The Value of Sleep Talk (Stategy Analysis and Discussion)

RaikouLover

is a Contributor Alumnus
Introduction​
Sleep-Talking is an underrated and undervalued strategy in the current Metagame. Sleep Talk used to be staple sets on many pokemon that lacked instant recovery as a chance to give them increased longevity. However, lately Sleep Talkers are becoming more and more rare due to the fast paced nature of the Metagame and Scizor and company spamming U-turn all over the place. So what is the real value of the strategy known as Sleep Talking?


Analysis​
Let me start by explaining the misconception about Sleep Talk users. Sleep Talk should NOT be used as a generic "fix" to defensive pokemon that lack instant recovery, such as Forretress. The main goal of Sleep Talking is to increase the users lifespan thus allowing it to check / counter threats throughout the course of the battle WHILE executing your own strategy simultaneously. Therefore, the important thing to keep in mind is that Sleep Talkers should contribute something to your team other than just absorbing hits. If they are not, you are merely playing into your opponents strategy. Let me start by giving an example of what I am talking about.​

The Bad!​


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Milotic (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Marvel Scale
EVs: 252 HP/252 Def/4 SDef
Bold nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Surf
- Toxic / Ice Beam
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
---​

This set was considered a good support option for Milotic to abuse Marvel Scale back in early DP. However, it has quickly been phazed out of existance. If you forget the fact Milotic has instant recovery (just for a second!), this set holds little value on your team other than absorbing Fire, Ice, and Water Attacks for the team. Toxic may seem useful, but it does nothing to advance a strategy, and invites many pokemon like Swords Dance Lucario in for set-up.​

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Empoleon (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 252 HP/4 SAtk/252 SDef
Calm nature (+SDef, -Atk)
- Surf
- Ice Beam
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
---​

Much the same as Milotic. Empoleon's typing allows many opportunties to counter threats such as SpecsMence, the early beast of DP. However, aside from switching in a couple times, it does nothing for the team other than provide offensive weakness. Many pokemon can set up on you while your awake, let alone sleeping.​

The Good.​

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Gyarados (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 248 HP/216 Def/44 Spd
Impish nature (+Def, -SAtk)
- Waterfall
- Dragon Dance / Roar
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
---​

As many have discovered, Gyarados is an AMAZING RestTalker, despite his Stealth Rock weakness. What makes this Gyarados different from that Milotic and Empoleon is that it can counter its threats such as Scizor, Lucario, Heatran, and Heracross, and also execute the team's strategy all in one through the use of Sleep Talk. With Dragon Dance, Gyarados becomes a good late-game sweeper especially if your team is designed to keep it alive by eliminating its counters. This is called establishing a win condition for your team. So although he is not the focus of the team offensively, a win condition is "if I eliminate this pokemon on the other team, I win if I can keep Gyarados alive through RestTalking." Now, this strategy also works with Roar on a semi or full stall team with entry hazards. Supporting him defensively will allow RestTalk to do its job of keeping him alive long enough to shuffle the other team. Again, it is still supporting the team in its own right through what it counters and phazing.​

Now that you have an example of a good RestTalker, I'm sure you know what to look for. Pokemon like Crocune and Cursepert are excellent RestTalkers because they work much like Gyarados. So before closing this thread, I have put together a list of undervalued effective RestTalkers that I have personally used. I will go into great detail describing their uses, what they can check, and how they can support your team and its strategy.​


Undervalued RestTalkers!​


So as promised, here is a list of the not-so common RestTalkers that I have used and how to use them effectively on your team, what they counter and how well they do it, and a brief description of what they do.​

Green = Pretty surefire counter
Orange = Checks in good health ONLY
Red = checks only certain moves or sets, be careful.
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Heatran (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 248 HP/164 Spd/96 SDef
Calm nature (+SDef, -Atk)
- Lava Plume
- Roar
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
---​

Heatran is an excellent choice on a Hazard's team. Most stall teams can't touch him as you Roar at will decimate their team. Lava Plume also cripples common switch in's with Burns.​

Counters: Scizor, Rotom, Metagross, Jirachi, Magnezone, Skarmory, Celebi, Forretress, Bronzong, Cresselia, Dusknoir, Porygon-Z, Heracross​

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Machamp (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Guts
EVs: 252 HP/16 Atk/232 Def/8 Spd
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Low Kick / Cross Chop / Close Combat
- Payback
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
---​

Guts Machamp is an EXCELLENT status absorber and is overshadowed by NoGuard. Use this to switch into any and all form of status and strike back with authority. Close Combat can be used as well with caution since they idea is to absorb status and run. Guts Hariyama works exactly the same way, so I'll list that EV spread here:​

Hariyama (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Guts
EVs: 16 HP/56 Atk/252 Def/184 SDef
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)​

