Guys, the major point that doesn't seem to be hitting home here is that not only is Mence a wicked sweeper with no counters (please name one metagame-viable one for the Mixed set), it also takes a hit. Infernape, Lucario, Gengar, and any other poke that would make it onto the "no 100% counters" list have very little defensive utility. Salamence has the correct stats, ability, and typing to come into a diverse set of threats and force them out. Dragonite's lack of speed hurts it not just on the sweeping end but also on the countering end, and ultimately makes Mence the better choice, especially since a lot of offense teams can be Lucario weak. Also, every other sweeper mentioned on my short list can beat their checks because of different sets, not with the same one. Show me a counter to the Mixed set alone!
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The First Smogon Council - Salamence
- Thread starter Aeolus
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Last post syndrome... i gotta know
@ Stylish Interval
I took the liberty of calculating the damage for max sp. atk +nature earth power vs the standard special tank lanturn.
394 Atk vs 276 Def & 394 HP (90 Base Power): 184 - 218 (46.70% - 55.33%)
On the flip side with the With standard special Tank lanturn surf vs standard scarftran.
228 Atk vs 223 Def & 323 HP (90 Base Power): 200 - 236 (61.92% - 73.07%)
If I made any mistake plz don't hesitate to say them.
Edit: It still requires heavy hp investment for this lanturn to not get 2hkoed by earth power. I still think you need the sub set for it to make a niche in this new enviorment.
I took the liberty of calculating the damage for max sp. atk +nature earth power vs the standard special tank lanturn.
394 Atk vs 276 Def & 394 HP (90 Base Power): 184 - 218 (46.70% - 55.33%)
On the flip side with the With standard special Tank lanturn surf vs standard scarftran.
228 Atk vs 223 Def & 323 HP (90 Base Power): 200 - 236 (61.92% - 73.07%)
If I made any mistake plz don't hesitate to say them.
Edit: It still requires heavy hp investment for this lanturn to not get 2hkoed by earth power. I still think you need the sub set for it to make a niche in this new enviorment.
for everyone saying mence has to predict perfectly - it's not that hard. He gets perfect coverage with 2 moves on everything but heatran, and his stab is only resisted by one, so he can spam draco meteor. And if he isn't sure whats gonna switch, he roosts, then next time he can predict.
Or, you can go the prediction free route. I've been using specs mence. Watch it hit scizor for about 60%. Switch to zapdos.
And stealth rock isn't a problem because spinning is rediculously easy since many people just run offensive rotom who eats a life orb hydro pump on it's sub-par defenses. Rotom does not like neutral hits.
Or, you can go the prediction free route. I've been using specs mence. Watch it hit scizor for about 60%. Switch to zapdos.
And stealth rock isn't a problem because spinning is rediculously easy since many people just run offensive rotom who eats a life orb hydro pump on it's sub-par defenses. Rotom does not like neutral hits.
Not really. There are more ways to counter Skarmbliss but it serves a different role in DPP. As a core of a stall team it's not terrible, but when placed on the right team the result is devastating. A team with Dual Screen Rotom-H can both prevent spikes/SR from disappearing and can protect Skarmbliss from OHKOs. A team with Toxic Spikes plus a second wisher is tough to dismantle, but that is what some of these teams have. The beauty of Mence (and Latias to some extent) is that it made it so that people didn't have to sit back in a shell and wall everything all day. There are ways to dismantle stall but it's boring playing it battle after battle.
Plus relying on Infernape only would lead it to die quickly due to residual damage. Stall teams are smart enough to play around one wall breaker like that.
It's not hard to predict. It's impossible to predict. You have a 50/50 chance. You can't say it's hard to predict when you're right 50% of the time, nor can you say it's easy to predict when you're wrong 50% of the time. However the consequence does not lie with how hard it is to predict (which, by the way, is only some bullshit pseudo-argument that you've put into others mouths, and that no one has actually used), but rather lies with what happens when you predict wrong.
