Theorymon Discussion and Viability Ranking

[sora13]

I came up with this idea after using forretress for a little while.

What if there is a move which has the switch initiative of U-turn/Volt Switch but instead of damaging the opponent, it gave 33% recovery?

For name's sake, let's call this move Recovery Fade.

Basically, it is no longer an attack, but it still switches out and gives you the switch advantage. Since it is no longer an attack, there are two obvious implications that come as a result:

1) The attack doesn't care about type immunities like attacks do (Talking about volt switch on ground types), so it's very consistent in terms of how easily it can be used
2) Conversely, to counter the lack of "type immunities", it can be shut down by Taunt users.

To me, this move would be downright amazing for so many defensive pokemon. The one pokemon that I have in mind is Forretress. Here's a simple set:

Forretress @ Leftovers
Impish Nature
252 HP / 252 Def / 6 Sp. Def
-Hazards
-Rapid Spin
-Gyro Ball
-Recovery Fade

As many people who have used Forretress know, it has amazing utility while having unique typing that allows it to take many common attacks nicely. This on top of it's nice Defense stat and it's access to Volt switch allows it to act as a premier pivot/hazards control pokemon. However, the one thing that Forretress desperately wants is some sort of recovery other than leftovers. Let's face it - no one uses Volt Switch for the coverage it gains against bulky waters lol (Ok, it IS useful for breaking Gyarados's subs as you switch out). By changing the useless aspect of Volt Switch to something that not only allows it recovery, but allows it to gain switch initiative on ground types (Forretress certainly doesn't like Donphan and Hippowdon matchups), it would have much more longevity. Often the damage from various attacks like CB Scizor U-turn and Outrage from dragons start piling up quickly, even with it's great tolerance for those attacks. Finally, Recovery Fade allows Forretress to restore Sturdy more reliably. Sturdy is extremely useful ability and can allow it to get that critical Spin/Gyro Ball off, so having it more consistenly active is never a bad thing.

So guys your thoughts? Feel free to talk about other defensive pokemons' potential with this move, because I know a lot of other pokes could also abuse this move very nicely.

 

[ShootingStarmie]

I came up with this idea after using forretress for a little while.

What if there is a move which has the switch initiative of U-turn/Volt Switch but instead of damaging the opponent, it gave 33% recovery?

For name's sake, let's call this move Recovery Fade.

Basically, it is no longer an attack, but it still switches out and gives you the switch advantage. Since it is no longer an attack, there are two obvious implications that come with it:

1) The attack doesn't care about type immunities like attacks do (Talking about volt switch on ground types), so it's very consistent in this regard
2) Conversely, To counter the lack of "type immunities", it can be shut down by Taunt users.

To me, this move would be downright amazing for so many defensive pokemon. The one pokemon that I have in mind is Forretress. Here's a simple set:

Forretress @ Leftovers
Impish Nature
252 HP / 252 Def / 6 Sp. Def
-Hazards
-Rapid Spin
-Gyro Ball
-Recovery Fade

As many people who have used Forretress know, it has amazing utility while having unique typing that allows it to take many common attacks nicely. This on top of it's nice Defense stat and it's access to Volt switch allows it to act as a premier pivot/hazards control pokemon. However, the one thing that Forretress desperately wants is some sort of recovery other than leftovers. Let's face it - no one uses Volt Switch for the coverage it gains against bulky waters (Ok it IS useful for not letting gyarados set up a sub on you). By changing the useless aspect of Volt Switch to something that not only allows it recovery, but allows it to gain switch initiative on ground types (Forretress certainly doesn't like Donphan and Hippowdon matchups). It would become some much more long lasting since often the damage from various attacks like CB Scizor U-turn and Outrage from dragons start piling up quickly, even with it's great tolerance for those attacks. Finally, it allows it to restore Sturdy more reliably. Sturdy is extremely useful ability and can allow it to get that critical Spin/Gyro Ball off, so having it more consistenly active is never a bad thing.

So guys your thoughts? Feel free to talk about other defensive pokemons' potential with this move, because I know a lot of other pokes could also abuse this move very nicely.

You're essentially giving Forretress Regenerator (and the ability to see your opponents switch in, giving you momentum) as an ability in exchange for one more slot and possibly taking a hit. Imo this is so worth it. Forre is often worn down pretty quickly as it sets up hazards / spins away hazards, as it generally has to switch into hazards, probably tanking a physical attack, and potentially face Iron Barbs + Rocky Helmet damage from Ferrothorn. Recovery Fade would be incredible for Forretress, allowing it to stay around for the majority of the match. I also don't think it would be broken, as Forretress is often shut down by Taunt, and Forretress is pretty easy to KO with Special attacks before it get's the chance to use the move Recovery Fade.