Counters: Rotom-A, Tyranitar, Heatran, Blissey, Snorlax, Weavile, Dusknoir, Aerodactyl, Mamoswine, Smeargle​

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Poliwrath (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP/88 Atk/32 Spd/136 SDef
Careful nature (+SDef, -SAtk)
- Waterfall
- Bulk Up
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
---​

This is Poliwrath's best chance and set at OU. Poliwrath has excellent defensive typing, and Bulk Up can get him a sweep in the late-game. Best used on a team with Toxic Spikes to wear down other Water types.​

Counters: Scizor (CB Switch in only), Tyranitar, Heatran, Gyarados (without Earthquake or Taunt), Metagross, Choice Scarf Jirachi, Infernape, Blissey, Vaporeon (with Toxic Spikes), Empoleon, Bronzong, Aerodactyl, Weavile, Dusknoir, Mamoswine​

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Snorlax (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 16 HP/252 Def/240 SDef
Impish nature (+Def, -SAtk)
- Body Slam
- Whirlwind
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
---​

Snorlax is an excellent mixed wall with mammoth defenses. Will cause serious havoc on hazards teams when accompanied by a strong fighting resist. By Counters, this thing means it can use Whirlwind and rack up Damage, or stall them out with BodySlam + RestTalk​

Counters: Latias, Heatran, Blissey, Starmie, Magnezone, Jolteon, Electivire, Tentacruel​

Snorlax (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 16 HP/240 Def/252 SDef
Careful nature (+SDef, -SAtk)
- Frustration
- Curse
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
---​

Works much the same as the first Lax but takes a sweeping approach. Use with Tyranitar to rid Ghosts.​

Counters: Heatran, Blissey, Starmie, Magnezone, Jolteon, Electivire, Tentacruel​

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Hariyama (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 16 HP/240 Def/252 SDef
Careful nature (+SDef, -SAtk)
- Low Kick / Force Palm / Brick Break
- Whirlwind
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
---​

Again, works on the hazards team, checking a ton of threats and just being a general beast. This thing can switch into a lotta shit with its nice typing.​

Counters: Tyranitar, Heatran, Infernape, Blissey, Magnezone, Bronzong, Aerodactyl, Mamoswine​

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Raikou @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 192 HP/100 Def/216 Spd
Timid nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Thunderbolt
- Calm Mind
- Rest
- Sleep Talk​

Stalk CM Raikou is an underrated threat. It's walled by grounds, but the amount of the metagame it walls or can blow by is rather astounding. Works with Toxicspikes, or without your choice. Also can "counter" many special attackers via Pressure stall.​

Counters: Rotom, CM Latias (Pressure Stall), Gyarados (No EQ), Jirachi (Pressure Stall), Gengar, Blissey, Starmie, Vaporeon, Magnezone, Skarmory, Suicune, Zapdos, Togekiss, Empoleon, Jolteon (Toxic Spikes + Pressure Stall), Tentacruel, Cresselia​

Conclusion!​
So those are some of my underrated and underpopularized Sleep Talkers that can really benefit a team! Use this thread to discuss the importance and usefulness of Sleep Talking and brainstorm new ideas for Sleep Talk Pokemon.​

Thanks!​
 
Ive used that heatran to pretty good effect before except with a life orb and fire blast. Also i dont see how it counters metagross as most carry eq
 
Instead of Stalk CM Raikou i use Stalk CM Entei(what an awful name lol). But only in UU. Same to Stalk Bulk Up Poliwrath(god...).
It's a good strategy as long as you keep away from anything that's immune/resists and can set up against.

You don't need to use a set up move to make a Sleep Talk set good. Look at Regice for example. It can easily take massive hits from the special side(even some from th physical side), rest off the damage and start sleep talking to hit the enemy with Ice Beams and Thunderbolts.

Or, a OU example:Heracross. It can actually grab a Guts boost with Sleep Talk and start dishing out really powerful Megahorns. Coupled with Bulk Up and Heracross good hp/sp.def, it could mess up a team who doesn't have good bug resists(Skarmory or Heatran for example... maybe Lucario since Heracross resists Close Combat).
 
I've played against Sleep Talkers a few times, and that's revealed one problem with them - they do have a strong luck element. I was up against a Snorlax with Rest, Sleep Talk, Curse, and an attack, and Sleep Talk selected either Rest or Curse like ten times in a row; eventually I beat it with a critical hit I think it was.
Not to say they can't be effective. But even if one is good 'on average', there'll be battles where it just keeps calling Rest or the boosting move.
 
Oh yes: Criticals are the worst enemies to Sleep Talkers.
Actually there's only two users of a Sleep Talk set with a boosting move that are immune to criticals: Lapras and Armaldo.

