Sustainability of the Pokémon model

One thing that would help in Generation 7 is culling moves, and maybe even Pokemon, entirely.

Culling moves would be easy. Seriously, has anyone ever said "Yes" when Dragonite asks if it can learn Hyper Beam? Why have both Trick and Switcheroo when they do exactly the same damn thing? If a Poke transferred via Pokebank has an 'culled move' either delete it or replace it with an equivalent move. Good gods, imagine how much better it would be if Dragonite asked, "Hey, can I learn Extremespeed?" instead of a useless move that even seven year olds know is garbage.

Merging many (if not all) of the identical moves would be wonderful too IMHO. Stat boosting/lowering moves are some of the worst offenders here. Why have Leer, Screech, AND Tail Whip? Foresight and Odor Sleuth? Harden, Withdraw, and Defense Curl? Whirlwind and Roar? I'd personally replace some of the strictly worse with the strictly better, like Sing/Hypnosis, Sleep Powder/Spore, Selfdestruct/Explosion, but arguments could be made that would invalidate some pokes (isn't Spore like one of the few real reasons to use Breloom?)

The argument could also be made for those being flavorful names and keeping them, and I could agree with some such as like Milk Drink/Softboiled/Slack Off/Recover, or Moonlight/Synthesis, or Agility/Rock Polish (though really, why does Metragross learn both?) but seriously, do we need 3 moves for "Reduce defense one step" or "Raise defense one step"? It'd make programming the game easier and reduce the footprint of the whole thing.


Culling Pokemon would be... more difficult, but it would simplify competitive play and the Pokedex issue - seriously, WHY DO WE NEED a Pidove line and a Starly line when we've got a Pidgey line? Merge the three, and have the Pidgey line count towards 16-18, 396-398, and 519-521 (TBH I like the Starly line the most, but that's probably because I played Platinum first!) While Gen V is the worst in this regard, all the generations could do with a touch of culling - remove Cascoon and Dustox for example, and only have Wurmple-Silcoon-Beautifly with the latter two counting towards the now-culled slots.

The only problem is keeping the repeat designs that actually add distinction - and fan favorites, of course. I do like the difference between the Abra and Solosis lines - both psychic types who evolve via trade finally, but one is a frail speedster and the other is a bulky defender. Is there enough difference between Timburr and Machop's lines to justify keeping both? Spearow/Rufflet/Taillow? Tauros/Bouffalant? Ducklett/Wingull?

World explanation might be handwaved away that some species went extinct or merged with others - maybe have new designs that incorporate the elements of any merged lines (Pidgey with a Starly head and Pidove coloring, perhaps?)
Do the words "Star Wars Special Edition" mean anything to you? Cause that is the kind of backlash that will be aimed at Game Freak if they did this. The vast majority of fans would be angry and it is possible some of us would stop buying the games.
I will admit though, while I don't think we should remove moves, it at least isn't as bad of an idea.

I can't say "Don't design new Pokemon", because I'm still hoping for a Dark-Psychic-Fighting trio of starters, and there are certainly design spaces for new pocket monsters. Just... I want them to look at the ones they have first.
We do have a Dark-Psychic-Fighting trio of starters:

They may not be their primary types, but they still exist.



I think this question is partially why we have fewer new Pokémon in this Generation in comparison to Generations III-V. Scaling back is good since we are quickly approaching a thousand Pokémon total. What Game Freak needs to do if also scale back giving Pokémon alternate forms and special move tutors. I just have to agree about Mauville City having so many of these. This also applies to Mega Evolutions to an extent. In a year, we have gotten about 50 of them. Since we can only use one at a time, we simply don't need many more. I hope if/when there is Pokémon Z/X2/Y2, we don't add another 20 to the pile.
 
And how would you feel if one of the Pokemon you liked, such as Starly, were to have been "culled"?

Still think culling is a good idea? I know I don't.
I wouldn't like it on an emotional level (Don't take my shiny Braviary! America, FUCK YEAH!), but on a game design level I would understand. And that's part of why it won't happen, I think, or would happen in a very limited way: too many 'uberfans' would get way too emotional about it, and the people designing the games now are the ones who grew up playing them!

But SOMETHING has to be done to reduce the complication of Pokemon before it collapses under its own weight, and the sooner the better.

Look, there are basically three kinds of games: Simple, complicated, and complex.

Simple games are shallow, and you can see their depth without too much effort. This is just fine, within a narrow scope of fun, but when you try to extend out beyond that you have problems. Good example: Plants vs. Zombies. Put your plants down to defend your house. Bad example: the first two Rune Factory games, which cobbled a half-assed action RPG into the proven Harvest Moon formula. Didn't get it right until RF3, which is sad because RF1 & 2 had my favorite character designs and actual NPCs (Raven in RF3 the exception).

Complex games are ones which are shallow to start with, but have amazing depth when you go farther. Pokemon is a PERFECT example of that; it's shallow enough for preadolescents to play the main storyline with a real challenge, but even in the main game the 'endgame' challenges are deep enough to occupy even adults (proof: this forum!) Even if you don't go online and battle, the in-game finishing pokedex and Battle Tower/Maison/Frontier keeps the challenge up.

Complicated games look deep, but that's an illusion, with jagged rocks hiding underneath. They are hard to understand and discouraging for most beginners - aside from a small subset that enjoy memorizing rules over playing the game (Dungeons & Dragons 3e splatbooks come to mind...). Pokemon is in serious risk of turning into a complicated game, and it didn't really hit me until I got to Mauville and saw the variety of different tutors required to handle various legendaries over the years - and it isn't even all of 'em! The use of "Hey, thanks to MAGIC now there are 600-odd instead of 200 pokemon on all the routes, go catch 'em!" was pretty smooth, but that it had to be done at all in that matter is... not good from a game design standpoint.

Gods, we were trying to finish the Pokedex in X/Y before ORAS, and we had to boot up a ROM of Pearl to catch a damn Glameow, then trade it over to the physical SoulSilver, then realized Theresa's White2 run was still unfinished and spent 3 hours jamming through the E4, THEN we were FINALLY able to transfer the Glameow to White2 and from there to Pokebank.

THAT'S complicated, and way not fun. It's one pokemon that somehow got overlooked in X/Y as a bottleneck to finishing a Pokedex, and good GODS what some people wanted for Glameow/Purugly on the GTS... of course, GTS is generally ridiculous, but still.

It bodes, and bodes badly.

Ah, Stantler/Bouffalant/Touros. I knew there was a third pokemon in that set of "Normals that don't evolve with middling stats." And of the three, yeah, I like its look the most.
 
I wouldn't like it on an emotional level (Don't take my shiny Braviary! America, FUCK YEAH!), but on a game design level I would understand. And that's part of why it won't happen, I think, or would happen in a very limited way: too many 'uberfans' would get way too emotional about it, and the people designing the games now are the ones who grew up playing them!

