and as mentioned above you now care very much about Tails' lifespan.
On Garchomp:
Hmm. Seems nice, but I think in practice Corv will be swapping in as rocks go up. This of course means no SR damage and now the calc probably looks like this:
228 SpA Garchomp Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 92 SpD Corviknight: 176-208 (44.1 - 52.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
and Fire Blast is now being PP stalled comfortably. The only reason I can think of to not go hard Corv into this Chomp is if it's set is totally unrevealed and the opposition fears an offensive set. That or you pair this with Magnezone, at which point Fire Blast is redundant. I like the idea though!
Other than that, I think you bring up nice points. Aurora Veil Hail Teams really need to watch that Ice weakness...