The Value of Sleep Talk (Stategy Analysis and Discussion)

Idea of Specially Defensive Gyarados made me quite curious, so I tested few damage calcs to see how it looks. Also created few situations to see how it works. It's not bad and in some places it's interesting ;).

MixMence 2OHKoes you with Draco Meteor no matter what when Stealth Rock is up. Without it however, Gyarados makes almost perfect Mence check (only fearing CBMence and SpecsMence). When you face DDMence, Intimidiate show it's magic - of course you die to Outrage, but -1 Outrage can't 2OHKo Porygon2, as double Intimidiate kicks in and you outsmarted opponent with this play. And Salamence user is forced to use Outrage or you just Roar him out. Or you just switch in bulky steel to easily eliminate Outraging Salamence. If you can keep SR away from battlefield, this Gyarados makes surprisngly effective Mence check. Forretress is good partner here as you absorb fire attacks aimed on it so easily and Rapid Spin is always great addition here. However, something else for Rotom-H would be nice and Tyranitar works here having good defensive synergy with you.

Gyarados also makes solid check for Gengar without Thunderbolt, as best neutral hit Gengar may dish out against you (which is Specs Shadow Ball) has only 13% chance to 2OHKO you with SR up. Substitute versions are easily dealt with, however Trick is annoyance, which don't help you.

Infernape is beaten 100% of time, if it doesn't run physical electric attack (and it's really rare) or if it doesn't run SD set. NP Mixape deals... 31% max with Nasty Plotted Grass Knot, which is quite impressive. And Close Combat with Intimidiate deals laughable damage, so yeah, you win ;).

Interesting thing is, that you still may check Lucario and now even better, as Specs Lucario can only 2OHKO with HP Rock and only if SR is up. Without it, it's impossible. +1 Close Combat deals 34.3% - 40.4%, so you may switch in and Roar it out. You loose to Stone Edge versions, but physically bulky Gyara has the same problem, so it doesn't matter.

Scizor also has similar problem, as it deals 21.6% - 25.6% with +1 Bullet Punch and you also may Roar it out, so you still deal quite well with physical attackers if you need to. The best what Scizor can do is 33.8% - 39.8% with +1 Night Slash.

Another interesting thing is that Life Orb Heatran with HP Electric deals... 73.1% - 86.3% damage, which is quite nice. Again SR is annoying, but still it's not bad. Without it you only have problems with Explosion.

Situation with Latias is interesting, as you may also check it, however Specs Draco Meteor 2OHKoes you, so it may be troublesome in some situations. Thunderbolt is also dangerous, but you may check few versions, especially when Latias like to run HP Fire to deal with Scizor. Offensive Latias with Life Orb deals 31.2% - 36.8% with Dragon Pulse, so you may Roar it out again, however you can't beat it one on one unfortunately.

Anyway, I think I'll try this set as it looks interesting on paper ;). I hope someone find this little analyses usefull and will want to also try it ;).
 
348.png

Armaldo @ Leftovers/Apicot Berry
Battle Armor
252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful (+SpD, -SpA)
Rest
Sleep Talk
Curse
Stone Edge / X-Scissor

This would require Sandstorm support from Hippowdon to be very effective. What makes Armaldo more unique as a Cursing wall is his ability. It prevents Critical Hits, so its defense boosts are never passed by such hax. Apicot Berry can be used to raise Special Defense, but would kinda be risky since you need to be at low HP and you're slow, but having a Special Defense stat at 639 would be extremely frustrating for enemies to take down. Stone Edge is perhaps the better option over X-Scissor as it offers better coverage, and the low PP is made up with Sleep Talk.
 
Idea of Specially Defensive Gyarados made me quite curious, so I tested few damage calcs to see how it looks. Also created few situations to see how it works. It's not bad and in some places it's interesting ;).

Thanks for all those, it's amazing at how bulky Gyara can get...pretty scary at how good it is on both ends of the spectrum XD


Gyarados also makes solid check for Gengar without Thunderbolt, as best neutral hit Gengar may dish out against you (which is Specs Shadow Ball) has only 13% chance to 2OHKO you with SR up. Substitute versions are easily dealt with, however Trick is annoyance, which don't help you.

Again, Trick wouldn't be fun on a RestTalker. And no offense, but I don't think I've ever not seen a Thunderbolt on a Gengar. However, this is a great way to counter Specs or Scarf Gengars locked into something else.