But SOMETHING has to be done to reduce the complication of Pokemon before it collapses under its own weight, and the sooner the better.

Look, there are basically three kinds of games: Simple, complicated, and complex.

Simple games are shallow, and you can see their depth without too much effort. This is just fine, within a narrow scope of fun, but when you try to extend out beyond that you have problems. Good example: Plants vs. Zombies. Put your plants down to defend your house. Bad example: the first two Rune Factory games, which cobbled a half-assed action RPG into the proven Harvest Moon formula. Didn't get it right until RF3, which is sad because RF1 & 2 had my favorite character designs and actual NPCs (Raven in RF3 the exception).

Complex games are ones which are shallow to start with, but have amazing depth when you go farther. Pokemon is a PERFECT example of that; it's shallow enough for preadolescents to play the main storyline with a real challenge, but even in the main game the 'endgame' challenges are deep enough to occupy even adults (proof: this forum!) Even if you don't go online and battle, the in-game finishing pokedex and Battle Tower/Maison/Frontier keeps the challenge up.

Complicated games look deep, but that's an illusion, with jagged rocks hiding underneath. They are hard to understand and discouraging for most beginners - aside from a small subset that enjoy memorizing rules over playing the game (Dungeons & Dragons 3e splatbooks come to mind...). Pokemon is in serious risk of turning into a complicated game, and it didn't really hit me until I got to Mauville and saw the variety of different tutors required to handle various legendaries over the years - and it isn't even all of 'em! The use of "Hey, thanks to MAGIC now there are 600-odd instead of 200 pokemon on all the routes, go catch 'em!" was pretty smooth, but that it had to be done at all in that matter is... not good from a game design standpoint.

Gods, we were trying to finish the Pokedex in X/Y before ORAS, and we had to boot up a ROM of Pearl to catch a damn Glameow, then trade it over to the physical SoulSilver, then realized Theresa's White2 run was still unfinished and spent 3 hours jamming through the E4, THEN we were FINALLY able to transfer the Glameow to White2 and from there to Pokebank.

THAT'S complicated, and way not fun. It's one pokemon that somehow got overlooked in X/Y as a bottleneck to finishing a Pokedex, and good GODS what some people wanted for Glameow/Purugly on the GTS... of course, GTS is generally ridiculous, but still.

It bodes, and bodes badly.

Ah, Stantler/Bouffalant/Touros. I knew there was a third pokemon in that set of "Normals that don't evolve with middling stats." And of the three, yeah, I like its look the most.
Perhaps that's why so many Pokemon are suddenly available in OR/AS? Besides, it's a REMAKE. Some things are bound to be glaringly different. GTS frankly shouldn't count for any sort of gauge of what's wanted for what when dozens of kids will happily throw up a level 1-10 Weedle or Zigzagoon and demand Arceus or Mew amoung other ridiculous things.

I'm still sure that at least for now and the near future, Pokemon is fine.
 
No, it's not a problem NOW, and probably not in Gen 7 (800 is a nice round number for them to stop on, with 81 new pokes), but at what point does it BECOME a problem?

Isn't this thread 'the sustainability of the Pokemon model?'

Does it collapse when it hits Gen 9, with close to 1000 Pokemon, 900+ moves (assuming 100 new moves per generation, as has held steady since gen 3), 20 total Pokemon that need Forme changers (12 now, so 2 a generation is a fair estimate), ~250 Abilities, and they're not gonna stop adding Mega Stones; even if they only have 10 new ones a generation that's nearly 80 Mega Evolutions...

Remember, a Pokemon generation is only 3 years. 2022 may seem far away to you, but hell, I can remember sneering at my friend who asked me to drive him off-base so he could buy Fire Red, and him defensively saying, "Hey, it's a good game, especially playing against other people!" It's NOT far away.

The sooner they did something like what I'm proposing, the less it would hurt, and the more it would stretch out the Pokemon model - and getting rid of duplicate Pokemon and duplicate moves that have no purpose OTHER than duplicatication (seriously, why have Starly and Pidove lines when you've got Pidgey?) would cut down on complicating the game, too.

I'm not saying do a complete wipe of anything remotely similar. Vacuum Wave and Mach Punch are valid moves to keep. The fluff of Softboiled/Recover/Slack Off/Milk Drink are fun and enjoyable. The tradition of a new Electric rodent in each generation should probably continue - as much as I dislike Dedenne and Pachirisu, I did like Emolga, and Plusle/Minun are adorable.

The thing is that whoever does it has to walk a fine line between pruning carefully and chopping off something the Pokemon world as a whole should have. That's why I dislike the idea of leaving it in the hands of fanboys - someone's likely to pick a pokemon for pruning because they don't like it personally, instead of it not adding anything to the game.


And hell, we're just some dudes on a forum. Our livelihoods and futures don't depend on us managing the brand and the game. If some of us are thinking it, then for sure the people in charge are thinking it - note that this gen added the fewest new Pokemon of any new gen (not counting Mega Evolution), and all of those actually ADDED something new, be it for competitive play like Talonflame's Gale Wings, or fun stuff like Vivilon's patterns/Pumpkaboo's forme sizes. Rather than adding a bunch of new Fairy-type pokemon, they went back and retconned older ones to give them a new breath of life (though for the life of me, why they didn't add Fairy to the Vanillish line...). Most of the new moves they added were Fairy type. They're being careful, for now.

But fairly soon they're gonna have to make a radical move, and the need to do so has gotta be pressing them harder than before - mobile gaming is cutting into Nintendo's handheld share, and Pokemon is THE flagship of Nintendo's handheld devices.

But hell, I'm just arguing for argument's sake now - and in the hopes that in two years I can find this post, quote it, and say, "Told ya so!" :P
 
If the amount of Pokemon becomes so much that it's a problem, GF are better off just making remakes/not adding new Pokemon at all rather than throwing away half the work of 20 years along with most of their fanbase. They could even make certain Pokemon only available in past games, but they can still be bred in newer games or things like that.

Even if culling Pokemon makes sense from a developmental view, it does not make sense for a game with a huge fanbase to do that. If they did, they might as well stop making Pokemon games for how much they're going to lose. There are parts of every game that is non-negotiable, and the part about Pokemon that is non-negotiable is the Pokemon themselves.

iamfanboy, I don't understand how you can get the fluff of having multiple forms of Recover but not the fluff of having regional birds and rodents -_- Staraptor is different from Pidgeot, being more faster and more physically powerful, whereas Pidgeot's offenses and defenses are more spread out and it's far more of an in-game utility Pokemon than Staraptor, which actually can carry you through the game with seriously strong attacks like Close Combat (obviously not counting Pidgeot's mega evolution here, which you can't even use in any game so far unless you really wanted to backtrack to get Pidgeotto after getting the National Dex in ORAS). And that's not even starting on the fact that they're regional because they're from different regions, which have different wildlife due to different geography ...
 
