Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

I think the considerable thing about Rillaboom is that Grassy Terrain is very much a double-edged Sword, but you really have to play to it to make the mon put in work. A decent couple mons definitely lose some teeth with Earthquake's power cut (Physical Lando, Dragonite into Steels, Iron Treads, Roaring Moon), as well as some defensive mons becoming EXTREMELY passive (or even more Passive) like Gliscor and Ting-Lu, which can open set-up/Revenge chances for things like Bulky Ghold, Booster Crown, or Raging Bolt.

At the same time, the Terrain can benefit opposing exploiters I mentioned if you throw Rillaboom around, as well as both sides standing to gain from things like Ogerpon-W or passive healing on bulky non-healers like Tusk, Zama, and Gambit.

I think Rilla's big issue there is that it's not bad, but the Terrain does A LOT more to consider in the Meta compared to something like Psyspam not having to worry about Psychic Terrain's effects enemy side or Past Gen Misty Terrain on Fini just being something you could account for in the teambuilding stage (i.e. don't depend on Status or load up on Dragon Attackers). While there were debates about a Theorymon Gen 9 Tapu Koko before, I could see Electric Terrain having the same issue, and we even see a bit of it with Sun teams having to deal with potentially boosting an Enemy Tusk or Bolt. Rillaboom genuinely requires you to build the team around it because Grassy Terrain is a factor that will typically outlast the Pokemon, positively or negatively.
 

I think this is the movement that Finch was talking about on his socials. While it may not be flashy or have an immediate effect on the tiers/community, its more of a means to improve the underlying mechanisms of how these tiers are formed which will take time for the fruits to bear. Things such as making sure council members frequently play the game they help build at a high enough level to properly assess its inner workings and to communicate more with the general public (something similar to what blunder called out during the second Kyurem suspect). I think the 'gambling' part refers to the act of directly/indirectly calling out his peers and how they will take the message on top of how these ideals can't be enforced in any concrete way. Best case scenario is that it leads to QoL improvements during the current gen and form the foundation of tiering action for Gen 10 and beyond. At worst, it may spark friction among those in the various councils that could turn into something nasty or Finch's call to action will just end up vindicating the chudjak posting.
Unless this has nothing to do what Finch was teasing and I'm jumping the gun.

Edit: Nvm. I'm wrong:regiF:
 
Last edited:
All I'm gonna say is that If that utter fraud Rillaboom isn't dropping even more subranks then something's wrong. Gets trolled by Moltres and Zapdos even without their abilities instantly screwing it over, and it's an extremely fake Wellspring check due to getting popped by Power Whip thanks to its own terrain. Easily the most fraudulent 'mon tiered in OU right now.

Oh, and Samu-H is lowkey S- material. Brainless Edge on top
Exactly - and it's great this way. Keeping Kyurem in the tier has been great keeping this ape at bay and I'm glad Moltres rose up to fill the Volc hole (for the most part - balance is still a lot weaker without Volc.) Overall much healthier than DLC1 where everybody spammed these gterrain teams bc the birds alone weren't enough to keep the style at bay. One of the many reasons the tier is in a much better place now than many previous iterations!


I think this is the movement that Finch was talking about on his socials. While it may not be flashy or have an immediate effect on the tiers/community, its more of a means to improve the underlying mechanisms of how these tiers are formed which will take time for the fruits to bear. Things such as making sure council members frequently play the game they help build at a high enough level to properly assess its inner workings and to communicate more with the general public (something similar to what blunder called out during the second Kyurem suspect). I think the 'gambling' part refers to the act of directly/indirectly calling out his peers and how they will take the message on top of how these ideals can't be enforced in any concrete way. Best case scenario is that it leads to QoL improvements during the current gen and form the foundation of tiering action for Gen 10 and beyond. At worst, it may spark friction among those in the various councils that could turn into something nasty or Finch's call to action will just end up vindicating the chudjak posting.
Unless this has nothing to do what Finch was teasing and I'm jumping the gun.
seems unrelated to me, finch implied that the tier would be "put in frenzy" and a lot of people would be playing, this thread is just a discussion with no call to action and has nothing to do with the ladder or larger playerbase. I do think it's a great discussion to start though
 