Anyway, I think I'll try this set as it looks interesting on paper ;). I hope someone find this little analyses usefull and will want to also try it ;).

Again, thanks for these! Really good calculations; it shows that RestTalk isn't as screwed as others think.


348.png

Armaldo @ Leftovers/Apicot Berry
Battle Armor
252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful (+SpD, -SpA)
Rest
Sleep Talk
Curse
Stone Edge / X-Scissor

This would require Sandstorm support from Hippowdon to be very effective. What makes Armaldo more unique as a Cursing wall is his ability. It prevents Critical Hits, so its defense boosts are never passed by such hax. Apicot Berry can be used to raise Special Defense, but would kinda be risky since you need to be at low HP and you're slow, but having a Special Defense stat at 639 would be extremely frustrating for enemies to take down. Stone Edge is perhaps the better option over X-Scissor as it offers better coverage, and the low PP is made up with Sleep Talk.

This is a really effective set. I think the fossils in RSE are pretty overrated. Having huge defenses on both sides and pretty decent HP helps a bunch when RestTalking, so it seems ideal. It doesn't hurt when Armaldo has a great Attack stat, too, so it could potentially sweep a team while under a sandstorm with a few Curses under its belt. Thanks for this moveset, I'm going to try it out when I get the time :D

The Cradily RestTalk set on the analysis page is effective too, and shows that RestTalk could be used with walls to get rid of a huge weakness: namely, status. I'll post it here:

Cradily @ Leftovers
Suction Cups
Careful | 252 HP | 240 Def | 16 SDef
Rock Slide | Rest | Sleep Talk | Toxic

The most effective way to counter a Cradily after it's established itself is usually to Toxic. This set completely destroys that strategy, and hits back with its own Toxic. You could even swap Toxic for Curse for a similar strategy to Armaldo's moveset above.
 
You should probably use Earthquake or Hidden power Fire over Toxic on that Cradily, otherwise you're going to get destroyed by steel types.
 
You know, that might actually be pretty good for a curser. The only problem is, it can't counter Salamence like Regirock can. It does have an easier time against stuff like Machamp, though, taking less damage from Dynamic punch.
 
Thanks for all those, it's amazing at how bulky Gyara can get...pretty scary at how good it is on both ends of the spectrum XD

At first it looks strange, but you may just look at Gyarados defences and 95/100 special defence is really good number. Heck, Jirachi has 100/100 and some people use it to tank special hits (especially in Ubers), but of course with totally different resistances. Just avoid electric attacks and you're fine. More then fine.

Anyway, I tested this Gyarados in 15 battles and so far I'm satisfied. It works as a perfect mixed wall, taking hits really well. Also I discovered when I played with this guy as he still stay as a solid check for Kingdra, only fearing Specs Draco Meteor, which is quite rare. It also survives any hit from Kingdra under rain, so it's pretty safe to use this guy as Kingdra check if needed against this type of teams. It also was quite funny, when I faced Dragon Dance Mixed Kingdra and it dealt 42% of health with Draco Meteor

Again, Trick wouldn't be fun on a RestTalker. And no offense, but I don't think I've ever not seen a Thunderbolt on a Gengar. However, this is a great way to counter Specs or Scarf Gengars locked into something else.

I agree I wouldn't switch Gyarados at the first time, as Trick is totally crippling for Gyarados (but I don't think that using Trick at first time with Gengar is good idea, as Gengar may need it later to revenge kill Gyarados or Salamence). And I disagree with THunderbolt on every single Gengar set. SubPuncher almost never use Thunderbolt, the same Substitute Special, MYSTICgar also runs as a standard Focus Blast/Shadow Ball/HP Fire. High usage of Scizor helps Gyarados alot, as many Gengars prefer to use HP Fire just for Scizor. These days Gengar use Thunderbolt mostly on Scarf set and most Scarfers will switch on you anyway as Gyarados mostly use Dragon Dance ;). But if you switch for example Snorlax and you feel that Gengar may use Focus Punch, Gyarados switches in and easily Roars out Gengar or just attack with Waterfall. Also as you said you may check choice sets without problems. As a check Gyarados is fine. And he checked those few Gengar that I met.

I'll test it in few more matches, but my semi-stall team like this addition - it fixed my Infernape and Kingdra weaknesses, also adding last resort check to Lucario and Scizor if needed (Rotom is quite shaky, Pursuit is not sexy). Thanks for suggestion Jabba, as I really like it ;).