Lapras being REALLY bulky(exact same bulk of Vaporeon on the special side, while it's bulkier on the physical side)with Curse and Avalanche/Waterfall to attack. But with an awful Ice typing.
Armaldo aslo being bulky(needs Sandstorm for maximize this) and quite powerful even with no evs, also uses Curse to set up and X-Scissor/Rock Slide to attack. Doesn't resist much things but also it isn't weak to many things also.

Both being NU, of course...
 
I've been using rest-talk bulk up dialga in ubers and it is amazing, so many people let it set up and then can't stop it from sweeping them with a boosted outrage, its also nice because sleep talk selecting outrage doesn't lock you in.
 
yea Anachronism is right
Rest-talk rotom is missing...one of the Most used rest-talkers and curse tar is great as well.

i like the raikou and heatran sets. i might try heatran in ou and raikou in uu sometime

nice article
 
I'm surprised you didn't metion Rotom as a user of Rest and Sleep Talk in conjunction. Rotom can dish out damage with its stab moves, use a stab move along with one of its special moves depending on the form, or use a stab move with Will o Wisp. The latter is by far the most common, providing an excellent counter to the myriad of physical threats found in today's metagame. Although Rotom doesn't have any particular "strategy" other than to check Pokemon like Gyarados, Scizor, and Lucario, it provides one of the sturdiest Pokemon available, and I believe it should be mentioned in the OP.
 
I didn't list RestTalk Rotom in the OP because I was emphasizing RestTalkers that aren't used as much. RestTalk Rotom, No Guard RestTalk Machamp, and RestTalk Suicune are common enough where everyone knows its uses already.
 
Here's what I love about RestTalking:

Defensively, the advantages are obvious. You can bring yourself back from the brink of destruction and keep an effective road block on the enemy. You also are less vulnerable to sleep inducers, although Breloom still is perfectly capable of screwing with teams. Status-dependent pokemon are also frustrated to no end. Blissey can't Toxic or Thunder Wave you for long. Will O Wisp is no longer a serious factor if you're using that RestTalk Gyara you posted in the OP.

What I really love about RestTalk is the offensive component. They generally aren't the most prolific sweepers, but in the late game, they can really shine. Once you eliminate specific threats, a RestTalk stat upper can usually comfortably set up for a satisfying sweep. Any Crocune user knows that once you've taken care of TrickScarfers, Jolteon, Vaporeon, and quite often Latias, you can CM up and overwhelm even Blissey eventually.

EDIT: Now that I look at it, it seems that Pursuit and Rest Talk seem to go hand in hand. I've never really pushed it that hard, but your thoughts?

Meanwhile Sleep Talk has disadvantages that are very obvious. Because of random selection, sometimes you will attack when you want to stat up, or vice versa, or sometimes you'll just Rest and waste a turn. Also, Rest Talk sometimes allows stat uppers in. Crocune does not enjoy SD Lucario if it has no CM's under its belt.
 
Then why didn't you mention it in the "Good" section of the OP? You provided two "Bad" examples, so why don't you list Rotom in conjunction with Gyarados? Everyone knows Gyarados' purpose as well, so why did you mention it?
 
It's barely been talked about, but Crocune is an obvious choice if you're looking for something to stall, of sorts. It has great defensive typing and the ability to CM up. The only problem is bulky waters, but I've used it on a few teams and it works wonders.

I think Sleep Talk by itself can also be discussed. For example, a Guts user such as Machamp could easily just run Sleep Talk and not Rest, allowing for another moveslot. For this, that and other pokemon could make a pretty awesome counter to Breloom: switch into the Spore and hit it with something before it sets up a sub.

That's only an example though, and I think it'd only be used in really specific situations (if a team needed a status absorber and a Breloom counter, for example). Most of the time though, it could be considered a waste of a moveslot. What do you all think? Are there any pokemon that could get away with just Sleep Talk?
 
Under the underrated Rest-talkers, maybe add rest-talk curse Regirock. It's surprisingly difficult to stop in SS and can sweep teams when paired with something like Gliscor.
 
I think the decline of rest talking isn't necessarily that people don't know how effective they can be. Anybody who looked at a suicune or snorlax would quickly learn just how powerful and effective it can be. I think, rather, the decline can be because of the amount of trick users on some people's teams.

I haven't played competitively for a while but last time I played trick was a little too common. Quite a few times I fought teams with half the users tricking. So this whole mentality of "just deal with the trick users before you use a rest talker" gets to become a large feat leaving your pokemon useless until you do overcome it.

