Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [Kyurem suspect now up]

[Avira]

zama should be re suspected soon. a lot has changed in a year. its recent ladder usage and tournament winrate / kd are insane, and the sheer versatility in its movepool (cc, id, bp, crunch, heavy slam, ice fang, rest, roar, stone edge) make it able to pick and choose its own counters. its just way too strong and bulky for how fast it is. and it snowballs so fucking quickly. ppl will say its “necessary” to check physical threats; i say if the sv ou ecosystem is dependent on an ubers level cover legendary to not fall apart, then maybe we need to take a step back and see if thats really healthy

tldr zamazenta does not “handle the cheap mons”, it IS the cheap mon. and it has far overstayed its welcome in this tier

If that's how you feel, be prepared for Ogerpon-Wellspring, Kingambit, and Roaring Moon to all be banned with Zamazenta's departure from the tier along with any other destabilizations these bans wil cause.

Personally, I do not believe Zamazenta is broken although I do believe it checks a helluva lot more powerful mons than Great Tusk does and is the glue holding the meta together (Yes, Zama is a better mon than Great Tusk).

I always thought Zama was used a lot less than it should be for how good it is, and it's only now when that has been reflected through its high usage landing it as the 4th most used mon.

 

[GummyRowlets]

If that's how you feel, be prepared for Kingambit, Ogerpon-Wellspring, and Roaring Moon to all be banned with Zamazenta's departure from the tier along with any other destabilizations these bans wil cause.

Personally, I do not believe Zamazenta is broken although I do believe it checks a helluva lot more powerful mons than Great Tusk does and is the glue holding the meta together.

I always thought Zama was used a lot less than it should be for how good it is, and it's only now when that has been reflected through its high usage landing it as the 4th most used mon.

A pokemon shouldn't stay because it checks other mons. We should instead just focus on whether instead of the pokemon is broken and if the metagame around it can handle it. Questions like this are all decent examples: Is the pokemon overwhelming to team building? Is this pokemon manageable enough for most teams to answer it? Is this Pokemon unhealthy to the meta game?. Keeping a pokemon because it checks other pokemon shouldn't be the reason why we keep it. Because at that point, we purposefully will build a metagame where we keep an unhealthy pokemon, who's presence overall is negative in the metagame. I don't personally have an opinion of Zama as of now so, no, I'm not in support of a ban incase anyone says that.

 

[Bold School]

If that's how you feel, be prepared for Ogerpon-Wellspring, Kingambit, and Roaring Moon to all be banned with Zamazenta's departure from the tier along with any other destabilizations these bans wil cause.

This probably isn't true. I don't feel Zama is broken, but Roaring Moon Acrobatics chews through it without Zama using an appropriate defensive Tera of its own. Zama isn't the thing saving the tier from that mon in particular.

Each of these mons also have cases to be banned with or without Zama. And we have other mons like Tusk and Valiant for Gambit. The implication that Zama is the only thing saving them from the banhammer seems quite dubious.

 

[Avira]

This probably isn't true. I don't feel Zama is broken, but Roaring Moon Acrobatics chews through it without Zama using an appropriate defensive Tera of its own. Zama isn't the thing saving the tier from that mon in particular.

Each of these mons also have cases to be banned with or without Zama. And we have other mons like Tusk and Valiant for Gambit. The implication that Zama is the only thing saving them from the banhammer seems quite dubious.

Kingambit was pretty oppressive before Waterpon was dropped into the tier with the much faster Encore. If it wasn't clear from my post, I was suggesting that those 3 would be banned in that order. Wellspring would likely go since Zama is the best initial switch-in to her for many teams out there.

With Zama and Ogerpon-Wellspring gone, Kingambit would almost certainly get banned. With Zama and Kingambit gone, that's one faster threat that could prevent Roaring Moon from setting up gone and Kingambit wouldn't be around to check it with Air Balloon or snipe it outright with Sucker Punch.