Last edited:
seems unrelated to me, finch implied that the tier would be "put in frenzy" and a lot of people would be playing, this thread is just a discussion with no call to action and has nothing to do with the ladder or larger playerbase. I do think it's a great discussion to start though
What if that is the big thing though and he gets pissed that everyone wants more? (xD)
 
Oh, and Samu-H is lowkey S- material. Brainless Edge on top

This. I experiment with a lot of VoltTurn comps, and I find it really difficult to leave out Samurott (at least the AV version) from my teams. It makes SpikeStack + VoltTurn really seamless, especially with spinblockers like Dragapult.
 
idk why people think Rillaboom deserves to drop lmao. Moltres gets completely ruined for the rest of the game if rillaboom goes for the obvious play of knock off and corv is a passive wall that can be exploited in a million different ways (aka U-turn). It has a lot of problems but it inherit strengths make B+ a fair assessment of its place in the meta rn. Also grassy terrain is really useful and it goes almost uncontested
Exactly - and it's great this way. Keeping Kyurem in the tier has been great keeping this ape at bay and I'm glad Moltres rose up to fill the Volc hole (for the most part - balance is still a lot weaker without Volc.) Overall much healthier than DLC1 where everybody spammed these gterrain teams bc the birds alone weren't enough to keep the style at bay. One of the many reasons the tier is in a much better place now than many previous iterations!
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Wood Hammer vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem in Grassy Terrain: 222-262 (56.7 - 67%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery

Kyurem is not a Rillaboom switch lmao, also if you think volc helped balance ur literally delusional
 
idk why people think Rillaboom deserves to drop lmao. Moltres gets completely ruined for the rest of the game if rillaboom goes for the obvious play of knock off and corv is a passive wall that can be exploited in a million different ways (aka U-turn). It has a lot of problems but it inherit strengths make B+ a fair assessment of its place in the meta rn. Also grassy terrain is really useful and it goes almost uncontested

252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Wood Hammer vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem in Grassy Terrain: 222-262 (56.7 - 67%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery

Kyurem is not a Rillaboom switch lmao, also if you think volc helped balance ur literally delusional
Volc was an amazing wincon on balance and served these teams very well by blanket checking physical attackers and leveraging this into a win with quiver dance. Volc appeared on many successful balance teams when it was legal and often was used with Hex mons like Ghold and Pult
 
Volc was an amazing wincon on balance and served these teams very well by blanket checking physical attackers and leveraging this into a win with quiver dance. Volc appeared on many successful balance teams when it was legal and often was used with Hex mons like Ghold and Pult
if you are using a mon with 85 hp and 65 defense as ur physical check you are doing something wrong, LMAO. Let's stop pretending like volc isn't a cheesy HO mon
 
if you are using a mon with 85 hp and 65 defense as ur physical check you are doing something wrong, LMAO. Let's stop pretending like volc isn't a cheesy HO mon
1733613404142.png
 
Volc fit into every archetype to some extent. That’s just historical fact
of course it CAN fit onto other archetypes, but the vast majority of the time it is used it is on hyper offense. Volc being used on a few select balance teams doesn't mean it makes the style better, which was the point I was trying to make
yeah, its almost like one of these has magic guard and can afford to invest a lot more in bulk, who would have thought
 
This is simply not true for Volc in SV (or SS for that matter). We saw Volc on stall and bulky offense plenty. HO wasn’t even most popular archetype for it at various points.
I'm actually curious, why was volc used on stall (I actually didn't know this enlighten me)
 
I'm actually curious, why was volc used on stall (I actually didn't know this enlighten me)
Volc was used on stall a lot historically.

In SM, it was done to check Grass Spam (Rilla + Kart) and Mega Mawile — MMaw in particular was hard for these teams to handle otherwise. It did mandate multiple Defog users back then.

