Unpopular opinions

[Siggu]

Even as a kid who knew *nothing* about IV, EVs, Natures or anything that involved optimizing my mons', I just had a ton of fun with those new, gimmicky challenges.

Well, that's where I'm inclined to disagree.

That's the problem with the Battle Frontier - outside of the Tower and the rental facility, they are too gimmicky to be enjoyable.

I'm also on the crowd that the Delta Episode is better than the Battle Frontier. The only thing I miss from the latter in ORAS is the Battle Factory.

(I'm aware the Battle Arcade is quite non-gimmicky, but by the time I found out, I had stopped caring about the Frontier)

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

That's the problem with the Battle Frontier - outside of the Tower and the rental facility, they are too gimmicky to be enjoyable.

Now that's a new one.

At any rate, we can both agree that the Frontier had a little something for everyone. Even someone who didn't like the more gimmicky facilities like you, had the Factory and the Tower to enjoy.

That's good post-game content in my book.

 

[Suspicious Derivative]

Regarding the post-games of OR/AS vs Emerald, I think OR/AS is the clear winner here.

If it wasn't for the Battle Frontier, Emerald would only be marginally better than R/S which I think are among the 5 worst games in the series when it comes post-game. Even with the Frontier, Emerald is still far behind other games which great post-games such as B2/W2, Platinum, US/UM, OR/AS, B/W and D/P. Possibly even S/M and X/Y.

OR/AS on the other hand still has a lot of fun and enjoyable things to do even if you remove one or two big features like the Delta Episode and the Maison. I'd say OR/AS are the second best 3DS games in terms of post-game, beaten only by US/UM. While they could have been even better, I still think they were pretty good in the end and way better than both R/S and Emerald. IV breeding is also a lot easier in OR/AS compared to the utter pain it was in Emerald (yes, I know that RNG breeding exists but I never bothered to learn it in Emerald and I probably never will either). EV-training is also a lot easier and more convenient in OR/AS, which means that getting Pokémon ready for the Maison in OR/AS is way easier than getting them ready for the Frontier in Emerald. OR/AS also has way better gameplay, more options and they are more modernized on the whole. In my opinion, OR/AS are clearly superior in terms of post-game.

 

[Codraroll]

Emerald's postgame behind SM and XY? What have you been eating recently?

Even disregarding the awesome Frontier, there's still stuff like Secret Bases, Trainer Hill, Pokémon Contests, Battle Tents, or even freaking trainer rematches if you are so inclined. You can also count some one-off content such as hunting down a slew of legendary Pokémon or finding the true Champion, Steven. Mirage Island if you have the time too. Fill your Hoenn Pokédex, and you get a Johto starter. There is stuff to do, challenges to take on, and places to explore in Emerald's postgame. Neither SM or XY have anything of the sort. ORAS even misses half of it.

Sure, the later generations have way more quality-of-life features, but that's just to be expected when another decade of development has happened in the series. But for the amount of stuff to do, see, find, or play around with in the postgame, Emerald runs circles around ALL Pokémon games from Gen VI onwards. It's kinda sad when you think about it, since the series had only just found its footing back then. Yet now, many years later, the newer games don't even reach the knees of Emerald when it comes to long-term content.

 

[Yung Dramps]

Emerald's postgame behind SM and XY? What have you been eating recently?

Even disregarding the awesome Frontier, there's still stuff like Secret Bases, Trainer Hill, Pokémon Contests, Battle Tents, or even freaking trainer rematches if you are so inclined. You can also count some one-off content such as hunting down a slew of legendary Pokémon or finding the true Champion, Steven. Mirage Island if you have the time too. Fill your Hoenn Pokédex, and you get a Johto starter. There is stuff to do, challenges to take on, and places to explore in Emerald's postgame. Neither SM or XY have anything of the sort. ORAS even misses half of it.

Sure, the later generations have way more quality-of-life features, but that's just to be expected when another decade of development has happened in the series. But for the amount of stuff to do, see, find, or play around with in the postgame, Emerald runs circles around ALL Pokémon games from Gen VI onwards. It's kinda sad when you think about it, since the series had only just found its footing back then. Yet now, many years later, the newer games don't even reach the knees of Emerald when it comes to long-term content.

Oh boy, oh sweet baby Jesus there's a lot to unpack here.

-I already explained that Secret Bases and Contests don't count since they exist in both OG RS and ORAS (the latter even tremendously improves the Secret Base mechanic).

-Are you seriously praising Trainer Hill and Battle Tents, both of which are just Great Value versions of pre-existing battle facilities?

-"Fill your Hoenn Pokedex and you get a Johto starter" Ok... ORAS gives you a Johto starter for Delta Episode completion + Sinnoh and Unova starters for completing other tasks.

-If you're into legendary hunting, again, what does Emerald offer that ORAS doesn't with its slew of wormhole legends that cover pretty much everything from Gens 2, 4 and 5 + the pre-existing Hoenn legends and Deoxys?

-And who the fuck gives a shit about the Steven rematch in Emerald which is literally just his RS champion team right down to movesets + 20 levels when you not only have a rematch with him in ORAS that changes more of his team but also an even higher leveled secret Wally battle with absolute behemoths like Assault Vest Azumarill, Rocky Helmet Garchomp and Life Orb Gale Wings Talonflame???

-You praised OG Mirage Island. YOU PRAISED. MIRAGE. ISLAND. THE ABSURDLY RARE PLACE THAT ONLY HAS A LIECHI BERRY AND A BUNCH OF FUCKING WYNAUTS FOR THE ABSURD RNG YOU HAVE TO DEAL WITH TO GET THERE WHEN ORAS HAS A BUNCH OF THOSE THAT ARE EASIER TO GET TO AND HAVE MORE POKEMON AND ITEMS

In short, next time you go on your next tirade against le evil 3D games please make sure you know what the actual fuck you're talking about

 

[Merritt]

Oh boy, oh sweet baby Jesus there's a lot to unpack here.

-I already explained that Secret Bases and Contests don't count since they exist in both OG RS and ORAS (the latter even tremendously improves the Secret Base mechanic).

-Are you seriously praising Trainer Hill and Battle Tents, both of which are just Great Value versions of pre-existing battle facilities?

-"Fill your Hoenn Pokedex and you get a Johto starter" Ok... ORAS gives you a Johto starter for Delta Episode completion + Sinnoh and Unova starters for completing other tasks.

-If you're into legendary hunting, again, what does Emerald offer that ORAS doesn't with its slew of wormhole legends that cover pretty much everything from Gens 2, 4 and 5 + the pre-existing Hoenn legends and Deoxys?

-And who the fuck gives a shit about the Steven rematch in Emerald which is literally just his RS champion team right down to movesets + 20 levels when you not only have a rematch with him in ORAS that changes more of his team but also an even higher leveled secret Wally battle with absolute behemoths like Assault Vest Azumarill, Rocky Helmet Garchomp and Life Orb Gale Wings Talonflame???

-You praised OG Mirage Island. YOU PRAISED. MIRAGE. ISLAND. THE ABSURDLY RARE PLACE THAT ONLY HAS A LIECHI BERRY AND A BUNCH OF FUCKING WYNAUTS FOR THE ABSURD RNG YOU HAVE TO DEAL WITH TO GET THERE WHEN ORAS HAS A BUNCH OF THOSE THAT ARE EASIER TO GET TO AND HAVE MORE POKEMON AND ITEMS

In short, next time you go on your next tirade against le evil 3D games please make sure you know what the actual fuck you're talking about

Imagine ignoring literally the first line where he says "behind SM and XY" not "behind ORAS".

