The Uber Metagame: a Fun "Change of Pace"

[XtrEEmMaShEEn3k2]

well, it looks like Forretress has earned himself a strong place in the metagame now with several users of the Smogon Tour using him today. God, Forretress has become really annoying and is almost impossible to take out very easily.

Now with Forretress on a lot of teams, as well as Giratina to block Spins and Blissey to take Special Hits and Lugia to prevent SD Ray sweeps, I fear the Uber Metagame is headed back to a more defensive/Stall based one. That makes offensive teams like my recent ones rather inadequate. But I guess it's a plus since the metagame has developed into one where SD Rayquaza doesn't sweep so many teams like it used to.

I've been trying to make a team involving Forretress myself, anyone know what most Forretress EV Spreads look like? I know 252 HP is a given, but I am unsure of the nature and how exactly to split the remaining EVs among Def and SpDef.

 

[cim]

For jolteon I would just use 216 Speed EVs to always get the jump on Modest Scarf Darkrai. It's not like the HP EVs will make it live through any hits.

I'd run Baton Pass in Slot 4 as a scouting move too but that's just me. I just would love to Baton Pass on the Latias switch-in to Tyranitar or whatever physical Dark attacker is common in Ubers and just go "lol sup"

 

[Darkmalice]

Been trying this set out in ubers. I know this isn't necessarily a "Post your great uber sets!" thread, but it is a 'mon not often seen in ubers (65 uses last month).


Jolteon @ Choice Scarf
Modest Nature
Volt Absorb Ability
EVs: Hp 90, SpAtk 252, Spd 168
~ Thunder
~ Hidden Power [Ice]
~ Shadow Ball / Sleep Talk
~ Toxic / Sleep Talk

Hits 507 Spd after CS, enough to outspeed max Deoxys-S and most CS Darkrai, unless they go max speed, which isn't often as most go 506 to outspeed Deoxys-S leads. Makes a great counter to Scarf/Specs Thunders that plague the uber tier. Thunder is the only move you should really use, as it's usual 100% accuracy and 120 BP make it very powerful. Hidden Power [Ice] is to catch DD Rayquaza who think that they outspeed you. Shadow Ball only hits Lati@s more than anything else, everything else is hit for more by Thunder/HP (besides Giratina, who will shrug it off anyway). Toxic is filler, but it can be used for walls etc, or Sleep Talk can be used over either of the last 2 to take Dark Void etc.

Damage calculations


Thunder Vs...

Scarf Darkrai 71.43 - 84.01 %
Never an OHKO even with SR, but more than enough damage to seriously hurt him. Bring a priority user and finish him off when he tries to Dark Void again. The Dark Void that you inevitably take can be lessened by using Sleep Talk.

Nasty Plot Darkrai 74.47 - 87.59 %
Only posted this to show the 2.56% OHKO with SR. Switch in on a Nasty Plot and outspeed.

Deoxys-A...
Do I even need to post this? Outspeeds all, even the CS set and OHKO's with Thunder (God even HP [Ice] OHKOs)

220/0 Deoxys Spikes Lead 70.95 - 83.45 %
An easy 2HKO, outspeeding and only allowing SR or 1 layer of Spikes down. If you're really lucky it'll Taunt first turn :)

0/6 Ho-oh 74.79 - 88.39 %
OHKO with SR (isn't anything when you lose 50% on a switch?). Even without SR, 75% on 106/154 defenses is pretty good.

248/252 Ho-oh 49.16 - 57.83 %
Still a 79.49% OHKO chance with SR. This is before a CM.
*If no SR are present and Ho-oh CMs on the Thunder then the second hit is 32.29 - 39.04 %, meaning that it becomes a 3HKO.*

6/0 Kyogre 84.21 - 98.83 %
74.36% OHKO with SR up. Jolteon outspeeds all Scarf or other Kyogre. Jolteon can actually win even if Thunder doesn't OHKO, as long as Kyogre uses Water Spout that turn. The highest % Hp Kyogre can have left is 3.29%. A water Spout from that much does less than 10%, so you can happily KO Kyogre with the 2nd attack.

