Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

you've piqued my curiosity
in what world do we live in where Altaria has (or had) a stronger niche on Stall than Garganacal?
It's more that garganacl doesn't really mesh well with stall. It absolutely needs hazard removal, is incredibly knock weak and is more of a balance mon in general. Salt cure and stealth rocks are nice progress makers, but the big issue is how much of a tera hog Garg is. Stall commonly wants to save tera for specific mons like gambit, ghold and waterpon, and Garg does not mesh well with that. It can work on stall, but its difficult.
Edit: Except for Carl The Turtle, but that's cause he's cracked.
Altaria on the other hand has defog, natural cure, roost and a variety of options such as wisp, haze, perish song+fire spin and a multitude of attacks to help with mons like Heatran and glowking that might be annoying. It's not amazing on stall, but it does have a decent niche.
 
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Why is meowscarada still rotting here whilst weavile, skeledirge and tinkaton are conquering UU despite having valuable niches in higher tiers, bro might be gen 9’s electivire
Because Meow is still actually usable, even if not particularly spectacular. It's defenitely getting more usage than many would expect, but to compare it to DPP Electivire is a ginormous stretch. Unless that was done solely for hyperbole's sake, in which case, fair enough.
 
Because Meow is still actually usable, even if not particularly spectacular. It's defenitely getting more usage than many would expect, but to compare it to DPP Electivire is a ginormous stretch. Unless that was done solely for hyperbole's sake, in which case, fair enough.
Its usable but its not good, still debatably a noob trap mon as much as it pains me to say it
 
Sorry, I misspoke. Meant to say Bulu, which was used for Grassy Terrain that Gen
Who is Bulu? I thought the last Tapu was Rillaboom?

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Why magnezone is the worst pokemon to use in OU (hyperbole intended)

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Reason 1: Outclassed as a steel trapper
For 4 generations, magnezone managed to secure a spot at the end of each metagame as an OU mon because of it being the best legal trapper

But that has change, magnezone has found itself outclassed by the bottom of the barrel, for they have options that zone doesn’t
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What all the magnet pullers that outclass zone have in common is that they are all in zeroused and two of them are unviable there
But why do they outdo mag? What makes these crapmons better?

Well first off, they have better bulk, golem may get thrashed by special moves at least it can a hit on the physical side, probopass has 150 defenses which makes it far superior at taking non super effective hits, magneton may have less bulk normally but with eviolite it can actually survive hits from kingambit, a pokemon magnezone would WANT to trap but ends up getting 2hko’d by even with defensive iron press, not to mention probopass has pain split

Secondly, Golem and probopass have better offensive presences despite pass having 75 special attack, they have rock stab (probopass can even use meteor beam) and actual coverage like ground moves with golem also having fire punch for steels

Thirdly magneton may have less special attack and the same stabs, but it has 70 speed which means it can outspeed skarm without investment and can use scarf better if it wants to


Finally, Golem and probopass have more utility outisde of magnet pull, they can get rocks up, golem has roar and rapid spin and probopass has taunt to mess up stall and bulky balance
Reason 2: steel trapping isn’t a valid niche
If you were wondering why I made the claim that pokemon without any niche in OU outclassed magnezone, its because magnezone is a pokemon without any niche in OU, all relevant steel types have ways to crush magnezone and its fellow trappers

:Iron Crown: Has a powerful focus blast that has a 30% chance of hitting
:Kingambit: Too powerful and bulky to be trapped reliably, can easily set up and even tank a boosted iron defense
:Corviknight: has body press and can u turn on slower sets
:Skarmory: Has a powerful body press
:Gholdengo: Completely immune to trapping and hits too hard
:Iron Treads: Ground type with volt switch
:Tinkaton: Can troll with knock off and encore, also just a utility lead
:Cobalion: Bulky fighting type with volt switch, can also use weaker sets as stealth rock fodder
:Heatran: Fire type that can trap back

:Scizor: Has close combat and U-turn, commonly runs max speed too
:Excadrill: Ground type that can get a free rapid spin
:Empoleon: Naturally strong surf that cannot easily be switched into and has flip turn
:Goodra-Hisui: Too bulky to remove and has earth power
:Bisharp: Has eviolite to wall and hits too hard

And every other steel type doesn’t matter enough, with some even having ways around zone too, meaning even the low ladder player’s forretress isn’t free eats
Reason 3: It has no other niche
Let me show you a non magnet pull set
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Magnezone @ Leftovers
Ability: Analytic
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Protect
- Thunderbolt
- Flash Cannon
This is borderline unusable, it has no chance of surviving non resisted special moves and is constantly hiding behind its sub while spamming protect, just so it can recover hp and have a chance of actually attacking, analytic may be a mini stakeout but that doesn’t matter when your stab combo is so bad, this isn’t helped by magnezone having no coverage, therefore meaning it gets walled by electric types, its tera type is electric because any tera type is unneeded, it cannot afford to run tera blast and has no bulk which means no defensive tera, therefore it needs tera electric to boost thunderbolt (because discharge isn’t strong enough despite its para chance). It also needs so much support to work when it should be supporting its teammates