 

[TheTraininator]

I think suspecting Zamazenta is a mistake, personally. Ultimately I think it’s a healthy presence for the tier, even if it is a strong one. I think the arguments people were trying to use to defend Volcarona actually do apply to Zamazenta because it can’t just pick and choose its counters the way Volcarona could due to its setup potential being limited to boosting a single move with a very easy immunity to splash onto a team. Zam doesn’t have to be ID+BP of course; its traditional offensive sets are very solid too, but those trade off being a potentially effective wincon for more general versatility and speed control akin to how people are currently using Darkrai. As a result, I think the actual defensive utility Zamazenta provides to offensive teams is significantly more valuable to the metagame than Volcarona’s was considering it doesn’t (imo) come alongside a truly broken Pokémon. I’m sure people will disagree with me on this and I welcome that since Zamazenta is definitely a borderline case, but I think the likes of Waterpon and Kyurem both have an arguably more detrimental impact on the metagame than Zamazenta even if Zamazenta is arguably the best of the 3 at the moment.

 

[MC Squared]

Wait so after looking into it, they are doing a three-month shift apparently. Why are they doing this when typically tier changes happen every month? Why they sudden change?

Back in Gen 7, PokeaimMD/Joey manipulated the UU ladder and got Ambipom to rise to the tier within one month, from no usage to being in the Top 10 due to Joey making a video on him and then other players spamming him on ladder for the memes. So Smogon changed how rises/drops work once all tiers are established and only does rises every 3 months

 

[Blue glass]

Wait so after looking into it, they are doing a three-month shift apparently. Why are they doing this when typically tier changes happen every month? Why they sudden change?

It's normal procedure to only have rises and falls in a three-month shift, but DLC has disrupted that in last gen and in this one. Now we don't have anymore DLC until the end of the generation so we go back to normal and only have rises/falls in a three-months period.

Pokéaim's shenaningans only affected quickrises (that no longer exist), the 1:3:20 weights that were previously applied to the months and maybe the percentages to make a pokémon rise/ fall. Unless you are arguing that Ambipom to the top was so powerful that influenced smogon before Joey did it.

 

[Professor Suicune]

Back in Gen 7, PokeaimMD/Joey manipulated the UU ladder and got Ambipom to rise to the tier within one month, from no usage to being in the Top 10 due to Joey making a video on him and then other players spamming him on ladder for the memes. So Smogon changed how rises/drops work once all tiers are established and only does rises every 3 months

thats why hes the GOAT

 

[Professor Suicune]

If that's how you feel, be prepared for Ogerpon-Wellspring, Kingambit, and Roaring Moon to all be banned with Zamazenta's departure from the tier along with any other destabilizations these bans wil cause.

Personally, I do not believe Zamazenta is broken although I do believe it checks a helluva lot more powerful mons than Great Tusk does and is the glue holding the meta together (Yes, Zama is a better mon than Great Tusk).

I always thought Zama was used a lot less than it should be for how good it is, and it's only now when that has been reflected through its high usage landing it as the 4th most used mon.

all 3 of these mons have been suspected before, discussed for bans endlessly, and moon has actually been banned. i personally think zama is more broken, cheaper, less healthy, and less skillful than all 3 of those guys. so i wouldnt mind that 3 for 1 trade if thats what had to happen

but i dont necessarily think it would. Well, ogerpon wellspring should and will be suspected soon anyway, regardless of zama, but i think gambit and moon have enough defensive and offensive counterplay outside of zama to where i dont think the dog going would automatically mean they have to go too. but if they did, again, so be it

zamazenta is not the solution to this tier. we need to stop treating it like one. it is the problem.

 

[Professor Suicune]

all 3 of these mons have been suspected before, discussed for bans endlessly, and moon has actually been banned. i personally think zama is more broken, cheaper, less healthy, and less skillful than all 3 of those guys. so i wouldnt mind that 3 for 1 trade if thats what had to happen

but i dont necessarily think it would. Well, ogerpon wellspring should and will be suspected soon anyway, regardless of zama, but i think gambit and moon have enough defensive and offensive counterplay outside of zama to where i dont think the dog going would automatically mean they have to go too. but if they did, again, so be it

zamazenta is not the solution to this tier. we need to stop treating it like one. it is the problem.

like lets be real, zama isnt winning games bc of its healthy defensive capabilities, tanking hits from strong attackers and forcing them to switch, then switching out itself into an offensive teammate … no its just staying in and fucking sweeping lmao! the fact that it can use its gargantuan defenses and speed to set up safely on so many other mons is not a good thing!!