I'm gonna stop you to just say, that you're flat wrong. Both sets are among the top ten most powerful sets in OU right now, if not top 5. And it is the fact that such power is wielded by the SAME pokemon at such an EVEN percentage that makes him truly devastating. Minor arguments can be made for his individual sets, but that doesn't encompass the full threat level of his power. Predicting is piss easy. Only catch is, you just have to be right. And the thing about Mence is that he absolutely punishes you for being wrong.
Frankly I don't even know where this whole "only OP when used with X pokemon" argument even came from. But, yes there are pokemon that make Mence that much more overpowered. Saying otherwise is being facetious, and saying that there are other good combinations is not a counterargument, and is rather irrelevant. I could just as easily say that all men are weak and skinny since I knew a few that are weak and skinny in real life. That doesn't mean it's true.
Fantastic history lesson on Garchomp and all. But what terrible logic when it comes to your point about how Garchomp is currently Uber and how Mence isn't. Considering how you just spent most of the paragraph saying how Chomp is a larger threat than Salamence therefore making him a larger priority to ban. Simply saying that one Uber is more powerful than another pokemon means absolutely nothing.
As I said before. The sets aren't simply just viable, but are extremely powerful. We only talk about the handful of things that can survive very specific scenarios with these sets. We don't even have to talk about when those pokemon lose, nor should we need to mention how Mence wrecks nearly everything that aren't those 4-5 pokemon.
This doesn't even contribute to the current argument for the following reasons:
1. Prediction is risky on any Pokemon. There's a chance that you will win out, but there's also a chance that your opponent will win out. The prediction argument is invalid on either side of the argument for a suspect.
2. We aren't even discussing SpecsMence, we're discussing MixMence and DD Mence, two of the more deadly and dangerous Mence sets. Who cares if SpecsMence did 60% to Scizor when we're discussing what these other sets can do.
3. Stealth Rock is on almost every single team. Starmie is not. You most likely are just basing your argument around one team that you had that was able to deal with these problems. Unless everyone decides to make carbon copy teams that match yours to the "T" (which I doubt will happen, not even the top players had everyone use their team), don't bring other Pokemon into the conversation unless they are most common teammates, reliable checks to certain sets, etc.
Anyways, I've been laddering around in Suspect for a little bit, and it really is different from how OU was with Mence. Stall and Semi-stall are pretty common, but I am also seeing Hyper Offensive teams every now and then, mainly running on the physical side (makes sense, special hyper offense needs toxic spikes or a mixed sweeper like ape to beat Blissey).
Thats not actually true helix. For example if you are facing an infernape with metagross and you can switch to either starmie or scarftran.
Lets say the nape has cc, gk, ft, hp ice.
Heatran can come in on gk, ft or hp.
Starmie can come in on cc, ft or hp.
Metagross can survive and ko if it ccs, gks or hps.
So the infernape will not hp (if its aware of the situation), but it means you have a 67% chance of predicting correctly. If you had a dragonite as well, then you have a 75% chance of predicting correctly.
Of course this is a gross oversimplification, but it does show, more or less, the advantage of having stab dragon moves. Generally it will either be 2hkoed, or it will be a steel type.
To give yourself a better than 50% chance then you kinda have to have Heatran or Empoleon, and Bronzong or Skarmory.
Have a nice day.
Lets say the nape has cc, gk, ft, hp ice.
Heatran can come in on gk, ft or hp.
Starmie can come in on cc, ft or hp.
Metagross can survive and ko if it ccs, gks or hps.
So the infernape will not hp (if its aware of the situation), but it means you have a 67% chance of predicting correctly. If you had a dragonite as well, then you have a 75% chance of predicting correctly.
Of course this is a gross oversimplification, but it does show, more or less, the advantage of having stab dragon moves. Generally it will either be 2hkoed, or it will be a steel type.
To give yourself a better than 50% chance then you kinda have to have Heatran or Empoleon, and Bronzong or Skarmory.
