Excellent post. It's startling how many people both adamantly support the banning of Drizzle + SS and are completely disenchanted with the idea of even discussing a stealth rock ban, in both cases simply because they're resistant to change.
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Stealth Rock Discussion
- Thread starter cornYBird
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fine.. unban it... see for urself how every single team u will meet will be rain based... see how manaphy is completely broken... I wish they could unban it for just a little while to shut ppl up with supporting ss/hydration and drizzle...
quite frankly if sr was banned it wouldnt affect my game personally that much... but yea... ban it so then ppl can complain about something else... no matter what gets banned, someone always will have an arguement for how broken something else is... thats not just for pokemon, but most competitive games in general
Since we are @ it... ban exadrill on ss teams... and unban blaziken for ou...i just wanna see the chaos that ensues...
Whenever I think about this, it gives me headaches.
Stealth Rock is (as others have said) without a doubt the best move in the game. On average (provided it is set up reasonably early in the match) it will do more damage for one turn of set-up than any other one-turn move in the game. This holds true even if you don't have much of a SR weakness on your team; so, to an extent, banning SR isn't just about what gets specifically nerfed by it - over the duration of an entire battle, it will have screwed plenty of stuff over. Don't forget all those 'mons that rely on that damage to get a KO.
So, what do we have to counter the best move in the metagame? That's right, we counter it with the worst move in the metagame - Rapid Spin (I know you're probably going to say "bubble's worse or something, but of moves actually used in the metagame, RS easily takes this title). No, you don't have to have a spinner; but you're life is made easier if you do. No, you don't have to set up SR for yourself, but again, it's easier for you if you do. I won't lie; I haven't been here long, and maybe my ideas of what 'overcentralised' looks like are wrong, but I feel that when it is always to your advantage to either have or be able to counter one certain move, then that move is 'overcentralised'.
It's a thorny issue, but it's interesting hearing what people have to say about it.
Stealth Rock is (as others have said) without a doubt the best move in the game. On average (provided it is set up reasonably early in the match) it will do more damage for one turn of set-up than any other one-turn move in the game. This holds true even if you don't have much of a SR weakness on your team; so, to an extent, banning SR isn't just about what gets specifically nerfed by it - over the duration of an entire battle, it will have screwed plenty of stuff over. Don't forget all those 'mons that rely on that damage to get a KO.
So, what do we have to counter the best move in the metagame? That's right, we counter it with the worst move in the metagame - Rapid Spin (I know you're probably going to say "bubble's worse or something, but of moves actually used in the metagame, RS easily takes this title). No, you don't have to have a spinner; but you're life is made easier if you do. No, you don't have to set up SR for yourself, but again, it's easier for you if you do. I won't lie; I haven't been here long, and maybe my ideas of what 'overcentralised' looks like are wrong, but I feel that when it is always to your advantage to either have or be able to counter one certain move, then that move is 'overcentralised'.
It's a thorny issue, but it's interesting hearing what people have to say about it.
If you don't know why SR is overcentralizing,I suggest you read the on site analysis and see how many times you see the phrase "Its OHKO with Rocks up" or "Can survive two hits if Rocks aren't up."Stealth Rock has changed how countering works at all.Most guys can't live SR plus 2 attacks from the Pokemon they are meant to counter.That is what has helped lead to the aggressive Metagame we have.
SR is so overcentralizing that certain Pokemon were designed just to get Rocks up and prevent your opponents.People were willing to lose 1/6 of their team just to get Rocks up early.Doesn't that sound rediculous to you?
The difference between Spikes and SR is the amount of damage compared to the ease of setting up that damage.I will use Galvantula as an example.If you have 1 layer of Spikes (1 turn of set up) my Galvantula will take 12% damage.If you have SR (1 turn of set up) my Galvantula takes 25% damage.Big difference right?You need 3 layers of Spikes (3 turns of set up) to equal that damage.Again, a big difference in turn investment.
Volcarona is an exception and not the rule when it comes to Stealth Rock weak Pokemon in OU.Only Ninjask and Ho-oh are 4x weak to rock and OU or higher.Small list isn't it when compared to the number of 4x weak Ice Pokemon isn't it?