And that Armaldo idea... it's quite interesting, but I would also go with Rock Slide. Armaldo has good enough typing (just get rid of bulky waters) and good base attack to start being threatening after 1-2 curses. Maybe I'll consider it building Sandstorm team ? I think it's interesting especially for UU and NU teams ;) with Hippotas support.
 
I have a team that uses Crocune, and the main thing about it was that it always seemed to Sleep Talk back to rest, which would fail, and then that basically just gave my opponent a free move. I'm seeing more and more people using Rest with Chesto Berry just to be able to heal and then wake up, and that is 100% reliable for a one time use. SleepTalk is just too unreliable in my opinion, and there are better options out there.
 
I have a team that uses Crocune, and the main thing about it was that it always seemed to Sleep Talk back to rest, which would fail, and then that basically just gave my opponent a free move. I'm seeing more and more people using Rest with Chesto Berry just to be able to heal and then wake up, and that is 100% reliable for a one time use. SleepTalk is just too unreliable in my opinion, and there are better options out there.

What, like Snore?

You don't just throw in a ResTalker into any team. It supports your team with a long-living status absorber (if you don't like Breloom), but yes, it is unreliable. That's why you have 5 other teammates. They'll check your set-uppers so the ResTalker can check status.
 
348.png

Armaldo @ Leftovers/Apicot Berry
Battle Armor
252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful (+SpD, -SpA)
Rest
Sleep Talk
Curse
Stone Edge / X-Scissor

This would require Sandstorm support from Hippowdon to be very effective. What makes Armaldo more unique as a Cursing wall is his ability. It prevents Critical Hits, so its defense boosts are never passed by such hax. Apicot Berry can be used to raise Special Defense, but would kinda be risky since you need to be at low HP and you're slow, but having a Special Defense stat at 639 would be extremely frustrating for enemies to take down. Stone Edge is perhaps the better option over X-Scissor as it offers better coverage, and the low PP is made up with Sleep Talk.

I think I'd need to see this in action before I get my hopes up. In sandstorm, you do reach 426 Sp. Def, which is quite good, but with a Stealth Rock weakness, you'll find yourself reaching for Rest a little quicker than you would like against anything that attacks with super effective moves from the special half of the attack spectrum.

Also, all your attacking options are 4x resisted by Lucario, who can easily outpace you with Swords Dance. Just to put it in perspective, a +2 Stone Edge from your variant of Armaldo only manages 31% - 36.3%, which isn't even guaranteed due to Stone Edge's shaky accuracy. Also, the odds are you are probably only at +1 when Lucario enters the field, so the damage is probably even less.

Not to mention that Skarmory can phaze you out without too much of a hassle. A +2 Stone Edge does 46.7% - 55.1% to the standard Spiker Skarmory, who at that point is faster than you and can Roost away the damage and reduce your damage output due to Skarmory's negation of its flying type. From here, Skarmory can Whirlwind you away.

Armaldo also isn't much of a real threat to CB Scizor. Against a +1 defense Armaldo, CB Scizor's Bullet Punch does 61.6% - 72.9% and 46.3% - 54.8% against a +2 Armaldo, a surefire 2HKO, especially with an SR Weak pokemon like Armaldo. Not even rest alleviates this problem, as you're stuck at +1 while Scizor is plunking away at your HP.

There are probably other problems I've neglected to mention, especially things like Taunt Gliscor, but my point is, I believe that your RestTalk Armaldo is a highly ineffective set.

EDIT: Also, PP stall SubRoost Zapdos will make your life miserable. Won't bother to run much in the way of calcs.
 
I think I'd need to see this in action before I get my hopes up. In sandstorm, you do reach 426 Sp. Def, which is quite good, but with a Stealth Rock weakness, you'll find yourself reaching for Rest a little quicker than you would like against anything that attacks with super effective moves from the special half of the attack spectrum.

Also, all your attacking options are 4x resisted by Lucario, who can easily outpace you with Swords Dance. Just to put it in perspective, a +2 Stone Edge from your variant of Armaldo only manages 31% - 36.3%, which isn't even guaranteed due to Stone Edge's shaky accuracy. Also, the odds are you are probably only at +1 when Lucario enters the field, so the damage is probably even less.

Not to mention that Skarmory can phaze you out without too much of a hassle. A +2 Stone Edge does 46.7% - 55.1% to the standard Spiker Skarmory, who at that point is faster than you and can Roost away the damage and reduce your damage output due to Skarmory's negation of its flying type. From here, Skarmory can Whirlwind you away.