Have a nice day.
But if Heatran or Starmie comes in on a NVE move (the Flamethrower) that Infernape attacked with, then the Infernape predicted wrong. It picked the wrong move for the incoming Pokemon, while against Metagross, that Flamethrower would have been the right choice. No matter how many move choices or your opponents Pokemon, you will either get it right, or get it wrong and possibly die. It's only right or wrong, isn't it?
We don't consider things like Infernape spamming Overheat broken even though they have the same base power and pretty much the same base SATK because Overheat has an assload more resistances and an immunity here and there. Dragon has exactly one type that resists it, and Mence gets exactly the right moves to cover every Pokemon of that type. Something like Crocune really has no issues switching into any Infernape, whereas the only things that can say that for Mence are things that have no business being in a serious OU match (Cresselia, for example). This is why Salamence is much more dangerous compared to anything else. Now, the thing that makes me really curious...Salamence has the same base SATK as Latias, a much better ability, a viable physical movepool/attack, and a much better special movepool. Latias was banned for having a very powerful Draco Meteor (a gross oversimplification but that's what it comes down to). I'd be curious to see if 10 base SPE and an SR weakness not only make up for all the advantages Mence has over Latias, but also make it so Mence is OU where Latias is Uber.
Cresselia counters the mixed set.
And anyway, your listing characteristics of Salamence, not why it is broken. Saying he can be offensive and defensive has nothing to do with it being uber, right Wob???
Also, you can use logic to determine which kind of Salamence is coming in. If your 70% Rotom is in and a Salamence comes in, no idiot is going to Dragon Dance on a fucking Rotom unless it has DD Lum (which isn't very threatening). Therefore, you can conclude that it is in fact Mixmence. Get the point?
Also, Dragon Dance Salamence is countered by Swampert with Ice Beam... it always loses to it what the fuck???
+0 Dragon Dance Salamence Outrage vs. 252HP/252Def Leadpert: 49.3% - 58.2%
Leadpert will die to Outrage, what is that, like 98% of the time, when it switches in? Rocks and Leftovers cancel out of course. How does Swampert counter again?
Yes, it forces it out, but lots of pokemon do that. And the counter/check thing is one part of the equation that we all know by now.
Leadpert will die to Outrage, what is that, like 98% of the time, when it switches in? Rocks and Leftovers cancel out of course. How does Swampert counter again?
Yes, it forces it out, but lots of pokemon do that. And the counter/check thing is one part of the equation that we all know by now.
Name the last time you Outraged blindly with DDMence at +0...?
Whether you're right or wrong only matters AFTER the play has been made. How likely you are to be right or wrong is what matters before the play is made, and in Hip's example, you have more "correct" options "incorrect" options, meaning you have a higher chance of making the right prediction.
Against Salamence, the prediction is never better than a coin flip, and then only if you are already aware of Salamence's set. If you are unaware of Salamence's set, then the odds are even worse, as little as a 1/4 chance of making the correct prediction.
I know this wasnt directed at me but i dont think it matters. We only care about what mence is capable of doing, not how individual players play him.
Yeah, the thing is any good mence user knows you think this and could very well bring a dd mence into a rotom. Basically its 50-50 as to witch set you are facing. Assuming a mix mence can be very deadly and can easily cost you the match. For example, mence dd's as you go to blissey, then dd's again as you switch out. Pretty much gg unless you have one of the shitty ice shard users on your team. I know someones going to say this applies to other sweepers but it doesnt. No other sweeper (bar dragonite) has 2 sets around equal useage that dont have to specalize to beat ALL of its viable counters.
True. Sometimes people forget about Salamence's devastating 450 attack! For example Metagross which hits hard without any boosts! Salamence can also do the same amount of damage or even more ! It is true that the typing also helps Metagross survive longer but over all that Salamence can be dangerous even without a boost!
