Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

Status
Not open for further replies.
Time to make a bad opinion I will regret later when ladder stops spamming sun, but from my testing and my facing of Mr Wake, I have to feel that he has been misjudged because he is not broken right now but likely will be later. right now every team is using wake+hatt (I was using eject scream tail and I saw vert using just lefties scream tail for it), it means you always have to play a guessing game with it while also it not being that amazing vs teams with good prio/pex/amoong and slowking. This is due to it using +speed proto for the amount of offense going around rn. My preferred set and (most likely the set that might actually make it broken when people start using other playstyles) is the modest specs Tera water(in sun)or dragon (outside sun) set that can effortlessly throttle defensive teams while being decent vs offense with a nice speed tier and decent bulk. While this is fairly speculative (though I have been using it a bit), I found it amazing right now on ladder with the offensive teams being spammed and there will be a natural return to more balanced/bulkier playstyles that this set obviously takes advantage off, and I don’t see any way for these teams to answer this without running specific sets with Tera’s like Tera fairy clod/Tera water blissey, etc. basically speed boosting is good but not broken, spa boosting specs either modest/timid creates a unhealthy mu vs bulkier teams where they can’t reasonably handle it without running specific niche checks
 
You know, it might not be OU, but Slowking should be able to mess with Wake a good bit. High special bulk + Regenerator + Chilly Reception means it can switch in safely and switch out while resetting the weather, and it can safely come in on Torkoal to begin with to stop Wake from even getting started.
And it's not like he's completely useless in OU outside that given how useful Future Sight + pivoting can be. Has anyone given him a shot?
 
walking wake is fine. being amazing = / = broken

specs is a powerful attacker but i don't think it's unhealthy. there's definitely counter-play for this thing like slowking, azumarill, or just out-maneuvering it with any well-built team structure (walking wake is locking into either hydro pump or draco meteor). toxapex is also a fine pivot and a lot of players can't seem to let go of it even post-pao ban! your toxapex now has a defined niche, congrats! speaking of chien-pao, walking wake is not some auto-kill button like choice band chien-pao was; there was, in fact, a large group of players including myself who thought that was fine too. the fact that people find this broken in comparison is honestly just sad

if you're going to advocate for a walking wake ban, it'd have to be the hydro steam sun set

walking wake in sun is very good, borderline S-rank threat but at the end of the day sun is still sun and this archetype is very flawed in itself as it still folds to common threats like dragonite and volcarona. volcarona is using bug buzz now which is a healthy development as that pokemon is cheap as fuck. there's nothing wrong with sun being a top 5 archetype. sun is very volatile & walking wake wants to use +speed proto 70% of the time in the metagame's current landscape.

the aforementioned slowking completely shits on sun teams and i've seen quite a lot of hippowdon and tyranitar as sun is a TERRIBLE archetype when your 'mons are not getting the protosynthesis boost. someone is going to say "well being forced to use sand is a testament by itself" but god this metagame is in dire need for a shift. hippowdon and tyranitar are not bad 'mons at all (unlike *cough tauros) and i have been using other cool developments like water absorb clodsire and specially defensive scream tail for sun mirrors. this is only a couple hours in and i guarantee we are going to find more answers as time goes on.

at the end of the day i know some kid is gonna start posting some modest choice specs +SpA protosynthesis tera-water hydro steam calc and use that as his entire argument to why it's broken but idk i don't think this 'mon is all that bad in practice.

i really don't.
 
Last edited:
walking wake is fine. being amazing = / = broken

specs is a powerful attacker but i don't think it's unhealthy. there's definitely counter-play for this thing like slowking, azumarill, or just out-maneuvering it with any well-built team structure. walking wake is locking into either hydro pump or draco meteor. toxapex is also a fine pivot and a lot of players can't seem to let go of it even post-pao ban! your toxapex now has a defined niche, congrats! speaking of chien-pao, walking wake is not some auto-kill button like choice band chien-pao was; there was, in fact, a large group of players including myself who thought that was fine too. the fact that people find this broken in comparison is honestly just sad

if you're going to advocate for a walking wake ban, it'd have to be the hydro steam sun set

walking wake in sun is very good, borderline S-rank threat but at the end of the day sun is still sun and this archetype is very flawed in itself as it still folds to common threats like dragonite and volcarona. volcarona is using bug buzz now which is a healthy development in itself as that pokemon is cheap as fuck. sun is very volatile and this is coming from a major sun user myself. there's nothing wrong with sun being a top 5 archetype.