252/0 Lugia 63.46 - 75.00 %
A 2.56% OHKO chance with SR. Small I know, but if you catch it on the switch it's gg and even if you stay in, all it can do is Whirlwind you out, set up Reflect, Roost (while you finish it next turn even with +50% Hp) or it can Ice Beam. An Ice Beam from the Great Wall set does 22.53 - 26.62 % back, so you're safe.

80/0 Manaphy 106.37 - 125.21 %
A definite OHKO. If you switch in on a Tail Glow then you're fine.

252/36 Mew 46.04 - 54.21 %
100% 2HKO with SR. Mew will hopefully try setting up it's Baton Pass, not Hypnosis you, or you can rely on it's 60% accuracy if it does Hypnosis.

6/0 Mewtwo 59.32 - 69.77 %
A guaranteed 2HKO even without SR. Jolteon outspeeds all but the Scarfed Mewtwo, so you may be able to get a surprise kill.

0/0 Palkia 50.78 - 60.12 %
Again a SR-less 2HKO. Scarf Palkia is still outspeeded too.

176/176 Scizor 58.15 - 68.62 %
A guaranteed 2HKO all the time. Scizor manages 75.77 - 89.42 % back with U-Turn, meaning you can at least get him to half on his way out, or 34.42 - 38.23 % with Bullet Punch, so you can easily 2HKO if it's Banded into BP.


Hidden Power [Ice] Vs...

6/0 Garchomp 94.97 - 112.85 %
OHKO with SR, 66.67% chance without it. We knew this anyway really, but I figured I should post it. Outspeeds even Scarf sets too remember.

252/0 (CB) Groudon 40.59 - 48.02 %
A 3.55% 2HKO with SR.

112/0 (RP) Groudon 44.44 - 52.57 %
80.08% 2HKO with SR. Even after the RP, Jolteon still outspeeds, so when they try to EQ you after the boost, finish them off.
*You can also switch into the Paradancer to take the TW, but as an OHKO is impossible, you'll have to switch out.*

32/8 Rayquaza 90.25 - 106.96 %
An OHKO with SR, or after one turn of LO. After a DD, even Jolly Rayquaza is still outsped, so unless it uses Extremespeed on you, you win.


Shadow Ball Vs...

6/0 Latios 35.10 - 41.72 %
A 3HKO with or without SR. This is obviously too little, made worse if it's a CM set. Latias is even worse so I won't even post it. As this is not so useful, Sleep Talk is probably the better choice here.


Counters
Dialga has an easy time taking any of these attacks and he is immune to Toxic, so he's the number one problem. Thunder hits hardest, but still only manages 25.88 - 30.46 % (4HKO lol) on the mixed attacker set.
Giratina takes between 28.97 - 34.13 % from Shadow Ball, a 4HKO at best. Toxic would do a job on him, but the number that carry ResTalk negates this.
Lati@s have their way with this set too.


I'm going to continue testing this. I could do with another filler over Shadow Ball it seems, as even on Lati@s it's useless.

C&C would be useful cheers. :)

A decent set. Just a few things.

First off, have 36 HP / 252 SpA / 220 Spe with Timid. This Jolteon will outspeed Timid Scarf Darkrai and Scarf Mewtwo Leads that almost always have 216 Speed. There is no reason to run less Speed and Modest. Otherwise, you waste Jolteon's brilliant speed, and HP EVs are near useless on such a frail pokemon.

Secondly, it's dependent on Kyogre support for that 100% Thunder Accuracy. Should you wish to use Jolteon as a lead to outspeed Deoxys-S and Scarf Darkai, the accuracy may let you down.

Thirdly, Jolteon as a STalk user is inferior to other STalk users. Heracross can OHKO Darkrai with Megahorn and Close Combat, and he shrugs off Dark Pulse. Jolteon is 2HKOed by Dark Pulse and can never OHKO. Other bulky STalk users have more overall use for the move than Jolteon and take less from Dark Pulse. Even 252 HP / 0 SDef Giratina only has a 40.24% chance of being 2HKOed by Dark Pulse (ignoring Leftovers, Bad Dreams and Stealth Rock).