 

[Heatranator]

like lets be real, zama isnt winning games bc of its healthy defensive capabilities, tanking hits from strong attackers and forcing them to switch, then switching out itself into an offensive teammate … no its just staying in and fucking sweeping lmao! the fact that it can use its gargantuan defenses and speed to set up safely on so many other mons is not a good thing!!

Zamazenta is a mon that you have to respect in both the teambuilder and match while also being a top dog (pun WAS intended), but its not broken. It really hates the fact that ghold and dragapult (dragapult especially) are so popular and has to choose which moves it needs, which if it doesn't have the right one it will be screwed.
I think we can all agree the all out offensive set is not really broken, it can be countered by lando-t and gliscor quite easily and tusk can do pretty well against it.
The ID+BP set has to choose between heavy slam, crunch, sub, roar, ice fang and stone edge. If you don't have heavy slam, fairy types do amazing against you besides enam if you have stone edge. If you don't have crunch, dragapult and especially ghold sit on you. If you don't have sub, status screws you over seven ways and thus any paralysis spreader beats you (poison and burn mons can also work by it usually can tera for an immunity to that status). If you don't have roar, other defense boosting mons or boosting mons in general that resist your other moves can beat it. If it doesn't have ice fang, gliscor and lando-t just sit on it and chip it (knock+toxic for gliscor and rocky helmet+earth power for lando-t). If it doesn't have stone edge, zapdos sits on it forever and flying types do well against it as well. All these are important mons that can stop a sweep in its tracks, so it has to pick and choose its counterplay.
Zama does best into offense which kinda can't do much to it, but still have ways out such as using ghold or dragapult as soft checks. Any playstyle that has a fighting resist (which with zama, tusk and valiant in the tier, you should have) or a bulky mon that is neutral to fighting it struggles more against. A good win-con and a bulky mon, but not broken.

 

[Bold School]

Kingambit was pretty oppressive before Waterpon was dropped into the tier with the much faster Encore. If it wasn't clear from my post, I was suggesting that those 3 would be banned in that order. Wellspring would likely go since Zama is the best initial switch-in to her for many teams out there.

With Zama and Ogerpon-Wellspring gone, Kingambit would almost certainly get banned. With Zama and Kingambit gone, that's one faster threat that could prevent Roaring Moon from setting up gone and Kingambit wouldn't be around to check it with Air Balloon or snipe it outright with Sucker Punch.

I mean, I just disagree with this. Wellspring is rumored to be the next suspect regardless. It also isn't the only fastish Encore mon. Iron Valiant resists Sucker Punch and often carries Encore. If Wellspring was ever banned, Cornerstone would likely take its place to at least some degree. Great Tusk can fit on offensive teams. So many defensive walls carry Body Press. While there is perhaps an argument to be made that Gambit is too much in a Tera meta, it isn't due to lack of counterplay to it without Zama.

IMO, Roaring Moon is just flat broken with or without Zama. Tera Flying Acrobatics shreds Zama unless it is Tera Steel. And Zama isn't even faster if Moon is BE speed and/or gets the +1 from DD on the switch. Zama is a conditional soft check to RM at best.

Furthermore, I always thought just Sucker Punch it was a silly pretense of a check to Moon when the thing is naturally Dark type. You are relying on Moon to Tera, getting chip on it, and then it KOing 1 or 2 of your mons in the process before you can even revenge it. I understand the necessity of priority in the metagame, but the degree it is required on teams that aren't purely defensive isn't healthy in the first place. "Just priority it, bro", shouldn't be a justification for keeping a broken threat in the tier.

like lets be real, zama isnt winning games bc of its healthy defensive capabilities, tanking hits from strong attackers and forcing them to switch, then switching out itself into an offensive teammate … no its just staying in and fucking sweeping lmao! the fact that it can use its gargantuan defenses and speed to set up safely on so many other mons is not a good thing!!

The boosted metagame in gen 9 completely warps speed tiers. 138 speed sounds like a lot until you realize how easy it is for many of these mons to get to +1. And then both Pult and D-speed naturally outrun Zama and can status or Psycho Boost it.

 

[BolTingBlazie]

It is a tera hog, but sometimes its not worth teraing because you only might get 2 kills, so I think you have to make a business decision if you do decide to tera because it will usually only save you 1-2 turns.

Then again so is gambit, and I think as long as tera exists both are gonna be an issue


Also iron Crown would have risen if we had one month shifts, seems it beat fraud allegations

We are so Crownback

have we fixed gen 9 OU yet

Nope, tera is still here and Kyurem and Waterpon are too so only time will tell if the community makes the right calls with bans...