the aforementioned slowking completely shits on sun teams and i've seen quite a lot of hippowdon and tyranitar as sun is a TERRIBLE archetype when your 'mons are not getting the protosynthesis boost. someone is going to say "well being forced to use sand is a testament by itself" but god this metagame is in need for a dire shift. hippowdon and tyranitar are not bad 'mons at all (unlike *cough tauros) and i have been using other cool developments like water absorb clodsire and specially defensive scream tail for sun mirrors. this is only a couple hours in and i guarantee we are going to find more answers as time goes on.

at the end of the day i know some kid is gonna start posting some modest choice specs +SpA protosynthesis tera-water hydro steam calc and use that as his entire argument to why it's broken but idk i don't think this 'mon is all that bad.

i really don't.
Amen! Need more like him here.
 
walking wake in sun is very good, borderline S-rank threat but at the end of the day sun is still sun and this archetype is very flawed in itself as it still folds to common threats like dragonite and volcarona.
mentions two mons that lose to wake without batting an eye. truly a wonderful world we live in.
 
mentions two mons that lose to wake without batting an eye. truly a wonderful world we live in.
i said sun as an archetype loses to dragonite and volcarona. i never said dragonite and volcarona are switch-ins to walking wake. plus walking wake can't even check either properly as dragonite has multiscale + tera-normal extreme speed, while volcarona abuses unrestricted tera to its maximum to 1v1 it then sweep the rest of your sun team.

i'd appreciate if you read my post properly instead of quoting 1-line you misinterpreted to fish for a higher reaction score
 
To reach with both sides of the crowd, offensively like Vert said it's bordering S rank, offensively it can almost do it all. I'm not going to do any calcs but I'm sure Clodsire, Blissey, and Slowking can take it on pretty well. I think since 8 hours ago, I've seen an insane uptick of sun teams that I have not seen before, technically Walking Wake can run Booster Energy but why haven't I seen it? It's because of Hydro Steam, the shit is wack as hell. Base 120 power under the sun with the ability to Proto on Speed or Sp. Att is pretty overwhelming if you're team isn't prepared.

I think since it's the first day certain defensive cores are going to change because of the straight dominance of preparing for Hydro Steam / Sun in general. So I feel like once people get used to using these defensive cores (I've been using Amoonguss / Water Absorb Clodsire personally) the perception of how powerful Christopher Walking Wake really is will change. I think people (me included) are just shocked since I don't think a mon this powerful has dropped in a raid since the release of SV. Do I think this mon is worthy of a quickban.... eh not really do I think we need a bit more time to just let it soak and eventually go for a suspect test...absolutely.

I don't think my perception of something that I think is a S - rank (day 1) goes down to a B+ after weeks of getting used to the meta and it's effect on it. Realistically it's going from a S - to a A + / A.
 
there's definitely counter-play for this thing like slowking, azumarill, or just out-maneuvering it with any well-built team structure.

Respectfully, "just outmaneuver it with a well built team" isn't the best advice let alone an argument for it being balanced. Azumarill lacks recovery and is quickly worn down between hazards and having to switch in, so if it dips too low it can't check it. Slowking is fine, but it being a check flies out the window the moment specs Wake teras dragon to bust it down.


i said sun as an archetype loses to dragonite and volcarona. i never said dragonite and volcarona are switch-ins to walking wake. plus walking wake can't even check either properly as dragonite has multiscale + tera-normal extreme speed, while volcarona abuses unrestricted tera to its maximum to 1v1 it then sweep the rest of your sun team.

i'd appreciate if you read my post properly instead of quoting 1-line you misinterpreted to fish for a higher reaction score

Dragonite can't even crack 50% vs Wake with Tera extreme speed, unless already boosted so that's out. As for Volcarona, it has to be Tera fairy to actually 1v1 it, otherwise it gets draco'd into dust. Furthermore, I don't think you should make unfounded accusations of "misinterpreting to fish for a higher reaction score".


the aforementioned slowking completely shits on sun teams and i've seen quite a lot of hippowdon and tyranitar as sun is a TERRIBLE archetype when your 'mons are not getting the protosynthesis boost. someone is going to say "well being forced to use sand is a testament by itself" but god this metagame is in dire need for a shift. hippowdon and tyranitar are not bad 'mons at all (unlike *cough tauros) and i have been using other cool developments like water absorb clodsire and specially defensive scream tail for sun mirrors. this is only a couple hours in and i guarantee we are going to find more answers as time goes on.

