I wasn't saying it was the best or even remotely close to Solar Power's power. It is decent, and does have some surprise factor to it. As I have stated, I have only used it in the sun, which I bluff Solar-zard. (I send it in after I lose something normally to not show the lack of Solar Power off) The politoed that like swap into it take 79.44%-93.46% form a flying gem acro, assuming Scarf-toed, which is what I see the most. Once again, my experience is only with sun but C-zard looks like it could do decent without it. I'll have to play around with it some outside of the sun when I get a chance.
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Stealth Rock Less Ladder
- Thread starter ginganinja
- Start date
I wasn't saying it was the best or even remotely close to Solar Power's power. It is decent, and does have some surprise factor to it. As I have stated, I have only used it in the sun, which I bluff Solar-zard. (I send it in after I lose something normally to not show the lack of Solar Power off) The politoed that like swap into it take 79.44%-93.46% form a flying gem acro, assuming Scarf-toed, which is what I see the most. Once again, my experience is only with sun but C-zard looks like it could do decent without it. I'll have to play around with it some outside of the sun when I get a chance.
That. This has been the most fun I've had playing pokemon since the first few months of Gen V [where everyone just messes around and tries out the new things].
Every team is so diverse, each new team seems to have something cool and interesting, this is amazing. I don't know if I will go back to be honest, lol.
Like some others have said, I'm enjoying this ladder so much more than the standard OU ladder. Without SR, I feel like you have to actually put thought into how you're going to set up a win condition, rather than trying to get rocks up as early as possible so you can wear your opponent down enough to clean up with X sweeper. Of course, one might say the same about spikes, but spikes aren't nearly as oppressive as SR, especially since flying types are far more viable. On a ladder note, I greatly recommend trying quagsire. I peaked at #1 with it yesterday because it does so amazingly well against the huge influx of Dragonite. Tentacruel is also still a behemoth in my experience, largely due to the absence of Ferrothorn. The toxic spike support it provides has been very valuable, despite flying types being more common. It also just refuses to die in the rain.
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I'll have to try Quagsire, unfortunately diversity only goes so far as "4 wild cards + Dragonite and Volcarona," though I'll be the first to admit that Rocks are "merely" nice against Volcarona, not like how Dragonite could very well end you if he gets a free switch.
As i stated many times before, volcarona is not really THAT much more threatening than it was before. It has a lot of issues to deal with and the lack of rocks really hurts it as much as it helps since its biggest counters like dragonite, gyarados and baloontran can no longer be weared down through the match. Moltres is the real threatening fire type here, with hurricane coming out of 125 sp atk with very few resists being the most spammable move in the tier.
I've noticed people saying that the metagame is diverse. Honestly, if you change up a metagame so drastically, the results are always likely to be diverse, at least initially. Of course, this doesn't mean that it isn't diverse - that's why new and unexplored metas are always the most fun. I just don't think it will necessarily last. We'll see.
Thankfully, I haven't seen too much evidence of annoying focus sashes. My worry was not necessarily that they would dominate, just that they would be really annoying. If I get screwed by a sash normally (excluding zam) I can at least see that it was partly my fault for not setting up SR early enough, but now sashes are often unforseeable and unavoidable. I really like the way sash works on alakazam, but other than that I really think this game would be better off without it.
Thankfully, I haven't seen too much evidence of annoying focus sashes. My worry was not necessarily that they would dominate, just that they would be really annoying. If I get screwed by a sash normally (excluding zam) I can at least see that it was partly my fault for not setting up SR early enough, but now sashes are often unforseeable and unavoidable. I really like the way sash works on alakazam, but other than that I really think this game would be better off without it.
I do agree that some people might be overreacting to the diversity of the game a bit. Obviously it's going to be different than what we had before. But at the same time, removing Stealth Rocks does open up more opportunities for new Pokes to shine. For example, if we went from having no Stealth Rocks initially to having Stealth Rocks we wouldn't be diversifying the metagame but actually doing the opposite, even thought it would still be different.
Also, with Focus Sash it really isn't worth it on most mons since they are less likely to be OHKO'd than frail things like Alakazam and Dugtrio. If you aren't in danger of being OHKO'd most of the time Sash is pretty much useless. I think damage reducing berries become much more useful though on things like Kyurem-B or Dragonite since you can be more sure that you will be coming in at full health so you can tweak your EVs to take certain attacks with the berries if you would like. For example, using Haban Berry with enough EV to always live Specs Draco from Latios.
The reason why sashes are abundant right now is because lots of people are playing Sun right now (a sentence you would usually see in the ubers forum or from a player getting match maked with below 1500 accounts jk), no SR obviously meaning Levitating/Flying mons are free to keep their sashes and people haven't (re)discovered the usefulness of spikes and toxic spikes yet.