How is switching to stall Life Orb a bad thing without SR?My team is still taking damage and being worn down by your attacks.It actually brings prediction skills into the mix more than the mind set of "Lets just attack.SR will help regardless what they switch in."
Its comical to me that you think everybody who has an argument against Stealth Rock is some kind of newb or doesn't have any skill.You think people don't know how to get around SR?How to keep it off the field?How to not make your team really weak to it?People can have a complaint against this move without being bad at the game.
Also why is everyone hung up on Charizard?It is not the only Pokemon who is hurt by SR.Zapdos and others are also hurt by SR.Lets make a parallel argument.In the Abilities Combination Bans thread, people keep bringing up Luvdisc in the Swift Swim+Drizzle Ban.It is meant as an example of the damage that was inflicted by the ban.Most have even said Luvdisc is just a poster child of the damage.Well,Charizard is the face of the "Wrecked by SR" club.Its a little bit disturbing to me people can argue about a combination ban that affects 19 Pokemon but you try to discuss a move that has a negative effect on 102 Pokemon and we're the noobs.Lets restate that.ONE HUNDRED TWO Pokemon are negatively effected by this one move while only NINETEEN are affected by Alderon's Proposal.Should I start going over to that thread and start going "BAWL you can't use your Luvdisc.Just get good at this game newb!"
@ Mario With Lasers,I'll indulge that inquiry.Almost all ghosts have Will-O-Wisp.That makes your Excadrill useless.Or how about Desinty Bond?Or T-Wave on any non Excadrill/Starmie/Donphan/Claydol spinner?Ghosts can do plenty especially with a free switch.
Also, Espeon and Xatu are not exactly the bulkiest Pokemon around.So lets see you switch one in on Metagross to stop Rocks just to get hit with Meteor Mash.Your guy just died/got crippled.There defenses won't let them stop any aggressive SR user without severe risk.Not to mention they know you have them thanks to Team Preview and are more likely to predict their switch in.These are 2 Pokemon trying to take on a very varied group of SR users.They just won't always come out on top.
@TrueVillany,You are missing the point.Most people agree that Drizzle+Swift Swim ban is a good idea.The point is,people will argue it for the sake of fairness to a Pokemon like Luvdisc but the same people will not argue SR for the sake of a Pokemon like Articuno.Thats what they are saying.I'm also fairly certain SR is seen even more than Drizzle.
Overcentralization is a symptom of many broken pokemon/abilities/whatever, but it is neither the cause nor an indicator of when something is broken. Brokenness causes people to use something a lot to consistently, which causes overcentralization, but many other things are overcentralized without being broken. Being broken allows less skilled players to consistently win against those with more skill.
Fair enough, but take into account you're the one switching in on Excadrill. Which means giving it a turn to Swords Dance instead. Unless you're Eviolite Dusclops or a ridiculously defensive Dusknoir/Cofagrigus, you're going to suffer a really horrible death by then. My point isn't to play theorymon here, what I mean is that Rapid Spinning and avoiding Stealth Rock isn't impossible, and doesn't make you bend backwards either. You may kill the SR user before it sets up, counter it with Magic Coat/Bounce, let it set up and then Rapid Spin it out (and possibly killing/crippling their Ghost in the process, or before it), or... not using 4x weak pokémon. Do note I'm not saying you can only use Steelix and Lucario but, if you're going to use rock-weak pokémon, then you do have to plan your team better, and know how to manage your switch-ins better. Zapdos takes 25% damage every time it switches in but... it's Zapdos. If you're going to use Yanmega, then don't make it have to switch out later, man, use Specs Tinted Lens or a lead set and wreck shit, you don't need to sweep with it, you need to kill 6 pokémon with your 6 pokémon, by any means necessary.
