Resource Stall in ORAS

[bludz]

I'm not going to argue Sableye isn't a better stall mega but I really don't get why you're arguing Altaria isn't all that good on stall :s

Your scenario assumes perfect predictions. A lot of the time Chomp is forced to click Dragon Tail otherwise Skarmory comes in for free. Not to mention that Chomps which carry Toxic have 0 Atk investment:

0 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 104+ Def Mega Altaria: 103-123 (29.1 - 34.8%)

EXTREMELY low likelihood it 2HKOs Altaria even if it's at 69% after 2 SR switch-ins and one turn of Toxic. This scenario also assumes that your altaria counter isn't a free switch for their spinner (starmie for Tran) or defogger ( skarm for nearly any steel, poison or fairy type)

It's impossible to cover every single threat anyway, even on stall. I would rather have no answers to something that's very uncommon than have only one counter to bigger threats like Zard X, which can overpower many of its common counters on stall anyway (SD beats Hippo and Slowbro, Outrage 2HKOs Quagsire on the switch-in).

I'm not going to argue this any further with you. If you think Altaria is not good on stall then that is fine but I believe you are sorely mistaken. It's a great glue mon and even if it isn't always the right fit it's definitely one of the better choices.

 

[MoxieInfinite]

toss some hp onto goth on the cleaner stall.

 

[Lil YoshiXD]

I'm not going to argue Sableye isn't a better stall mega but I really don't get why you're arguing Altaria isn't all that good on stall :s

Your scenario assumes perfect predictions. A lot of the time Chomp is forced to click Dragon Tail otherwise Skarmory comes in for free. Not to mention that Chomps which carry Toxic have 0 Atk investment:

0 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 104+ Def Mega Altaria: 103-123 (29.1 - 34.8%)

EXTREMELY low likelihood it 2HKOs Altaria even if it's at 69% after 2 SR switch-ins and one turn of Toxic. This scenario also assumes that your altaria counter isn't a free switch for their spinner (starmie for Tran) or defogger ( skarm for nearly any steel, poison or fairy type)

It's impossible to cover every single threat anyway, even on stall. I would rather have no answers to something that's very uncommon than have only one counter to bigger threats like Zard X, which can overpower many of its common counters on stall anyway (SD beats Hippo and Slowbro, Outrage 2HKOs Quagsire on the switch-in).

I'm not going to argue this any further with you. If you think Altaria is not good on stall then that is fine but I believe you are sorely mistaken. It's a great glue mon and even if it isn't always the right fit it's definitely one of the better choices.

Is Outrage SD zard X really the bigger threat though?
1695 stats for last month:

Hide

22 | Charizard | 9.74036%
Charizard | +----------------------------------------+ | Raw count: 177696 | | Avg. weight: 0.0457007032821 | +----------------------------------------+ | Abilities | | Blaze 96.065% | | Solar Power 3.935% | +----------------------------------------+ | Items | | Charizardite X 58.065% | | Charizardite Y 41.476% | | Other 0.459% | +----------------------------------------+ | Spreads | | Timid:0/0/0/252/4/252 11.728% | | Adamant:0/252/0/0/4/252 8.050% | | Modest:0/0/0/252/4/252 7.193% | | Adamant:144/252/0/0/0/112 5.287% | | Timid:0/0/4/252/0/252 5.023% | | Jolly:0/252/0/0/4/252 4.808% | | Other 57.911% | +----------------------------------------+ | Moves | | Roost 67.086% | | Dragon Dance 52.442% | | Dragon Claw 51.401% | | Flare Blitz 44.888% | | Solar Beam 39.087% | | Earthquake 31.207% | | Focus Blast 25.376% | | Fire Blast 22.904% | | Flamethrower 18.128% | | Air Slash 7.740% | | Fire Punch 7.548% | | Will-O-Wisp 7.175% | | Dragon Pulse 5.368% | | Other 19.649%

Basically zard is on just under 10% of teams. X receives about 58% usage so zard X is on about 5% of teams. Outrage and SD neither receive even 5% usage on Zard sets. Therefore imo SD outrage zard x isn't a threat you have to worry about that much. Zard X is a threat but its standard set can be handled by hippo, slowbro, quag, gyarados.

This all brings up an interesting debate in which are the most common stallbreakers that stall should prepare for. If we assume stall is based on countering the most common things we have to find out what is the most common. Sure a mon itself may be common but is its stallbreaking set common.
If any1 would compile a dataset of the most common stallbreakers that would be so awesome.