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No, it's not a problem NOW, and probably not in Gen 7 (800 is a nice round number for them to stop on, with 81 new pokes), but at what point does it BECOME a problem?

Isn't this thread 'the sustainability of the Pokemon model?'

Does it collapse when it hits Gen 9, with close to 1000 Pokemon, 900+ moves (assuming 100 new moves per generation, as has held steady since gen 3), 20 total Pokemon that need Forme changers (12 now, so 2 a generation is a fair estimate), ~250 Abilities, and they're not gonna stop adding Mega Stones; even if they only have 10 new ones a generation that's nearly 80 Mega Evolutions...

Remember, a Pokemon generation is only 3 years. 2022 may seem far away to you, but hell, I can remember sneering at my friend who asked me to drive him off-base so he could buy Fire Red, and him defensively saying, "Hey, it's a good game, especially playing against other people!" It's NOT far away.

The sooner they did something like what I'm proposing, the less it would hurt, and the more it would stretch out the Pokemon model - and getting rid of duplicate Pokemon and duplicate moves that have no purpose OTHER than duplicatication (seriously, why have Starly and Pidove lines when you've got Pidgey?) would cut down on complicating the game, too.

I'm not saying do a complete wipe of anything remotely similar. Vacuum Wave and Mach Punch are valid moves to keep. The fluff of Softboiled/Recover/Slack Off/Milk Drink are fun and enjoyable. The tradition of a new Electric rodent in each generation should probably continue - as much as I dislike Dedenne and Pachirisu, I did like Emolga, and Plusle/Minun are adorable.

The thing is that whoever does it has to walk a fine line between pruning carefully and chopping off something the Pokemon world as a whole should have. That's why I dislike the idea of leaving it in the hands of fanboys - someone's likely to pick a pokemon for pruning because they don't like it personally, instead of it not adding anything to the game.


And hell, we're just some dudes on a forum. Our livelihoods and futures don't depend on us managing the brand and the game. If some of us are thinking it, then for sure the people in charge are thinking it - note that this gen added the fewest new Pokemon of any new gen (not counting Mega Evolution), and all of those actually ADDED something new, be it for competitive play like Talonflame's Gale Wings, or fun stuff like Vivilon's patterns/Pumpkaboo's forme sizes. Rather than adding a bunch of new Fairy-type pokemon, they went back and retconned older ones to give them a new breath of life (though for the life of me, why they didn't add Fairy to the Vanillish line...). Most of the new moves they added were Fairy type. They're being careful, for now.

But fairly soon they're gonna have to make a radical move, and the need to do so has gotta be pressing them harder than before - mobile gaming is cutting into Nintendo's handheld share, and Pokemon is THE flagship of Nintendo's handheld devices.

But hell, I'm just arguing for argument's sake now - and in the hopes that in two years I can find this post, quote it, and say, "Told ya so!" :P
I can't really defend Unfezant, since now Mega Pidgeot does the Special bird thing a bit better, but Staraptor is a fucking beast. Best damn early bird Pokemon of any generation, in my opinion. (seriously, as soon as it evolves it gets Close Combat. THAT'S beastly) I, and several other people would be mad as heck to suddenly see it gone. Pokemon's whole catch line has almost always been, "Gotta catch 'em all!" and you can't exactly do that if certain Pokemon deemed 'not adding anything to the game' are now suddenly gone. What of poor Timmy, who's favorite Pokemon happens to be one of those? No, the Pokemon themselves have to all remain, even the literal piles of shit and bags of trash. And every letter of Unown you can possibly catch. They could consolidate all the various items needed by certain legendary Pokemon to one or two NPC's if they need to. (Deoxys' meteorite can be lumped nearly anywhere)
 
My fiance said exactly the same thing, actually - her words were, "Having different Pokemon of almost exactly the same type makes the Pokemon world feel more real."

And I understand, I do, I'm just trying to think of the health of the franchise as a whole - and I may not have the right answer, but it is a problem that needs addressing, and relatively soon. *shrug*
 

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iamfanboy from what I can see with your arguments you are actually saying the the Pokémon franchise is too complex and that beginners can't pick it up, but beginners don't give a shit about most of the mechanics. When I was a child I would have seriously uncompetitive Pokémon and my strategy playing through the game was "hit stuff and hope it dies".

From a developmental point of view it's also a non-issue. Not every Pokémon is available in every single game! This may make it somewhat difficult to complete the National Dex, but again, that's a fairly small amount of players who are affected by it. No beginner cares about completing the National Dex, and most experienced players don't either. Anyway, because not every Pokémon is available in every single game because they don't have to be, it isn't really an issue, and if it is, it is easily solvable. GF should just make more Pokémon version exclusives, and if necessary give the third game of the trio version exclusives as well. This means that, combined with the probable remakes within said generation, players will be able to catch a huge amount of Pokémon within one generation of games, most of which a beginner won't care about! Plus, for the people who do care about it, they really need to buy two games instead of one which means more money for GF! There are easier and simpler solutions to this "problem" which doesn't involve fucking over most of the fanbase and developers alike...
 
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iamfanboy from what I can see with your arguments you are actually saying the the Pokémon franchise is too complex and that beginners can't pick it up, but beginners don't give a shit about most of the mechanics. When I was a child I would have seriously uncompetitive Pokémon and my strategy playing through the game was "hit stuff and hope it dies".

From a developmental point of view it's also a non-issue. Not every Pokémon is available in every single game! This may make it somewhat difficult to complete the National Dex, but again, that's a fairly small amount of players who are affected by it. No beginner cares about completing the National Dex, and most experienced players don't either. Anyway, because not every Pokémon is available in every single game because they don't have to be, it isn't really an issue, and if it is, it is easily solvable. GF should just make more Pokémon version exclusives, and if necessary give the third game of the trio version exclusives as well. This means that, combined with the probable remakes within said generation, players will be able to catch a huge amount of Pokémon within one generation of games, most of which a beginner won't care about! Plus, for the people who do care about it, they really need to buy two games instead of one which means more money for GF! There are easier and simpler solutions to this "problem" which doesn't involve fucking over most of the fanbase and developers alike...
They don't even need to do this. The evolution of the GTS into the PSS has been a massive success for GF I think. Now that everyone is kinda expected to have internet access it makes the game so much more accessible when hunting thos version exclusives as all you need to do it list your own version's exclusive and hey presto, you're almost guaranteed a trade within an hour.

I'm also kinda not digging the remake model any more - with Gen 6 we'll probably see every single pokemon available with a Pentagon by the time Gen 7 rolls around so there's less call to go back and make the Gen 4 games for example, because OR/AS already gave us their box legends so what would be the point?

I am really hoping Gen 7 follows the Gen 5 model, where we go to a totally new region with ~150 or so new mons, maybe some old 1-2 stage mons that get another (non Mega) evolution and we have a blast figuring out which are our favorites aesthetically and competitively all over again.
 