The worst part is that this is just a knock off iron crown, theres no reason to use this over crown when it provides more utility

Reason 4: Super effective moves are everywhere and Magnezone can’t handle them even with tera

If a pokemon has usable ground coverage, it will have a set running it, this means any mon running ground coverage auto checks magnezone without even trying as magnezone can’t afford running air balloon and it has no bulk (70 155 90 is straight up frail)

Here is every ou mon that hit magnezone super effectively
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And thats just the pokemon ranked in OU, if I listed the viable pokemon that hit zone super effectively, we would already be on page 651!

While this is just a generalization as not every mon would run moves that slam magnezone, the fact is that only a few wouldn’t be using fire, fighting or ground moves and magnezone has no way around those moves outside of tera which can be used on other pokemon that use the tera slot more efficently like kingambit who has priority, better resistances and actual bulk without the unpredictability of tera , making magnezone a tera hog
Conclusion
I’d say magnezone needs to go and flip burgers, but the grill would hit it super effectively
 
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^ I disagree. Magnezone is bad, but the main reaosn for that is that every Steel can Tera and avoid the trap. It still has some niches:

Skarmory and Pdef Corviknight actually fold to Specs Zone, unless they Tera.
Kingambit folds to Iron Defense unless it Teras, though its likely that Magnezone has to Tera too to reliably trap it.
Iron Clown does smash Magnezone, but its Specs set has to play very carefully, its forced to use Volt Switch or Focus Blast, otherwise it gets trapped.
Tinkaton gets completely humillated by Zone, its the easiest target. Magnezone doesn,t care about losing its item, as long as it traps Tinkaton and either kills it or forces it to Tera (which is a big opportunity cost, Tinkaton is not a good Tera Mon).

Also, that Analytic set is certainly bad, but Specs + Analytic actually does respectable damage to everything if you predict well enough:

252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Tera Steel Magnezone Steel Beam vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 382-450 (58.5 - 69%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Zone is indeed bad, but he is still the better Magnet Puller, even if that niche isn,t good this Gen.

Also, speaking of Alolan Golem, just like Alolan Muk, it would have been extremely heat in SS OU, a shame it never got released last Gen. Sdef Corvi + Scarf Alolan Golem = Heatran and Magnezone are dead.
 
^ I disagree. Magnezone is bad, but the main reaosn for that is that every Steel can Tera and avoid the trap. It still has some niches:

Skarmory and Pdef Corviknight actually fold to Specs Zone, unless they Tera.
Kingambit folds to Iron Defense unless it Teras, though its likely that Magnezone has to Tera too to reliably trap it.
Iron Clown does smash Magnezone, but its Specs set has to play very carefully, its forced to use Volt Switch or Focus Blast, otherwise it gets trapped.
Tinkaton gets completely humillated by Zone, its the easiest target. Magnezone doesn,t care about losing its item, as long as it traps Tinkaton and either kills it or forces it to Tera (which is a big opportunity cost, Tinkaton is not a good Tera Mon).

Also, that Analytic set is certainly bad, but Specs + Analytic actually does respectable damage to everything if you predict well enough:

252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Tera Steel Magnezone Steel Beam vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 382-450 (58.5 - 69%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Zone is indeed bad, but he is still the better Magnet Puller, even if that niche isn,t good this Gen.

Also, speaking of Alolan Golem, just like Alolan Muk, it would have been extremely heat in SS OU, a shame it never got released last Gen. Sdef Corvi + Scarf Alolan Golem = Heatran and Magnezone are dead.
unfortunately, there has been a lapse in your judgement

Choice specs magnezone may seem like a diamond that has dusted to the point of being confused for plastic, but it is a burden upon its very greatest allies and can guarantee a loss of elo and sanity due to its lack of speed or ability to survive any non resisted hit, this is what band golem is for

the fact that it needs so much just to leave a lasting dent upon stall even compared to its buried brethren proves that it is capable of nothing, that everything it wants to do is either something it does worse than even the weakest creatures we could possibly utilise or something that is entirely inutile without even a nanosecond resembling a slight glimmer of value in this endless circle of crystals and stones we call a metagame

Furthermore, its only niche is downright Sisyphean, as specs may threaten skarmory and certain corviknight sets, but that leaves it struggling to reliably take down tinkaton and without the chance of even looking a iron crown or kingambit in the face without its very core shivering so hard that it nearly rips itself out just to escape what it should be stopping
As for iron press, it may have a chance of doing something of value in the anti kingambit effort, but it shall face immense struggle doing anything against the brds without electric stab or reliably stopping tinkaton

The only people using magnezone are not people looking for a hole to fill within their structures, but rather those who dig within nu for every pokemon trapped there just to find zone, digging past all the copper just to find a little pebble that was once apart of a mountain, for there is no niche, no role, no home, it has nothing but its slow and rightfully painful fall below tiering as a whole

All of this of course, is simply for the sake of muddy hyperbole.