It's a big hassle in the face of tricking I think but I will say that it is always worth it. Restalk machamp, while no longer my favorite machamp set, is one of my old favorites. I even made a cursetalkingpert work a couple times.
 
towriss said:
Seconding that you add Regirock. He is on nearly every Stall team I use him over CroCune and he is a beast. Only a crit has a chance to take him down. However, outside of SS he is generally useless, which may be why he wasn't added in the first place, for being too situational.
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I can also attest to RT Regirock once it sets up. Problem is, it's difficult to set up. If Lucario, Gyarados, Salamence (less of a problem with this guy) get lucky and set up before Regirock gets a sufficient amount of Curses in, it's a lot of work down the drain relatively quickly. This is why you don't often see CurseTar of any sort because Close Combat screws it over too quickly, even for defense boosts.

And to the guy above me, I forgot to mention that. Trick Rotom and Latias are many sleep talkers worst enemies. I try to make sure I have something that doesn't get completely neutered by Trick, but usually these are frailer pokemon that get worn down or possibly beaten before the Tricker shows up.
 
I'm finding Sleep Talkers to be more and more necessary. I've found myself completely off guard lately when facing something like Breloom because considering how important each part of my team usually is, I always have to make the difficult decision of which Pokemon to simply give up to sleep, which is pretty much equivalent to losing a Pokemon. I've personally always been partial to Gyarados and Machamp. I actually prefer a specially defensive set on Gyarados as I feel it usually helps take its resists better (and hp electric from shit like vappy only doing ~40% is funny). I've also been facing a number of teams that lack a Pokemon to take sleep I'm surprised there aren't more people trying to take advantage of it lately.

Also please no "Cro"pokemon unless it is Crocune.
 
Haha, this might sound dumb, but where did "cro-" come from? Is there an origin there?

I never thought about Regirock...sounds like a really good idea. It goes back to the situational aspect of RestTalk...it depends on teams I guess. Trick users could really screw things up though. Another question: if a Machamp/anything else got tricked after it used Sleep Talk, what happens? It still chooses a random move, right? If that's the case, it's just a matter of resting on the switch I suppose.
 
csteclaire said:
Haha, this might sound dumb, but where did "cro-" come from? Is there an origin there?

I never thought about Regirock...sounds like a really good idea. It goes back to the situational aspect of RestTalk...it depends on teams I guess. Trick users could really screw things up though. Another question: if a Machamp/anything else got tricked after it used Sleep Talk, what happens? It still chooses a random move, right? If that's the case, it's just a matter of resting on the switch I suppose.
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Back in ADV there was a user named Cromat who popularized the Crocune set we know today. I think the resemblance is clear. Getting tricked on Sleep Talk is a bad thing. You get locked in on Sleep Talk, but when you wake up, you are screwed. This is why Trick is incredibly bad for Rest Talkers.
 
Okay cool, thanks. And true, after those two turns or whenever it can really be bothersome. It's almost a shame that so many Trick users are available in OU; they seem to be a clear bane to RestTalkers.
 
csteclaire said:
Okay cool, thanks. And true, after those two turns or whenever it can really be bothersome. It's almost a shame that so many Trick users are available in OU; they seem to be a clear bane to RestTalkers.
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Completely agreed. Platinum turning the OU metagame into a Trick circus really has hurt stall (although good stall teams have a plan for coping with trick), sleep talkers, and slower stat uppers. Without Trick, I bet Crocune, RT Latias, Gyarados, etc might be more common.
 
bearsfan092 said:
Completely agreed. Platinum turning the OU metagame into a Trick circus really has hurt stall (although good stall teams have a plan for coping with trick), sleep talkers, and slower stat uppers. Without Trick, I bet Crocune, RT Latias, Gyarados, etc might be more common.
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Which is a shame...I'd much rather have a high-risk, high-reward strategy like Sleep Talk than a single move able to screw that whole strategy up. Although Trick has its uses, I'm not sure if it being tutored to so many...looking at the list of the pokemon able to learn it by tutoring (on Bulbapedia), I can see at least 15 OU pokemon that can use it. Way too many for a relatively small tier (50-ish?)
 
It is true that most sleep talk strategies are used on pokemons that don't really have a recovery move and sometimes we just put it in not worrying about the consequences IMO rest talk milotic isn't so bad after all, I've used the same one ever since ADV and it has worked wonders on teams no one is really expecting it it can absorb a status toxic burn etc and resists many attacks and rest the damage while keeping marvel scale, obviously it has some problems with the current metagame but it is a surprise since no one is really expecting one and if an umprepared team is facing one it can be quite a trouble.
 
Oh my god, rest-talk Raikou was amazing to watch in ADV even though Dugtrio was a bitch :(, and brings back some awesome memories. I have to agree with Jabba though, specially defensive rest-talk Gyarados is better than y'all give it credit for.

The problem with Trick to stop stuff like CM Refresh Latias, Crocune, Curselax, Cursetar, is the fact that it's really predictable and a "one trick pony", you can easily switch into something to take the predicted trick and then bring in your pokemon again to set up and they will be unable to do anything this time around (unless they predict it and bring in something that can do sufficient damage)
 
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