 

[SketchUp]

If any1 would compile a dataset of the most common stallbreakers that would be so awesome.

Ignoring wallbreakers and only looking at stallbreakers

stallbreakers

Manaphy - 7.5%
| Rain Dance 40.145% |
3%

Talonflame - 12.6%
| Taunt 31.174% |
3.9%
Ignoring the fact that Bulk Up only has 12% usage, and Tauntwisp loses to Mega Sableye. However, Tauntwisp is a bigger threat if you don't run Sableye

Gengar - 6.5%
| Taunt 31.792% |
2.1%

Gardevoir - 5.3%
| Taunt 55.091% |
2.9%

Clefable - 19.2%
| Calm Mind 57.463% |
11%
Not 100% accurate because some of these are Unaware and most of the MG Clefables run Flamethrower or Thunder Wave, neither of these can break Chansey and Heatran.

Gothitele - 5.0%
| Trick 95.499% |
4.8%

Like I said not 100% accurate but it shows the most common stallbreakers.

However, stall also has to deal with other big threats: Mega Metagross, Mega Altaria, Zards, Kyurem-B for example. I think it's as important to prepare for these wallbreakers as to prepare for the stallbreakers listed above.

Edit: Mistake, I meant that Tauntwisp loses to Sableye

 

[p2]

Ignoring wallbreakers and only looking at stallbreakers

stallbreakers

Manaphy - 7.5%
| Rain Dance 40.145% |
3%

Talonflame - 12.6%
| Taunt 31.174% |
3.9%
Ignoring the fact that Bulk Up only has 12% usage, and Bulk Up loses to Mega Sableye. However, Tauntwisp is a bigger threat if you don't run Sableye

Gengar - 6.5%
| Taunt 31.792% |
2.1%

Gardevoir - 5.3%
| Taunt 55.091% |
2.9%

Clefable - 19.2%
| Calm Mind 57.463% |
11%
Not 100% accurate because some of these are Unaware and most of the MG Clefables run Flamethrower or Thunder Wave, neither of these can break Chansey and Heatran.

Gothitele - 5.0%
| Trick 95.499% |
4.8%

Like I said not 100% accurate but it shows the most common stallbreakers.

However, stall also has to deal with other big threats: Mega Metagross, Mega Altaria, Zards, Kyurem-B for example. I think it's as important to prepare for these wallbreakers as to prepare for the stallbreakers listed above.

How does Bulk Up Talonflame lose to Sableye? I thought it was just SD that can't beat Foul Play variants

 

[Lil YoshiXD]

SketchUp thank you very much
For people saying stall is dead those are some pretty low percentages.

Pretty much all variants of talonflame can be threatening band, bu, sd wisp, taunt

clefable para hax can beat chansey heatran. also burns from flamethrower bother chansey.

Really can't play around goth so kind of irrelavant when team building

hm which wallbreakers would you say are most relevant

 

[SketchUp]

SketchUp thank you very much
For people saying stall is dead those are some pretty low percentages.

Pretty much all variants of talonflame can be threatening band, bu, sd wisp, taunt

clefable para hax can beat chansey heatran. also burns from flamethrower bother chansey.

Really can't play around goth so kind of irrelavant when team building

hm which wallbreakers would you say are most relevant

Just the ones that are ranked high in the viability rankings, though some of them are easier to prepare for than others.
Mega Altaria, Kyurem-B, Thundurus and Charizard (both X and Y) are some of the most threatening wallbreakers. Mega Heracross, Crawdaunt and pokemon like that are more threatening but less common so I would focus more on beating stuff like zards and kyube than some uncommon Crawdaunt.

 

[Lil YoshiXD]

Just the ones that are ranked high in the viability rankings, though some of them are easier to prepare for than others.
Mega Altaria, Kyurem-B, Thundurus and Charizard (both X and Y) are some of the most threatening wallbreakers. Mega Heracross, Crawdaunt and pokemon like that are more threatening but less common so I would focus more on beating stuff like zards and kyube than some uncommon Crawdaunt.

hm so:
Mega Altaria
Kube
Thundurus
Zard X
Zard Y
other common stuff prob worth mentioning:
Mega Metagross, Bisharp, Serperior, breloom,Mega Gyarados, SD Gliscor, Stallbreaker Mew,

Anything that receives significant usage that threatens stall?