This post brought to you by the reading comprehension gang.

 

[Yung Dramps]

Imagine ignoring literally the first line where he says "behind SM and XY" not "behind ORAS".

This post brought to you by the reading comprehension gang.

ORAS even misses half of it.

Emerald runs circles around ALL Pokémon games from Gen VI onwards.

If Codraroll actually didn't meant to insinuate ORAS has a bad/vastly inferior postgame to Emerald he didn't make it clear enough

 

[Codraroll]

-I already explained that Secret Bases and Contests don't count since they exist in both OG RS and ORAS (the latter even tremendously improves the Secret Base mechanic).

They definitely count when comparing against XY and SM, which didn't have anything that even resembled it. Them being in RS is no good argument either; they still exist in Emerald and don't in the mentioned later games.

-Are you seriously praising Trainer Hill and Battle Tents, both of which are just Great Value versions of pre-existing battle facilities?

As stuff to do in addition to the Battle Frontier? Sure. It might not be very good content, I'll grant that, but it is extra content you can happily sink time into and win prizes for. Again, completely absent from later games.

-"Fill your Hoenn Pokedex and you get a Johto starter" Ok... ORAS gives you a Johto starter for Delta Episode completion + Sinnoh and Unova starters for completing other tasks.

It's an incentive to go out and explore the region and its Pokémon, at least. A little call back to the previous generations as a reward for perserverence. Granted, later games have the Shiny Charm too, so it's not a major point.

-If you're into legendary hunting, again, what does Emerald offer that ORAS doesn't with its slew of wormhole legends that cover pretty much everything from Gens 2, 4 and 5 + the pre-existing Hoenn legends and Deoxys?

Actual locations for catching them, I suppose? XY had nothing of the sort, SM let you meet its legendaries in tall grass, and USUM just plonks them all in samey wormhole locations behind one of the worst minigames the franchise has ever seen. It should also be noted that Gens 4 and 5 didn't even exist at the time of Emerald, so one can hardly blame it for missing those legendaries.

-And who the fuck gives a shit about the Steven rematch in Emerald which is literally just his RS champion team right down to movesets + 20 levels when you not only have a rematch with him in ORAS that changes more of his team but also an even higher leveled secret Wally battle with absolute behemoths like Assault Vest Azumarill, Rocky Helmet Garchomp and Life Orb Gale Wings Talonflame???

Sentences. Use them. Breathe. I like the fact that the Champion was hiding in the inner levels of a nondescript cave at the far end of the map, okay? It made for a region that still felt like it had secrets to uncover even after you had gone through it once. Steven wasn't the only trainer you could rematch either, but he was the most notable one.

-You praised OG Mirage Island. YOU PRAISED. MIRAGE. ISLAND. THE ABSURDLY RARE PLACE THAT ONLY HAS A LIECHI BERRY AND A BUNCH OF FUCKING WYNAUTS FOR THE ABSURD RNG YOU HAVE TO DEAL WITH TO GET THERE WHEN ORAS HAS A BUNCH OF THOSE THAT ARE EASIER TO GET TO AND HAVE MORE POKEMON AND ITEMS

Ooh, Caps Lock! Hallmark of the desperate there. And if you read my post again, you'll notice that "praise" is a bit of a strong word. I put it on a list of post-game features present in Emerald that weren't there to nearly the same degree in, as Merritt mentioned, XY and SM.

In short, next time you go on your next tirade against le evil 3D games please make sure you know what the actual fuck you're talking about

Oh, I do.

The keyword here is "scope". The designers of Emerald put a lot of things into the game. Things many players might not be able or bothered to experience, but it was there to find nonetheless. The game felt stuffed with things to do, on a level completely unseen until then. Remember that the games we'd had before Emerald were the Game Boy games, RS, and FRLG. There was a significant step up in terms of content when Emerald arrived, to a degree the next games couldn't quite follow up (DP, at the time, frankly felt overshadowed by its predecessor, but Platinum raised the bar back up again). Hoenn was a vast and vibrant region, with almost every town having something worth revisiting for. Every feature from RS were not only present, but felt upgraded and reinforced by new content (although I was a little bummed that all the Pokémon Contests were moved to Lilycove, as it gave less of a reason to travel the region). Emerald went above and beyond, is what I'm saying.

Recent games? I'm not seeing the same devotion. Side facilities à la Contests are almost completely gone. New areas to visit in the postgame? Hardly seen at all since BW2, certainly not to the same degree. The variety of facilities of the Frontier are just a distant memory. Despite 15 years having passed, the scope increase we saw with Emerald has not been retained. The scope is even decreasing between games now. There used to be this ambition that each game be bigger and better than the last, but now it feels like they're prodding around to see what they can cut from one game to the next. SwSh was smaller than SM, which again was smaller than XY, which didn't hold a candle to BW's amount of content. BW2 still stand as the high water mark of Pokémon games, and they came out eight years ago.

ORAS had most of what Emerald had. Most. The loss of the Frontier stung a lot, and the fact they didn't even bother to re-skin the Battle Maison felt like a cop-out. It upgraded some features from Emerald too, as you noted. But it also left out a fair bit. Many of the improvements from Emerald, such as for instance the new Pokémon encounters or the Gym Leader teams, were rolled back to what they were in RS. And ORAS didn't add much over what had been there in RS either. Sure, the Mirage Spots were a nice touch, but content-wise they felt about as barren as OG Mirage Island, bar the crazy RNG - the RNG was merely annoying this time. The graphics were nice and there were many good quality-of-life features added to ORAS, but it felt narrower in scope and ambition than Emerald. Emerald was clearly an attempt to make the most complete Pokémon game ever. ORAS was made to meet fan expectations of a Hoenn remake, with most features present, some features scrapped, and a few improvements although nothing mind-blowing (Dex Nav aside, of course. Dex Nav was awesome. It was also completely absent from the next few games).

ORAS still did far better than the games they succeeded and the generations it preceeded, though. The scope of SM and particularly SwSh is awfully narrow, with USUM still a fair way below ORAS. I suspect ORAS did as well as it did in the post-game department because the games it recreated had so much to do. Just by recreating most of their content, they were already at an ambition level far higher than the original games made at the time.

 

[Yung Dramps]

They definitely count when comparing against XY and SM, which didn't have anything that even resembled it. Them being in RS is no good argument either; they still exist in Emerald and don't in the mentioned later games.


As stuff to do in addition to the Battle Frontier? Sure. It might not be very good content, I'll grant that, but it is extra content you can happily sink time into and win prizes for. Again, completely absent from later games.


It's an incentive to go out and explore the region and its Pokémon, at least. A little call back to the previous generations as a reward for perserverence. Granted, later games have the Shiny Charm too, so it's not a major point.


Actual locations for catching them, I suppose? XY had nothing of the sort, SM let you meet its legendaries in tall grass, and USUM just plonks them all in samey wormhole locations behind one of the worst minigames the franchise has ever seen. It should also be noted that Gens 4 and 5 didn't even exist at the time of Emerald, so one can hardly blame it for missing those legendaries.