Finally, it's generally inferior to Scarf Mewtwo. Mewtwo packs the same speed, and has much higher of every other Stat. It's definitely the superior lead, being able to OHKO Darkrai with Focus Blast (with the same accuracy as Thunder) and 2HKO Deoxys-E with 100% accuracy thanks to Shadow Ball. Mewtwo may not hit as hard with Thunder, but it doesn't need such a move nor does it have use for it. He just uses Selfdestruct on Kyogre and Ho-oh - guaranteed OHKO on 4 HP / 0 Def variations. As well, Jolteon is completely walled by Latias and Blissey, whilst Mewtwo has Trick and Selfdestruct for them. Finally, should Mewtwo have Ice Beam in place of Trick, it is much more efficient than Jolteon's HP Ice. Mewtwo makes a better Rayquaza revenge killer, for it can survive +1 LO Extremespeed, whilst Jolteon cannot, and Mewtwo can utilise Ice Beam to 2HKO even supporting Groudon; Jolteon cannot and fears a super effective Earthquake. Not to forget that Mewtwo has a much larger scope of unpredictability than Jolteon thanks to a far superior movepool.

As for Jolteon's Thunder immunity, it's only really useful when switching into Kyogre and Choiced Palkia. Mispredicting an incoming Thunder, however, will result in slaughter of a poor electric puppy. Blissey, Latias and even Groudon and Garchomp are generally safe Thunder absorbers.

You can argue that Thunder is used all the time in Ubers, but Jolteon will only have the element of surprise the first time. After that, you risk an electric puppy on prediction.

 

[chenman333]

Basically, the problem with Choice Scarf Jolteon is this: What exactly does he do? He isn't a very good revenger because of his inability to 1hko a lot of threats. He certainly dents some of them well, but he'll likely be getting his ass whooped right after denting them. But I guess the primary issue is that he too easily gives away free turns. He switches in on an electric attack (something many other pokemon can do as well), then what? What move do you choose next? The problem with Jolteon is that no opponent in their right mind will send in pokemon that is weak to an electric attack, and send pokemon like Giratina, Lati@s, Dialga, or Groudon. Of those, only Groudon is actually remotely threatened by a 2hko by the risky HP Ice, because HP Ice is an extremely weak attack to everything else.

 

[kuja20]

Basically, the problem with Choice Scarf Jolteon is this: What exactly does he do? He isn't a very good revenger because of his inability to 1hko a lot of threats. He certainly dents some of them well, but he'll likely be getting his ass whooped right after denting them. But I guess the primary issue is that he too easily gives away free turns. He switches in on an electric attack (something many other pokemon can do as well), then what? What move do you choose next? The problem with Jolteon is that no opponent in their right mind will send in pokemon that is weak to an electric attack, and send pokemon like Giratina, Lati@s, Dialga, or Groudon. Of those, only Groudon is actually remotely threatened by a 2hko by the risky HP Ice, because HP Ice is an extremely weak attack to everything else.

Jolteon in the situations given, seems to be better at cleaning up rather then taking on the threats with full HP. If you get stealth rocks up that makes it easier for Jolteon to put that dent into the opponent's team, judging by some of the calcs I saw, stealth rocks is near enough a neccessity for Jolteon coming in and revenging.

But yeah, you would bring in Giratina, Lati@s, Dialga, Groudon in on this thing, as chenman said. Why risk predicting when you can switch into one of those 5?

 

[pi face]

Tentacruel and Forretres are awesome leads as I've been testing on one of my accounts, especially with Lum Berry - Toxic Spikes against the likes of Scarf Darkrai or Lum Dialga turn #1 stops any SpecsOgre / Darkrai / CM Mewtwo / RP Groudon sweep right of the bat. Rapid Spin stops any attempt of Deoxys-e seting-up Spikes also.

 

[pokeboss9]

"Been trying this set out in ubers. I know this isn't necessarily a "Post your great uber sets!" thread, but it is a 'mon not often seen in ubers (65 uses last month).

Jolteon @ Choice Scarf
Modest Nature
Volt Absorb Ability
EVs: Hp 90, SpAtk 252, Spd 168
~ Thunder
~ Hidden Power [Ice]
~ Shadow Ball / Sleep Talk
~ Toxic / Sleep Talk"


I think Jolteon is too weak for being a thread in the uber metagame. In all my XXX uber battles i never faced a Jolteon.
Look at this at its stats 65/65/95 in defences, they are very poor for ubers.