No one wants to run slowking on every team... And it still invites in some dangerous threats like roaring moon (common sun mon btw) and meowscarada. As for sand setters, neither are good. Hippo is horribly passive and a mostly do nothing mon, not to mention largely outclassed as a bulky ground. And Tyranitar is too slow, too vulnerable to so many common threats and also too easily walled. It does nothing that seriously justifies the level of risk it is to run. Regarding Clodsire, I suppose it works? But it realistically wants Tera fairy so as to not be forced to recover every time it comes into Wake. And Scream Tail... Listen, I like it, but it's super flawed and specific. So a lot of answers you listed is either niche or flawed (scream Tail, Azumarill), or a fat Regen wall like Toxapex or Slowking (pex isn't even a safe bet because specs Draco 2HKOs spdef pex with rocks up).

at the end of the day i know some kid is gonna start posting some modest choice specs +SpA protosynthesis tera-water hydro steam calc and use that as his entire argument to why it's broken but idk i don't think this 'mon is all that bad in practice.

Let's not strawman yeah?
 
"if you complain about a new release ur lame lol—Flinchinator"
If you want a wake counter, try Chansey. Chansey can Tera water to counter it and calm mind to check it. You can only use Chansey in stall but y’all hate wake aight so here’s a solution
 
I played with Specs H-Zoro yesterday, its a decent mon.

Zoroark-Hisui @ Choice Specs
Ability: Illusion
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hyper Voice
- Shadow Ball
- U-turn
- Trick

It definitely makes use of Illusion well with those 3 immunites. Its stabs are weak so use Specs. Its walled by Kingambit, Garg, and itself lol so uturn on them or trick Garg. But besides that Normal and Ghost are nice stabs to have for the coverage across the bored. Illusion partners include trapper Roaring Moon, Valiant (lol fuck Dragapult), and probably any ghost weak. I used tera normal to boost its power but you can use Fairy to really piss off Dragapult.
 
Tera Fairy Water Absorb Clodsire

:sv/clodsire:
Clodsire @ Leftovers / Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Water Absorb
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Earthquake
- Toxic
- Spikes
- Recover

Clodsire, Slowking, and Blissey seem to be the only reliable counters to Walking Wake. There are some decent checks that I will list below, but my favorite counter is Clodsire.
  • Water Absorb is fairly unexpected, plus it will heal Clod.
  • The Sp. Atk. drops from Draco Meteor will not be ignored, so Clod will live 2 Specs Draco Meteors (with the exception of Sp. Atk. Protosynthesis Specs Draco Meteor).
  • If Clod is damaged a little bit and needs to stay alive on the next hit, Tera Fairy will ensure that Walking Wake never wins the 1v1.
  • Tera Fairy is still a solid tera option that allows it to check/counter other prominent Pokemon that could otherwise pressure it (e.g. Greninja with Extrasensory, Dragapult, Iron Valiant with Psyshock).
  • Most importantly, it is still a reliable special wall that provides great utility with Toxic and Spikes. Even if there is no Walking Wake on the opposing team, it will still be very useful to the team.
The meta is still developing quite a lot, so other checks/counters to Walking Wake may emerge that I did not think of. I will post sets of each check/counter to Walking Wake that came to mind in a separate post, but there you go. Clod keeps getting better.
 
how are the two even remotely comparable i genuinely do not understand
They have got similar movepools.
Gallade has sacred sword boosted by sharpness, iron leaves has close combat.(although it does not have stab on this move)
Gallade has psycho cut, iron leaves has psyblade(which needs to be boosted).
Gallade has leaf blade boosted by shapness iron leaves has stab leave blade.

Gallade's typying is awfull defensively, iron leaves typying is okay defensively.

Iron leaves has much better stats too.
 