Sentences. Use them. Breathe. I like the fact that the Champion was hiding in the inner levels of a nondescript cave at the far end of the map, okay? It made for a region that still felt like it had secrets to uncover even after you had gone through it once. Steven wasn't the only trainer you could rematch either, but he was the most notable one.


Ooh, Caps Lock! Hallmark of the desperate there. And if you read my post again, you'll notice that "praise" is a bit of a strong word. I put it on a list of post-game features present in Emerald that weren't there to nearly the same degree in, as Merritt mentioned, XY and SM.


Oh, I do.

The keyword here is "scope". The designers of Emerald put a lot of things into the game. Things many players might not be able or bothered to experience, but it was there to find nonetheless. The game felt stuffed with things to do, on a level completely unseen until then. Remember that the games we'd had before Emerald were the Game Boy games, RSE, and FRLG. There was a significant step up in terms of content when Emerald arrived, to a degree the next games couldn't quite follow up (DP, at the time, frankly felt overshadowed by its predecessor, but Platinum raised the bar back up again). Hoenn was a vast and vibrant region, with almost every town having something worth revisiting for. Every feature from RS were not only present, but felt upgraded and reinforced by new content (although I was a little bummed that all the Pokémon Contests were moved to Lilycove, as it gave less of a reason to travel the region). Emerald went above and beyond, is what I'm saying.

Recent games? I'm not seeing the same devotion. Side facilities à la Contests are almost completely gone. New areas to visit in the postgame? Hardly seen at all since BW2, certainly not to the same degree. The variety of facilities of the Frontier are just a distant memory. Despite 15 years having passed, the scope increase we saw with Emerald has not been retained. The scope is even decreasing between games now. There used to be this ambition that each game be bigger and better than the last, but now it feels like they're prodding around to see what they can cut from one game to the next. SwSh was smaller than SM, which again was smaller than XY, which didn't hold a candle to BW's amount of content. BW2 still stand as the high water mark of Pokémon games, and they came out eight years ago.

ORAS had most of what Emerald had. Most. The loss of the Frontier stung a lot, and the fact they didn't even bother to re-skin the Battle Maison felt like a cop-out. It upgraded some features from Emerald too, as you noted. But it also left out a fair bit. Many of the improvements from Emerald, such as for instance the new Pokémon encounters or the Gym Leader teams, were rolled back to what they were in RS. And ORAS didn't add much over what had been there in RS either. Sure, the Mirage Spots were a nice touch, but content-wise they felt about as barren as OG Mirage Island, bar the crazy RNG - the RNG was merely annoying this time. The graphics were nice and there were many good quality-of-life features added to ORAS, but it felt narrower in scope and ambition than Emerald. Emerald was clearly an attempt to make the most complete Pokémon game ever. ORAS was made to meet fan expectations of a Hoenn remake, with most features present, some features scrapped, and a few improvements although nothing mind-blowing.

ORAS still did far better than the games they succeeded and the generations it preceeded, though. The scope of SM and particularly SwSh is awfully narrow, with USUM still a fair way below ORAS. I suspect ORAS did as well as it did in the post-game department because the games it recreated had so much to do. Just by recreating most of their content, they were already at an ambition level far higher than the original games made at the time.

Alrighty then, I see what you're getting at. Still disagree, but I see the case you are building and I generally think it makes sense.

 

[earl]

As stuff to do in addition to the Battle Frontier? Sure. It might not be very good content, I'll grant that, but it is extra content you can happily sink time into and win prizes for. Again, completely absent from later games.

Awful take. If the content isn't good, why not play a different game? Or are we all stockholm syndrome'd into playing any content that a pokemon game gives

regardless don't particularly agree/disagree with anything else said, I just find the pokemon fandom's frequent hyper-fixation on the quantity of postgame compared to any other qualities about it (I personally find most post game pokemon content to be pretty far removed from the main game's core loop of catch->train->evolve->win->repeat and therefore have little motivation to pursue it) to be somewhat detrimental to actually evaluating the quality of a game. Just because there's more stuff to do doesn't mean it's stuff worth doing

 

[DrPumpkinz]

Ooh, Caps Lock! Hallmark of the desperate there.

More like "commonly accepted internet shorthand for exasperation with a touch of comedy", because 1) this is text-based communication, and tone of voice is very hard to convey, 2) this isn't a super serious setting, and Dramps is a fun guy, so he'd want to make it a little hammy, and 3) you honestly did sound like a dumbass in your original post.

 

[Pikachu315111]

Hmm, you know what, how about we do an alternate take on all this:

If they didn't want to do the Emerald Battle Frontier, I wouldn't mind if they had just separated the facilities and made them their own side activity:

Battle Factory: FUN FACT: Since the Battle Frontier was a new major feature to the series, in order to ease players into these new ways of battling they placed three "Battle Tents" throughout Hoenn that acted as a mini-version of a Facility (they replaced the Contest Halls that wasn't the grand one in Lilycove City). One of these Battle Tents was for the Factory and it was placed in Slateport City, so in ORAS they could have placed the actual Battle Factory there too. With Slateport being a shipyard it wouldn't be too out of place, they could make it so that Noland is a ship engineer and he constructed the Battle Factory so him and the other dock workers had some place to go to cool off/burn off steam with some battles but without having to train up their own Pokemon.

Battle Arena: Another Battle Tent was for the Arena and it was in Fallarbor Town. It's as good as place as any. There's really no location that is heavily Japanese-themed where the Arena would fit so might as well put it in a location which otherwise doesn't have a major feature to make players want to come back to it.

Battle Dome: Place it in Lilycove City. It'll fit right in with the grand Pokemon Contest Hall. And just look at Tucker, are you telling me he doesn't compete in Pokemon Contest, if not a Top Coordinator (Lisia does make reference to a "trainer that looks like a star" as one of Wallace's strong friends)?

Battle Pike: Hey, instead of teasing us that the Game Corner is gone, maybe replace it's location in Mauville City with another family-friendly luck based feature!

Battle Palace: Final Facility that had a Battle Tent and it was place in Verdanturf Town, which I feel is appropriate as it does feel like the palace would fit in with a quiet forest-y place.

Battle Pyramid: Route 111 would make the most sense. Who needs Trainer Hill when in its place would be the Battle Pyramid! Route 111 is also where you find the Ruin Maniac Trainer Class which Brandon is based on.

Battle Maison Multi Battle: So, ever wondered why Anabel was called the Salon Maiden when she was head of the Battle Tower (well, in the English version, in Japan she was called the Tower Tycoon)? Well, that right there answers your question, they already used "Tycoon" for Greta (she was originally called the "Arena Captain") so needed a new title for Anabel. Now in the Battle Tower there was a room called the Battle Salon where you would go to team-up with another trainer to do Multi Battles. I guess to further advertise this mechanic they gave Anabel a title that pointed to this feature (even though I don't think you can challenge her in a Multi Battle).
Now with that all explained, let's jump to ORAS. ORAS doesn't have a Battle Tower, it has the Battle Maison and the Chatelaines. There's a Chatelaine for Single, Double, Triple, and Rotation Battles... but none specifically for Multi Battles. In Multi Battles it just selected two of the Chatelaines at random to battle you. You can probably see where I'm going for this. How about making Anabel a new Chatelaine for Multi battles where she teams up with one of the Chatelaines. It would have been a nice surprise.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

Hot take coming through!