With Boots in SS, it became a better option on stall as a win condition that resisted fairy, Grass (similar matchup dynamic to prior gen), and was less reliant of support. It was able to help with some longer games. It didn’t always fit though.

In SV, Volcarona was B- on the Big Stall Stall Viability Rankings before it was banned. It was mainly for role compression as it soft checked certain Kyurem, Valiant, Enamorus, Rillaboom, etc. while making Gambit and other physical attackers think twice about clicking contact moves. The image below is taken from their server from earlier in 2024 before the ban. It was definitely better on HO than Stall, but it saw a ton of usage on BO and even some on balance as well. Volcarona was never archetype locked (maybe in BW at times, but even then not fully).
my-image.png
 
Volc was used on stall a lot historically.

In SM, it was done to check Grass Spam (Rilla + Kart) and Mega Mawile — MMaw in particular was hard for these teams to handle otherwise. It did mandate multiple Defog users back then.

With Boots in SS, it became a better option on stall as a win condition that resisted fairy, Grass (similar matchup dynamic to prior gen), and was less reliant of support. It was able to help with some longer games. It didn’t always fit though.

In SV, Volcarona was B- on the Big Stall Stall Viability Rankings before it was banned. It was mainly for role compression as it soft checked certain Kyurem, Valiant, Enamorus, Rillaboom, etc. while making Gambit and other physical attackers think twice about clicking contact moves. The image below is taken from their server from earlier in 2024 before the ban. It was definitely better on HO than Stall, but it saw a ton of usage on BO and even some on balance as well. Volcarona was never archetype locked (maybe in BW at times, but even then not fully).View attachment 693465
Interesting! Thats actually pretty cool. I still think its fair to say more often that not, volc is used on offensive teams, but it certainly had more of a place on other builds than I originally thought.
 
I do like Corv, but IDK how to feel about it in the metagame.

On one hand, its got a great typing, some nice tools in Pressure, U-Turn, ID + BP, Spite, can largely negate hazards, and has some solid MUs into some great Pokemon like Gliscor, Pecharunt, Lokix, + does decent into a few others like Valiant, Kyurem, Rocks Tusk, etc. On the other hand, its still very prone to passive damage (from Rocks + potential chip from U-Turn vs Helmet mons), struggles to make progress on its own (due to no T-Wave, Wisp, Flame Body, Knock Off, etc. + its Helmet being prone to being Knocked Off), and most of the Pokemon it checks having some ways around it (i.e. Iron Valiant can run Thunderbolt, Zamazenta can run Roar, etc.). I also think Corv is the Pokemon thats probably most hurt by Tera as a mechanic since it can limit its progress making abilities vs setup sweepers even more.

I never really thought Gholdengo was the dealbreaker for Corv like others. Sure, it blocks Defog, but its not immediately dropping Corv with most of its standard options and Corv being able to pop its Balloon is still nice for various partners like Ting-Lu and Gliscor. That said, IMO its Landorus-T MU is pretty damn bad, as Lando-T prevents Corv from recovering with Taunt and will deal a net 28% to it between Helmet chip + Rocks every time it goes for that line. There are tons of other MUs where its annoying to click U-Turn, like against Gliscor + Clef teams since the sticky barb will easily transfer to Corv. Other mons like Raging Bolt and Garg can be annoying for it depending on the situation as well. There are many Pokemon that I feel have an easier time making Progress than Corviknight, like Skarmory with Spikes + Whirlwind, Moltres / Zapdos with status + Roar, and Gliscor between Spikes, Toxic, and Knock Off.

On the flipside, I will say that Corv just has excellent defensive synergy with a lot of Pokemon. IMO, its a great partner for a lot of offensive Pokemon like Darkrai, Kyurem, Raging Bolt & Hydrappl given its ability to pivot many of these Pokemon in safely with its U-Turn + having good defensive synergy with them generally. It also works fine with several defensive mons like Clefable, Clodsire, Gliscor, since, its pressure ability + typing is nice in longer games.