Very interesting and unique idea

 

[GCSChris]

I came up with this idea after using forretress for a little while.

What if there is a move which has the switch initiative of U-turn/Volt Switch but instead of damaging the opponent, it gave 33% recovery?

For name's sake, let's call this move Recovery Fade.

Ok so basically, it's the ability Regenerator but happens with 0 priority (switching has +6). This would be pretty awesome. Heck, I don't mean to go overboard but imagine if Ammonguss got this move. Would this stack on top of Regenerator? If so, just try to to think about 66% recovery upon the use of Recovery Fade (nice name btw). If there was a Pokemon with access to Regenerator and Recovery Fade, that could be possibly broken if the pokemon is good enough (amoonguss, we're lookin right at you)

As for the move itself, I'd be usefull. I really like this idea of a defensive U-turn

 

[Chou Toshio]

We're getting parting shot after all.. But this move would be so good... Almost ridiculous. I would want to use it on defensive Celebi. Imagine it avoiding pursuit while also recovering its HP and getting natural cure. I often use baton pass immediately after switching into a water type, expecting them to switch. Now, my Celebi could do this without getting worn down by hazards or boosted water moves-- it would be so good. I wouldn't even need recover on a support set.



Imagine: recovery fade / t wave / perish song / Leaf Storm

On a defensive Celebi

 

[sora13]

Off the top off my head, the move also has lots of potential for Donphan, defensive Landorus-T, Amoonguss (lol) , Tangrowth (lol) , Tornadus-t (lol jk), Celebi (over u-turn/baton pass, let's assume it can escape pursuit with it), Metagross (let's just assume jirachi doesn't get it, this way it has a nice niche over it)

EDIT: Godammit Chou, ninja'd me on Celebi

 

[Chou Toshio]

Why are we just thinking defensive Pokes? Recovery Fade would be ridiculous on Gengar and Starmie. I'd want to use it on Lati@s too. Anything that is a good pivot and is worried about Pursuit.

Latios
Timid
4 HP / 252 Special Attack / 252 Spe
@Life Orb
-Draco Meteor
-Psyshock
-Thunderbolt
-Recovery Fade

Now I can come in and spam Draco Meteor as I like. TTar can't trap me, nor can Scizor. Recovery Fade blows off LO damage, and would almost make Bullet Punch useless. Just Recovery Fade to fix all my problems.

Recovery Fade Latios would be incredibly dangerous. Latias' great bulk might make it even better here.

 

[GCSChris]

We're getting parting shot after all.. But this move would be so good... Almost ridiculous. I would want to use it on defensive Celebi. Imagine it avoiding pursuit while also recovering its HP and getting natural cure. I often use baton pass immediately after switching into a water type, expecting them to switch. Now, my Celebi could do this without getting worn down by hazards or boosted water moves-- it would be so good. I wouldn't even need recover on a support set.



Imagine: recovery fade / t wave / perish song / Leaf Storm

On a defensive Celebi

yeah but pursuit works on a pokemon that uses u-turn. I don't see why this move would be different than u-turn/volt switch, but it would be more useful on Celebi and other psychic types if it did

EDIT: Okay Chou, I see the reasoning.

 

[Huskisson906]

So in essence it is a Status move that switches you out while healing you. Basicly baton pass with regenerator without the boost passing. So people with prankster that have this move could abuse the hell out of it. Imagine Whimsicott,Sableye, even Liepard would abuse this move more so Sableye and Whimsi than Liepard. Since they are better. A moveset with Whimsicott, Recovery Fade, Taunt, leech seed, sub. Could mess things up.

 

[Chou Toshio]

^I just figured because it doesn't interact with the enemy. I always imagined U-Turn/Volt Switchers getting hit because they run up to the opponent's face and hit them before trying to run away-- just asking to get smacked.

 

[sora13]

You know, if this move was implemented, we could have an influx of teams that are like defensive variants of Volt-Turn teams, possibly called Fade Teams haha. Would be extremely deadly with hazards up I imagine.

That being said, Defensive teams would get a huge boost, possibly the one they are looking for to become more viable this gen. Taunt would also be used a ton more to counter the influx of this move.

 

[klvkboom]

I like it. That way it dose not have to switch out whence you used Draco meteor on something. However since most things that can take a draco meteor are steel types. I do not think that a resisted hit will do much to a Specially defensive mon. That being said gotta love the rage that it will bring, and that 80 base power is not that much but it will do. The only CM mon that i will see a problem with this is Keldeo. After you already Fired off a Draco Meteor of course. Now If crits were Reliable then you could use them effectively Kyurem (if it learned it ) is proof with Frost Breath. Even Rotom-F could be a bit better.