I'm also kinda not digging the remake model any more - with Gen 6 we'll probably see every single pokemon available with a Pentagon by the time Gen 7 rolls around so there's less call to go back and make the Gen 4 games for example, because OR/AS already gave us their box legends so what would be the point?
What's the point in any remake? To be able to play an updated version of a fondly-remembered game. If anything ORAS demonstrated that GameFreak's remake strategy was not merely about enabling gen I and II to be compatible with gen III and beyond.

From GameFreak's perspective, the point in remakes is even clearer: (1) money and (2) what other IPs do those guys have to go and work on?
 
Gods, we were trying to finish the Pokedex in X/Y before ORAS, and we had to boot up a ROM of Pearl to catch a damn Glameow, then trade it over to the physical SoulSilver, then realized Theresa's White2 run was still unfinished and spent 3 hours jamming through the E4, THEN we were FINALLY able to transfer the Glameow to White2 and from there to Pokebank.

THAT'S complicated, and way not fun. It's one pokemon that somehow got overlooked in X/Y as a bottleneck to finishing a Pokedex, and good GODS what some people wanted for Glameow/Purugly on the GTS... of course, GTS is generally ridiculous, but still.
I found that if you offer a hatchling with good IVs, your request will usually be answered in within 24 hours. I've even gotten hatchlings from foreign regions. They usually don't have a compatible nature, but then that would be no worse than just catching a damn Glameow.
 
I guess no one was looking for a 4 IV Impish Immunity Gligar, only missing SpA (hah!) and SpD, when I left one up for a day before resorting to ROM-use. *shrug* Might help if you could search by Pokemon wanted, that way you could see who needs what you have to offer...

and it was still up there by the time I finished with all that rigamarole.

Maybe it was the name, but I thought Sandy Claws is funny for a Gliscor.

Regardless, it was a oversight, and even though it's a minor one (for now), it does give a hint that the model is becoming unwieldy.
 
Regardless, it was a oversight, and even though it's a minor one (for now), it does give a hint that the model is becoming unwieldy.
Glameow is available in White 2 - through a somewhat convoluted process of first beating the Champion to unlock the Search Hidden Grottoes! Funfest Mission, then completing that to unlock the Quiet Hidden Grottoes! Funfest Mission, which specifically fills all the Hidden Grottoes with Glameow (Stunky in Black 2). I have a suspicion it was made this complicated on purpose, and it's sparsely documented, but you never need any game earlier than Platinum to complete the National Dex in X/Y.
 

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Touching up on a small issue I couldn't fit into the OP: Content inflation for single Pokémon.

Consider any Pokémon introduced in Gen. I that was not a Normal type, Dragonite, Gengar or Nidosomething. In its original form, it would have a pretty abysmal movepool, could not hold items, and did not have any Abilities. All in all, quite boring by today's standards.

Gen. II expanded its movepool to passable levels, balanced its Special stats, and gave it the option to hold items, effectively making it a lot more diverse to play with.

Come Gen. III, it got an Ability, maybe even two, more items to hold, and more moves. Tutors for stuff not called Headbutt or Elemental Beams enter the scene. Breeding moves are expanded upon, and Heart Scales mean that fully evolved Pokémon can have "hidden moves" theoretically learnable at lvl. 1, but in reality only available via relearning.

In Gen. IV, the great Physical/Special split gave our theoretical Pokémon a lot of more viable move types to play with, allowing for a more diverse movepool. It might have gotten access to a new Ability, and maybe also an evolution. Game mechanics as we know them today are mostly finalized at this time.

By Gen. V, the Pokémon is not changed as much from the previous generation. It might have gotten a Hidden Ability, which is to say a regular Ability with a more inconvenient way of acquisition. New moves are somewhat limited in number and distribution. Tutors' learn lists are nearly filled up with already-existing moves.

Gen. VI might add Mega Evolution to our theory-mon, but little in the way of new moves. Most new moves have a rather limited distribution, and the new Abilities even more so. Apart from through Mega Evolution, only a tiny handful of old Pokémon gain access to one of the new Abilities (the exceptions only being Competitive and Protean, given to seven and one old Pokémon, respectively). A handful of Pokémon and moves see some adjustments to their stats, which otherwise have been unchanged since GSC or longer.


The trend is that Pokémon gradually gain new content for them every generation, usually in the way of new moves or new Abilities. However, from a design standpoint there's only so many moves you can give a Pokémon before they are saturated, so to say. You don't need a new move every third level, for instance, and if every Pokémon learns every move, diversity is lost. Give Drill Peck to Pidgeot and Hurricane to Fearow, then what is left to distinguish them from another*? Movepools have ballooned every generation now, but the pace is going slower as we reach a point where (gasp!) most Pokémon already have every move they could wish for. The addition of several abilities makes opportunities for several play styles, but then again there are other factors judging whether a Pokémon can play that style good enough, for instance stats (and movepool, given that movepools are kept limited to uphold diversity). Some Pokémon will always do the same job much better, meaning that each Pokémon will face stiff competition for every niche it tries to occupy, and the worse ones will be left without a niche at all.

Keep in mind that niches aren't solely competitive either, there are also niches for general notability. For instance, Lotad's line was long the only Pokémon that could recover HP in rain thanks to Rain Dish. Then Gen. V arrived, and eight more Pokémon gained the ability. Plusle and Minun had this thing going with Plus and Minus. Well, now there are four other evolutionary families having the option. Pain Split was once Misdreavus' signature move, now there are almost a hundred Pokémon capable of learning it.
Spread the options too widely, and traits that once made a Pokémon unique become commonplace and the uniquety - the Pokémon's very identity - disappears.

Keep in mind that Abilities usually give a Pokémon way more of an identity than a movepool does. That is, signature moves add flavour too, but not nearly as much as a (unique?) ability does. If a Pokémon has too many possible Abilities, what identity does it have? Give it Guts/Sturdy/Levitate, and it'd be hard to tell what the Pokémon actually does. A Pokémon with only Arena Trap, for instance, has it fairly simple: Just from that alone, you can tell that it traps its enemies, forcing them to battle as there is no escape (unless you can fly). If the 'mon has Telepathy, you can picture it communicating voicelessly with its teammates. A Pokémon with Strong Jaw bites a lot. Even though its movepool might not necessarily have as many biting moves available, players will immediately associate it with biting (Hippowdon, for instance, learns more biting moves than Mega Sharpedo, even though the latter clearly is easier to associate with biting attacks). A good Ability is one that captures the essence of the Pokémon. Give a 'mon too many abilities, most of which are shared with other, completely different Pokémon, and that essence is going to be awfully diluted.