Emerald's Battle Frontier dunks on the entirety of ORAS's post-game and walks over them afterward.

All this talk of "Oh, but if we don't count the Frontier..." is nonsense. Straight up. You can't just ignore one of the biggest, deepest, and best post-game activities in an argument. There's a reason most people put Emerald in their Top 5 Pokémon games instead of RS and ORAS.

The Delta Episode is nice and all, but that's just what it is. An episode. A story event. You will not spend hundreds of hours polishing your team, battling, and even exploring in the Delta Episode.
Not to say it's bad, it's actually nice that they added a story expansion to ORAS, but when you're done with it, what are you going to do? Go to the horribly misplaced random French facility? Be satisfied with just the E4 rematches instead of the multiple trainer rematches of Emerald? (I'll admit that said rematches ain't all that until you get to their top teams.)

Codra said it best when Emerald's post-game encourages exploration. Even in the Frontier, there's stuff to explore and a whole facility dedicated to it.

It's a complete wash.

This sizzling-hot take was brought to you by the non-mobile players gang. After all, not everyone likes to be ransacked by gacha games.

 

[Coronis]

Or are we all stockholm syndrome'd into playing any content that a pokemon game gives

I mean.... you got me.

All this talk of "Oh, but if we don't count the Frontier..." is nonsense.

Completely agree. “X is better than Y if you ignore this” can go on forever.

 

[Imperial Magala]

maybe replace it's location in Mauville City with another family-friendly luck based feature!

Hotter take than Lucy, Emerald needed more pokemon location changes. We lost the Makuhita trade, kept post 8th badge Bagon, and Beldum is still post-game when Steven wasn't even the Champion anymore.

 

[Rapti]

Despite 15 years having passed, the scope increase we saw with Emerald has not been retained. The scope is even decreasing between games now.

This cannot be emphasised enough, if we don't care about games getting better over time, we'd should be happy just playing Pong clones
and even if you were happy with just that you really shouldn't be with things regressing

 

[greentyphlosion]

-"Fill your Hoenn Pokedex and you get a Johto starter" Ok... ORAS gives you a Johto starter for Delta Episode completion + Sinnoh and Unova starters for completing other tasks.

Call me crazy, but I'd... rather do it the way Emerald did it.

Obviously the context is different now and with GTS trading very few Pokemon can truly be called rare, but in 2005 Johto starters (hell, most Johto Pokemon full-stop if you didn't have Colosseum) were incredibly rare and valuable. I know they're less elusive nowadays, but the fact that ORAS hands you multiple starter Pokemon for essentially just finishing the story is limp and incredibly unexciting.

I replayed Emerald a couple of years ago and challenged myself to complete the entire Hoenn Dex before I'd beaten the Elite 4 (trading in the mons which were impossible to obtain like Beldum and Groudon/Kyogre). And it was brutal. The grind was hellish. But it was a great challenge, and reminded me that fully completing the Pokedex actually probably is the best challenge the series has.

I hate when the games simply give you stuff for free. And it's particularly annoying when something that took actual effort in one generation is reduced to a freebie in the next. Like Latios and Latias. Bane of many players' lives in RSE. And then ORAS just cheerfully hands you one of them. When you've only got 5 badges. And it can Mega Evolve.

X and Y are even worse. They give you a Lucario with an optimal nature and a perfect speed IV before you've even got three badges. SMUSUM downgrades the Oval Charm from being a Pokedex completion award to being the reward for defeating one pretty lacklustre NPC (though I felt they still did have a good level of challenge, this one sticks out to me). At this rate I expect in a couple of generations you'll be able to get the Shiny Charm just for beating the Elite 4.

Part of why I've found the main series progressively less satisfying, and why I'm so into Pokemon Go of late, is that it takes actual effort and skill to get the good rewards. It took me weeks to complete the Mew, Celebi, Jirachi, and Meltan Special Research.

 

[Pikachu315111]

SMUSUM downgrades the Oval Charm from being a Pokedex completion award to being the reward for defeating one pretty lacklustre NPC (though I felt they still did have a good level of challenge, this one sticks out to me).

That was pretty much a necessary change. How it went is you got the Oval Charm for seeing every Pokemon in the Regional Dex and the Shiny Charm for registering every Pokemon in the National Dex. However, with them getting rid of the National Dex and increasing the size of the Regional Dex, not to mention they do try to make sure after playing through the game you do at least see every catchable Pokemon either from wild or Trainer battles, the "seeing every Pokemon in the regional dex" requirement felt unneeded, especially now that they'd have to make requiring the Shiny Charm be registering every Pokemon in the Regional Dex. So instead they just made the Oval Charm a reward for defeating Morimoto in his obligatory post game battle. While it may feel like a downgrade you still gotta wait till post game and battle a high level opponent to still get it so that's still something.

No, the charm you should be having a problem with is the Catching Charm. How do you get it? Just talk with the Game Director. That's it. Your challenge was just playing up to that point in the game. And your reward is making Critical Captures more common.

 

[Siggu]

Call me crazy, but I'd... rather do it the way Emerald did it.

Obviously the context is different now and with GTS trading very few Pokemon can truly be called rare, but in 2005 Johto starters (hell, most Johto Pokemon full-stop if you didn't have Colosseum) were incredibly rare and valuable. I know they're less elusive nowadays, but the fact that ORAS hands you multiple starter Pokemon for essentially just finishing the story is limp and incredibly unexciting.

I replayed Emerald a couple of years ago and challenged myself to complete the entire Hoenn Dex before I'd beaten the Elite 4 (trading in the mons which were impossible to obtain like Beldum and Groudon/Kyogre). And it was brutal. The grind was hellish. But it was a great challenge, and reminded me that fully completing the Pokedex actually probably is the best challenge the series has.

I hate when the games simply give you stuff for free. And it's particularly annoying when something that took actual effort in one generation is reduced to a freebie in the next. Like Latios and Latias. Bane of many players' lives in RSE. And then ORAS just cheerfully hands you one of them. When you've only got 5 badges. And it can Mega Evolve.

X and Y are even worse. They give you a Lucario with an optimal nature and a perfect speed IV before you've even got three badges. SMUSUM downgrades the Oval Charm from being a Pokedex completion award to being the reward for defeating one pretty lacklustre NPC (though I felt they still did have a good level of challenge, this one sticks out to me). At this rate I expect in a couple of generations you'll be able to get the Shiny Charm just for beating the Elite 4.

Part of why I've found the main series progressively less satisfying, and why I'm so into Pokemon Go of late, is that it takes actual effort and skill to get the good rewards. It took me weeks to complete the Mew, Celebi, Jirachi, and Meltan Special Research.

While I do agree Latios/Latias being given with practically no effort whatsoever (not even a boss battle?) in ORAS was going too far, I disagree with this.

Locking very simple rewards like Pokémon (even Mythicals) or items behind repetitive and grindy activities (like filling out the Pokédex) is a horrible idea. And not just in Pokémon; in any game, that should never be done. Unfortunately, the misconception that "having to spend more time to get it, makes the reward more satisfying" is a very common situation in videogames (the first thing that comes to my mind is World of Warcraft locking the Allied Race unlock quests behind Exalted reputation when they should be unlocked when you complete the related storyline).

With repetition and grinding comes boredom, and with boredom comes "I don't want this reward anymore"/"I'm wasting my time". For this reason, I don't have the Shiny Charm in any of my Pokémon savegames.