Looks more like you getting riled up becase there's actually a direct, straightforward, and decent argument from the pro-Ubers side to challenge the anti-Ubers' perspective.
Ok, but that's not what I said, I was responding to weak arguments like "sacrifice something weak to get your check in". It's almost not worth responding to, but really, what if you don't have anything to sacrifice? Your check is probably going to die because there really isn't anything that takes out both DD and Mix besides Cress.
Then again, it probably isn't because my lead beats yours. See how easy this is?
I like how you just dump on everyone who says "What if your opponent messes up?" then you go to say "What if he doesn't?". Really, it's not even about whether or not either opponent can predict correctly, it's about the fact that Salamence makes this prediction game worse than any other OU because:
- He has a higher chance of switching in safely and forcing out the opposing Pokemon because of his resistances, speed, power, and Intimidate.
- Draco Meteor is strong enough to OHKO sweepers that try to switch in, 2HKO slower walls without Sp. Def investment, and allow him to kill most Steels with a follow-up Fire Blast or EQ.
- Outrage finishes off anything that can withstand a Draco Meteor.
Once you get past all of that, you have to account for the fact that:
- It's probably a DDMence and your MixMence check is fucked.
It's not even a prediction war, it's Russian Roulette. DDmence and Mixmence are both used equally, virtually nothing beats them both, and you still can't reliably and consistently counter it once you know its set because of Salamence's power and perfect coverage. Try to bring in your Swampert for Round 2 and it's probably going to take an Outrage. Bring in Brozong to absorb a Draco Meteor or DD and you'll probably get a Fire Blast.
Tell me, what other OU can do this? And moreover, what makes you think any of this is healthy for the standard metagame? There's no diversity or strategy to be found in any of this; safe switch-ins for Salamence are incredibly limited and we already have endeavors to counter it stacked mile-high on every team. It's not like we haven't been trying for the past couple of years or so to beat this fucker, there just really isn't enough to work with to call it balanced. If you can't give me a healthy list of counters that can reliably and consistently beat Salamence to where it's almost as balanced as any other OU sweeper, you're really just wasting my time.
I never have, I exclusively use Specs and Band Mence. I am terrible at prediction and prefer to hit something HARD with Outrage/Draco Meteor regardless of whether it resists or not. I have to switch, so what? I get to do it 3 times. With Band, I have Dragon Claw as a safe alternative if I am scared, but I put the balls to the wall most of the time.
If you switch in your counter "alternative" set like scarf Cresselia or whatever, you win. That happens 0% of the time.
Yes you did, you COMPELETELY DISREGARDED EVERY DECISION FOR MENCE BECOMING UBER. You/some said that you can't make x pokemon uber just because x pokemon can do what others cannot, we have listed many reasons that Salamence should be uber, and now you are saying that you can't just ban him because he has no VIABLE COUNTERS, and can switch in rather easily with decent defesnses + resists + intimidate. Don't fucking VM me saying im an idiot you dickwad, tell me how his extremely powerful resisted by one type STABs are not overly powerful? Next time at least try to fucking reply to the issues being discussed, instead of giving me shit when your logic is completely flawed. Several people have shown there views of why Salamence should be uber, and several others have attempted/have rebutted these, yet you just come up with fucking 3rd person comments, not even attempting to argue against the arguments we presented. Don't give me shit about your crappy discussion skills, god you must be a fucking pain, I feel sorry for anyone that knows you.
i didnt know salamence DDs and OUTRAGES in the same turn, so bringing in swampert on a DD and than ice beaming mence isnt a counter? and like RL said, no competent player is going to blind outrage with DD MENCE without a damn DD unless its absolutely needed to win a game
wait wtf?? You're going to ban something because it could do X against a stupid player? That's just stupid-- outraging blindly is a loser strategy, and that's why people don't do it . . . hence who cares?
It's ALL about how the sets are played.
Honestly though, I think posters on both sides are realizing this discussion is getting less and less relevant.
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