Respectfully, "just outmaneuver it with a well built team" isn't the best advice let alone an argument for it being balanced. Azumarill lacks recovery and is quickly worn down between hazards and having to switch in, so if it dips too low it can't check it. Slowking is fine, but it being a check flies out the window the moment specs Wake teras dragon to bust it down.

i mean, it kinda is, you should try and outmaneuver. Wake gets walled p well by pex, slowking and clod, and offensive teams have tools to beat it with some decent defensive pivot like spdef garg or spdef rotom. Its no chi-yu or chien-pao where you need Daschbun or Tauros Paldea to beat it.

You really just have to outmaneuver it. A lot of the good offensive mons like valiant, dragapult, meowscarada, cinderace and scarfers can dance around it. Its stabs are also not Dark/Ice or Dark/Fire where there is genuinely no mon that can wall it, Dragon/Water is pretty exploitable and relies on power alone. Just fight a fairy + water immune (very common even before walking wake was around like clodsire + fairy garg or clodsire + valiant)

to compare with the banned water dragon,

252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Mew: 532-627 (132 - 155.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Roaring Moon Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 372-438 (92.3 - 108.6%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO (WALKING WAKE WITH SPECS, PROTO BOOST UNDER SUN, IGNORE THAT IT SAYS ROARING MOON AND HYDRO PUMP)

You have to remember its under sun, and sun is exploitable with reliance on weather and being weak to hazard and common mons like iron moth/volcarona, outside of sun its just a fine mon, not bad, not the best, and so far the best thing i find from walking wake is NOT the demon special dracovish but rather the utility out of sun with its good typing and bulk (and i am a hardcore HO player so that says something).

I don't want to sound arrogant but you really should try build/edit newer teams for the new meta and outmaneuver strong attacking mons. Look at specs lele or volacanion under rain in gen 8. they're good but not a world beater, people beat these mons by outplaying, either having a hard wall/multiple checks or just out offense them with faster mons, and in OU theres a good amount of options that fills these.

TL;DR : I don't think walking wake is broken, but its definetly really good.
 
Last edited:
:walking-wake: List of Checks/Counters to Walking Wake :walking-wake:

With the introduction of Walking Wake and Iron Leaves, the meta has already started to adapt quite a lot--and mostly to the former.

Walking Wake is somewhat similar to Iron Bundle in function: same Sp. Atk., slower but still very fast, great offensive STABs to spam Water & Dragon moves, pretty respectable bulk for such an offensive threat, and also a niche in being a Water-type sun abuser. Under the sun, Walking Wake's STAB moves are 120 BP and 130 BP, respectively, and with its great special attack stat paired with a damage-boosting item and even a boost from Protosynthesis, it becomes a fantastic breaker.

Time will tell if it is broken or not, but for now, here are a bunch of defensive and offensive checks! Let me know your thoughts or if you have any other suggestions for me to add to the list. I will also link a PokePaste to some sets I came up with at the bottom of the post.

DEFENSIVE:

Counters

:clodsire: Water Absorb Clod with Tera Fairy will win the 1v1 against Walking Wake while providing great utility. I made a post about it just above this if you want to read more.
:slowking: Slowking has the combination of Regenerator and Slack Off that makes it very hard to break, the only problem is it cannot do much back to Wake. Otherwise, it is a very solid pivot that should reliably counter Walking Wake.
:blissey: Blissey is in the same situation as Slowking, but it provides different utility. Also, it can win the 1v1 against Walking Wake much more easily than Slowking.
:toxapex: Sp. Def. Toxapex serves a similar role to Slowking as a Regenerator pivot. It can also spread Toxic, posing a threat to Wake.