Games should reward planning, not the amount of time you spend in front of them. Give the player a task to complete, yes, but make it so that they can complete said task any time they can, and not make it a long and repetitive process that all it does is make it unrewarding.

tl;dr "Beat this character" is a lot better than "Fill this checklist"

 

[Worldie]

Locking very simple rewards like Pokémon (even Mythicals) or items behind repetitive and grindy activities (like filling out the Pokédex) is a horrible idea. And not just in Pokémon; in any game, that should never be done. Unfortunately, the misconception that "having to spend more time to get it, makes the reward more satisfying" is a very common situation in videogames (the first thing that comes to my mind is World of Warcraft locking the Allied Race unlock quests behind Exalted reputation when they should be unlocked when you complete the related storyline).

I more or less agree with your point but I'd put a significant distinction on the aim of those decisions.

World of Warcraft in this case is a MMO with a monthly sub: putting desiderable reward behind a long grind is done with the purpose that the player is forced to keep playing and thus keep spending money. Those rewards also tend to be "brag worthy", in order to have players show them to others so they induce other people to do the same grind.
(Now, this is not the place to discuss Activision's decisions regarding WoW, but any WoW player knows that anyone calling GameFreaks as "greedy" or "money hungry" has no clue what actual greedy companies do :P)

In the case of Pokemon (or, single players in general), generally rewards are hidden being grinds in order to give replayability or longevity.
However, the "grind" to get there has to be inherently fun or at very least satisfactory, and the reward needs to be actually useful or brag worthy, else the player will simply not do it.

A long grind that rewards something unique that *is not mandatory to obtain* (big emphasis here) can work out.

Items like shiny charm as reward for a grind (For example, currently OG Magearna as reward filling natdex on Home) is fine. It's not mandatory by any mean (you can get regular Magearna very easily if you own a gen 7 game, and aside from the look it's functionally identical to the OG one), it IS bragworthy, and the "grind" is even useful because you end up having a living dex available for potential future breeding purposes.

Hiding, say, a Pokemon (which would be required for pokedex completion, POTENTIALLY for PvP), behind a long and boring grind would be very bad design.

I think as far as Legendary catching goes, so far the best approach I've seen was actually (unironically) Let's Go: where you first have to beat a buffed up version of the Legendary after going through a labyrint / puzzle dungeon, and THEN get your shot at catching them.

I wish they would produce more of those "challenges" actually. They're not hard per se, but they are fun, and you actually get the satisfaction feeling once you win.

 

[greentyphlosion]

That was pretty much a necessary change. How it went is you got the Oval Charm for seeing every Pokemon in the Regional Dex and the Shiny Charm for registering every Pokemon in the National Dex. However, with them getting rid of the National Dex and increasing the size of the Regional Dex, not to mention they do try to make sure after playing through the game you do at least see every catchable Pokemon either from wild or Trainer battles, the "seeing every Pokemon in the regional dex" requirement felt unneeded, especially now that they'd have to make requiring the Shiny Charm be registering every Pokemon in the Regional Dex. So instead they just made the Oval Charm a reward for defeating Morimoto in his obligatory post game battle. While it may feel like a downgrade you still gotta wait till post game and battle a high level opponent to still get it so that's still something.

No, the charm you should be having a problem with is the Catching Charm. How do you get it? Just talk with the Game Director. That's it. Your challenge was just playing up to that point in the game. And your reward is making Critical Captures more common.

Ugh. You're right - wasn't thinking. USUM doesn't have the National Dex.

Still, I had the distinct feeling when I picked mine up that I hadn't done enough to earn it.

While I do agree Latios/Latias being given with practically no effort whatsoever (not even a boss battle?) in ORAS was going too far, I disagree with this.

Locking very simple rewards like Pokémon (even Mythicals) or items behind repetitive and grindy activities (like filling out the Pokédex) is a horrible idea. And not just in Pokémon; in any game, that should never be done. Unfortunately, the misconception that "having to spend more time to get it, makes the reward more satisfying" is a very common situation in videogames (the first thing that comes to my mind is World of Warcraft locking the Allied Race unlock quests behind Exalted reputation when they should be unlocked when you complete the related storyline).

With repetition and grinding comes boredom, and with boredom comes "I don't want this reward anymore"/"I'm wasting my time". For this reason, I don't have the Shiny Charm in any of my Pokémon savegames.

Games should reward planning, not the amount of time you spend in front of them. Give the player a task to complete, yes, but make it so that they can complete said task any time they can, and not make it a long and repetitive process that all it does is make it unrewarding.

tl;dr "Beat this character" is a lot better than "Fill this checklist"

I think where we disagree is that I don't consider the Pokedex a miserable or boring task. And I'm not equating time spent to skill (I could probably have completed the Special Research much quicker if I really pushed myself, and hell, you can complete the Pokedex in an afternoon if you have two game consoles and a link cable).

Your point about boredom and "I don't want this reward" is valid but it goes for anything. There are some in-game challenges I dislike enough to not bother with: Musicals in BW, Super Contests in DPP, Pokestar Studios in B2W2, Contest Spectaculars in ORAS. It depends on what you personally play the games for.

In the specific case of the Johto starters, it's a reward that helps you toward completing another task - you've completed the Hoenn Dex, so here's a valuable addition to the National Dex.

I'm absolutely not advocating for a return to the days when only those dedicated enough to travel or lucky enough to live in the right city could obtain the Auroraticket or the Member's Card, but the "connect to the Internet, download your Hoopa, collect from deliveryman, over-and-done-with-in-two-minutes" routine is unsatisfying for precisely the same reason. Give us an area with a puzzle we have to solve first. Or even just let us battle them; that's a challenge for many.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

I think as far as Legendary catching goes, so far the best approach I've seen was actually (unironically) Let's Go: where you first have to beat a buffed up version of the Legendary after going through a labyrint / puzzle dungeon, and THEN get your shot at catching them.

That's actually a really good idea. Can't wait to play Let's Go and face Misty's Scald Starmie and see how it works for myself.

Moltres notwithstanding, I always liked how in RBY you actually needed to go out of your way and explore these optional dungeons to find these rare, powerful mons.

In fact, the idea of making some mons behave like actual bosses is something that seems really interesting and an idea that Sword and Shield actually attempt to some extent. I really like the idea of battling a powered up mon to capture it.
It's kind of silly when it's something common like a Pidove, but a rare, G-Max Mon being something you need to actually defeat to capture is great and I'm glad that Let's Go entertains this idea.

 

[Suspicious Derivative]

Emerald's postgame behind SM and XY? What have you been eating recently?

Even disregarding the awesome Frontier, there's still stuff like Secret Bases, Trainer Hill, Pokémon Contests, Battle Tents, or even freaking trainer rematches if you are so inclined. You can also count some one-off content such as hunting down a slew of legendary Pokémon or finding the true Champion, Steven. Mirage Island if you have the time too. Fill your Hoenn Pokédex, and you get a Johto starter. There is stuff to do, challenges to take on, and places to explore in Emerald's postgame. Neither SM or XY have anything of the sort. ORAS even misses half of it.

Sure, the later generations have way more quality-of-life features, but that's just to be expected when another decade of development has happened in the series. But for the amount of stuff to do, see, find, or play around with in the postgame, Emerald runs circles around ALL Pokémon games from Gen VI onwards. It's kinda sad when you think about it, since the series had only just found its footing back then. Yet now, many years later, the newer games don't even reach the knees of Emerald when it comes to long-term content.