 

[Firebird Maniac]

I hope that, if it's not too much trouble, maybe we can put the ways to handle threats to stall in the thread as well. I see a couple of them like Tail Glow + Rain Dance Manaphy but it doesn't mention anywhere on how to beat it as stall.

Also, instead of listing the rising trends only, it'd be pretty helpful too to list some established threats to stall (like Kyurem-B) and ways to handle them.

Finally: to say that you use only passive damage to win is silly. Offense teams often have multiple win conditions (even those that support one dedicated sweeper), I don't see why stall can't do the same instead of banking on the one and only "outlast your opponent through passive damage". You might say that offensive sweepers do not offer defensive synergy while the rest of the team does not apply enough offensive pressure to complement it, but there are many bulky sweepers that do offer defensive utility. When something like that can make the team more resilient and consistent in winning, and yet you eschew it because you wanna go "full stall", it's no different from handicapping yourself with monotype teams or w/e.

 

[Shruggy]

I hope that, if it's not too much trouble, maybe we can put the ways to handle threats to stall in the thread as well. I see a couple of them like Tail Glow + Rain Dance Manaphy but it doesn't mention anywhere on how to beat it as stall.

Also, instead of listing the rising trends only, it'd be pretty helpful too to list some established threats to stall (like Kyurem-B) and ways to handle them.

Finally: to say that you use only passive damage to win is silly. Offense teams often have multiple win conditions (even those that support one dedicated sweeper), I don't see why stall can't do the same instead of banking on the one and only "outlast your opponent through passive damage". You might say that offensive sweepers do not offer defensive synergy while the rest of the team does not apply enough offensive pressure to complement it, but there are many bulky sweepers that do offer defensive utility. When something like that can make the team more resilient and consistent in winning, and yet you eschew it because you wanna go "full stall", it's no different from handicapping yourself with monotype teams or w/e.

Going to touch briefly on manaphy since it really is a stall killer no two ways about it.

Basically when you see it on the opposing team your #1 priority is to work out its set. Easiest to deal with (imo) is tg/3 attacks because you can simply toxic it and then wall it with your dedicated special or unaware wall (think chansey or spd clef). However just because its the easiest to deal with doesnt make it actually particularly easy as its still hard work especially if luck goes against you (crits/burns etc). Second easiest to deal with is the cm/rest/rd/scald set which has a relatively slow ramp up time but its more threatening over time. counters to this include cm clef, cm celebi and fast taunters (think tentacruel) and simply phasing it out is effective before it can get too many boosts. Dont try and go toe to toe with it is my advice unless you have a dedicated special wall counter as it is surprisingly bulky along with its rest/rain dance shenanigans.

Finally the dreaded tg/rd/2 attacks set. Basically this thing is a bitch since lets say it comes in on your skarmory or whatever and since you'll take like 50% damage from a non boosted scald obviously you have to switch out and let it set up. Now the real problem with this set is actually determining whether its 3 attacks or 2 attacks. Lets say you go out to your unaware clef to use TW on it and then all of a sudden it uses rain dance and proceeds to slowly kill your clefable with scald burns. Now you're basically fucked as not only is your clefable now not healthy enough to do its job even if you switch it out before it dies but you have not solved the problem of a +3 manaphy in the rain. You have to realise that your main chance of killing it is to wear it down slowly (you're playing stall not balance or HO) and thats very hard to do when it has leftovers + status immunity. The only thing that really i could say can deal with manaphy is M-Venu or M-Latias and thats assuming its not running the appropriate coverage move which makes it basically a guessing game where if you dont play it exactly right then you straight up lose.

Really one of the big problems for stall teams is finding out what set it is and even if you have a dedicated wall or two JUST for manaphy you can still lose due to it not running the set you have prepared for and quite frankly you cant have half your mons built to counter just one threat as then obviously you miss out on countering many other threats too. It really is one of the harder mons to counter currently along with other threats like the underrated LO diggersby with fire punch.