Checks
:azumarill: :gastrodon: :vaporeon: These Water-types are all decent checks with 2 being immune to Water moves, but a good prediction will cause trouble. Azumarill resists all 3 moves, but it has no reliable recovery; not to mention, sun-boosted Specs Hydro Steam 2HKOs normal Azu sets. Gastrodon is a worse Clod imo since it cannot tank as well on the special side and misses out on Toxic. Vaporeon cannot damage Wake and has to rely on Wish spam & stalling out Draco Meteors. They all are viable picks though, and they offer utility outside of the Wake matchup.
:scream-tail: :sylveon: :florges: These Fairy-types are immune to Walking Wake's Draco Meteor and can pressure back with Fairy moves while possessing solid enough Sp. Def. to deal with a Water move as well as reliable recovery. Scream Tail outspeeds Wake, both Scream Tail and Sylveon can pass Wishes, both Sylveon and Florges can set up with Calm Mind, and Florges can take advantage of sun spam with the boost in healing from Synthesis.
:gholdengo: :kingambit: These Steel-types resist Draco Meteor, have good enough bulk to potentially tank Water moves, tank a Flamethrower, and will be useful outside of Wake matchups. Gholdengo has Recover, and Kingambit can Sucker Punch to deal solid damage.
:wo-chien: :toedscruel: These Grass-types are quite specially bulky and can kind of check Wake. Both Wo-Chien and Toedscruel can Leech Seed, they both tank Flamethrower easily, and both provide Knock Off support. Toed can also Rapid Spin, set up Spikes, and Spore if need be. Yes, I'm a big Toed enthusiast.
:cryogonal: On the off-chance that Wake lost its Choice Specs or is running another item, Cryogonal can actually beat Wake while not being deadweight on the team. Freeze-Dry just barely OHKOs offensive Wake with 8 EVs in Sp. Atk.; it provides Rapid Spin and Haze support; it has reliable recovery; it is a Ground immunity. Very niche but very cool.
:chansey: Chansey is Blissey but worse. It serves as a check rather than a counter because hazard stacking and/or getting Eviolite Knock'd Off removes its ability to wall reliably. Still an option I guess, so I'll toss it in here.

OFFENSIVE:
:dragapult: Dragapult can use either Draco Meteor or Dragon Darts.
:roaring-moon: Roaring Moon can use Scale Shot, Outrage, or CB Dragon Claw. It will outspeed any Wake variant in the sun with the typical CB set.
:iron-valiant: Iron Valiant can use Moonblast or CB Spirit Break.
:walking-wake: Walking Wake beats Walking Wake. Wonderful.
:dragonite: Dragonite can Tera Normal, tank a hit, Dragon Dance up, and outspeed. It can also just Extreme Speed to pick up the kill.
:garchomp: Choice Scarf or Focus Sash Garchomp can use Draco Meteor, Outrage, or Dragon Claw (Wake must be chipped).
:hydreigon: Choice Scarf Hydreigon can use Draco Meteor.
:glimmora: Choice Scarf or Focus Sash Glimmora can use Tera Fairy Dazzling Gleam (OHKOs Offensive Wake 37.5% of the time).
:maushold: Maushold just outspeeds Wake, and it can either go for Population Bomb or use Tidy Up on the switch.

 
Last edited:
:walking-wake: List of Checks/Counters to Walking Wake :walking-wake:

With the introduction of Walking Wake and Iron Leaves, the meta has already started to adapt quite a lot--and mostly to the former.

Walking Wake is somewhat similar to Iron Bundle in function: same Sp. Atk., slower but still very fast, great offensive STABs to spam Water & Dragon moves, pretty respectable bulk for such an offensive threat, and also a niche in being a Water-type sun abuser. Under the sun, Walking Wake's STAB moves are 120 BP and 130 BP, respectively, and with its great special attack stat paired with a damage-boosting item and even a boost from Protosynthesis, it becomes a fantastic breaker.

Time will tell if it is broken or not, but for now, here are a bunch of defensive and offensive checks! Let me know your thoughts or if you have any other suggestions for me to add to the list. I will also link a PokePaste to some sets I came up with at the bottom of the post.

DEFENSIVE:

Counters

:clodsire: Water Absorb Clod with Tera Fairy will win the 1v1 against Walking Wake while providing great utility. I made a post about it just above this if you want to read more.
:slowking: Slowking has the combination of Regenerator and Slack Off that makes it very hard to break, the only problem is it cannot do much back to Wake. Otherwise, it is a very solid pivot that should reliably counter Walking Wake.
:blissey: Blissey is in the same situation as Slowking, but it provides different utility. Also, it can win the 1v1 against Walking Wake much more easily than Slowking.
:toxapex: Sp. Def. Toxapex serves a similar role to Slowking as a Regenerator pivot. It can also spread Toxic, posing a threat to Wake.