However, and this is the big key, part of the fun experience with playing Pokémon, and a huge marketing draw for the series, is seeing how old Pokémon is given new content to play with for every game: More Abilities. Egg Moves. Tutor moves. Updated learnsets, so the Pokémon is more fun to play through the game with than it was in the last game it featured (as illustrated perfectly by many ORAS Pokémon). We do not only crave new content and new Pokémon, we crave new content for old Pokémon. We want Hi Jump Kick for Breloom. Heavy Slam for Metagross. A physical Ice move with 100+ base power for Kyurem-B. Tinted Lens for Flygon, Flare Blitz for Flareon, Aeroblast for Aerodactyl, all those old memes. And we'll get mightily disappointed the day GameFreak creates tons of new moves and Abilities, yet not distributing them among existing Pokémon. Remember the backlash for BW, when old Pokémon weren't available in the main story? Fans want their old favourites to get some attention too.

In other words:
  • To keep variation and uniquety alive, GameFreak has to restrict the amount of Pokémon they spread their new moves and abilities across (in short, preventing every Pokémon from being capable of doing every job - which would lead right into that famous The Incredibles quote**).
  • To keep movepools and Abilities within reasonable limits for a game - and to give each Pokémon a sort of distinct identity - a Pokémon should not have too many moves or Abilities available to it.
  • Movepools and Abilities have begun to reach their practical limits, if not this generation then within two or three. Content is very rarely removed from a Pokémon.
  • Fans still want more, more, more, and not adding so would potentially hurt sales.

So, all in all, GameFreak is at a bit of a catch-22: They can add more content to most old Pokémon, and watch them struggle to have any sort of notability among the hundreds and hundreds of available species (additionally making it harder and harder for new players to pick things up), or they can make less new content for every Pokémon and hurt sales. It's a bit of a dilemma, I'd say.


*"Pidgeot can Mega Evolve, you dolt!" you might be shouting at your computer screen. True enough, the addition of Megas with a new playstyle gives many Pokémon an entirely new breath of life. Mega Evolution might help some Pokémon out of the bog of unremarkability. It is a once-per-battle limited tool, true enough, but average players go through hundreds of in-game battles, all the while rotating and changing their team, so they can try out every Mega they come across and use it to their heart's content without worrying if it is the optimal choice for that team composition.

**"When everybody is super - no one will be". Yes, I had to look it up too.
 
Well, from a competitive standpoint... this is part of the greatness of Smogon's tiering system. Flygon is a poor man's Garchomp in OU, but in UU it's totally unique and nothing else can do everything Flygon can. You can probably think of your own examples.

However, I can't think of too many Pokemon that have lost their uniqueness completely - paradoxically the few that have (looking at you, Lumineon) arguably become unique by their unrivalled genericness.
 
I think what is going to be really interesting is Gen 7 - or whatever else they decide to make of Gen 6 - seeing as how GF intentionally made it so the National Dex could be completed between XY and ORAS. To me it says that GF has decided to, more or less, make everything previous intentionally obsolete. Especially given that there was a lot of Kalos cross-over in Hoenn, I wouldn't be surprised if there was a giant retcon in store as they would like Gen 6 to be Gen 1 redux moving forward.
 
Can't tell if it's burnout or whatever, but I feel like there's just too many of everything. Too many moves, items, Pokemon, abilities, too many variables.

Getting individuals with certain attributes (be it a certain transfer only move, egg move, HA, gender, etc) is a huge headache. Battling makes me anxious thanks to how many variables there are (coming from a time when Thunderbolting a Gyarados meant it would KO, there sure are a lot of extra shit to think about before using that Thunderbolt), and I feel that when everyone can kill everyone else, the spirit of Pokemon is lost (the good old rock scissors paper; the complexity beneath the simplicity).

For a game made to appeal to Candy Crush players, it sure takes a lot of dedication.

Ironically, the more they add to the "skeleton", the less "meat" there is; what happened to the public battle videos, Battle Frontier, daily events, rematches, PWT...? This trend's happening since BW and I wish they'd focus on the features instead of new Pokemon and moves.
 

Celever

i am town
is a Community Contributor
Also, I honestly think that Nintendo should start making a lot of Pokémon each generation again. I don't think they will, but I think they should. In Gen 6 it seems like GF was very focused on making each and every Pokémon at least fairly unique (new type combinations such as Inkay line, Greninja, Amaura line and of course the Fairy-Type. New stat spreads for a typing such as Avalugg. New abilities for subcategory such as Bunnelby line.) but I don't think this is the right way to go about it. I don't want cloned stat spreads, movepools and the like at all, but I like having more generic, forgettable Pokémon mixed in with the fan favourites. It lets fans of said Pokémon root for the forgotten and hidden gem, support it, hoping that it might find new life later on (Mawile and Vulpix, anyone?). The sad thing is that I think GF new what they were doing when they made certain Pokémon generic. Think about it: Stantler is a generic Normal-Type. It has some gimmicks like Hypnosis and other Psychic-Attacks, but that's it. Where do you find it? One route, and you have to go out of your way to find the real grass there. Finneon - generic Water-Type. Swift Swim, poor stats and nothing overly special about the movepool (Quiver Dance NOW is too late). Where do you find it? A cave to the south of an unimportant pretty much starting town via fishing with a Good/Super Rod iirc. Who would really look there? Same for Chimecho -- average stats, nothing special with the moveset or abilities... Found in one place on top of Mt. Pyre or w/e it is.

GameFreak knows how to have a Pokémon make an impression, and on the less popular and somewhat forgotten Pokémon they are lacking this, shoved into one area with little incentive for a player to go searching for one. I think it's clear to seee that GF did this on purpose, and if they make less Pokémon designs, they only make it harder to have the "forgotten Pokémon" which is an aspect of the games at this point just as much as any other.
Codraroll I talked about the role of generic Pokémon earlier on in the thread (quoted above), but I will expand on it with your more exact topic...

There isn't a need for each Pokémon to be fully unique, and that is the magic of Pokémon. There are so many elements that go into each creature -- design, movepool, stats, typing, location, PokéDex entries, other surrounding lore and even fan theories which make every Pokémon inherently different from each other in some way. Just a couple, if not only one of the things listed need(s) to be present for a Pokémon to be unique. A great example that I can think of is actually the eeveelutions. They have fairly similar designs and almost identical movepools and lore. However, each one is loved individually just because of their unique typing and stats. Plus, there are also a hell of a lot of people who just like all of the eeveelutions and essentially consider them one Pokémon, like it's some kind of subcategory, which it actually is.

I actually think that having similar Pokémon is extremely healthy for the Pokémon franchise, and that having a distinct differentiation between every single Pokémon in the game is unnecessary. If Game Freak tries to follow the mindset that each and every Pokémon must be unique, they will be forced to keep developing new ideas, which will end with an incredibly over-complex game. There are already rodents and early route birds in every generation, and for the most part they all survive thanks to just a few differentiations: Pidgeot gained a mega-evolution, Noctowl is actually bulky and uses Psychic-Type attacks, Swellow is a total glass cannon, and is a bird which actually makes use of their Normal-Typing with Facade, Staraptor has the Reckless ability to make Brave Bird and Double-Edge really powerful, but more importantly for in-game, it learns Close Combat, Unfezant is a special bird, and Talonflame is a Fire-Type and it has Gale Wings. They are all fairly similar in design and have pretty much identical locations, but by changing just one or two aspects of the Pokémon, they each have their own personalities, and with it their own fans.