Armaldo also isn't much of a real threat to CB Scizor. Against a +1 defense Armaldo, CB Scizor's Bullet Punch does 61.6% - 72.9% and 46.3% - 54.8% against a +2 Armaldo, a surefire 2HKO, especially with an SR Weak pokemon like Armaldo. Not even rest alleviates this problem, as you're stuck at +1 while Scizor is plunking away at your HP.

There are probably other problems I've neglected to mention, especially things like Taunt Gliscor, but my point is, I believe that your RestTalk Armaldo is a highly ineffective set.

EDIT: Also, PP stall SubRoost Zapdos will make your life miserable. Won't bother to run much in the way of calcs.

It's a set that needs testing, and definitely needs team support.
I don't know if you noticed that all counters you listed (besides Zapdos and Gliscor) can be dealt with Magnezone, while the other two share a few weaknesses so it shouldn't be hard to finish them off either.

I really do think that with good support this Armaldo could work. Maybe I'll do some testing later.
 
Well, against Trick, there's always Gastrodon or Muk...
Or mail. It's a useless item otherwise, but mail can't be tricked. So if you're really paranoid about Trick users, run mail and there's no more problem.

Again, Trick wouldn't be fun on a RestTalker. And no offense, but I don't think I've ever not seen a Thunderbolt on a Gengar. However, this is a great way to counter Specs or Scarf Gengars locked into something else.
I've run bolt-less Scarf Gengar. It sucked though; think it was only there for two or three battles, then I put Thunderbolt back. (I ran Psychic instead, because I was having big trouble with Machamp. But it doesn't even OHKO and then I get Paybacked.)
 
What, like Snore?

You don't just throw in a ResTalker into any team. It supports your team with a long-living status absorber (if you don't like Breloom), but yes, it is unreliable. That's why you have 5 other teammates. They'll check your set-uppers so the ResTalker can check status.

I did mean better self healing moves as well as better ways to use rest and benefit from it.
 
The benefit of RestTalking is that ideally, 2/3 of the moves you can choose while sleeping should be helpful. But yeah, could a specially defensive RestTalk DD Gyarados be viable? Hows this for an EV spread:

Gyarados (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 216 HP/112 Def/44 Spd/136 SDef
Careful nature (+SDef, -SAtk)
- Waterfall
- Dragon Dance
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
---

Outspeeds no speed Rotom before DD, and Base 95s and most Jirachi after a DD... 297 SpDef (thats to a bonus point), 385 HP for lefties and SR damage, and 222 Def. And I found from using Salamence, with a solid base 95 HP, you gain more defense from pumping both defenses rather than tacking on more HP, especially with Intimidate because its amplified.
 
It's a set that needs testing, and definitely needs team support.
I don't know if you noticed that all counters you listed (besides Zapdos and Gliscor) can be dealt with Magnezone, while the other two share a few weaknesses so it shouldn't be hard to finish them off either.

I really do think that with good support this Armaldo could work. Maybe I'll do some testing later.
Yes, with support, anything could work. However, Magnezone is somewhat limited purpose, which is what I think prevents it from being more widespread than it is. My point is, that particular Armaldo is less helpful and more trouble than it's worth on paper. Prove me wrong.
 
If you can get rid of every pokemon on your opponent's team with a fighting move, specially defensive Rest/STalk Curse TTar is pretty much unstoppable. It is ridiculous just how many pokemon it can set up - even things with STAB super effective moves like Vaporeon Surf can't take it down fast enough. I've even managed to set it up in the face of a Roar-less Hippowdon, although that is pretty risky as I think it requires you STalk Curse on your first try.

I'm talking something like 252 HP / 252 SpDef Rest/STalk/Curse/(Crunch/Payback). I've always liked Crunch because the potential defense drop can help you take down Steels if you're doing a last pokemon come back, but Payback does have that enticing PP and extra power.

Rest/Sleep Talk/Dragon Dance/Outrage Kingdra is also pretty fun, but pretty much requires Magnezone to not be a dead weight. It's great for people who rely on things that rely on status and 3HKOs to beat Kigdra (Celebi, Vaporeon).
 
I am trying very hard to work Rest/Sleep Talk onto my team, as it is devastated by status from Blissey or Celebi. However, the only pokemon that is even capable of utilizing the moves without ruining my team strategy is Zapdos. I am given the choice of using either Thunderbolt/HP Ice/Substitute/Roost or Thunderbolt/HP Ice/Rest/Sleep Talk to "fix" the status problem my team has.