Give the ladder some time and you might see enough spike users and Sand/Hail teams to counter the usage of sashes atm. This alo might lead indirectly to the rise of Cloyster and moves that hit multiple times to counter sashes.
Speaking about a spike in usage (#punny), man that Kyube is everywhere. I needed to be reminded about how strong this thing is when he OHKO'd a Cloyster after it used Shell Smash with Outrage.
Give the ladder some time and you might see enough spike users and Sand/Hail teams to counter the usage of sashes atm. This alo might lead indirectly to the rise of Cloyster and moves that hit multiple times to counter sashes.
Speaking about a spike in usage (#punny), man that Kyube is everywhere. I needed to be reminded about how strong this thing is when he OHKO'd a Cloyster after it used Shell Smash with Outrage.
This is kind of what I was saying. Focus Sashes aren't exactly good on most pokemon, and I don't expect to see them on every other pokemon. The problem is, as I said, that when they do appear, you failing to OHKO is neither preventable nor predictable. Quite a lot of the time I feel like I've been punished for my opponent's poor choice.
I'll be getting flashbacks of my friend's Sash team before long. Jesus. I'm using some already decent teams I had and dropped Rocks on what had it and added another move, but I think I'll make a team soon that has Spikes on it to really get some mileage.
Hmm. The real problem with this metagame is that Stealth Rock was handled extremely poorly in the first place. The metagame really did need an entry hazard that could hit Pokemon immune to Spikes, but Gamefreak just went way overboard in their implementation of the new hazard. The result was a mechanic that no one can live with, and no one can live without.
It's fun to see how one move can change the metagame. It will be interesting to see which threats stick around, and which gets replaced as this ladder is played. Shame there is so little time before Gen. V becomes officially abandoned, so we're not likely to get a stable SR-less metagame this generatio.
Also makes me wonder how different the Gen. V usage list would look if Stealth Rock had been booted from the start. If we had done so, and reintroduced it at this point, the result would probably be a usage list (and banlist!) completely different from the one we have today.
Also makes me wonder how different the Gen. V usage list would look if Stealth Rock had been booted from the start. If we had done so, and reintroduced it at this point, the result would probably be a usage list (and banlist!) completely different from the one we have today.
Jason's hail team is more viable now!
Jokes aside DubDance ThubdyT and Zapdos are much better than ever! Sash is good on mediocre bulk mons like Infernape, Abamasnow, Terrakion, etc. it really is a much more viable option.
Sash Gar gets a special mention too! ;]
Jokes aside DubDance ThubdyT and Zapdos are much better than ever! Sash is good on mediocre bulk mons like Infernape, Abamasnow, Terrakion, etc. it really is a much more viable option.
Sash Gar gets a special mention too! ;]
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I feel like the best thing they could've done would be to have SR deal damage equal to 1 Spikes layer to Pokemon that can get hit by Spikes and 3 Spikes layers for Pokemon that can't get hit by spikes. But that's just me.
I lived just fine without SR in ADV so I have no idea what you are talking about here. This thread has given me hope, I plan on joining in soon enough.
I think he meant for all us poor bastards who started playing in DPPt. It's been weird adjusting to no Rocks, but honestly the huge influx of Sash Pokemon is what's been the biggest problem for me.
I used to used Quagsire a lot back when Dragonite, Excadrill and boosting Terrakion were soo popular. It struggles with choice banded threats though which have been more popular in the regular meta.
It can actually be pretty beast though with Swagger or Stockpile or Curse.
When thinking about this metagame the real question should be : Does the absence of Stealth Rock promote skill in teambuilding and skill in actual matches?
My opinion is that this metagame is less skillful in both aspects. Most of the top threats got way stronger without SR and most games comes down to who has the correct win condition matchup at the end. I feel like on this ladder You really don't get the chance to be penalized for switching or using strong pokemon midgame. Yeah ADV didnt have SR but it also didn't have the raw power that B/W has. I think gamefreak was smart and gave competitive guys something to balance the game out. Stealth Rock is basically a blessing in disguise if you ask me. Think about dragonite for a second.... It can literally come in on anything and 1 or 2 hit KO it with "something". You can't knock it out at full health unless you have an extremely powerful super effective move. So yeah... This metagame may be new and fresh but I don't feel like I am playing a skilled game now. I wouldn't mind having two standard OU ladders with SR gone and the other not. The SR free metagame is not a terrible metagame and I would like to see it develop along side the regular metagame. I think with focus sash gone and some other mons it could be a solid and fun alternative.