Anyway here is what i would personally use to try and counter or check the three sets (feel free to correct or criticize these)

1) tg/scald/icebeam/energy ball - M-Venu/cresselia/spd clef/chansey/AV slowking
2) tg/rd/2 attacks - First work out what 2 attacks then really just hope you have a mon that resists both attacks - M-Venu/M-Latias/chansey (shakey toss spam)
3) cm/rd/rest/scald - spd clef/phasers/taunters/cm celebi/AV slowking with D-tail

 

[SketchUp]

I wouldn't say TG 3 Atks is defeated by Slowking or Mega Venu, as Energy Ball or Psychic can take them down. Chansey and Unaware Clefable are full counters. Depending on the coverage you have Ferrothorn, Venusaur, Slowking, CM Slowbro, Mega Altaria, Celebi, Mega Latias, Chesnaught, Zapdos and Chansey. The same goes with TG RD Manaphy, which can win against Chansey, Mega Latias and Clefable, but still struggles with the others if it lacks the right coverage.

CM / RD / Rest is defeated by Amoonguss, CM Unaware Clefable, CM Slowbro, Gastrodon, Perish Song / NP Celebi, Taunt Mew.

Also, all sets can be trapped and locked into one attacking move by Trick Gothitelle. A +3 Scald Manaphy is still threatening but it won't break Mega Venusaur, Chansey, Mega Altaria or basically any wall that resist Scald.

 

[Analytic]

Alright so I'm gonna talk about why M-Altaria is used on Stall/Semi Stall as a support mon/bulky wincon. I think what distinguishes it from pokemon like Clefable and Chansey is that it's nowhere near passive as the latter. Clefable is not really passive but M-Altaria has a number of moves up its sleeve in CG+DD which allows it to function as a potential wincon. Chansey is just really passive and it's not doing anything other than Seismic Toss. The fact that it acts as a blanket check to pokemon like SubCM Keldeo, DD M-Gyarados and other mons in general make it a very good pokemon to use on stall overall.

 

[Snou]

Hey there!
To deal with stall we could mention Dugtrio which is a trapper that kills Heatran which is a common mon for stalls. Dugtrio also traps mons like Bulky Tyranitar and Jirachi so I think it deserves to be mentioned. You can also add Magneton and Magma Storm Heatran with Taunt(As trapper and stallbreaker).
I think you can add also the section "WallBreakers" to include mons such as Kyurem-B, Mega Heracross, Mega Medicham, Drum Azumarill, Char X etc.
If you want you can add one of my semistalls to the list of the teams

Hide

not scarf (Heatran) (F) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Earth Power
- Fire Blast
- Stone Edge
- Flash Cannon

not curse (Venusaur) (F) @ Venusaurite
Ability: Overgrow
EVs: 220 HP / 104 Def / 168 SpD / 16 Spe
Calm Nature
- Sludge Bomb
- Giga Drain
- Synthesis
- Sleep Powder

not cb (Hippowdon) (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Sand Force
EVs: 240 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD / 8 Spe
Impish Nature
- Earthquake
- Stealth Rock
- Toxic
- Slack Off

not specs (Zapdos) @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 192 HP / 252 Def / 32 SpD / 32 Spe
Bold Nature
- Volt Switch
- Heat Wave
- Roost
- Defog

not drum (Clefable) (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 216 HP / 252 Def / 32 SpD / 8 Spe
Bold Nature
- Thunder Wave
- Wish
- Protect
- Moonblast

not special (Crawdaunt) (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Adaptability
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Aqua Jet
- Crabhammer
- Knock Off
- Swords Dance

Also, Togekiss isn't mentioned for the hazard control threats despite empoleon being already there and you can add Mega Latias as phazer :)

 

[Jojobobo]

The stall core I've had the most difficulty against is the Sableye, Chansey, Unaware Clefable core - which I haven't seen specifically mentioned yet:

Hide

Sableye @ Sablenite
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Calm Mind
- Shadow Ball/Dark Pulse
- Recover
- Will-O-Wisp

Chansey @ Eviolite
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD
Bold Nature
- Toxic
- Soft-Boiled
- Seismic Toss
- Heal Bell

Clefable @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
- Moonblast
- Flamethrower
- Wish
- Protect

Sableye, particularly if you leave him un-mega-evolved for as long as possible, is a huge problem to offense with priority burn. I've seen too many players mega-evolve too early, when the reality is - at least on a first turn basis as most people like Sableye as a lead - you don't need to as no good player is going to chance handing momentum to you (though this does come with the price of not being able to switch in and bounce back a SR later). Most SR users, apart from SR Clefable who is far from common, really don't want a burn so he forces them out nicely.