Also, theres nothing stopping you from using Sdef Corvi + Scarf Alolan Golem right now, its still heat
 
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unfortunately, there has been a lapse in your judgement

Choice specs magnezone may seem like a diamond that has dusted to the point of being confused for plastic, but it is a burden upon its very greatest allies and can guarantee a loss of elo and sanity due to its lack of speed or ability to survive any non resisted hit, this is what band golem is for

the fact that it needs so much just to leave a lasting dent upon stall even compared to its buried brethren proves that it is capable of nothing, that everything it wants to do is either something it does worse than even the weakest creatures we could possibly utilise or something that is entirely inutile without even a nanosecond resembling a slight glimmer of value in this endless circle of crystals and stones we call a metagame

Furthermore, its only niche is downright Sisyphean, as specs may threaten skarmory and certain corviknight sets, but that leaves it struggling to reliably take down tinkaton and without the chance of even looking a iron crown or kingambit in the face without its very core shivering so hard that it nearly rips itself out just to escape what it should be stopping
As for iron press, it may have a chance of doing something of value in the anti kingambit effort, but it shall face immense struggle doing anything against the brds without electric stab or reliably stopping tinkaton

The only people using magnezone are not people looking for a hole to fill within their structures, but rather those who dig within nu for every pokemon trapped there just to find zone, digging past all the copper just to find a little pebble that was once apart of a mountain, for there is no niche, no role, no home, it has nothing but its slow and rightfully painful fall below tiering as a whole

All of this of course, is simply for the sake of muddy hyperbole.


Also, theres nothing stopping you from using Sdef Corvi + Scarf Alolan Golem right now, its still heat
Can you speak in real english bro? It's actually tilting me reading this.
 
Why're you guys acting like it was Shakespearean English or something, seems perfectly understandable to me. Also, Magnezone sucks because it only does something like 10% of the time, the rest you're facing either fat which can just wall you with whatever, or HO which can easily kill you because of your low speed and bad defenses.
 
Why're you guys acting like it was Shakespearean English or something, seems perfectly understandable to me. Also, Magnezone sucks because it only does something like 10% of the time, the rest you're facing either fat which can just wall you with whatever, or HO which can easily kill you because of your low speed and bad defenses.
Poor Magnezone ;-;. Was considered one of the best trappers for OU since Gen 4 and now due to Tera and power creep its once good stats can't keep up
 
Poor Magnezone ;-;. Was considered one of the best trappers for OU since Gen 4 and now due to Tera and power creep its once good stats can't keep up
This is why Arena Trap and Shadow Tag need to be unbanned. The ability to trap certain threats is key to a healthy meta.*

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Rillaboom @ Leftovers
Ability: Grassy Surge
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 160 SpD / 92 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Bulk Up
- Drain Punch
- Grassy Glide
- Taunt

Theoretically beats stall. Very unique mon due to its passive healing, sort of like Gliscor. I think more creative Rillaboom sets are key to revitalizing this classic mon.

*joke
 
This is why Arena Trap and Shadow Tag need to be unbanned. The ability to trap certain threats is key to a healthy meta.*

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Rillaboom @ Leftovers
Ability: Grassy Surge
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 160 SpD / 92 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Bulk Up
- Drain Punch
- Grassy Glide
- Taunt

Theoretically beats stall. Very unique mon due to its passive healing, sort of like Gliscor. I think more creative Rillaboom sets are key to revitalizing this classic mon.

*joke
Here is another Rillaboom set really good against stall, be prepared everyone it's a deep cut and very new innovation
Rillaboom @ Choice Band
Ability: Grassy Surge
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Wood Hammer
- Knock Off
- U-Turn
- Grassy Glide
 
Here is another Rillaboom set really good against stall, be prepared everyone it's a deep cut and very new innovation
Rillaboom @ Choice Band
Ability: Grassy Surge
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Wood Hammer
- Knock Off
- U-Turn
- Grassy Glide
tbh I forgot about cb. yeah rilla has only two sets pretty much. band and extender.
 