That's not a very polite way to start a discussion. But if you really want to know, I don't recall eating anything out of the ordinary recently, just the same food as usual.

I said ”possibly”, because I’m not really sure which game(s) I think has the better post-game. Emerald might have been better than the games before it, but I'd say it is not as great as the Sinnoh/Unova games, OR/AS or US/UM. X/Y and S/M were a step back from the greatness of the Sinnoh and Unova games, that's for sure. But I’d also say they are way ahead of Gen 1 & 2 as well as R/S, FR/LG, LGP/E, S/S... and possibly also Emerald. X/Y, S/M and Emerald are all on about the same level in terms of post-game and content if you ask me. Said level is pretty good but far from the best in the series. About average, I guess.

I wasn’t sure if I should reply to this since I mostly agree with what leonard said above about post-game, it feels rather pointless to have a discussion about it because it is very subjective in the end, something that this discussion has already confirmed. But I felt that I had to continue and reply here since this whole discussion is partly because of my post, so here we go!

First, regarding the things you listed. X/Y and S/M doesn’t really have any true equivalents to Secret Bases and Contests, that’s true. But since Secret bases were local only in Gen 3, they either required you to have friends who played the games or you to have multiple games and consoles of your own, or both. No matter which was the case, it also required you to have the ability to connect the games and consoles with a link cable so you could share the bases. X/Y and S/M might not have the Secret Bases or Contests, but there are some similar side-activities. The closest X/Y has are the Trainer PR Videos in (similar to the Secret Bases, a minigame without a clear goal) the minigames on the PGL (which are not available anymore) as well as maybe the Friend Safari? S/M has the Festival Plaza and the missions there, the Poké Finder as well as Poké Pelago. So while those are not on the same level, but they are at least more than nothing.

Trainer Hill always felt pointless to me, I don’t think I tried it in Emerald until after OR/AS were released as I never saw the point in trying it, the execution was mediocre and it was basically just a variation of the Trainer Tower in FR/LG which I never cared much for either. The Battle Tents only had a real purpose if you did them before beating the main game, said purpose was to make you prepared for the Frontier in the post-game. There was no reason to try them after beating the game when you had unlocked the actual Frontier. I remember that I tried them once for the first time a few years ago, since I hadn't tried them before. Afterwards, I immediately understood why I had never tried them earlier, there is no point in them when you have beaten the game and unlocked the actual Frontier. Equivalents to these places in X/Y and S/M would be their secondary Battle Facilties, the Institute in X/Y and the Royal Dome in S/M. Those are also more real facilities with actual challenges which I feel that Trainer Hill and the Battle Tents are mostly lacking. As for regular trainer rematches, I agree that Emerald had way better rematches and training spots than S/M, but X/Y outclasses Emerald in that regard.

Regarding the legendaries, Emerald has slightly more than X/Y but is on about the same level as S/M, or below if we include the UBs. Though I don’t think any of these games are on top level when it comes to the number of legendaries you can catch. As for Emerald having ”actual places” to catch them, sure, but X/Y and S/M do that too (aside from the UBs). Xerneas/Yveltal/Zygarde and Mewtwo have actual places, the same goes for the birds even if you hunt them down first. Apart from the UBs in S/M, the only other one found in grass is Necrozma, everything else has a specific location. I guess Type: Null and Zygarde are odd cases since they are gifts rather than encounters. While you could complain about OR/AS and US/UM lacking actual areas to catch the legends, I don’t mind. I think they were good enough. Especially OR/AS, they had actual locations with the Mirage Spots. US/UM could have done the whole minigame better but it still worked in the end.

The Steven rematch was ok, but I wish it hadn’t been a one-time only thing, I would have liked it better if you could rebattle him once a day or something. And what other trainer could you rematch aside from Steven? If we exclude the PokéNav trainers (regular trainers, Gym leaders and Elite Four), I don’t remember Emerald having any other ”special” rematches apart from Steven, tell me what I am missing here.

I never managed to find Mirage Island in R/S/E but it feels like a minor thing at best so it doesn’t amount to much. It was way too luck-based for my tastes. Regarding the Pokédex, I don’t see how Emerald is better than X/Y when the Kalos games both have a larger regional dex and the largest National Dex to date. Though I agree that Emerald is better than S/M since they don’t have the National Dex and have less Pokémon in total that ”count” for the Pokédex. As for the rewards, I think Emerald handled the Johto starter reward poorly. The games makes the same mistake as way too many other games in that it keeps starters ”exclusive” to the point that you can only pick one from a specific region and not all three. I really disliked how exclusive they made the Johto starters in Gen 3, I can't imagine how much of a pain it must have been to get all of them without Colosseum, or XD at the very least. I think S/M handled the starters better since you can get all Johto and Unova starters through Island Scan, as well as X/Y which lets you get all Kanto and Kalos starters though Friend Safari, you also get one extra Kalos starter from Shauna after beating the game. OR/AS mostly does the same mistake as Emerald but they do at least let you obtain one starter from three different regions. And as for rewards for completing the Pokédex, they don't need to be anything out of the ordinary for me. Just the feeling of accomplishment for completing the Dex has always been enough for me. Even so, something like a Diploma, Passport Stamp, or the Oval Charm is nice to get (I don't care much for the Shiny Charm since I don't hunt for shinies).

What places to explore does Emerald have? I don’t see any major ones. Mostly minor areas at best, not as great as the post-game areas in the Sinnoh/Unova games or FR/LG. Better than X/Y since they don’t exactly have a lot either, but not that much more than S/M, I’d say they are on about the same level. The only places I can think of are the Safari Zone extension, the Meteor Falls extension, the Battle Frontier and the caves where you catch Groudon/Kyogre. Tell me if I’m forgetting something but I can’t think of anything more than these.

As for challenges, the Battle Frontier can be quite hard for sure. Did Emerald have any other challenges? I can't think of any. But S/M and X/Y have several challenges too. Saying that "Neither SM or XY have anything of the sort" is a complete and utter lie. For instance, S/M has the Battle Tree. Have you ever tried it? That place is not only hard, it is downright devastating. I’d say it is one of the two hardest standard battle facilities from the modern generations, the other being the Subway. The Maison in X/Y is easier but it is not a complete cakewalk either since it offers a pretty good challenge too. I also think both of them are great improvements regarding the standard battle facility (which is probably not going to happen again in any future games from now on seeing how hard it got nerfed in S/S). There’s also the Institute in X/Y and the Battle Royal Dome in S/M which offers different challenges in their own way as well. X/Y and S/M might be lacking some things, but challenges are not among them.

X/Y and S/M also have a few other things to do in the post-game, mostly minor though. X/Y has the Mega Stone hunt, the Looker Missions. There's also things like the PSS and online, Pokémon Amie, Super Training and Character customization, but those aren't exactly "post-game" since they can be done at any time. S/M has the Zygarde Cell hunt, obtaining all Z-Crystals, the UB quest with Looker and Anabel, the Eevee Quest. There's also things like Island Scan, Pokémon Refresh and Character customization, but again, those are not really "post-game". There's possibly also other minor things I have missed. So I'd say S/M and X/Y have more post-game than you give them credit for.