Chansey can soak any special fairy hit aimed at Sableye, and can cleric and toxic stall in return. If you get statused, a simple switch out is easy enough to cure it. Most very strong physical attackers or fighting types which Chansey doesn't like, are easily covered by Sableye - and Sableye can take Knock Offs too. These two alone are the basis of a fairly solid stall core.

Then you add in Clefable, who can facilitate switches by wish passing and alongside Sableye is good at handling boosted physical sweepers. Plus it hard counters Mega Lopunny and CM Keldeo easily, which Sableye and Chansey don't appreciate. Flamethrower catches steels on the switch, where as Moonblast is a pretty hard hitting STAB for a stallmon.

There's very little that can easily deal with this core without issue against a player that knows when to use switches effectively, which most stall players with an eye to disassemble offense teams do extremely well.

That said, I think one of the biggest threats to stall currently, and one of the things brought by ORAS which SketchUp mentioned is Serperior. Serperior can bust through Chansey so long as it has at least Miracle Seed and it has coverage in Taunt, Knock Off and Glare to be a severe problem to stall. There's no Unaware user that likes to handle it, as most sharp offense boosting in the meta is physical (few Nasty Plot users) and things like Sableye can't handle the freight train Serperior becomes by using Leaf Storm. Though Heatran can handle it, people wanting to really support Serp can use Dugtrio to cover Heatran. Further, if you do use Glare you can paralyse Heatran on the switch - meaning they have to settle for their paralysis or waste turns trying to cleric. It really is horrendous for teams to deal with, not just stall. The set:

Hide

Serperior @ Miracle Seed
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Leaf Storm
- Dragon Pulse
- Hidden Power Fire
- Glare/Taunt/Knock Off

 

[QueenOfHax]

Serperior is a complete joke to deal with if you run Amoonguss, who is already an excellent addition to stall as it deals with a plethora of threats such as Keldeo and Mega Diancie. The biggest threats to stall now that Lando-I is gone are unquestionably Kyurem-B and Mega Gardevoir.

 

[Jojobobo]

I think "complete joke" is a bit of a stretch, especially with coverage like Glare and Knock Off in toe.

Looking at non-LO, non-Miracle Seed, non-Expert Belt Serp against the standard Leftovers Amoonguss (252 HP, 120 SpD) on minimum rolls:

8.7% from Leaf Storm on the switch, then 44.4% from the next +2 HP Fire as it Clear Smogs, then 22.2% from the next HP Fire (Serp can take 2 Clear Smogs) then 22.2% from the next you get...

8.7 + 44.4 + 22.2 + 22.2 - 25 (4 turns Leftovers) = 72.5% health.

With SR that's 85% bare minimum.

If we're talking a Sludge Bomb set, it's worse as though it's a 2HKO you have one less turn of Leftovers, meaning that with SR it's 91.25% on the bare minimum rolls. Further, if Serp has lefties, Amoonguss doesn't always hit the 3HKO:

Hide

0 SpA Amoonguss Clear Smog vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Serperior: 102-120 (35 - 41.2%) -- 54.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

With LO, Serp is very likely to win against the Clear Smog set and a sure thing barring crits to win against the Sludge Bomb set.

Amoonguss is a shaky check at best (again, bare in mind I've just been looking at the minimum rolls here) and it's not able to contain every Serperior set going from full health. And sure, you can up SDef to deal with Serp but then it becomes a lot less viable as a physical wall. As I mentioned, SpDef Heatran is really the main check to Serp.

 

[Shruggy]

The stall core I've had the most difficulty against is the Sableye, Chansey, Unaware Clefable core - which I haven't seen specifically mentioned yet:

Hide

Sableye @ Sablenite
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Calm Mind
- Shadow Ball/Dark Pulse
- Recover
- Will-O-Wisp

Chansey @ Eviolite
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD
Bold Nature
- Toxic
- Soft-Boiled
- Seismic Toss
- Heal Bell

Clefable @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
- Moonblast
- Flamethrower
- Wish
- Protect

Sableye, particularly if you leave him un-mega-evolved for as long as possible, is a huge problem to offense with priority burn. I've seen too many players mega-evolve too early, when the reality is - at least on a first turn basis as most people like Sableye as a lead - you don't need to as no good player is going to chance handing momentum to you (though this does come with the price of not being able to switch in and bounce back a SR later). Most SR users, apart from SR Clefable who is far from common, really don't want a burn so he forces them out nicely.