I should've noted that the combination of Dragon/Ice already has poor coverage, so if the set were ever used I think it'll mainly be for that niche of bypassing SpA drops (or breaking a wall with Draco Meteor, then sweeping with Frost Breath). However, the concept is still there though and it could extend to other Pokes who could utilize it just as well.

Abomasnow and Mew come to mind, both have access to Frost Breath but they don't have a Draco Meteor-esque move. What if Abomasnow learned Leaf Storm? What if Mew learned Psycho Boost? Is the benefit from bypassing SpA drops something that these Pokes can use to great effect? The coverage still doesn't beat Steels though, meh.

What if there is a move which has the switch initiative of U-turn/Volt Switch but instead of damaging the opponent, it gave 33% recovery?

This idea actually seems to be on the stronger side. I'm leaning more on maybe too strong for the game, but even with a little tweaks it could be balanced (maybe 25% heal? or negative priority?).

For starters, it's a self heal. It's not 50%, but 33% is still pretty nice. Second, it switches you out, which means that you keep your momentum and have the advantage of the switch. It also very hard to counter: taunt isn't a move you see everywhere, at least Volt Switch can be blocked, U-Turn is resisted by many. This move could potentially revolutionize Stall teams, but it does so in a very frustrating way, by giving them both sustain and momentum, making it very hard for teams to beat unless they have a good Stallbreaker. For example Forretress, he easily forces soo many physical attackers to switch out. boom, advantage of the switch and a free heal. The heal is more of what pushes it to the top because it means that these Pokes can switch in while still being relatively healthy and just do it again, potentially healing more than what is done.

Negatives aside though, there are some crazy shenanigans that this attack would achieve. Imagine 2 Pokes using this back and forth to counter the opponent's switch in. After a few times both are full HP, good as new ._. I would also like to point out support Jirachi. It would be a very reliable Wishpasser as it can heal 33% on the way out, then the big heal for the next Pokemon. Very good concept, but it might be "too" good.

 

[Huskisson906]

The coverage still doesn't beat Steels though, meh.

Steel is still steel. But i guess they can always run a coverage move before they fire off their hypothetical Sp.A dropping move. Also if a person with overheat could learn frost breath that would make it pretty good, but unfortunately it is walled by water. :/

 

[Mikasa]

Nice thread I don't know if this one will be interesting enough but I will post anyway:
What if Gyarados and Charizard were respectively Dragon/Water and Dragon/Fire?

I fell like Charizard would be the most improved of the two but would still be too bad for OU, while Gyarados would improve less (no more SR and electric weaknesses and a secondary good STAB in the form of Outrage, but he loses bug and fighting resistances and Ground immunity) from the change but would still improve and maybe reach top OU usage.

 

[Halcyon.]

A base 100 Fire/Dragon type with Solar Power, Dragon Dance, and decent mixed attacking options wouldn't be OU? I think it absolutely would be. It would be a decent Scarfer for sun teams.

 

[Mikasa]

A base 100 Fire/Dragon type with Solar Power, Dragon Dance, and decent mixed attacking options wouldn't be OU? I think it absolutely would be. It would be a decent Scarfer for sun teams.

Well Sun already has two very powerful fire atackers on the form of Darmanitan and Victini and they are not OU (though they are OU viable for sure), Zard would have Dragon STAB and a better defensive type than both, but he would die too fast IMO thanks to the self-damage of Solar Power and with Blaze he would lack power, I guess he could be OU viable but not OU by usage.

 

[G-Von]

Nice thread I don't know if this one will be interesting enough but I will post anyway:
What if Gyarados and Charizard were respectively Dragon/Water and Dragon/Fire?

I fell like Charizard would be the most improved of the two but would still be too bad for OU, while Gyarados would improve less (no more SR and electric weaknesses and a secondary good STAB in the form of Outrage, but he loses bug and fighting resistances and Ground immunity) from the change but would still improve and maybe reach top OU usage.

Charizard would fly through the roof in usage. Yea it might be SR weak still but it isn't stripping half its life away each time. It's STAB's would have perfect coverage bar Heatran who would get destroyed by Focus Blast. It's special moveset would be Fire Blast/Draco Meteor/Focus Blast/filler. It could run a physical set but base 82 attack is so low for OU.