Is Stealth Rock a good move? Yes. Is it one of the best moves in the game? Yes. Could we say it is THE move? Possibly. But being the best doesn't mean it's broken (see: Scizor in DPPt), means it's metagame-defining, like other relevant elements present in the metagame (Tyranitar's Sandstream, Scizor, Blissey, Politoed's Drizzle, Tyranitar's Pursuit, Volcarona, Thundurus, Prankster, Ferrothorn, Tyranitar, Ninetales's Drought, Reuniclus, Specs Tyranitar...). People adapted to the lead metagame in late DPPt and SR stopped being set up at turn 1, which diminished its efficiency, as while you may get a free turn to set up SR in turn 10 or 20 or whatever, you'll do less residual damage as a whole and may lose a valuable turn to do anything else and thus, lose momentum. Obviously SR still is a valuable move nowadays, but the fact suicidal leads died off thanks to Team Preview and we got a couple more ways to deal with it, besides the fewer opportunities to set it up to begin with, mean people are okay with it, besides certain pokémon taking too much damage in an "unfair" way.
...Lol that's a really good point.
Can people stop complaining about other bans, there are apporaite threads for that.
I really wish there was a poll for this, so we could see how many people actually agree with this, becuase if its a signifigant portoin we might have to do some suspect testing.
Overall I feel that magic coat, magic bounce, and team preview pretty much causes the death of many set up leads. Stealth rocks might of been debatable last genation, but it seriously got nerfed this gen. Some decent players have actually made teams without having a rapid spinner or setup pokemon.
I really wish there was a poll for this, so we could see how many people actually agree with this, becuase if its a signifigant portoin we might have to do some suspect testing.
Overall I feel that magic coat, magic bounce, and team preview pretty much causes the death of many set up leads. Stealth rocks might of been debatable last genation, but it seriously got nerfed this gen. Some decent players have actually made teams without having a rapid spinner or setup pokemon.
I'm sorry, what? Since when was Excadrill affected by TWave?Dragon Rider said:
I specifically stated NON Excadrill/Claydol/Starmie/Donphan spinners.Meaning they aren't effected by it.The ghost still got in free though.
I'll agree with you Mario.Their are definite risks to switching a ghost into an offensive spinner.I'll also agree that the whole "Theorymon" could go in a ton of directions so we'll drop that.
I agree with you that SR is just another metagame factor.The list you provided definently encompasses a lot of metagame threats.I think SR is kind of using that to its advantage though.People have spent so much time playing against it and adjusting to its presence that its hard to convince them to look at its potential brokeness.Its become a part of the game and even though it heavily influences outcomes, its hard to test it.
If Stealth Rock were a Pokemon, it would be way easier to judge its power and test it.Since its not, its noticable impact isn't so obvious.When a Pokemon switches in and takes say 85% or more from a Latios Draco Meteor, the obvious reaction is that was a possibly overpowered attack.However, 25% from a switch doesn't seem so bad.Kind of an in the shadows type of power.
Well after sifting through a few pages of bickering and at times god awful grammar, I wish to stake my claim...
A few people anti SR don't seem to care about Spikes. Some even compare it to rocks and say 'SEE? ROCKS ARE MUCH WORSE!!!'. Well you get the right poke and 3 sets are real easy to set up. Then, to hell with your weaknesses, all your team are coming in with a 1/4 less health (unless they float). That's just as painful no? Secondly, opponents rocks can be used to your advantage. You can play a 'usual' spinner and hit their spin blocker on the switch. It seems some people don't think of strategy from the other side of the rocks...
Also, as a stall player I'd lose a fair amount of potency in a defensive team. Rocks help make the opponent second guess their switches and build up damage that defensive pokemon can't really rack up. Before you say 'that's what Toxic is for', without rocks they'll be switching willy-nilly to reset the bad poison counter.
And yes, SR nerfs some pokes true. But, and this has kinda been said before, you get rid of rocks and it WILL NOT necessarily be those nerfed pokes that thrive. All of a sudden Choice pokemon will have no penalty for switching in and out and the likes of Volcarona, an already viable poke, will just murder people from full health, to name a few threats.
Maybe I'm just resistant to change or maybe I just like pointed stones a lot, but getting rid of SR because it messes with your teams/certain pokes or whatever will not make everything all sugar and rainbows. You'll just expose something that'll be seen as just as bad as SR, or possibly even worse.