Chansey can soak any special fairy hit aimed at Sableye, and can cleric and toxic stall in return. If you get statused, a simple switch out is easy enough to cure it. Most very strong physical attackers or fighting types which Chansey doesn't like, are easily covered by Sableye - and Sableye can take Knock Offs too. These two alone are the basis of a fairly solid stall core.

Then you add in Clefable, who can facilitate switches by wish passing and alongside Sableye is good at handling boosted physical sweepers. Plus it hard counters Mega Lopunny and CM Keldeo easily, which Sableye and Chansey don't appreciate. Flamethrower catches steels on the switch, where as Moonblast is a pretty hard hitting STAB for a stallmon.

There's very little that can easily deal with this core without issue against a player that knows when to use switches effectively, which most stall players with an eye to disassemble offense teams do extremely well.

That said, I think one of the biggest threats to stall currently, and one of the things brought by ORAS which SketchUp mentioned is Serperior. Serperior can bust through Chansey so long as it has at least Miracle Seed and it has coverage in Taunt, Knock Off and Glare to be a severe problem to stall. There's no Unaware user that likes to handle it, as most sharp offense boosting in the meta is physical (few Nasty Plot users) and things like Sableye can't handle the freight train Serperior becomes by using Leaf Storm. Though Heatran can handle it, people wanting to really support Serp can use Dugtrio to cover Heatran. Further, if you do use Glare you can paralyse Heatran on the switch - meaning they have to settle for their paralysis or waste turns trying to cleric. It really is horrendous for teams to deal with, not just stall. The set:

Hide

Serperior @ Miracle Seed
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Leaf Storm
- Dragon Pulse
- Hidden Power Fire
- Glare/Taunt/Knock Off

Yup i definetly agree with you, Taunt Serperior in particular is a real pain to deal with. Glare is managable and i've not yet seen a knock off version so i cant testify to its effectiveness. I also dont generally see miracle seed too often, mostly life orb or lefties but thats a viable option definetly.

How i deal with it is fairly straightforward, when it switches in vs a mon like slowbro i switch out to a steel mon that can easily tank a leaf storm (say skarmory or jirachi or whatever) Then 9 times out of ten they will hp fire because they are scared of either a whirlwind or a u-turn which will either send it away or deal heavy damage to it. At this point i switch in Clefable to take hp fire (10% damage) and from this point on i can stall it out of PP baring crits (more likely to run out of PP before i get crit). To work out the set i will protect on the first turn of Clefable being in which will either reveal the taunt or waste another pp of leafstorm. If it is taunt then i will switch out to Chansey on the re-taunt next turn and proceed to 3 hit with Seismic toss. The key thing to remember is it only has 8 PP so if you can get them to use 4-5 and they havent got anything from it they may well switch out to save the last 3 and give you a bit of breathing room.

No this is not a particularly great strategy as it requires me basically making better plays than the opponent rather than having an actual plan of action to deal with it but like you said its actually really hard for stall to deal with when it runs taunt. Fortunately the fact that stall is not so popular actually works for stall currently as there are not many serperiors running taunt over glare/synthesis/giga and miracle seed is also not something i've seen much of over life orb (easier to kill with recoil damage) or lefties which clefable/chansey can stall out better.

The only other option i can think of is a SpD Zapdos which is a bit unorthodox but can work

252 SpA Miracle Seed Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Zapdos: 68-81 (17.7 - 21%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Miracle Seed Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Zapdos: 136-161 (35.4 - 41.9%) -- 84.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+4 252 SpA Miracle Seed Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Zapdos: 204-240 (53.1 - 62.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Minimum rolls is still 106% so you need a lot of luck to survive and kill it but can be done.

68 SpA Zapdos Heat Wave vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Serperior: 182-216 (62.5 - 74.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Even then its not really a great idea but at the very least will tank 3 hits and deal enough damage to guarantee a chansey revenge kill i suppose.

 

[TURBODERP]

Sap Sipper Azumarill (forgot the exact EVs, but its Scald/Toxic/RestTalk) is actually a cool defensive set that hard counters Serperior and has other uses as well-counters LO Latias, and hard checks most Charizards (both forms, but sadly not the SD set). Also lets you wall Ferrothorn quite nicely.