 

[Chou Toshio]

Dragon type would be a very mixed blessing for Gyarados. I think people underestimate how important Speed is for dragons. The fact that it would be outsped and OHKO'd by every Scarfed Dragon-type would be a big damper on Gyarados' Dragon Dance set (and I guarantee that if Gyarados became a Dragon-type, Scarf-Chomp and Scarf-Hax would jump in usage). I'm not even sure what it would set up on-- setting up on Ground and Fighting types would become harder (with Garchomp out of the question), while Gyarados really doesn't want to set up on Water-types because of Scald or W-o-W. Substitute would really facilitate doing so though, so I think it would be even more common than it is now. Dragon-type would be the last nail in Defensive-dos' coffin. On other hand, its STAB Outrage + Waterfall coverage would just be so freakin' amazing. SO AMAZING (it would be absolutely terrigying). Too bad Ferrothorn would now make Gyara its bitch though. BUT OURAGE WOULD BE AMAZING. While Gyara would still have lots of problems at +1 (with scarf Dragons), at +2, it would absolutely spell game over.

Charizard would definitely see OU usage, but would have problems with its Speed and lack of Draco Meteor (ignore this if we're giving it Draco Meteor). Honestly, I'm kind of disappointed that its missing both Hurricane and Agility, both of which would make it far more impressive. DD set is weaker than DD Latios-- think about that (ie. I'd probably use DD Latios). Still, it would only be weak to Rock, its STAB combo would be baller, and those Special attacks would hit HARD in the sun. If only it got agility... Then it would similar to Thudurus-T or Landorus-I in play style.

 

[Schpoonman]

Charizard IS base 100 Speed. Solar Power would lend itself to some real shenanigans, considering that for the measly cost of 1/8 health per turn in the sun it's absolutely nuking everything with Draco Meteor and Overheat.

 

[Mikasa]

I completely agree with Chou Toshio on Gyarados, being the slowest dragon on the tier would really decrease his usefulness, specially since he doesn't have a pseudo dragon neutrality like Dnite with his Multiscale, I think his best sets would be the ones who aim to obtain 2 DDs and end games, and I fell he would be a good user of berries too as he could either use Lum so he can setup all over rain teams (including scalds and toxics) or a dragon resist berry so he can get that second dance on dragons who think they are going to revenge, with 2 DDs and ferro removed I think almost nothing can stop the sweep (maybe Alakazam but alakazam can end any sweep).

As for Charizard, Solar Power seems appealing but 12,5% health loss per turn plus a SR weakness (and also remember he is no longer immune to Spikes) would make him die too fast unless you are very good at keeping rocks off the field, for sure Choice Scarf Solar Power on Sun would demolish everything but it needs alot of support, and IMO he would be in the exactly same place of Victini, usable for sure but not enough to leave UU.

 

[Halcyon.]

I completely agree with Chou Toshio on Gyarados, being the slowest dragon on the tier would really decrease his usefulness, specially since he doesn't have a pseudo dragon neutrality like Dnite with his Multiscale, I think his best sets would be the ones who aim to obtain 2 DDs and end games, and I fell he would be a good user of berries too as he could either use Lum so he can setup all over rain teams (including scalds and toxics) or a dragon resist berry so he can get that second dance on dragons who think they are going to revenge, with 2 DDs and ferro removed I think almost nothing can stop the sweep (maybe Alakazam but alakazam can end any sweep).

As for Charizard, Solar Power seems appealing but 12,5% health loss per turn plus a SR weakness (and also remember he is no longer immune to Spikes) would make him die too fast unless you are very good at keeping rocks off the field, for sure Choice Scarf Solar Power on Sun would demolish everything but it needs alot of support, and IMO he would be in the exactly same place of Victini, usable for sure but not enough to leave UU.

Yes, but what sun team isn't running a spinner to get rid of these hazards anyway? That's, like, the main objective for sun teams. Remove hazards, set up sun, sweep. Charizard could still be an absolute monster.

252 SpA Choice Specs Solar Power Charizard Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew in sun: 585-688 (171.55 - 201.75%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew in sun: 575-678 (168.62 - 198.82%) -- guaranteed OHKO

That's TIMID Charizard versus ADAMANT LO SHEER FORCE DARMANITAN. Charizard would hit harder than anything in OU. That's a pretty huge boon to sun if you ask me.

252 SpA Choice Specs Solar Power Charizard Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey in sun: 340-402 (52.14 - 61.65%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

O_o

 

[Huskisson906]

Yes, but what sun team isn't running a spinner to get rid of these hazards anyway? That's, like, the main objective for sun teams. Remove hazards, set up sun, sweep. Charizard could still be an absolute monster.