A few people anti SR don't seem to care about Spikes. Some even compare it to rocks and say 'SEE? ROCKS ARE MUCH WORSE!!!'. Well you get the right poke and 3 sets are real easy to set up. Then, to hell with your weaknesses, all your team are coming in with a 1/4 less health (unless they float). That's just as painful no? Secondly, opponents rocks can be used to your advantage. You can play a 'usual' spinner and hit their spin blocker on the switch. It seems some people don't think of strategy from the other side of the rocks...
Also, as a stall player I'd lose a fair amount of potency in a defensive team. Rocks help make the opponent second guess their switches and build up damage that defensive pokemon can't really rack up. Before you say 'that's what Toxic is for', without rocks they'll be switching willy-nilly to reset the bad poison counter.
And yes, SR nerfs some pokes true. But, and this has kinda been said before, you get rid of rocks and it WILL NOT necessarily be those nerfed pokes that thrive. All of a sudden Choice pokemon will have no penalty for switching in and out and the likes of Volcarona, an already viable poke, will just murder people from full health, to name a few threats.
Maybe I'm just resistant to change or maybe I just like pointed stones a lot, but getting rid of SR because it messes with your teams/certain pokes or whatever will not make everything all sugar and rainbows. You'll just expose something that'll be seen as just as bad as SR, or possibly even worse.
The problem with SR is that it's completely taken over the meta-game, and yet its counter Rapid Spin is available to 19 or so fully evolved pokemon, and only a handful of those are useful. So you see lots and lots of Starmies, Hitmontops, Excadrills, Donphans, and Claydols (actually to be fair, I haven't seen anyone but me use a Claydol, though he works fairly well).
So we're pigeonholed into using some kind of Rapid Spinner. And then we also figure that we should use SR too, so we get a SR inducer. And then we want to make sure that they can't Rapid Spin our SR away, and so we get a Spin Blocker. And then we also get a Taunt/Magic Coat lead to prevent SR in the first place...
One move has spawned 4 entire roles. If that's not overcentralizing, I don't know what is. Now, you can get away with not having all 4 of those, or even with having none. But then you're at a distinct disadvantage, especially if you run anything that's weak to SR at all.
2HKOing something like Volcarona or Yanmega with 2 0 BP moves (SR and Whirlwind/Roar) is a bit ridiculous, I think.
As for Spikes, Flying and Levitating pokemon are immune, and it requires a lot more setup to get the full bonus (3 sets instead of 1). It's not nearly as crippling as SR and it's easier to counter.
alphatron
Volt turn in every tier! I'm in despair!
I don't think stealth rock should be judged by people sacrificing a pokemon just to get it up. Suicide lead aerodactyl is a lousy pokemon and facing the people who use that crap is enjoyable since it puts them at -1 for absolutely nothing. (Kill the pokemon with priority after he taunts me or use rapid spin the same turn he SRs at 1%).
If you want to talk about how good stealth rock is, mention the pokemon who become better just by having it in their moveset. Swampert for instance.
If you want to talk about how good stealth rock is, mention the pokemon who become better just by having it in their moveset. Swampert for instance.
I'm telling you spikes are just as deadly, little effort for 3 sets with the right support and most fliers (yeah maybe not all) can be covered with one or two pokes.
I will agree it stings a lot. But I still maintain dropping SR will just unleash more things that'll murder you...it's the lesser of two evils imo
@ dragonrider
Good sir I am not missing the point... I understand some people can say why ban drizzle but in the same accord not ban sr? I also understand that drizzle only affects a small amount of pokes compared to SR. Please go read the drizzle ss thread before you make a comment like that... It is not truly a comparable arguement. although both moves change the metagame, the entire metagame switch to ss teams is not the same as using sr. And I just used charizard and volcarona as examples because in my experience they are the most talked about pokemon being drastically affected by SR. I acknowledge there are alot of pokes affected by it.
Also I am not saying that people havent come up with strategies to get around it. On the contrary... most players who realize they keep losing to some aspect of the game usually tweak their team to be less vulnerable to it. Which is why it is not usually those players complaining about it.