Checks
:azumarill: :gastrodon: :vaporeon: These Water-types are all decent checks with 2 being immune to Water moves, but a good prediction will cause trouble. Azumarill resists all 3 moves, but it has no reliable recovery; not to mention, sun-boosted Specs Hydro Steam 2HKOs normal Azu sets. Gastrodon is a worse Clod imo since it cannot tank as well on the special side and misses out on Toxic. Vaporeon cannot damage Wake and has to rely on Wish spam & stalling out Draco Meteors. They all are viable picks though, and they offer utility outside of the Wake matchup.
:scream-tail: :sylveon: :florges: These Fairy-types are immune to Walking Wake's Draco Meteor and can pressure back with Fairy moves while possessing solid enough Sp. Def. to deal with a Water move as well as reliable recovery. Scream Tail outspeeds Wake, both Scream Tail and Sylveon can pass Wishes, both Sylveon and Florges can set up with Calm Mind, and Florges can take advantage of sun spam with the boost in healing from Synthesis.
:gholdengo: :kingambit: These Steel-types resist Draco Meteor, have good enough bulk to potentially tank Water moves, tank a Flamethrower, and will be useful outside of Wake matchups. Gholdengo has Recover, and Kingambit can Sucker Punch to deal solid damage.
:wo-chien: :toedscruel: These Grass-types are quite specially bulky and can kind of check Wake. Both Wo-Chien and Toedscruel can Leech Seed, they both tank Flamethrower easily, and both provide Knock Off support. Toed can also Rapid Spin, set up Spikes, and Spore if need be. Yes, I'm a big Toed enthusiast.
:cryogonal: On the off-chance that Wake lost its Choice Specs or is running another item, Cryogonal can actually beat Wake while not being deadweight on the team. Freeze-Dry just barely OHKOs offensive Wake with 8 EVs in Sp. Atk.; it provides Rapid Spin and Haze support; it has reliable recovery; it is a Ground immunity. Very niche but very cool.

OFFENSIVE:
:dragapult: Dragapult can use either Draco Meteor or Dragon Darts.
:roaring-moon: Roaring Moon can use Scale Shot, Outrage, or CB Dragon Claw. It will outspeed any Wake variant in the sun with the typical CB set.
:iron-valiant: Iron Valiant can use Moonblast or CB Spirit Break.
:walking-wake: Walking Wake beats Walking Wake. Wonderful.
:dragonite: Dragonite can Tera Normal, tank a hit, Dragon Dance up, and outspeed. It can also just Extreme Speed to pick up the kill.
:garchomp: Choice Scarf or Focus Sash Garchomp can use Draco Meteor, Outrage, or Dragon Claw (Wake must be chipped).
:hydreigon: Choice Scarf Hydreigon can use Draco Meteor.
:glimmora: Choice Scarf or Focus Sash Glimmora can use Tera Fairy Dazzling Gleam (OHKOs Offensive Wake 37.5% of the time).
:maushold: Just outspeeds Wake, can either go for Population Bomb or use Tidy Up on the switch.

You should mention Chansey though.
 
You should mention Chansey though.
It fails to reliably check if it is Knocked Off, and it falls apart to hstack. Also, it is redundant with Blissey, who can pretty much outperform it in every aspect. At least with Gastrodon, it has a slightly different niche than Water Absorb Clodsire, but Chansey is just worse Blissey in this meta. I'll mention it in the bottom of the Defensive Checks list though
 
also i don't get why you're so harsh on hippowdon and tyranitar. they are not that bad and if you refuse to consider them in the team-building process then idk what to say. i play with fat balance myself and i am very open to this metagame adapting and the shift walking wake has caused. hippowdon and tyranitar are not even close to as bad as something like tauros lol

:hippowdon:hippowdon can use stealth rock, phase with whirlwind which annoys offense like crazy (especially shed tail scrubs), and sand is amazing for residuals, breaking sashes, multiscale etc. hippowdon can even pp stall a lot garganacl's salt cures which is amazing in longer games
:tyranitar:tyranitar is also a fine 'mon. outside of setting up rocks and sand, it can also pressure great tusk on the switch with ice beam and spread paralysis. the typing is also decent since it can check non-band dragapult, certain volcarona sets, skeledirge, and iron moth.

I've been a huge fan of Hippowdon for a bit now. Even if it isn't quite Garganacl (but, god, what is?), it's got a similarly efficient spread, and it does a great job of messing up people's pots and pans even before getting into how useful Sand Force is at cancelling out other weathers.

Given how much Fighting is going around right now, if Walking Wake stays in the tier? This might be the age of the Hippo.
 
:walking-wake: List of Checks/Counters to Walking Wake :walking-wake:

With the introduction of Walking Wake and Iron Leaves, the meta has already started to adapt quite a lot--and mostly to the former.