The sub almost never comes up in time it seems, as I run it on a Baton Pass team, and most people see the switch coming or try to ruin my Togekiss outright. If Zapdos switches into a Thunder Wave, I can't beat Blissey and it's game over.

Rest, even though it leaves me really vulnerable for those two turns I am sleeping, gives me the chance to beat Blissey with +4/+6 Thunderbolts that I wouldn't have if I was paralyzed. Celebi also takes a dirt nap after I get passed at least +2.

I would never have thought to use the set before I read this thread, but I think it will work quite nicely. Only problem is I can't think off the top of my head how to EV differently to "adjust" to the two sleeping turns in case something like Scizor or Heracross decide to switch in and start setting up.
 
I'm surprised Rotom wasn't mentioned here. I am however, glad that Gyarados found a niche as a rest-talker; he's got all the great attributes of a rest-talker. Respectable defenses, great HP, and Intimidate.
 
I'm surprised Rotom wasn't mentioned here. I am however, glad that Gyarados found a niche as a rest-talker; he's got all the great attributes of a rest-talker. Respectable defenses, great HP, and Intimidate.

As RaikouLover mentioned in an earlier post, Resttalk-Rotom-A, No Guard Machamp and Crocune are the well known rest-talkers; he wanted to show the qualities of the underrated ones.


I have a question. Why did they remove Kingdra's Rest-talk sets from the analysis? What is it some kind of disadvantage it brought to teams? Or was it just plain dead weight?

With only two weaknesses, base 95 in all of its defensive stats, and while it uses Outrage via Sleep Talk it doesn't even get confused! Perhaps SD Lucario sets-up on it? It doesn't have any phazing move other than the gimmicky yawn.. which is somewhat of a disadvantage.
 
I'm not sure whether this would work, due to its poor stats and annoying weaknesses, but in the lower tiers, a Rest/Snore/CM/Shadow Ball set on Girafarig could be used to combat STalk's unreliability and make use of Early Bird.
 
I'm not sure whether this would work, due to its poor stats and annoying weaknesses, but in the lower tiers, a Rest/Snore/CM/Shadow Ball set on Girafarig could be used to combat STalk's unreliability and make use of Early Bird.

I would go with Snore, especially since you're using Calm Mind, Maybe Sleep Talk is an option here.
Of course you can only use it during your one turn of sleep.
So you have higher chance of Sleep Talking something usefull (either CM or Shadow Ball).
 
I think it was already mentioned, but Dodrio can learn it too, along with Kangaskan and Houndoom (the most notable Early Bird users).

The latter two have better secondary abilities (Scrappy and Flash Fire, respectively), but Kanga could really utilize a set:

Kangaskhan @ Leftovers
Scrappy/Early Bird | 252 HP | 252 Atk | 4 Def
Rest | Sleep Talk | Double Edge | Hammer Arm

Early Bird isn't even really needed, because something's definitely going to be hit with Scrappy, whether a base 100 Fighting move or a 180 Normal move (factoring in STAB). The cool part is, it's so bulky that it can afford to get recoil damage.

By the way, this was copied almost verbatim from the analysis page. I don't want to be that guy XD
 
Heatran is an amazing RestTalker, if only because of its ability to full come into any Rotom with no problem. I run Life Orb for an extra bit of power, making it a much bigger hassle to stall teams. Life Orb also ensures that Blissey can't purely stall you(Rest for two turns, then Lava Plume/ Earth Power, then Rest for another two turns).
 
You have to take into consideration that Milotic is not a counter for Swords Dance Lucario and that it has become rarer and rarer in OU... To count out that set now is entirely shortsighted ... a 50% boost to Defense is nothing to sneeze at, and in my experiences this boost has allowed me to warrant a Calm nature, so that Marvel Scale defense and Special Defense will be the same... Milotic is a wonderful status absorber, and Sleep Talk with Rest allow her to do this a little better.
 
You have to take into consideration that Milotic is not a counter for Swords Dance Lucario and that it has become rarer and rarer in OU... To count out that set now is entirely shortsighted ... a 50% boost to Defense is nothing to sneeze at, and in my experiences this boost has allowed me to warrant a Calm nature, so that Marvel Scale defense and Special Defense will be the same... Milotic is a wonderful status absorber, and Sleep Talk with Rest allow her to do this a little better.

What does a sleeping Milotic do besides spamming Surf/Ice Beam?
 
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