My opinion is that this metagame is less skillful in both aspects. Most of the top threats got way stronger without SR and most games comes down to who has the correct win condition matchup at the end. I feel like on this ladder You really don't get the chance to be penalized for switching or using strong pokemon midgame. Yeah ADV didnt have SR but it also didn't have the raw power that B/W has. I think gamefreak was smart and gave competitive guys something to balance the game out. Stealth Rock is basically a blessing in disguise if you ask me. Think about dragonite for a second.... It can literally come in on anything and 1 or 2 hit KO it with "something". You can't knock it out at full health unless you have an extremely powerful super effective move. So yeah... This metagame may be new and fresh but I don't feel like I am playing a skilled game now. I wouldn't mind having two standard OU ladders with SR gone and the other not. The SR free metagame is not a terrible metagame and I would like to see it develop along side the regular metagame. I think with focus sash gone and some other mons it could be a solid and fun alternative.
The problem is Dragonite, not lack of Stealth Rock. Most of the offensive SR-weak Pokemon have also gained new counters, or find it harder to break through old ones now that rocks are gone; however, there are also a few that would have ended up in Ubers were it not for that weakness, Dragonite being the worst. He's like Yache Garchomp in DDP, in that you almost always need to run two counters/checks, one to weaken and another to kill.
Having a lot of fun with Shedinja on this ladder. Currently running it as a sun pivot with Xatu (Lavos was using someones rmt on stream with it). Its quite interesting to say the least. Xatu deals with every spike user bar offensive Scolipede and Froslass. Considering Balloon on Shedinja for lulz and lack of care for hazards, though 2 lives would be missed.
Some interesting things can be done on the typical stealth rock users for coverage, like on Lando-T I'm running HP Fire (with sun ofc).
Some interesting things can be done on the typical stealth rock users for coverage, like on Lando-T I'm running HP Fire (with sun ofc).
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I really don't understand your argument at all here. You say that this gen has too much raw power but you want an added 12% damage to nearly every switch in? Thats quite a power boost to Offensive Threats like Keldeo and Terrakion, among others, if you ask me. You also say that there is nothing to punish switching, but why should there be? More switching means more predictions which means a necessity for more skilled play. More switching also allows you to scout for moves to better check Offensive Threats. And again, as people have said above, just because something might be broken in this metagame now, it doesn't mean that it couldnt be banned in the future so complaints about Dragonite really have no merit in determining how the absence of SR benefits or detracts from the Metagame.
You also didn't mention anything about how the metagame affects the Team Building like you said you were going to process so I'll give my 2 cents on it. To me, having more room to work with in Team Building by not having to worry about having a Stealth Rock setter or a Rapid Spinner in some cases allows for more creativity and more focus towards the teams goals. For example lets say your team is based around a Double Dance Landorus-T sweep. In a metagame with Stealth Rocks you can sacrifice a team slots to a Stealth Rock Lead and a Spin Blocker to rack up damage on every opposing member throughout the match, turning 2HKO's into OHKO's and 3HKO's into 2HKO's for your sweeper with no prediction or Team Building skill required whatsoever. Now, without Stealth Rocks, you need to synergize your team to be able to soften your sweepers counters and anything that can revenge KO it, which promotes more creativity in Team Building and takes more skill to carry out during the match.
lol
There are obviously going to be people who hate Stealth Rock and think that it "limits and discourages creativity" but to be honest it really doesn't. Stealth Rock balances the metagame if anything, and if this new metagame (no-sr) wasn't so new and so "oh hey look what I can try" I bet most of you would be changing your mind a few weeks in. Stealth Rock keeps a lot of things in check that otherwise would have such a larger and more unfavorable effect in the metagame. HO would basically be non-existent as relying on Spikes for residual damage is unreliable at best without Rocks, and to be honest this would limit playstyles so much more than you think. If you even try to compare this metagame to ADV then you're losing ground right there. Everything in this metagame is so much stronger and more offensive and the variety is so much greater. Do you honestly think that anybody could compare the two at all even remotely?
I guess I can see where you come from by promoting synergy but lets be honest here, "synergy" and "increased creativity" are not arguments for banning Stealth Rock. We don't go on a basis of a creative metagame. Stealth Rock is almost always one of those "synergy" additions you say built in as so many sweepers (including landorus-t lololol) really like Stealth Rock as you can just continuously weaken things like Skarmory or Rotom-W over and over. Synergy is already done and tbh the extent would not be increased that greatly. It doesn't even take that much more skill if you ask me, it just makes the metagame more ridiculous.