Nasty Plot Darkrai 88 % chance to 0HKO without SR, 100 % OHKO with SR

Deoxys-A with 396 Atk, 100 % 2HKO with Extremespeed
You need min 60 % health to survive this Atk 100% of the time

Rayquaza (very similar to Deoxys-A)

Kyogre with 336 SpA 79,4 - 93,2 % with Surf , 48% chance to OHKO with SR) it hits you as hard back as you hits it, without any EVs!)

Groudon Earthquake is an 100% OHKO, Dragon Claw needs 240 Atk EVs to 2HKO without SR ,52 with SR) (you need a crit to have a chance to beat it) Counter Nr.3

Diagla with 399 SpA DP 2HKO 100% , DM 50 % OHKO without SR , 100% with SR Counter Nr.2

Blissey, 6HP/252Def/SpD252/+SpD 3HKO with ST, Thunder only 6HKO with standart damage, Counter Nr.1


The main problem with Jolteon is that many of the uber pokemon can handle it without much problems. I did not mentioned Latias/os and the two Girantina forms, but they work similar like Diagla. In addition to what the uber Metagame is concentrate to Electric/Ice/Dragon attacks. Every good team has a resitance to Electric or Ice .( maybe not Dragon). So if you get looked into any attack you will face a powerful counter, who gets a free turn.
As darknessmalice said, if you want to use a similar pokemon like Jolteon, use Mewtwo.
It has the same speed, expect for the SpD all its stats are better. And with its huge movepool it has many usefull opportunities.

 

[faint]

I run a 252 HP / 62 Def / 196 SpD Forretress with a Careful nature, which is pretty much needed due to it's average SpD. I also run it alongside Light Screen which gives it a nice jump on anything from Darkrai to Mewtwo's lacking a fire move. Light Screen / Explosion / Toxic Spikes / Rapid Spin or Spikes is the entire set I use. As of now I run Rapid Spin however Spikes is just as good if you lack some form of Deoxys.

 

[faint]

Since alot of this topic is now on different Pokemon that can be used in the Uber tier, I was wondering about trying Cloyster. Some notable things about Cloyster is that it has the unique ability Skill Link, and alongside his Icicle Spear attack it can easily break through Substitues made by Garchomp and friends.

Cloyster also has Ice Shard which can be incredibly helpful in taking out that +2 Atk Rayquaza that is currently destroying your team or that 1 HP Deoxys-A that you can't outspeed. With ice moves being so great in the Uber tier, despite being a low base power coming off an average attack it can still be helpful at key moments.

It also learns various other moves such as Explosion, Toxic Spikes, Spikes, Ice Beam and Rapid Spin. Now this may seem like an inferior Forretress (besides Ice Beam) but it all honestly it isn't. Cloyster has an amazing 504 max defense, which even without any EV's is equivalent to about the same defense as a Forretress with 252 EV's added into it. This allows it to survive basically any unboosted physical hit in the game (other than Explosion or Selfdestruct.) Closyter's sad let down is his horrible HP, which even maxed out can only hit 304. Closyter, however does have an even more pitiful SpD than said Forretress.

Thoughts and opinions would be nice.

Edit: I forgot to mention anything about it's pretty good typing. It has a 4x water and ice resist which means it can occasionally switch into threats such as Kyogre and Palkia locked into their respective water attacks, however it does have a Stealth Rock weakness, which will limit it's ability to switch in.

 

[kuja20]

Since alot of this topic is now on different Pokemon that can be used in the Uber tier, I was wondering about trying Cloyster. Some notable things about Cloyster is that it has the unique ability Skill Link, and alongside his Icicle Spear attack it can easily break through Substitues made by Garchomp and friends.

Cloyster also has Ice Shard which can be incredibly helpful in taking out that +2 Atk Rayquaza that is currently destroying your team or that 1 HP Deoxys-A that you can't outspeed. With ice moves being so great in the Uber tier, despite being a low base power coming off an average attack it can still be helpful at key moments.