Ultimately, X/Y and S/M have quite a few things to do in their post-games, admittedly not as much as other games but more than people in general give them credit for. I think they are on about the same level as Emerald, possible slightly above or below. As for OR/AS, they might not have kept everything from Emerald, but most of it doesn’t matter since apart from the Battle Frontier, everything were mostly minor things at best, and I think OR/AS has more than enough new stuff to make up for the things they didn’t include. I really don’t see how minor things matter that much. Battle Frontier maybe, but that's something I can live without. And the rest of the Emerald exclusive stuff are just minor things that make even less of a difference, I’d much rather take all the OR/AS exclusive stuff over it any day.

Also, I really don't see how Emerald and its post-game/content ”runs [in] circles” around all games from Gen 6 and forward. It is better than LGP/E and S/S, I'll agree with that. But I consider it about equal to S/M and X/Y, and worse than US/UM and OR/AS. If anything, those games are running in circles around Emerald since they have way more content than it.

However, I do agree that the games have generally been declining in post-game and content starting from Gen 6, and I don’t like that. But at the same time, I find it to be far from as bad as many other fans make it out to be. While I wish these recent games had even more to do like B/W and D/P for the first pairs or Platinum and B2/W2 for follow-up games, I still found myself satisfied with the content in them. X/Y and S/M might have less to do than D/P and B/W, but they still have more than R/B, G/S and R/S. OR/AS and US/UM might be behind Platinum and B2/W2, but they are better than Yellow, Crystal, Emerald, FR/LG and HG/SS. But the Switch games … I can’t really defend them in this regard. I have not played LGP/E but I get the impression that they don’t have a lot of content. S/S felt like another step down, this time compared to X/Y and S/M, there’s a few good reasons I haven’t played Sword for over three months. Which is a bit sad, now that I look back at it, but that's just the way it is. The DLC might make the game better but we’ll have to see about that, and it could also be argued that the DLC should have been a part of the base games to start with, but I’ll wait with saying anything about that until it has been released. The Switch games and the current state of the franchise is also why I have thought about quitting Pokémon, but right now I’m not sure. It depends on how the next games turn out (not the DLC), they will more or less decide how much time I’ll spend on Pokémon in the future. I had previously hoped that the games would eventually get better again, but as of now, I have stopped hoping for that.

Or as you put it in the botched predictions thread:

"Okay, the previous pair of games had no postgame to speak of, some highly questionable design decisions were made, and the games felt lacklustre and rushed compared to their predecessors, but these games will be better than ever, right?"

Which is a statement I agree with. As of S/S, I have given up that the next games should become something better.

Guess I should expand on my thoughts about this in general now given the opportunity since this will also give me a chance to say another thing I have wanted to say for a while now. From Gen 1 to Gen 5, I felt that the games were mostly getting better and better with each release. The only real exceptions were Yellow (worse than R/B but still fun) and HG/SS (worst games in the series). As for everything else, I thought they were better than or at least equally good to their predecessors. But from Gen 6, that changed. X/Y were worse than B/W and B2/W2 (but still better than the games from Gen 1-4). OR/AS were worse than X/Y. S/M were worse than OR/AS. US/UM are a bit of an exception as they are better than S/M, but worse than the Gen 5 and 6 games. I haven’t played LGP/E but I fail to see how they could be better than anything from Gen 5/6/7… or even 1/2/3/4 too for that matter. My impression of them is that they are worse than FR/LG, which is not good. I will assume that S/S are better than LGP/E at least, but they were worse than the Alola games and the Gen 5/6 games. So I think the quality of the games has been going downhill ever since Gen 6, which is sad to see. That said I still liked all of these games, but if this trend continues, I can’t see myself being a Pokémon fan forever.

I also feel like people are spending more time complaining about the things the games are lacking rather than playing the games and doing the things they actually have to do, but I guess that’s just the way the Pokémon fandom is. And I have been like this too. I used to complain about the Frontier being absent from OR/AS and it was the main reason I didn’t start playing OR/AS until long after their release, I didn’t get OR until September 2015 and then AS half a year later. It is fun to look back and that now and see how things have changed.

Regarding the Battle Frontier, I’m really unsure about how many people actually enjoyed all the facilites. While you could say that it had something for everyone, was there anyone who liked all the facilities? Personally, I liked the Tower, Dome and Pyramid the best. I thought the Arena was ok, the Pike and Palace worked but could have been even better, and I have a love-hate relation to the Factory. When I’m reading new posts at the Emerald Frontier thread here on Smogon, most of the discussions there seems to be about the Tower, which is the standard facility, so the interest in the other facilities seems to be pretty low. As a facility player myself, I honestly don’t miss the Frontier at all. Recent games having the standard facilty + 1-4 extras is enough to satisfy me. The exception being S/S and their nerfed Tower which I’m not happy about. I’m also curious about how many of those who complain about the Frontier being absent in OR/AS or other modern games actually battle in Battle Facilities to start with, if they ever tried the Frontier in Emerald, or if they would have tried the Frontier if it had made a reappearance. It would be interesting to make a survey about that and see the results, because the impression I get is that several of those who complain about the Frontier being missing aren't into Battle Facilities in general. But that is just my impression and I could be very wrong here.

I also wouldn’t say that OR/AS succeeded in post-game and content because of R/S and Emerald, if anything, they succeeded in post-game and content despite the previous Hoenn games. I think R/S are among the five worst games in the series in terms of content and post-game, and Emerald isn’t that good either (it is average at best). The reason I think OR/AS succeeded is mostly because of the new stuff they added, which made for a great post-game when they combined them with the few things R/S/E originally had.

Battle Maison Multi Battle: So, ever wondered why Anabel was called the Salon Maiden when she was head of the Battle Tower (well, in the English version, in Japan she was called the Tower Tycoon)? Well, that right there answers your question, they already used "Tycoon" for Greta (she was originally called the "Arena Captain") so needed a new title for Anabel. Now in the Battle Tower there was a room called the Battle Salon where you would go to team-up with another trainer to do Multi Battles. I guess to further advertise this mechanic they gave Anabel a title that pointed to this feature (even though I don't think you can challenge her in a Multi Battle).
Now with that all explained, let's jump to ORAS. ORAS doesn't have a Battle Tower, it has the Battle Maison and the Chatelaines. There's a Chatelaine for Single, Double, Triple, and Rotation Battles... but none specifically for Multi Battles. In Multi Battles it just selected two of the Chatelaines at random to battle you. You can probably see where I'm going for this. How about making Anabel a new Chatelaine for Multi battles where she teams up with one of the Chatelaines. It would have been a nice surprise.

Minor correction here, but it seems like they aren’t completely random. According to Bulbapedia, you get to face Evelyn paired with either Dana or Morgan in normal Multi, then Nita with either Dana or Morgan in Super Multi. I used to think it was completely set in stone which ones you got to face, but it turned out that I was wrong about that. As for Anabel having a role here, I guess it could work but since it seems that OR/AS take place before Emerald in terms of story (as far as it goes), I’m not sure if they could have included Anabel there for various reasons, she might not have been scouted yet or something.

Other than that, I like your idea about having all the Frontier facilities spread out across the region, but again, it is nothing I find necessary to make a good game as I still enjoyed OR/AS even without the Frontier.