Walking Wake is somewhat similar to Iron Bundle in function: same Sp. Atk., slower but still very fast, great offensive STABs to spam Water & Dragon moves, pretty respectable bulk for such an offensive threat, and also a niche in being a Water-type sun abuser. Under the sun, Walking Wake's STAB moves are 120 BP and 130 BP, respectively, and with its great special attack stat paired with a damage-boosting item and even a boost from Protosynthesis, it becomes a fantastic breaker.

Time will tell if it is broken or not, but for now, here are a bunch of defensive and offensive checks! Let me know your thoughts or if you have any other suggestions for me to add to the list. I will also link a PokePaste to some sets I came up with at the bottom of the post.

DEFENSIVE:

Counters

:clodsire: Water Absorb Clod with Tera Fairy will win the 1v1 against Walking Wake while providing great utility. I made a post about it just above this if you want to read more.
:slowking: Slowking has the combination of Regenerator and Slack Off that makes it very hard to break, the only problem is it cannot do much back to Wake. Otherwise, it is a very solid pivot that should reliably counter Walking Wake.
:blissey: Blissey is in the same situation as Slowking, but it provides different utility. Also, it can win the 1v1 against Walking Wake much more easily than Slowking.
:toxapex: Sp. Def. Toxapex serves a similar role to Slowking as a Regenerator pivot. It can also spread Toxic, posing a threat to Wake.

Checks
:azumarill: :gastrodon: :vaporeon: These Water-types are all decent checks with 2 being immune to Water moves, but a good prediction will cause trouble. Azumarill resists all 3 moves, but it has no reliable recovery; not to mention, sun-boosted Specs Hydro Steam 2HKOs normal Azu sets. Gastrodon is a worse Clod imo since it cannot tank as well on the special side and misses out on Toxic. Vaporeon cannot damage Wake and has to rely on Wish spam & stalling out Draco Meteors. They all are viable picks though, and they offer utility outside of the Wake matchup.
:scream-tail: :sylveon: :florges: These Fairy-types are immune to Walking Wake's Draco Meteor and can pressure back with Fairy moves while possessing solid enough Sp. Def. to deal with a Water move as well as reliable recovery. Scream Tail outspeeds Wake, both Scream Tail and Sylveon can pass Wishes, both Sylveon and Florges can set up with Calm Mind, and Florges can take advantage of sun spam with the boost in healing from Synthesis.
:gholdengo: :kingambit: These Steel-types resist Draco Meteor, have good enough bulk to potentially tank Water moves, tank a Flamethrower, and will be useful outside of Wake matchups. Gholdengo has Recover, and Kingambit can Sucker Punch to deal solid damage.
:wo-chien: :toedscruel: These Grass-types are quite specially bulky and can kind of check Wake. Both Wo-Chien and Toedscruel can Leech Seed, they both tank Flamethrower easily, and both provide Knock Off support. Toed can also Rapid Spin, set up Spikes, and Spore if need be. Yes, I'm a big Toed enthusiast.
:cryogonal: On the off-chance that Wake lost its Choice Specs or is running another item, Cryogonal can actually beat Wake while not being deadweight on the team. Freeze-Dry just barely OHKOs offensive Wake with 8 EVs in Sp. Atk.; it provides Rapid Spin and Haze support; it has reliable recovery; it is a Ground immunity. Very niche but very cool.
:chansey: Chansey is Blissey but worse. It serves as a check rather than a counter because hazard stacking and/or getting Eviolite Knock'd Off removes its ability to wall reliably. Still an option I guess, so I'll toss it in here.

OFFENSIVE:
:dragapult: Dragapult can use either Draco Meteor or Dragon Darts.
:roaring-moon: Roaring Moon can use Scale Shot, Outrage, or CB Dragon Claw. It will outspeed any Wake variant in the sun with the typical CB set.
:iron-valiant: Iron Valiant can use Moonblast or CB Spirit Break.
:walking-wake: Walking Wake beats Walking Wake. Wonderful.
:dragonite: Dragonite can Tera Normal, tank a hit, Dragon Dance up, and outspeed. It can also just Extreme Speed to pick up the kill.
:garchomp: Choice Scarf or Focus Sash Garchomp can use Draco Meteor, Outrage, or Dragon Claw (Wake must be chipped).
:hydreigon: Choice Scarf Hydreigon can use Draco Meteor.
:glimmora: Choice Scarf or Focus Sash Glimmora can use Tera Fairy Dazzling Gleam (OHKOs Offensive Wake 37.5% of the time).
:maushold: Maushold just outspeeds Wake, and it can either go for Population Bomb or use Tidy Up on the switch.