 

[p2]

That's apparently Hoopa available now
http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/w...on_distributions_in_Generation_VI#Movie_Hoopa
http://www.pokemon-movie.jp/topics/filmPreview.php

So how does Stall plan to keep up with this monster?

 

[Lil YoshiXD]

That's apparently Hoopa available now
http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/List_of_local_event_Pokémon_distributions_in_Generation_VI#Movie_Hoopa
http://www.pokemon-movie.jp/topics/filmPreview.php

So how does Stall plan to keep up with this monster?

wait a bit for it to get banned, use more offensive semi stall, try and surprise it with bug moves.

 

[yuruuu]

well it really depends on what coverage moves are most common on it. it'll likely get banned, but there are mons that are able to check it like torn-t and spdef mandi.

 

[jbtc10]

I think "complete joke" is a bit of a stretch, especially with coverage like Glare and Knock Off in toe.

Looking at non-LO, non-Miracle Seed, non-Expert Belt Serp against the standard Leftovers Amoonguss (252 HP, 120 SpD) on minimum rolls:

8.7% from Leaf Storm on the switch, then 44.4% from the next +2 HP Fire as it Clear Smogs, then 22.2% from the next HP Fire (Serp can take 2 Clear Smogs) then 22.2% from the next you get...

8.7 + 44.4 + 22.2 + 22.2 - 25 (4 turns Leftovers) = 72.5% health.

With SR that's 85% bare minimum.

If we're talking a Sludge Bomb set, it's worse as though it's a 2HKO you have one less turn of Leftovers, meaning that with SR it's 91.25% on the bare minimum rolls. Further, if Serp has lefties, Amoonguss doesn't always hit the 3HKO:

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0 SpA Amoonguss Clear Smog vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Serperior: 102-120 (35 - 41.2%) -- 54.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

With LO, Serp is very likely to win against the Clear Smog set and a sure thing barring crits to win against the Sludge Bomb set.

Amoonguss is a shaky check at best (again, bare in mind I've just been looking at the minimum rolls here) and it's not able to contain every Serperior set going from full health. And sure, you can up SDef to deal with Serp but then it becomes a lot less viable as a physical wall. As I mentioned, SpDef Heatran is really the main check to Serp.

You can give Amoongus Synthesis to let it beat Serp without having to compromise your EV spread. Black Sludge > Lefties too because it allows you to better counter all variants of Rotom-W including Choiced ones carrying Trick (although much rarer now), among other things that might Trick you.

 

[Jojobobo]

You can give Amoongus Synthesis to let it beat Serp without having to compromise your EV spread. Black Sludge > Lefties too because it allows you to better counter all variants of Rotom-W including Choiced ones carrying Trick (although much rarer now), among other things that might Trick you.

Synthesis really means you have 4MSS though, as you'll want Spore, a poison move and Giga Drain - leaving no room for HP Fire/Foul Play coverage. It also feels a bit like dead weight on a pokemon with Regenerator in the first place.

Of course Black Sludge is better than Leftovers, really I was just trying to illustrate the recovery which amounts to the same thing.

 

[jbtc10]

Giga Drain and Clear Smog are both standard on Amoong and a little dubious not to use, but the last 2 slots can be any of HP Fire, Spore, Foul Play and Synthesis without it being too much of a big deal. HP Fire is a bit overrated in my experience because it still doesn't do enough to Mega Scizor to prevent it from setting up on you, as it can just keep alternating between SD and Roost spam and then sweep:

0 SpA Amoonguss Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 176 SpD Mega Scizor: 132-156 (38.4 - 45.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

It's also only a 4HKO after lefties (not factoring in Protect) against Ferro, who is also a Pokemon that stall doesn't really worry about much due to the existence of Mega Sableye, as well as Ferro only being an annoyance and not an actual threat. Outside of hitting a couple of things that are 4x weak to it (and even those cases aren't that profitable), HP Fire is pretty much useless and is therefore a pretty safe thing to drop for Synthesis which does definitely give Amoongus more general longevity (Regen never stopped Slowbro from running Slack Off) and allows you to better counter Serp which is a mandatory thing for stall. Then you've still got that slot for either Spore, Foul Play or HP Fire, so it's not like it cripples Amoong or anything.

 

[Jojobobo]

I guess it depends what you're looking for it to do, admittedly HP Fire seems like a weak option but Foul Play is still useful in many instances.