It also learns various other moves such as Explosion, Toxic Spikes, Spikes, Ice Beam and Rapid Spin. Now this may seem like an inferior Forretress (besides Ice Beam) but it all honestly it isn't. Cloyster has an amazing 504 max defense, which even without any EV's is equivalent to about the same defense as a Forretress with 252 EV's added into it. This allows it to survive basically any unboosted physical hit in the game (other than Explosion or Selfdestruct.) Closyter's sad let down is his horrible HP, which even maxed out can only hit 304. Closyter, however does have an even more pitiful SpD than said Cloyster.

Thoughts and opinions would be nice.

This is an interesting idea. I know what it's like to get swept by an SD/DD Rayquaza, or the Deo-A with 1HP (although I usually have rocks set up by that time). I doubt it could take on anything that isnt Raquaza, Chomp, or revenge on Deo-A. I may use this in my next uber team myself, but in all honesty there is too many threats in Uber that kinda makes Cloyster's usefulness level quite low after a while. I guess you can have spikes and toxic spikes as well...maybe.

 

[Misa]

"Been trying this set out in ubers. I know this isn't necessarily a "Post your great uber sets!" thread, but it is a 'mon not often seen in ubers (65 uses last month).

Jolteon @ Choice Scarf
Modest Nature
Volt Absorb Ability
EVs: Hp 90, SpAtk 252, Spd 168
~ Thunder
~ Hidden Power [Ice]
~ Shadow Ball / Sleep Talk
~ Toxic / Sleep Talk"

Regarding to the choice scarf Jolteon set, I can't help but get the feeling that Raikou does a bit better at taking on this role, since he has more defenses and higher special attack to work with. The volt absorb ability seems pretty situational as far as recovery is concerned. I've used something like this before.

Raikou@Choice Scarf
Modest Nature
EVs: 6 Hp / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
-Thunder
-Hidden Power (Ice)
-Shadow Ball
-Sleep Talk/Toxic

Here's a set that I've been using in ubers for a while. The EVs outspeed Choice Scarf Palkia, while also outspeeding things like Rayquaza/Deoxys-A. Unlike ScarfJolt, Raikou actually has a chance of surviving a DD'd Life orbed extremespeed (not to mention a higher SpA), so it's worth considering over Jolteon imo.

 

[Matthew]

So, I've been trying to get a good team with Ho-Oh going. Problem is, Ho-Oh is so slow! What kind of team should I base Ho-Oh around?

 

[chenman333]

^^^ Perhaps spam paralysis? Perhaps combine various substitute users with paralysis.

Maybe pass Rock Polish's.

 

[Matthew]

I was thinking about Rock Polish, but then I I remember that Specs Kyogre loves to try to fire off Water Spouts, and I would be worried about Ho-Oh's survival.

 

[chenman333]

That's true. Kyogre is annoying because it really hampers Ho-oh's ability to sweep with Sacred Fire. Still, if you eliminate Kyogre, Ho-oh's huge SpD lets it take Surf all day long under the sun.

Perhaps utilize with Parasect, but then again, he doesn't like Sun.

 

[Matthew]

This is true, though I also have to find a way to get rid of Giratina and Lugia, I guess Wobbuffet could work

 

[Garganator]

I think probably combination of Wobba+Jumpluff to put with Groudon and Ho-Oh would help here. And of course Forry for Rapid Spinning. And one more random guy, for example Blissey and you have a solid team. I remember facing Jumpluff a few times against Theorymon and it's really most annoying bitch in Ubers with Sun up. And if you don't want to have "Theorymon-like" team then change Wobba for something like Bulk Up Dialga or any version of Palkia.

About Jolteon - I would prefer to run Timid Jolten with Specs. Max Speed and Timid outspeeds easily non-scarf Darkrai and probably OHKo it with Thunder. And in worse case it lets you have a speed tie with MewTwo, which is good speed. HP Ice for some dragons and Groudon and Shadow Ball for Giratina. And with Specs you can at last OHKO some stuff and you're fast enough to outspeeds most things without scarf. It needs some prediction, but I guess it can work.

 

[Sebastien Loeb]

I am playing a lot well lately in the Uber metagame, (I am King Troy on Shoddy) and I have noticed that as to the moment the metagame is structured, alone a Weavile is a good sweeper and also a fantastic revenge killer, supported even by Spikes & alone Stealth Rock can put in crisis as uber team.