Iron moth checks it because its 2 points faster than proto boost timid and energy balls does a fucking million, even if hp investment
 
not sure if scream tail should really use that speed investment, it's obviously more useful with encore that way but it makes it really shaky as a check, whereas with bulk investment it becomes one heck of a fat special wall and becomes even better under sun which works wonders to check wake's most popular use

speed proto wake:
244 SpA Choice Specs Suicune Hydro Steam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Protosynthesis Scream Tail in Sun: 142-168 (32.7 - 38.7%) -- 99.1% chance to 3HKO

SpA proto wake:
252 SpA Choice Specs Protosynthesis Suicune Hydro Steam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Protosynthesis Scream Tail in Sun: 186-220 (42.8 - 50.6%) -- 46.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (a lot more shaky, but can work against timid at least)

its very passive especially when ran with full bulk investment instead of speed, but on top of its usual moveset it has access to twave, cm, rocks, even bulk up to patch up its passivity and bad defense stat, surely there's a way to make it not entirely dead weight even in other matchups (it's a fat special wall no matter what)

it doesn't do as good against rain wake though, unless running utility umbrella
 
I think the thing that makes Wake tricky to maneuver around compared to most Sun Mons is that besides Water-in-Sun being a very rare and tricky-to-account-for Niche, Wake is arguably about as powerful when under Rain as well, which makes one of the most common answers to a Weather team in removing said Weather a less than favorable option.

Taking a page from Slowking suggestions, has anyone experimented with manual Weather to overwrite Protosynthesis? Aside from Specs Proto Draco (which still has some room to respond to the 2nd one), SpD Gastrodon obviously doesn't care about anything else Wake can throw out, and while Draco calls for it to use Recover, on other moves it can use Snowscape to disrupt the team's overall Sun, which can make momentum tricky to reclaim when Torkoal doesn't like switching into even weak Chilling Water due to its lack of recovery. Along that same line, I expect a lot more value in Knock Off because Wake and Torkoal are HEAVILY reliant on their items to maintain this level of power throughout a game rather than one-or-two KOs into a revenge.

Given the heavily offensive nature of Sun teams even before Walking Wake, that disruption could make its re-entry tricky, or leave it without the room to finish breaking Walls, or give the opening to pick off teammates that endanger trouble opponents/Revenge Killers to Wake such as Iron Valiant or Dragapult (even Utility set's Dragon STAB will KO after SR, much less the offensive ones).
 
i said sun as an archetype loses to dragonite and volcarona. i never said dragonite and volcarona are switch-ins to walking wake. plus walking wake can't even check either properly as dragonite has multiscale + tera-normal extreme speed, while volcarona abuses unrestricted tera to its maximum to 1v1 it then sweep the rest of your sun team.
said archetype now has walking wake, though. you know, the mon your entire post was about? so if i’m understanding right, you’re saying walking wake is balanced because certain mons that already beat sun without tera now have to tera to handle it? kinda sounds like you’re saying the opposite if you just read the reasoning.
 
They have got similar movepools.
Gallade has sacred sword boosted by sharpness, iron leaves has close combat.(although it does not have stab on this move)
Gallade has psycho cut, iron leaves has psyblade(which needs to be boosted).
Gallade has leaf blade boosted by shapness iron leaves has stab leave blade.

Gallade's typying is awfull defensively, iron leaves typying is okay defensively.

Iron leaves has much better stats too.

ok...gallade has a vastly superior defensive typing than iron leaves, but whatever, go off. i also don't see how either of them have competition in their roles aside from being a "physical psychic type" since gallade has the boon of being a better fatbreaker than iron leaves whereas iron leaves is better at being a revenge killer thanks to booster energy. they're really not that similar if you think about it

i just don't see why iron leaves in particular is the bane of gallade's existence when some pokemon already in the game give gallade much more competition, to say nothing of the two sharpness wallbreakers in kleavor and hisuian samurott arriving soon via HOME that could give gallade some actual competition
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top