Now onto what you were talking about more specifically, and that is adding content to older Pokémon. Of course older Pokémon needed to be tweaked here and there to suit the power creep, but I think that so far Game Freak has actually being very good with how it has gone about things. I'm not really talking about mega-evolution, as I personally dislike the concept and think that it makes a lot more sense to just give old Pokémon new proper evolutions, but that's beside the point. Many older Pokémon are gaining subtle changes, like when some gen 1 Pokémon got a 10 point boost in one stat in XY, and the egg move additions etc.. Game Freak is buffing old Pokémon in a way which many more casual players won't even notice, and this is exactly what needs to be done. It is giving Pokémon unique attributes, while still maintaining their popularity throughout their fans by not changing them too much. In regards to this topic, GF's got the right idea.
 
This is a great topic. A few suggestions, some of which have been touched on by others here:

1. Pokemon needs a "color pie" like Magic the Gathering has, but for types. This already exists to some degree, but it needs to be a little stricter, I think. There are a few too many effects right now that are open to all the types. For example: make like 5 grass moves that have the "this attack can't miss" effect. It's OK to bleed this into other types like Normal on occasion, but make it so that when you hear "can't miss," you automatically think of grass, just like paralysis = electric.

2. Take a good, hard look on whether having EVs, IVs, and Natures are all worth it. EVs and Natures, while of course not the same mechanically, are very similar in spirit. I know GF liked pushing the "even pokemon of the same species and level are different" thing, but that may be an outdated principle with 1000+ pokemon. 1 of the 3 of these needs to go, and honestly I'd prefer 2 of the 3 to be eliminated. I don't feel strongly about which ones.

3. GF did a good job being willing to "reboot" old pokemon by increasing their stats to make up for power creep. I'd like to see them go much bolder and do some flavor reboots that make the game more intuitive. Make Gyarados part dragon and Florges part grass. Change the type of Mega Punch to fighting. Get rid of the Normal typing for most of the birds. Either Confuse Ray works on Normal types or Thunder Wave fails on Ground types, but not both. Rename "Steel" to "Metal," and for the love of god please make it weak to electric. I know some of these are tired topics, but good game design means things act the way players expect them to, and the less "unnatural" parts of the game players have to remember, the better.

4. I understand the above complaints about culling pokemon and moves, but let's at least combine items. All the weather rocks can be merged into literally just "Weather Rock" and they'd still operate the same 99% of the time. Do we really need two separate in-game items that restore 50 HP? Does the game really gain anything from Berry Juice?

5. Lower the maximum level to 80 or even 75. I know 100 is a nice round number, but the last 20 levels are extremely rarely, if ever, relevant in any of the games, and only serve to waste time and annoy people.

I think if we make some of the above changes to make the game simpler and more intuitive, the game will be able to handle additional attacks and such better.

The good news is that GF has shown the willingness to make convenient changes - like making TMs reusable - so I think there's a chance they'll handle this big issue well.
 
And some pokemon haven't gotten anything the OTHER way - seriously, why is Zapdos a SpA beast, gets 9 physical Flying moves, and not a single Special one? The other birds get Hurricane at least...

It's... hm.

I'll give in on the notion that reducing the number of Pokemon isn't going to happen, as much as I'd like to see some (Muk) disappear in favor of slightly more interesting designs (Garbador), but simplifying the movepools is something that COULD be done, and would make the whole game healthier.

If you look at most sets of moves for the types, you can see a pattern of what's healthy for each side:

0-2 Priority moves
1-2 Low-power (40-50) moves for starting Pokemon to have (Ember, Scratch, Water Gun, Powder Snow)
2 Baseline (70-90 BP, 100%) move for top-level play, which usually have a 10% chance of related statuses (Shadow Ball/Claw, Fire Punch/Flamethrower, Iron Head/Cannon)
1-3 Spread moves, depending on whether the Type is more physical or special - more powerful hits allied Pokemon, less powerful hits (Earthquake, Surf, Eruption, Hyper Voice)
1-6 Effect moves, that have an additional effect but have the damage or accuracy reduced off the baseline (Water Pulse, Icy Wind, Dragon Tail)
0-4 High damage moves, that exceed the baseline but have drawbacks :recoil, reduced accuracy, stat drops (Brave Bird, Blizzard, Overheat)
0-1 Perfect Accuracy (Swift, Magical Leaf)
1-x Unique moves that do something extraordinary for the type (Extremespeed, Aura Sphere)
0-x Legendary moves unique to only one or two Pokemon, that fit at a higher baseline than standard
0-2 Multi-hitting moves (Bone Rush, Doubleslap)
0-1 Trapping moves (Infestation, Wrap)

Fairy, right now, has the bare minimum: one low-power move, one spread move, two baseline moves (Play Rough is 90% accuracy because physical baseline is 70-75), one perfect accuracy, one effect move. But that's not a fair(y?) example, because it's only been around one gen. Let's look at Fire instead, which has bloated somewhat past what it needs.

For example, Flame Wheel. It fits into no good category - reduced below the baseline damage (Fire Punch), and still exists because, what, it's been there since Gen 2? Tradition by itself is not a valid reason for retaining something that's been rendered purely obsolete. Give the pokes that learn Flame Wheel Flame Charge instead and prune it. I could also question Blaze Kick, but not too seriously (+10 BP, +1 Crit, -10% acc fits within the guidelines of an effect move).

The REAL overlap comes in spread moves: there are SIX. Eruption, Fire Blast, Heat Wave, and Incinerate are all foe-only spread moves - why have four? Each has slightly different special effects, but you're not using a spread move to burn up berries or do minor amounts of typeless damage. Arguably, Eruption was a signature move... in Gen 3. Cut Fire Blast (hell, all three of the Blasts), and make it simpler. Heat Wave and Incinerate - one trades power for accuracy and special effect, so I'm not too opposed, but cutting one would make the whole thing cleaner.

What really burns my griddle is Incinerate and Searing Shot. Yes, the second is a signature move of Victini (why did a legendary need two signature moves starting in Gen5?), but for only 20 BP more you're complicating the game unnecessarily. Give it Incinerate and be done. The lower power compared to other hit-ally powers (surf, earthquake) is compensated for by that 30% burn chance.