 

[GummyRowlets]

It's normal procedure to only have rises and falls in a three-month shift, but DLC has disrupted that in last gen and in this one. Now we don't have anymore DLC until the end of the generation so we go back to normal and only have rises/falls in a three-months period.

Pokéaim's shenaningans only affected quickrises (that no longer exist), the 1:3:20 weights that were previously applied to the months and maybe the percentages to make a pokémon rise/ fall. Unless you are arguing that Ambipom to the top was so powerful that influenced smogon before Joey did it.

Thanks for answering! Also Pokeaim isn't my fav poketuber anymore now because of this. My new fav is pinkacrossc

 

[Rekka's Backend]

RE:Zamazanta

I don't like it. But considering the sheer buffet of shitty powerhouses running around freely I rather play vs a mon I can cripple with status vs anything else. Or roar, etc. I think once a few other little cretins go it'll be worth looking at, but as of right now I rather see W-pon booted with Gambit than it.

To of course preface this too late, I personally hate Gambit and its presence for a multitude of reasons. But W-pon is absolutely the thing that should immediately go first, and likely Roaring Moon with it.

 

[YubelVT]

I think I've made a strictly worse version of SD Gliscor BUT it's better because you get to click a move called Crabhammer
Gliscor @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Crabhammer
- Swords Dance
- Protect
- Earthquake

Why would you use this over the normal SD set?
-Water is a good defensive typing
-You get to click Crabhammer
-Gliscor is a good pokemon no matter what combination of moves you put on it

Back in Gen 7, PokeaimMD/Joey manipulated the UU ladder and got Ambipom to rise to the tier within one month, from no usage to being in the Top 10 due to Joey making a video on him and then other players spamming him on ladder for the memes. So Smogon changed how rises/drops work once all tiers are established and only does rises every 3 months

Even before this, in Gen 5 RU one person made Metang rise by just playing a lot of battles with it. Which is just objectively funny

 

[Heatranator]

Even before this, in Gen 5 RU one person made Metang rise by just playing a lot of battles with it. Which is just objectively funny

And remember the whole SS Hitmonlee shtick with it rising to NU, a tier it absolutely should not have been in. I like the tiering system of smogon, but it is exploitable in some ways, though idk a better system so there isn't really a better option and these are usually the exception and not the norm.

 

[YubelVT]

And remember the whole SS Hitmonlee shtick with it rising to NU, a tier it absolutely should not have been in. I like the tiering system of smogon, but it is exploitable in some ways, though idk a better system so there isn't really a better option and these are usually the exception and not the norm.

Honestly, while it objectively is not a good thing, I like that a small amount of people can just make a shitmon rise through the ranks. I think it's really funny

 

[MC Squared]

And remember the whole SS Hitmonlee shtick with it rising to NU, a tier it absolutely should not have been in. I like the tiering system of smogon, but it is exploitable in some ways, though idk a better system so there isn't really a better option and these are usually the exception and not the norm.

Maybe lower the usage threshold back to 3.41% before they raised it in Gen 8. It means we can have more Pokémon in higher tiers

 

[Sheerluck Holmes]

Maybe lower the usage threshold back to 3.41% before they raised it in Gen 8. It means we can have more Pokémon in higher tiers

But that makes it easier to force shitmons higher.

 

[RS25802580]

If that's how you feel, be prepared for Ogerpon-Wellspring, Kingambit, and Roaring Moon to all be banned with Zamazenta's departure from the tier along with any other destabilizations these bans wil cause.

Let's keep in mind that defensive value should have no bearing on whether a mon is suspected or banned. If it's problematic, it should go no matter what mons it checks.

Tiering policy says that each problematic mon is evaluated in due order without guessing future hypotheticals of what might happen to the meta.

I know you weren't necessarily presenting this as a DNB argument, but many people do. It's something that inevitably makes its way into DNB rhetoric whenever a mon is discussed, despite being wholly unrelated to banworthiness.

 

[Karmazz]

Maybe lower the usage threshold back to 3.41% before they raised it in Gen 8. It means we can have more Pokémon in higher tiers

What would that accomplish? It wouldn’t add anything to OU because every lower tier mon can still be used in OU anyways. The only thing that would do is completely reshape the lower tiers. Getting top mons stolen is already a problem for them (see iron treads rising to OU, tinkaton rising to UU, etc.)