 

[Theorymon]

I am playing a lot well lately in the Uber metagame, (I am King Troy on Shoddy) and I have noticed that as to the moment the metagame is structured, alone a Weavile is a good sweeper and also a fantastic revenge killer, supported even by Spikes & alone Stealth Rock can put in crisis as uber team.

By the way, I liked your idea of using Lucario in Ubers. I have now been using it to a lot of success, as most teams only defense agenst Lucario is Scarf Dialga. Even Giratina is 2HKOed by a 2+ orbed Crunch, Lugia is OHKOed by it with Stealth Rock @_@

 

[chenman333]

Lucario seems like a pretty good choice to be used with SD Quaza. Kill Lugia, Extreme Speed stuff up a bit, and then use SD Rayquaza to clean up.

The Scarf Dialga problem is still there though. Lucario, unfortunately, does not have the necessary pop to be 1hkoing a lot of stuff with ES. He certainly hurts, but he doesn't kill.

 

[Garganator]

Yeah, that idea SDLuke + SDQuaza sounds good, but without Wobba kinda hard to find free turns for it, especially in Ubers. And ScarfPalkia/ScarfChomp may give this trouble. But if you think it's troublesome, you may try Haban Berry SDChomp + SDLuke to get rid of Palkia/Dialga/Chomp and Chomp survives Ice Beam from Lugia, if she doesn't carry any SpA EVs (and often she doesn't), so it's not that bad.

And about Luke... Lugia can't Reflect up (it's faster) and easily heal off/whirlwind you away ? Defence drop may ruin it, but it doesn't always happen. It looks similar with physical wall MewTwo, especially with WoW, so this MewTwo variant may give trouble both Rayquaza and Lucario. I tried in Ubers SpecsLuke and it really works, but you need to have at least good prediction for it. I think CBLuke could also work, but sometimes it doesn't hit hard enough and also needs prediction.

 

[Jibaku]

After a break from ubers (to do some Emerald RNG stuff), I decided to give a shot today. In my return, I attempted a new set which has been working reasonably well for me. If you know my alt don't say it please.

Forretress @ Leftovers
Trait: Sturdy
EVs and Nature will be kept a secret
- Spikes / Toxic Spikes
- Payback
- Light Screen
- Rapid Spin

This is pretty simple stuff. Forry attracts Kyogre and friends so much I can fire a Light Screen on the switch and severely weaken Specs Water Spout. While Kyogre's switching in, it's probably going to be hurt by SR from a previous Pokemon, and that also contributes to cutting the power. You can safely send in Bliss, Latias, Palkia or even Dialga to absorb it. Under Light Screen, Forretress beats CM Giratina-O one on one with Payback (haven't calced if Thunder is strong enough to trash Forry, but Aura Sphere and Shadow Ball versions fail to get past this). It breaks Giratina-O's subs every time. Payback also deals decent damage to Mewtwo and Lati@s. The other two moves are self explanatory; I prefer Spikes for the quick damage, but go with Toxic Spikes if your team is very stallish.

 

[Misa]

@Jibaku: Here's also a Fortress variation that I've been using in ubers a lot as well.

Fortress @ Leftovers/Occa Berry
Trait: Sturdy
EVs: 240 Hp / 54 Atk / 216 SpD
Nature: Careful
- Explosion/Toxic Spikes
- Stealth Rock
- Reflect
- Rapid Spin

So, this thing is used as a SR/Spiker, but also used for setting up extra defense for my teammates as well. Stealth Rock on a switching opponent, or rapid spin away any spikes/SR on your field. Toxic spikes is an option, but explosion allows you to OHKO certain threats that might switch into Fortress for a surprising KO.

I used Careful Nature here so Fortress can come in on Ice beams and dragon pulses without much trouble.

EDIT: Also, Gen.Empoleon's Mixed Palkia set is working EXTREMELY well for me in the uber ladders right now. Thank you!

 

[Matthew]

It's Jibaku's set. Don't give me credit, I just wrote an analysis

 

[Misa]

It's Jibaku's set. Don't give me credit, I just wrote an analysis

Oh, I thought you wrote the analysis on it so I thought you invented the set. Still, Jibaku's set works amazingly well regardless.

By the way, does anyone still use kingdra in ubers nowdays?