Most people's arguement is "look how many pokemon i cant use or dont want to use just because of SR". I just disagree with that logic. I use the pokemon I want to use whether eing SR weak or not I just use a strategy and hope for the best. Your not going to win every game you play no matter how good you are. Sometimes your @ a disadvantage just based on your team make up vs your opponents. IF you find yourself constantly losing because of one factor, most good players devise a strategy to get around it..
@ Gneiss
Hey lets battle sometime I will put my money where my mouth is... Trust me u dont need SR or rapid spin or spin blockers. As Cbleach put it... you can actually be put in a worse situation by putting up SR. And no... I am not talking about using some specific move to counter/remove it... AND you can use pokemon who have a few weaknesses to it...
Ofcourse most of the time it does put u @ an advantage but its not absolutely necessary to be successful...
@ cbleach
Spikes isnt really comparable as because as you said it takes 3 turns of set up and is avoided by flying/levitating pokemon... I agree with u... it rapes, but most people are concerned with the ease of setting up with one move and the sheer number of pokemon who learn sr vs who learn spikes. Not to mention focus sashes pretty much need to be used in the lead spot because sr negates switching into it. And I could understand ur logic in regards to wanting sr on ur stall team. Quite frankly I am not a stall guy and dont really like the style, but what i dislike more is a ridiculously large amount of switches as well... there have been battles on stall teams that have lasted literally for hours back in gen 4 because people can switch in and out so freely. And maybe I am wrong for that.... but thats just my preference.
Good sir I am not missing the point... I understand some people can say why ban drizzle but in the same accord not ban sr? I also understand that drizzle only affects a small amount of pokes compared to SR. Please go read the drizzle ss thread before you make a comment like that... It is not truly a comparable arguement. although both moves change the metagame, the entire metagame switch to ss teams is not the same as using sr. And I just used charizard and volcarona as examples because in my experience they are the most talked about pokemon being drastically affected by SR. I acknowledge there are alot of pokes affected by it.
Also I am not saying that people havent come up with strategies to get around it. On the contrary... most players who realize they keep losing to some aspect of the game usually tweak their team to be less vulnerable to it. Which is why it is not usually those players complaining about it.
Most people's arguement is "look how many pokemon i cant use or dont want to use just because of SR". I just disagree with that logic. I use the pokemon I want to use whether eing SR weak or not I just use a strategy and hope for the best. Your not going to win every game you play no matter how good you are. Sometimes your @ a disadvantage just based on your team make up vs your opponents. IF you find yourself constantly losing because of one factor, most good players devise a strategy to get around it..
@ Gneiss
Hey lets battle sometime I will put my money where my mouth is... Trust me u dont need SR or rapid spin or spin blockers. As Cbleach put it... you can actually be put in a worse situation by putting up SR. And no... I am not talking about using some specific move to counter/remove it... AND you can use pokemon who have a few weaknesses to it...
Ofcourse most of the time it does put u @ an advantage but its not absolutely necessary to be successful...
@ cbleach
Spikes isnt really comparable as because as you said it takes 3 turns of set up and is avoided by flying/levitating pokemon... I agree with u... it rapes, but most people are concerned with the ease of setting up with one move and the sheer number of pokemon who learn sr vs who learn spikes. Not to mention focus sashes pretty much need to be used in the lead spot because sr negates switching into it. And I could understand ur logic in regards to wanting sr on ur stall team. Quite frankly I am not a stall guy and dont really like the style, but what i dislike more is a ridiculously large amount of switches as well... there have been battles on stall teams that have lasted literally for hours back in gen 4 because people can switch in and out so freely. And maybe I am wrong for that.... but thats just my preference.
@truevillany
It's not that SR means that you can't use certain pokemon. You can use whoever you want. However, SR creates a competitive environment where certain pokemon are MUCH less viable based only on their typing. This is centralization, plain and simple. Now, I won't argue that SR is broken, because it's not. However, should we encourage a competitive environment where a single battle condition (that of SR being active) is such a huge factor?
Also, if SR were to be banned, how would that effect SR users? Would they actually be more effective with the extra moveslot? I dunno, I think a suspect test of SR would be interesting as all get out, but I might be getting ahead of myself.