That’s also implying a bigger tier = a better tier. Threat saturation is already one of the biggest complaints this gen, why compound that.

 

[MC Squared]

What would that accomplish? It wouldn’t add anything to OU because every lower tier mon can still be used in OU anyways. The only thing that would do is completely reshape the lower tiers. Getting top mons stolen is already a problem for them (see iron treads rising to OU, tinkaton rising to UU, etc.)

That’s also implying a bigger tier = a better tier. Threat saturation is already one of the biggest complaints this gen, why compound that.

Those two Pokémon aren't the best examples because they're naturally excellent in the higher tier

 

[pika pal]

Those two Pokémon aren't the best examples because they're naturally excellent in the higher tier

The point remains there's no reason, practically speaking to try and get a Pokemon actually in a tier by usage, to the degree of making the cut off more lenient. Things downstairs can be used further up but not vice versa, so an OU-viable Pokemon being NU doesn't bar other tiers from using it the way a C-Rank OU mon being OU instead of RU does.

Ambipom, the Hitmons, Donphan, Gen 4 Electivire are all examples of Pokemon that are worse off for being in a higher tier by usage because that usage doesn't reflect their viability, it was inflated for the sake of meaninglessly listing them in a higher bracket.

 

[Bold School]

I wanted to take a moment to talk about Tera Blast on Normal types. With the mechanic of Tera, you can use it to get two different STAB coverages even in a choice locked set. My use of this on Indeedee made me look for other examples. I believe the reason why we don't see this more is the lack of viable normal types in OU. Blissey is the only one that is truly OU and it's a pure defensive mon. The only UU normal types are Ursaluna and, again, Indeedee. They can be used in OU, but both are limited to niches. In the case of Ursaluna in particular, it makes little sense. Its speed is too slow for a Choice Scarf set and it makes less than zero sense to run Choice Band over Guts Flame Orb.

The leaves us with 6 more niche lower tier mons that are maybe possible to use in OU under certain conditions. RU has Chansey, Cinccino, Maushold, Cyclizar, and H-Zoroark. Nu has Porygon-Z. Of these, the only two that make any sense for this TB strat are H-Zoroark and Porygon-Z. Chansey is maybe viable on that one hazard clear stall team where it wouldn't be required to run boots, but it is still a pure defensive mon. Maushold and Cinccino are Technician and/or Skill Link mons that would prefer to run better Normal type moves like Population Bomb or Tail Slap. Cyclizar has weak attacking stats and would really need something more powerful like Double Edge to do any decent damage.

Porygon Z starts pretty easy. Most sets run Tri Attack, so just replace that with a different 80 base power move. Or run both to have a Normal STAB for after you Tera. The difficulty there is the 90 speed tier being really bad for gen 9. You could maybe get around this a bit with Choice Scarf, but the boosted metagame wouldn't be very kind to it. Z might be better as a wallbreaker on webs. A lot of teams are designed to check physical attackers first, so having a strong special attacker could be nice either way. It would likely need its own dedicated team, though.

H-Zoroark is a bit trickier for me to figure out. My best guess is it would probably want Choice Specs for the power. I think the main niche would be the double surprise factor. You are surprised once by Illusion, maybe, and then Tera Blast switching type could mess with what the initial check should be. There is the possibility of mixed attacking, but this might be harder to justify on a choice locked set

For the record, I believe that Ghost is the best Tera type for this strategy. Plus, H-Zoroark in particular is already a Ghost type. So it would essentially get an Adaptability level boost. Porygon-Z already has the Adaptability ability, although Download is supposed to be better. Aside from Blissey, which can be crippled by Trick, the only types that resist Ghost moves are Dark types due to Normal types being so rare in gen9 OU. The only Dark type in OU that resists both Normal and Dark type STAB is Gambit. If you have a team that can deal with Gambit, or even somehow find a way to fit a Magnezone, that would make it so that you essentially have no resistance to this combination.

Of course, this is pure theory right now. I have not tested it yet. These mons tend to be lower tiered for a reason. I'm just brainstorming out loud right now. There is maybe room for more special attackers since the physical threats in this meta seem to carry the most weight overall.