I think some of the newer sets we are seeing are somewhat nice for its general viability. I gave Spdef Bulk Up Cloak a try a while back, and it performed a bit better than I was expecting. The Spite Protect set on stall is also cool as a way to PP stall certain Pokemon. I think sets like these open up a fair deal more depth to Corv's game, and are cool to see this late into the generation.
 
I'm actually curious, why was volc used on stall (I actually didn't know this enlighten me)
It has a good matchup vs notable problem mons for stall like Rillaboom, Meowscarada, and Ghold as well as a really good matchup vs Kingambit, and more bulk and raw damage than Talonflame while still having access to wisp. it also provides an alternate wincon and forces the other player to play more reactively by threatening a QD snowball, QD also checking setup the same way CM blissey does, which can be key role compression. Morning sun also provides recovery without creating a ground vulnerability or lessening a grass resistance. Tera is customizable to deal with future sight or whatever else. The usual set was flamethrower/fiery, wisp, QD, and morning sun
 
you cannot tell me with a straight face that rillaboom is more fraudulent than meowscarada. at least what rilla does is entirely unique if nothing else
Like meow is a giga fraud, like it just misses out on kills it should be getting half the time

Like when a mon that is OU tiered has some really good UU mons who happen to be good in OU (Weavile and Tink come to mind immediately) it should probably drop


252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 88 Def Zamazenta in Grassy Terrain: 334-394 (86 - 101.5%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 88 Def Zamazenta in Grassy Terrain: 334-394 (86 - 101.5%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

These don't look like fraud numbers to me lol
you still have to predict, probably lowkey should drop to just straight b because with the right support and circumstances it can be a big threat

I think rilla is a B rank mon straight up for how annoying it can be to use but for how threatening it can be in the right matchup
 
Before the 2nd DLC, I believe, entry hazards seemed to be a large point of concern. The Gliscor ban and conversation around Gholdengo and Spikes/Heavy-Duty Boots seemed to be one of the biggest topics at that time and leading up to it.
I was wondering how the hazard metagame is considered now.

From my perspective, a meta with more hazards would skew towards a more offensive tier. The way I thought of it was: More Hazards means Less Switch-ins and Less Switch-ins means a faster paced game where defensive backbones would break apart more rapidly. To combat this, teams would use Heavy-Duty Boots, which would negate hazard's effect on switching in, but when HDB are used you sacrifice the ability for another item. In some cases that is fine and makes sense anywhere. Moltres being 4x weak to rocks being a key example, but other 'mons would rather have Leftovers or something else for more longevity or utility.

Of course there is the idea that Boots vs. Lefties is based on your teams hazard control and you don't need Boots. But this generation has been known for its poor hazard control. Mainly in how restricted the spread of hazard control moves is, but also how strong the spinblockers are. (I was going to have a detailed and statistical portion here, but this forum was locked when I had the energy).

So to wrap up,
In my eyes, the abundance of hazards helps guide the meta to be more offensive(not the main factor maybe, but definitely a factor) and, from what I've seen, that isn't favorable for quite a few people. I was wondering the opinions/understanding of players better than me(most if not everyone here) on the matter of Entry Hazards.
 
Volc was used on stall a lot historically.

In SM, it was done to check Grass Spam (Rilla + Kart) and Mega Mawile — MMaw in particular was hard for these teams to handle otherwise. It did mandate multiple Defog users back then.

With Boots in SS, it became a better option on stall as a win condition that resisted fairy, Grass (similar matchup dynamic to prior gen), and was less reliant of support. It was able to help with some longer games. It didn’t always fit though.

In SV, Volcarona was B- on the Big Stall Stall Viability Rankings before it was banned. It was mainly for role compression as it soft checked certain Kyurem, Valiant, Enamorus, Rillaboom, etc. while making Gambit and other physical attackers think twice about clicking contact moves. The image below is taken from their server from earlier in 2024 before the ban. It was definitely better on HO than Stall, but it saw a ton of usage on BO and even some on balance as well. Volcarona was never archetype locked (maybe in BW at times, but even then not fully).View attachment 693465
you've piqued my curiosity
in what world do we live in where Altaria has (or had) a stronger niche on Stall than Garganacal?
 
Back
Top