Not saying I 100% agree with everything Curtains said in his post at all but the 12% damage actually helps manage a lot of the threats and raw powerful threats in the metagame and if anything promotes more skill into out-predicting opponents and spinning / managing threats. You basically make the metagame even harder to check and countering become null in some instances. You're losing more ground than you're gaining. Keldeo / Terrakion of course gain a lot from SR, and it is possibly the best teammate to those 2, but they're still perfectly counterable (as expressed in the recent Keldeo test too), and to be honest that kind of build-up balances and even adds skill if you ask me to add passive damage and break down opponents counters with a secondary effect. You can never just stick a CB Terrak out there once and sweep right away against a decent team. And I don't think that it is even a punishment for switching at all, more switching doesn't mean more predictions. More switching isn't so amazing really, and it won't effect prediction in the way you expect. It does weaken some offensive threats a bit and make them a little more manageable in the long run especially with the OHKO-2HKO factor, but that doesn't mean more prediction. I guess you do have a higher capacity of scouting for things like HP Grass Jirachi or Expert Belt TTar, but even that kind of takes away some of the efficiency of lures if you ask me, and that doesn't exactly mean it increases skill.
You kind of are losing the ability to check so many things and overall solidity of a lot of teams if SR is gone. You're acting like you'll all of a sudden be able to cover more threats / break more threats, which is the complete opposite of what will happen. Like I said, wait a little while and you'll realize this and that the perfect picture of a "metagame with no SR" does not extend teambuilding, but limit it and make the metagame worse.
And since when are sashes everywhere a good thing????? you have to be shitting me.
There are obviously going to be people who hate Stealth Rock and think that it "limits and discourages creativity" but to be honest it really doesn't. Stealth Rock balances the metagame if anything, and if this new metagame (no-sr) wasn't so new and so "oh hey look what I can try" I bet most of you would be changing your mind a few weeks in. Stealth Rock keeps a lot of things in check that otherwise would have such a larger and more unfavorable effect in the metagame. HO would basically be non-existent as relying on Spikes for residual damage is unreliable at best without Rocks, and to be honest this would limit playstyles so much more than you think. If you even try to compare this metagame to ADV then you're losing ground right there. Everything in this metagame is so much stronger and more offensive and the variety is so much greater. Do you honestly think that anybody could compare the two at all even remotely?
I guess I can see where you come from by promoting synergy but lets be honest here, "synergy" and "increased creativity" are not arguments for banning Stealth Rock. We don't go on a basis of a creative metagame. Stealth Rock is almost always one of those "synergy" additions you say built in as so many sweepers (including landorus-t lololol) really like Stealth Rock as you can just continuously weaken things like Skarmory or Rotom-W over and over. Synergy is already done and tbh the extent would not be increased that greatly. It doesn't even take that much more skill if you ask me, it just makes the metagame more ridiculous.
Not saying I 100% agree with everything Curtains said in his post at all but the 12% damage actually helps manage a lot of the threats and raw powerful threats in the metagame and if anything promotes more skill into out-predicting opponents and spinning / managing threats. You basically make the metagame even harder to check and countering become null in some instances. You're losing more ground than you're gaining. Keldeo / Terrakion of course gain a lot from SR, and it is possibly the best teammate to those 2, but they're still perfectly counterable (as expressed in the recent Keldeo test too), and to be honest that kind of build-up balances and even adds skill if you ask me to add passive damage and break down opponents counters with a secondary effect. You can never just stick a CB Terrak out there once and sweep right away against a decent team. And I don't think that it is even a punishment for switching at all, more switching doesn't mean more predictions. More switching isn't so amazing really, and it won't effect prediction in the way you expect. It does weaken some offensive threats a bit and make them a little more manageable in the long run especially with the OHKO-2HKO factor, but that doesn't mean more prediction. I guess you do have a higher capacity of scouting for things like HP Grass Jirachi or Expert Belt TTar, but even that kind of takes away some of the efficiency of lures if you ask me, and that doesn't exactly mean it increases skill.
You kind of are losing the ability to check so many things and overall solidity of a lot of teams if SR is gone. You're acting like you'll all of a sudden be able to cover more threats / break more threats, which is the complete opposite of what will happen. Like I said, wait a little while and you'll realize this and that the perfect picture of a "metagame with no SR" does not extend teambuilding, but limit it and make the metagame worse.
And since when are sashes everywhere a good thing????? you have to be shitting me.
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Well my post wasn't really an argument... The point about dragonite was that Gamefreak knows that some of the most powerful pokemon are in the air or weak to rock (because you know.... they make the games) and would be most vulnerable to SR. I never mentioned anything about banning D-nite and don't know where in my post you got that from. About switching... I think anything that creates more nodes of calculation when it comes to switching is beneficial to increasing the amount of skill that it takes to win games. As far as teambuilding goes I think that still the SR metagame has more skill to it. You can't just bring in your sweeper in the middle of the match and expect to get 1 1/2-3 kills. The best example of this is volcarona based teams. You have to build up to a sweep and prevent the opposing team from keeping up SR while simultaneously playing careful defense and getting kills using quality guesswork. This is also using the assumption that SR is even on the field.... It may not even be on the field at all because of a taunt, a magic bounce or something else. But this wasn't suppose to be a SR ban vs anti ban thread so we should probably end this "argument" here.