All this talk of "Oh, but if we don't count the Frontier..." is nonsense. Straight up. You can't just ignore one of the biggest, deepest, and best post-game activities in an argument. There's a reason most people put Emerald in their Top 5 Pokémon games instead of RS and ORAS.

Sure, let’s stop ignoring the Frontier. But then we shouldn’t ignore a lot of the things OR/AS has to offer either.

The Delta Episode is nice and all, but that's just what it is. An episode. A story event. You will not spend hundreds of hours polishing your team, battling, and even exploring in the Delta Episode.
Not to say it's bad, it's actually nice that they added a story expansion to ORAS, but when you're done with it, what are you going to do? Go to the horribly misplaced random French facility? Be satisfied with just the E4 rematches instead of the multiple trainer rematches of Emerald? (I'll admit that said rematches ain't all that until you get to their top teams.)

I agree that the Delta Episode was nice, but it isn’t lasting content, that’s for sure. But it is at least something, I don't recall Emerald having any post-game story at all. And there’s plenty to do after it. I don’t know about you, but as a Facility player I really enjoyed playing through the Maison again, using some of the new Megas as well as some new and different strategies that I didn’t try in X/Y. Heck, I’d even say that it alone was more fun than the majority of the Emerald Frontier. I also didn’t find the Maison ”misplaced” at all, the games do a great explanation as for why it is there and they even changed the dialogue of the Chatelaines to match it.

E4 rematches are nice, but I usually don’t use them for training. Fortunately, OR/AS has regular PokéNav rematches as well. They are a great training spot, way ahead of how they were in Emerald. And there’s also Secret bases, which are a downright epic training spot if you use Blissey Bases. Which is easy since those are online-based and you can just scan the QR codes and then start racking up Exp. that way. Emerald doesn’t come close to this, and even if you somehow do Blissey bases or something similar, it will be a lot less convenient and take longer to set them up. I speak from experience as I did Gardevoir bases in Emerald. While they were worth it in the end, making them took a very long time. Without secret bases, the training spots in Emerald are average at best, not epic like in OR/AS.

There’s also a lot of other stuff than the Maison and rematches. There's the Contests, Secret Bases in general, catching a ton of legendaries, DexNav Pokémon, Mirage Spots and soaring, completing the Pokédex (721 in total as opposed to 386 in Emerald) and collecting Mega stones. There was also the Medals on the PGL (before it was taken down). Plus a bunch of other minor things. While a lot of these things are minor, so are pretty much everything in Emerald apart from the Frontier, so I don’t see how Emerald is superior here. I had lots of fun with the post-game in OR/AS, much more than Emerald, and I always felt like OR/AS had more to do than Emerald.

If liking OR/AS and other modern Pokémon games makes me a ”mobile player”, then sure. I have become more of a casual player starting from S/S because of various reasons, but I considered myself a hardcore player up to US/UM. I feel that the 3DS games offer a lot of fun challenges and interesting things to do if people were to actually look for these and play the games instead of complaining and saying things like: ”NO BATTLE FRONTIER WORST GAMES EVER!!!!!!”. But that's just the way we Pokémon fans are, I guess. Always whining and complaining about everything.

Next, another unpopular opinion of mine which should be obvious by now: I don’t think Emerald is that great in terms of post-game and content. While I like Emerald and I had tons of fun with it, I feel that when you compare it to the rest of the series, it isn’t all that great in this regard. I’d say it is better than R/B/Y, G/S/C, R/S, FR/LG, HG/SS, S/S and probably LGP/E, around the same level as S/M and X/Y, but it is definitely below B2/W2, Platinum, US/UM, OR/AS, B/W and D/P. It is pretty much average on the whole which is okay but I would definitely not put it in my top 5. But in the top 10 at least. I also feel that Emerald is a pretty overrated game these days, compared to OR/AS which are pretty much underrated in comparison.

I also said this earlier, but I guess I’ll say it again. Because of this whole discussion, I feel that post-game and content in Pokémon games is more subjective than objective. It feels like there are so many aspects and preferences when it comes to this subject, to the point that it gets harder and harder to say one game is objectively better than any other. Though there might be some exceptions. For instance, if I’d say R/B/Y has the worst post-game in the series, would anyone disagree with me? But others like OR/AS vs Emerald is harder, it is more subjective in the end. Don’t know if anyone agrees with me here, but this is how I feel.

 

[Ironmage]

I could definitely appreciate having a more meaningful dungeon for legendaries, but I'm not sold on having a pure fight before attempting to catch them.

In addition to the difficulty it might produce for soft-resetting, I actually think a higher difficulty in catching is a better place to build a 1 mon boss out of than throwing on stat boosts. Because status effects are balanced around a 6v6 or 4v4 scenario, it's pretty trivial to empty any one health bar. What makes catching distinct is that actually letting your opponent's hp reach 0 is a failure condition. Personally I find "you can absolutely use Destiny Bond here, but it's counterproductive to do so" a lot more palatable than "haha, no," so I think of it as better to have a format that encourages keeping the target standing while you work to reach a different victory condition. It means you don't have to do anything arbitrary to make a single mon capable of being challenging against attrition, while also giving them enough turns to make a dent in the player's team. Contrast UNecrozma, who has inflated stats so it has the potential to end the fight in 6 turns, or Raid bosses, who go out of their way to make hitting them repeatedly the only option.

As such, I would lean towards making the catching process against legendaries require more steps than just a dice roll, such as items that can boost catch rate and apply offensive debuffs, or something that can lock in the target's HP so you don't have to worry about healing or recoil. With more options availible to the player, you could then make it that just throwing a quick ball is not going to get you anywhere against tougher targets. The equipment doesn't even need to be restricted to legendary encounters, since it could also be used on normal mons difficult to capture (e.g. beldum)

 

[DrPumpkinz]

I could definitely appreciate having a more meaningful dungeon for legendaries, but I'm not sold on having a pure fight before attempting to catch them.

In addition to the difficulty it might produce for soft-resetting, I actually think a higher difficulty in catching is a better place to build a 1 mon boss out of than throwing on stat boosts. Because status effects are balanced around a 6v6 or 4v4 scenario, it's pretty trivial to empty any one health bar. What makes catching distinct is that actually letting your opponent's hp reach 0 is a failure condition. Personally I find "you can absolutely use Destiny Bond here, but it's counterproductive to do so" a lot more palatable than "haha, no," so I think of it as better to have a format that encourages keeping the target standing while you work to reach a different victory condition. It means you don't have to do anything arbitrary to make a single mon capable of being challenging against attrition, while also giving them enough turns to make a dent in the player's team. Contrast UNecrozma, who has inflated stats so it has the potential to end the fight in 6 turns, or Raid bosses, who go out of their way to make hitting them repeatedly the only option.

As such, I would lean towards making the catching process against legendaries require more steps than just a dice roll, such as items that can boost catch rate and apply offensive debuffs, or something that can lock in the target's HP so you don't have to worry about healing or recoil. With more options availible to the player, you could then make it that just throwing a quick ball is not going to get you anywhere against tougher targets. The equipment doesn't even need to be restricted to legendary encounters, since it could also be used on normal mons difficult to capture (e.g. beldum)

I was going to call you out and say "while it's interesting in theory to have to avoid KOing your opponent, it's not fun or hard to sit there and throw balls all day", but then I got to the second half of your post. Introducing fun ways to make keeping both you and a legendary alive would be sweet.