252 SpA Choice Specs Solar Power Charizard Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew in sun: 585-688 (171.55 - 201.75%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew in sun: 575-678 (168.62 - 198.82%) -- guaranteed OHKO

That's TIMID Charizard versus ADAMANT LO SHEER FORCE DARMANITAN. Charizard would hit harder than anything in OU. That's a pretty huge boon to sun if you ask me.

Yes but you still can't deny that LO has it's advantages over specs. Like the ability to switch moves. And Darm is only Slightly less strong vs a Specs Zard and quite a bit slower. Meaning it can still take out another pokemon with another move instead of spamming one continual move and get walled by say Tran but nothing faster than it like Lati@s and the like. Other than that it still will be powerful if Zard did have Stab Dragon moves with it. It would help the fanboys finally get their dream of a Dragon type charizard. Also i believe the sun's most common spinner is Donphan which sets up rocks also and helps the team sweep so thats a positive.

 

[klvkboom]

From my last post, I'm continuing off the interesting interactions you can have with 100% crit moves. This one is much more straightforward than the idea of "bypassing SpA drops".

What if Breloom or Hitmontop learned Storm Throw?

The idea behind Technician was to make weak hits into average hits. Well, the same can't be said for Storm Throw...

Now, Storm Throw is essentially considered a 80BP attack after the crit is counted for. However, it still bypasses Technician boost's 60BP restriction because the registered base is 40BP. This actually sounds pretty beast for Breloom/Hitmontop, because that 40BP gets boosted by Technician, and then even further by the crit, effectively making Storm Throw a 120BP attack. It becomes as strong as Close Combat and Superpower without the stat drops (both can still crit for more damage tho, lol). As an added bonus, the guaranteed crit means you ignore any DEF boosts your opponent has, as well as any ATK drops you may get from stuff like Intimidate.

The attack itself may not really be that game changing, but the fact that it has synergy with Technician is pretty neat. Their movesets would look so much more "fluid" having another attack boosted by Technician, and the attack itself easily holds its ground when compared to other powerful moves.

 

[EJ190]

Been following this for a while and decided to jump in.
What if mew got sketch ONCE through an event?
Mew is said to learn every move in the game so sketchmew does make sense. Even if its just one sketch it gives mew access to all the moves its ever wanted. With spore, spikes, qd, ssmash, s gear or um....rapid spin(?) in its movepool mew becomes a much more viable ou mon. Also 1sketchmew is more reliable than 4sketchsmeargle. Thoughts?

 

[MikeDawg]

Been following this for a while and decided to jump in.
What if mew got sketch ONCE through an event?
Mew is said to learn every move in the game so sketchmew does make sense. Even if its just one sketch it gives mew access to all the moves its ever wanted. With spore, spikes, qd, ssmash, s gear or um....rapid spin(?) in its movepool mew becomes a much more viable ou mon. Also 1sketchmew is more reliable than 4sketchsmeargle. Thoughts?

There was a CAP where a mon was given sketch once, and I wasn't around for it, but I don't believe it was found broken. At the same time though, mew has that very nice 100/100/100/100/100 spread. Combined with one of those insane boosting moves you have quite a threat.

I think what REALLY makes mew iffy with this one though is its access to baton pass. Not only can mew quiver dance to +2/3 or shift gear or shell smash/etc., it can then pass to keldeo/kyurem/etc for gg

 

[Chou Toshio]

What is Suicune Got Hydration?

Rest has always been Suicune's main means of recovery. Suicune's top-class defenses (tougher than almost anything found in OU, except the Kyurems) and good defensive typing meant that it could safely sleep off the two turns, and just keep going and going-- setting up to destroy as a CM user, or just be a major pain with Roar.

In BW though, while Suicune's defenses were as top-class as ever, and Scald + CM seemed a lethal combo screwing special and physical attackers, Suicune's healing just wasn't fast enough to keep up.

So, what if Suicune's Rest handicap was cured by Hydration-- an ability all too fitting for a "water god" like Suicune.

Suicune
Hydration
@Leftovers
-Rest
-Calm Mind
-Scald
-Roar / Ice Beam

For the first time since ADV, Suicune would be able to drop Sleep Talk for that extra vital slot needed for Roar or an extra attack. Under Rain, Suicune's durability would be increased significantly-- finally allowing it truly abuse its CM + Scald combo to the fullest.

Whether or not this would bring Suicune back up to OU class seems questionable; a reliance on rain as well as the exact same typing as Politoed cause some team building problems Vaporeon is all too familiar with. A game flooded with Water-type immunities and Celebi isn't helpful either. Would Hydration be enough to make Suicune viable again?