The thing is, though, if you use this system, it's already reaching a top level where you can't add any more new moves because you'll have everything covered that you want the Type to do, and doing more bleeds it into another Type's zone. It sets a theoretical upper limit, which isn't a bad thing by itself, because it would force Game Freak to expand the game in a new direction aside from what has repeated for twenty years and seven generations: "We have new Pokemon, with new moves for them to learn! Gotta Catch 'Em All!"

...That review of ORAS we all laughed at: "7.1/10, too much water," should have said, "7.1/10, this is the same game that came out eleven years ago except for updated graphics to match the system and content to match the newest pokemon, exactly like Fire Red/Leaf Green did for the original Pokemon games. If you want to replay the same game and experience some nostalgia (with a SLIGHTLY different storyline), this is fine - or if you've never played a Pokemon game before, this is fine too. Otherwise, there's little to say about it: It's a remake Pokemon game."

And I say that and I'm enjoying the HELL out of it - and I want a remake of ALL the previous games in this style. But that doesn't mean I can't rationally recognize the inherent limitations of the Pokemon model, and it's hitting its upward limit.
 
1. Pokemon needs a "color pie" like Magic the Gathering has, but for types. This already exists to some degree, but it needs to be a little stricter, I think. There are a few too many effects right now that are open to all the types. For example: make like 5 grass moves that have the "this attack can't miss" effect. It's OK to bleed this into other types like Normal on occasion, but make it so that when you hear "can't miss," you automatically think of grass, just like paralysis = electric.
Doesn't this just exacerbate the problem of overcrowding by reducing the number of essentially distinct possible moves?

2. Take a good, hard look on whether having EVs, IVs, and Natures are all worth it. EVs and Natures, while of course not the same mechanically, are very similar in spirit. I know GF liked pushing the "even pokemon of the same species and level are different" thing, but that may be an outdated principle with 1000+ pokemon. 1 of the 3 of these needs to go, and honestly I'd prefer 2 of the 3 to be eliminated. I don't feel strongly about which ones.
If any of these went it would be IVs, but even then IVs don't really affect competitive play at all because they do not provide meaningful customisation options. 31/31/31/31/31/31 IVs are objectively best in all but a few select cases (Foul Play, Trick Room, Hidden Power, end list). As someone who plays casually on cartridges and competitively on Showdown this doesn't really bother me.

3. GF did a good job being willing to "reboot" old pokemon by increasing their stats to make up for power creep. I'd like to see them go much bolder and do some flavor reboots that make the game more intuitive. Make Gyarados part dragon and Florges part grass. Change the type of Mega Punch to fighting. Get rid of the Normal typing for most of the birds. Either Confuse Ray works on Normal types or Thunder Wave fails on Ground types, but not both. Rename "Steel" to "Metal," and for the love of god please make it weak to electric. I know some of these are tired topics, but good game design means things act the way players expect them to, and the less "unnatural" parts of the game players have to remember, the better.
Good game design means things act the way players expect them to.
Most players of each new Pokemon game have played previous games in the series.
These players will expect returning mechanics to work in exactly the same way they did in previous generations.
Therefore good game design means leaving returning mechanics unchanged.

4. I understand the above complaints about culling pokemon and moves, but let's at least combine items. All the weather rocks can be merged into literally just "Weather Rock" and they'd still operate the same 99% of the time. Do we really need two separate in-game items that restore 50 HP? Does the game really gain anything from Berry Juice?
Well Little Cup gains a TON from Berry Juice. But otherwise fair point about this one.

5. Lower the maximum level to 80 or even 75. I know 100 is a nice round number, but the last 20 levels are extremely rarely, if ever, relevant in any of the games, and only serve to waste time and annoy people.
It's not like having one arbitrary level cap is simpler/more complex/more content than another arbitrary level cap.
 
Doesn't this just exacerbate the problem of overcrowding by reducing the number of essentially distinct possible moves?
You're right that it does reduce the possible number of moves overall. I just think this is OK. If we need to reduce complexity, I'd rather slow down the number of new attacks per generation than the number of new pokemon. And I do think there's sufficient design space left - one can imagine attacks that care about a pokemon's primary type, attacks that play around with the STAB bonus of yourself or the opponent, attacks that are more powerful if they're used first, attacks that punish the opponent for not switching (reverse Pursuit), attacks that deal more damage to a switched pokemon (Pursuit that hits the switched instead of the one leaving), attacks that somehow make the typing of moves like Agility relevant, attacks that are more powerful depending on gender, and many others (these are all off the top of my head and may not all be good ideas).


Good game design means things act the way players expect them to.
Most players of each new Pokemon game have played previous games in the series.
These players will expect returning mechanics to work in exactly the same way they did in previous generations.
Therefore good game design means leaving returning mechanics unchanged.
This is a very fair point. I would just restate the OP's idea that we're talking really long-term here. While most of the people who will play Generation 7: Pokemon Hot Pink and Pokemon Neon Green have already played a previous game, the vast majority of the people who will play Generation 12: Pokemon Jupiter and Pokemon Saturn have not. By the year 2040, the vast majority of the people who will have thought "Wait, steel isn't weak to electric? Other than fire being weak to water, isn't that single the most obvious type relationship possible in the game?" haven't done so yet. Totally agreed there is a short-term cost to making changes like this, but I'd say it's better for the game in the long run.
 

Celever

i am town
is a Community Contributor
This is a great topic. A few suggestions, some of which have been touched on by others here:

1. Pokemon needs a "color pie" like Magic the Gathering has, but for types. This already exists to some degree, but it needs to be a little stricter, I think. There are a few too many effects right now that are open to all the types. For example: make like 5 grass moves that have the "this attack can't miss" effect. It's OK to bleed this into other types like Normal on occasion, but make it so that when you hear "can't miss," you automatically think of grass, just like paralysis = electric.

2. Take a good, hard look on whether having EVs, IVs, and Natures are all worth it. EVs and Natures, while of course not the same mechanically, are very similar in spirit. I know GF liked pushing the "even pokemon of the same species and level are different" thing, but that may be an outdated principle with 1000+ pokemon. 1 of the 3 of these needs to go, and honestly I'd prefer 2 of the 3 to be eliminated. I don't feel strongly about which ones.

3. GF did a good job being willing to "reboot" old pokemon by increasing their stats to make up for power creep. I'd like to see them go much bolder and do some flavor reboots that make the game more intuitive. Make Gyarados part dragon and Florges part grass. Change the type of Mega Punch to fighting. Get rid of the Normal typing for most of the birds. Either Confuse Ray works on Normal types or Thunder Wave fails on Ground types, but not both. Rename "Steel" to "Metal," and for the love of god please make it weak to electric. I know some of these are tired topics, but good game design means things act the way players expect them to, and the less "unnatural" parts of the game players have to remember, the better.

4. I understand the above complaints about culling pokemon and moves, but let's at least combine items. All the weather rocks can be merged into literally just "Weather Rock" and they'd still operate the same 99% of the time. Do we really need two separate in-game items that restore 50 HP? Does the game really gain anything from Berry Juice?