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What is Shelob doing? Seriously, unless rain is up and Water Bubble is going hard, I don't see what an alright bug type is shaking up in terms of OU.
Maybe I'm misinformed...
araquanid the goat of webs

better setter than ribombee, can switch in several times or takes out the rockers, water bubble makes you hit harder than ribombee ever could with moonblast, tanky enough to make effective use of custap, and webs is a good enough archetype because there are a lot of strong not so fast pokemon and it messes with speed boosted paradox forms so you can opt out of the speed arms race
 
Here is another Rillaboom set really good against stall, be prepared everyone it's a deep cut and very new innovation
Rillaboom @ Choice Band
Ability: Grassy Surge
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Wood Hammer
- Knock Off
- U-Turn
- Grassy Glide
whoa that's some pretty crazy tech, this might even be as broken as chi-yu or solgaleo
 
Rillaboom @ Choice Band
Ability: Grassy Surge
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Wood Hammer
- Knock Off
- U-Turn
- Grassy Glide
Jolly CB Rilla instead of Adamant is a brilliant innovation here. I cannot stress enough how game changing it is to hit stall staples like Dondozo, Clodsire, and Blissey first with Grassy Glide on Jolly sets instead of Adamant ones being outsped.

However, it still isn't enough. Rillaboom is garbage because of calcs like these:
252 SpA Choice Specs Tera Ice Blissey Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Rillaboom: 408-482 (119.6 - 141.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Unviable fraud mon, deserves to be UU.
 
Jolly CB Rilla instead of Adamant is a brilliant innovation here. I cannot stress enough how game changing it is to hit stall staples like Dondozo, Clodsire, and Blissey first with Grassy Glide on Jolly sets instead of Adamant ones being outsped.

However, it still isn't enough. Rillaboom is garbage because of calcs like these:
252 SpA Choice Specs Tera Ice Blissey Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Rillaboom: 408-482 (119.6 - 141.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Unviable fraud mon, deserves to be UU.
Jolly also outspeeds Ghold and ties Hamu if you want a real reason
 
Jolly also outspeeds Ghold and ties Hamu if you want a real reason

If it wasn't clear, you were responding to a meme/joke post. It wasn't meant to be replied to with in a serious way.

To be on topic, I see a number of Great Tusk using Rocky Helmet on offensive tusk, and considering the upswing in Webs, I'm wondering why this is happening. You'd think people would stick with Heavy-Duty Boots when there's an upswing in that archetype. Is getting chip from physical attackers that hit Tusk really that important?
 
Poor Magnezone ;-;. Was considered one of the best trappers for OU since Gen 4 and now due to Tera and power creep its once good stats can't keep up
Honestly, the main issue is that there's no steel types it can trap to support its team. Historical targets for Zone to trap like Ferro and Skarm/Corv aren't as common or impactful that eliminating them opens up dangerous threats. Corv/Skarm are not the premier physical wall anymore, Ferro isn't in the game, Gambit is too strong for Zone, Ghold can't be trapped, etc. Zone lives and dies by its ability to trap steels and that ability just isn't as useful in this meta.
 
Interesting! Thats actually pretty cool. I still think its fair to say more often that not, volc is used on offensive teams, but it certainly had more of a place on other builds than I originally thought.

Finch obviously gave you a really good answer about Volc specifically, but it's not too uncommon to see Stall utilize SOME level of offensive pressure at times, often for the purpose of removing very specific threats to the archetype and allowing the traditional Stall mons (Blissey, your Unaware walls, Corv/Zap/Skarm, etc.) to more freely sit in front of the opponent's team.

A few examples off the top of my head include:

  • Highv0ltag3's Meowscarada Semi-Stall, which could use its insane coverage to deal with threats like Gliscor, DNite, and Raging Bolt while removing items with Knock.
  • ABR's Weavile Stall back in ORAS, which could eliminate faster, disruptive threats to Stall like Taunt Torn-T, Hoopa-U (I believe Hoopa was still legal in ORAS when this team started doing things), etc. with Pursuit and its good STABs.
  • Dugtrio (or, rather, Arena Trap), a mon that Stall often relied on throughout Gens 7 to 4 (going backwards is relevant to this discussion) to handle threats like Taunt+Magma Storm Heatran that gave the archetype hell. You'd basically trap something like the aforementioned Heatran that could easily break the team and then suddenly the team would be in a prime position to just sit on your opponent and win the war of attrition with PP and passive damage alike.
And even now, although Stall's not very good in this meta, you see some threats that aren't exactly passive although they're commonly used defensively. Curse Dondozo is an absolute nightmare to deal with if your special attackers and Stallbreakers got dealt with because eventually it's not only not dying but also hitting very hard. Kingambit's used occasionally on specific Stalls because it has an excellent set of resistances to Ghold's STABs and Psyshock, Gambit's own STABs, Pult's STABs, etc. And, of course, Volc had its place as Finch explained so well.

At the end of the day, even if a mon isn't explicitly "defensive" in nature it can provide some seriously good defensive utility by virtue of getting rid of overwhelming offensive threats. That's why Gambit's the face of Offense in SV OU, after all.
 
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