It's not that SR means that you can't use certain pokemon. You can use whoever you want. However, SR creates a competitive environment where certain pokemon are MUCH less viable based only on their typing. This is centralization, plain and simple. Now, I won't argue that SR is broken, because it's not. However, should we encourage a competitive environment where a single battle condition (that of SR being active) is such a huge factor?
Also, if SR were to be banned, how would that effect SR users? Would they actually be more effective with the extra moveslot? I dunno, I think a suspect test of SR would be interesting as all get out, but I might be getting ahead of myself.
Or, an entire list of Fightning types, since SR cripples two of four types that resists their STAB.
Yeah I realize that, I said it like, 3 separate times. You don't NEED SR or Rapid Spin or a Spin Blocker. But in the metagame already saturated with SR, you're at a fairly large advantage with one or more of those roles filled. Of course, the advantage depends on what team you're facing and what pokemon you use; a team full of bug/flying and fire/flying is gonna get destroyed without Rapid Spin, for example, while a team that resists it wont be that big a deal.
So yeah, you can be successful without any of that stuff, but that success does depend on the makeup of your opponents team. If I battled you, you'd probably win without any of the roles mentioned above, because I admit that I'm not exactly an awesome player (though I've had my moments). But in most cases, SR and a Rapid Spinner at least give a pretty sizable advantage.
As for the Spikes thing mentioned above, I disagree that it's anywhere as big a deal as SR. SR takes one turn of set up and can deal a max of 50% damage depending on type and hits everything (though again, it depends on type). It also has a very large distribution (in Gen 4, admittedly, so it does have a limitation on movesets). Whereas Spikes takes 3 turns to set up for a max of 25% damage (regardless of type), is avoided Flying types and Levitaters, and its distribution is much smaller than SR. I think Spike usage would definitely go up if SR is banned, but I think it's a lot more manageable (you have a pretty good chance of wrecking a lead before they set up 3 sets of Spikes, either by killing them or by using Taunt or something, while SR only needs to be used once for full effect). I don't think they're comparable.
What about Toxic Spikes? It doesn't do any initial damage like the aforementioned, but it rather works on poisoning the opponent for damage over time.
I wasn't really sure what to say about Toxic Spikes, cause to be honest, I've rarely seen em.
They're a pain in the butt when the other guy gets two layers up, though unlike Spikes and SR, they only penalize each pokemon once when they switch, as opposed to every time you switch them in.
If SR is removed, I wonder if Spikes and Toxic Spikes would be enough to still call for a Rapid Spinner in most situations anyway.
Toxic Spikes doesn't always require a rapid spin to remove, considering a poison type absorbs.
But spikes probably still warrants a spinner.
EDIT: Tentacruel.
That's true, I forgot that poison types absorb Toxic Spikes.
I think this ongoing argument is hilarious. It really shows the amazing amount of Smogon-centric groupthink in the community.
The reason that Stealth Rock is so powerful is because it wasn't created to be balanced for the archaic 6v6 singles game that Smogon plays. It was created with the assumption that competitive matches would be played with the Flat Battle rules, where you only choose three of your team's six Pokemon to participate in a battle. Although it's only this latest generation that these rules have actually been programmed into the portable games, they've been the norm on the console (Stadium) games for a very long time.
Notice how all the national/world tournaments are 4v4 Doubles rather than 6v6 Doubles? Yeah. If they for some reason decided to return to Singles, it'd be 3v3 singles. Those are the official rules now. Smogon just won't keep up with the times.
EDIT: ninja'd by Sprocket.
The reason that Stealth Rock is so powerful is because it wasn't created to be balanced for the archaic 6v6 singles game that Smogon plays. It was created with the assumption that competitive matches would be played with the Flat Battle rules, where you only choose three of your team's six Pokemon to participate in a battle. Although it's only this latest generation that these rules have actually been programmed into the portable games, they've been the norm on the console (Stadium) games for a very long time.
Notice how all the national/world tournaments are 4v4 Doubles rather than 6v6 Doubles? Yeah. If they for some reason decided to return to Singles, it'd be 3v3 singles. Those are the official rules now. Smogon just won't keep up with the times.
EDIT: ninja'd by Sprocket.
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