5. Lower the maximum level to 80 or even 75. I know 100 is a nice round number, but the last 20 levels are extremely rarely, if ever, relevant in any of the games, and only serve to waste time and annoy people.

I think if we make some of the above changes to make the game simpler and more intuitive, the game will be able to handle additional attacks and such better.

The good news is that GF has shown the willingness to make convenient changes - like making TMs reusable - so I think there's a chance they'll handle this big issue well.
1. This would ruin Pokémon. Every type is versatile, while still maintaining their own "stereotypes" if you like, many of which were posted in the thread here. Each typing already has its own "theme" with moves and stats while still being versatile enough so that many different Pokémon can exist with a typing and still have options. Forcing Pokémon within a type to follow a certain strategy will make Pokémon far more linear and predictable, while giving the franchise almost no appeal to buyers interested in getting into the franchise, which would be the point in simplifying the series. Sorry, but no.

2. Yes they are all worth it. EVs aren't really there to make the "perfect Pokémon" like you think they are. They are there so that the trainers can see their Pokémon developing and getting stronger, and not just +1 in each stat every level. It means that at level 100 two Pokémon with the same perfect IVs and Nature could still be different, and is an integral part of the Pokémon franchise by this stage. IVs DO give Pokémon that sense of personality and uniqueness in-game. Plus, gen 6 has made it much MUCH easier to breed perfect IVs onto a Pokémon. Natures are also important, because they give each Pokémon a sense of uniqueness while also being something a more casual player can check easily and change by catching another of the species until they find an at least decent nature. They all strive towards a similar goal, but by each playing different, actual and somewhat integral parts in it. IVs would be the only thing they could possibly axe of the three, but it would be a very poor decision on their part, because it is once again simplifying the games, and through simplifying the games it is not appealing to any new fans. They've already simplified the process of getting perfect IVs on a Pokémon heavily, so be happy with that.

3. That is literally the point of mega-evolutions -- giving old Pokémon a reboot more drastically. I also see absolutely no reason as to why you would want consistency with two completely different status conditions and whether they have an effect on typings which would otherwise be immune to the move's typing. Confusion isn't paralysis, so their mechanics are different, and their mechanics make sense. Also renaming Steel to Metal doesn't make sense, as they are pretty much the same thing. Also, as for your "make electric super-effective on steel" point, this may be part of the reason why the typing is called Steel and not Metal in the first place. As far as metals go, steel is pretty shit at conducting electricity. It still CAN, but not actually particularly well. As such, Electric-Type attacks are just neutral on Steel-Type Pokémon, and it works in terms of flavour. Steel also quite simply sounds better than Metal, particularly to a younger child.

4. No, don't combine items. There's a clear reason why each rock is separate, and that is because Game Freak doesn't want to restrict any possibilities. At official Pokémon tournaments, there's usually an item clause, so having just one item, the "Weather Rock", would eliminate the possibility of Dual Weather teams. Little Cup is also a licensed metagame by Game Freak (the Sunny Park Colosseum in Pokémon Battle Revolution hosts Little Cup matches once you beat the Stargazer Colosseum for the first time) so it would be silly to cull Berry Juice, as it was clearly created for that metagame in the first place.

5. No, 100 makes more sense than 80 or 75. Plus, Red's Pikachu is level 88, so the lowest round number they could reduce it to without killing a Pikachu is 90, and then what would happen if trainers want to transfer over level 100s from previous games? It also gives Pokémon less time to have level up moves on their learnset for no reason other than to stop their fans having to grind for that last 10 levels? I don't see any merit in it, whereas there is merit in keeping it right now.

The only change similar to the ones which you posted there which I would make is making HMs forgettable at will. It just makes sense and is convenient, and there is currently no merit in keeping the mechanics as they are right now. If you try to delete Dive or Surf while Diving or Surfing, the game should just say "do you want to drown?" and if the player answers yes the move is deleted, the Pokémon disappears from beneath you and you are returned to the title screen. Or, y'know, they can just put that generic "no, this person who didn't actually tell you this quote is telling you not to do it!" and the player will think nothing of it.
 
2. it would be a very poor decision on their part, because it is once again simplifying the games, and through simplifying the games it is not appealing to any new fans
The thesis of the idea presented by the original poster is that the increasing complexity of the game with successive generations presents a tangible danger to its future health. I thought the OP asserted his/her idea persuasively, especially since analogous effects have been documented in other contexts, including but not limited to other games. If you disagree with this premise, fair enough, but then there seems to be little point in debating specific action to remove complexities while maintaining the spirit of the game.

5. No, 100 makes more sense than 80 or 75. Plus, Red's Pikachu is level 88, so the lowest round number they could reduce it to without killing a Pikachu is 90, and then what would happen if trainers want to transfer over level 100s from previous games? It also gives Pokémon less time to have level up moves on their learnset for no reason other than to stop their fans having to grind for that last 10 levels? I don't see any merit in it, whereas there is merit in keeping it right now.
I'm quoting this of an instance of the myopia found throughout your argument. One trainer had a level 88 Pikachu in a game a couple generations ago - so what? Why should this be a constraint for future games?
 

Celever

i am town
is a Community Contributor
The thesis of the idea presented by the original poster is that the increasing complexity of the game with successive generations presents a tangible danger to its future health. I thought the OP asserted his/her idea persuasively, especially since analogous effects have been documented in other contexts, including but not limited to other games. If you disagree with this premise, fair enough, but then there seems to be little point in debating specific action to remove complexities while maintaining the spirit of the game.
Yes, however my point was that simplifying the games in the way it was described will not actually be more appealing to any gamers interested in getting back into the franchise, because it is essentially a hidden mechanic. IVs are not known to the player the first time they experience a Pokémon game, so removing them is removing complexity to no merit. It simplifies the game, and the only people who will know that the game was simplified at all are those who want it to be complex. It doesn't make sense and is negative any way you look at it.

I'm quoting this of an instance of the myopia found throughout your argument. One trainer had a level 88 Pikachu in a game a couple generations ago - so what? Why should this be a constraint for future games?
That's not the whole argument at all. The argument is that 100 is a nice, round number and it makes a lot more sense to keep it how it is for the sake of consistency when there is little-to-no gain by making the change. If a trainer has leveled up their favourite Pokémon to level 100, and then they transfer it to their current game and it is pushed down to level 75, how do you think they will feel? All the time spent leveling their Pokémon up the final 25 levels will be completely wasted. Also, like I mentioned before, it restricts the amount of moves Pokémon can learn via level up, which is another negative outcome of a change which I have yet to see a positive argument for. What, so that the trainer doesn't HAVE to level their Pokémon up all the way? They don't have to level it up either way -- the closest I've got to a level 100 is a level 98 Scyther. Keeping it how it is right now still leaves the option open for trainers to power their Pokémon up to the max without restricting anyone.
 

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