I've looked at which Pokémon in gens 7 and 8 have an exclusive move and/or ability and it's... a lot. I don't remember the numbers but it's easily over half for both generations (probably closer to 70-85%).
Definitely a trend I'm not a fan of.
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- Thread starter antemortem
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Definitely a trend I'm not a fan of.
Here's a full listing of ones who don't if you were curious. Taking full lines rather than individual Pokemon, not including any updated movepools or Pokemon from Legends Arceus. Not bothering with the Alolan and Galarian variants except where they've got a new evolution (short story on them is that 60% of the Alolans, 100% of the Galarians have a unique move/ability).
Pokemon without an exclusive move or ability: said:Nihilego
Buzzwole
Pheromosa
Xurkitree
Celesteela
Kartana (funnily was the only Pokemon with Cut access until Pokebank was updated for SM)
Guzzlord
Naganadel
Stakataka
Orbeetle (has an exclusive G-Max Move)
Thievul (only Pokemon capable of using Stakeout in Generation 8)
Dubwool
Centiskorch (has an exclusive G-Max Move)
Pincurchin
Indeedee
Copperajah (has an exclusive G-Max Move)
Dracozolt
Arctozolt
Dracovish
Arctovish
Pokemon who had an exclusive move or ability when originally introduced: said:Incineroar (Darkest Lariat until SWSH, Throat Chop until USM)
Gumshoos (Stakeout until SWSH)
Ribombee (Pollen Puff until SWSH)
Lurantis (Solar Blade until SWSH)
Shiinotic (Strength Sap until USM)
Bewear (Fluffy until SWSH)
Togedemaru (Zing Zap until SWSH)
Drampa (Berserk until SWSH)
Tapu Lele (Psychic Surge until SWSH, still shares Nature's Madness with other Tapu)
Tapu Koko (Electric Surge until SWSH, still shares Nature's Madness with other Tapu)
Tapu Bulu (Grassy Surge until SWSH, still shares Nature's Madness with other Tapu)
Tapu Fini (Misty Surge until SWSH, still shares Nature's Madness with other Tapu)
Charjabug (only user of Battery, Vikavolt itself has nothing special though)
Lycanroc (Accelerock not learned by Midnight form)
Golisopod (line has two exclusive abilities that do exactly the same thing, also had First Impression until USM)
Solgaleo and Lunala (still only Pokemon with access to Full Metal Body and Shadow Shield, also had Sunsteel Strike and Moongeist Beam until Necrozma gained access in USM)
Yamper (only user of Ball Fetch, Boltund has nothing)Total count: 20 lines never had an exclusive move or ability, 12 more had one on release. 17 of these 32 are "debatable" due to shared characteristics despite not being an evolutionary line (9 Ultra Beasts, 4 Galar Fossils, 4 Tapu), 3 have an exclusive G-Max move. This is out of the 108 lines in Gen 7-8, leaving us with near 70% on the mark having an exclusive move or ability, 81% if you discount the ones who had one when released, so your estimate of 70-85% is pretty much exact.
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Dude, they definitely HAS exclusive (and broken) moves
Dracozolt has access to Bolt Beak, a move it shares with Arctozolt, a Pokemon that it does not evolve from, into, or share a common pre-evolution with, so they're not the same evolutionary line.
Dracovish has access to Fishious Rend, a move it shares with Arctovish, a Pokemon that it does not evolve from, into, or share a common pre-evolution with, so they're not the same evolutionary line.
I did list them out specifically in the final count as one of the groups that I thought people would disagree with - feel free to consider your own percentage including or excluding them as you'd prefer. Fun fact, if you do count them as having exclusive moves and also exclude the ones with exclusive moves/abilities on release then you end up with almost exactly 85%, the upper limit of our clearly prescient friend CPU's prediction.
What counts as "signature" is definitely not a straightforward definition (IIRC Bulbapedia ignores Egg Moves for the sake of a move being "signature," so, for example, it counts Present as Delibird's signature move; an understandable conclusion despite it being available as an Egg Move for multiple lines since its addition in Gen 2), and grouping certain Pokémon together can also be seen as vague at times (I'd personally group the Zolts and Vishes together but I also get why you would choose to not do that; if you wanted to group the Ultra Beasts together for Beast Boost, that seems shakier).
I think, for me, relying on a new move or ability to "complete" a Pokémon's concept feels like they're trying to force a niche out of it, despite many of the lines already doing something new from their typing/stats/other moves. I guess it's hard to say how far ahead Game Freak looks when designing new moves (abilities to a lesser extent) and choosing which mons should get them, since there's a big trend of formerly signature aspects being distributed a generation (or more) down the line. If Game Freak wanted to address moveset bloat, they could start by not creating funny new moves for every line they design (further necessitating in-game menus to help remind people what they all do, though I think said menus are a good idea) instead of cutting established moves.
EDIT: fangames and more "focused" entries in the series, like LGPE and PLA, demonstrate that what moves Pokémon learn is a pretty arbitrary topic and depends on what moves are even available and how much the creators want to put into their games. Abilities less so, because they're meant to be a more "innate" aspect of a Pokémon, but Game Freak has started to change long-standing patterns with them, too.
All of my interest in Unwavering Emotions came after seeing the Generations special episode 15 in which its timing was used impeccably (rather than haphazardly across the BW1/2 games) and a beat was added to it after a single loop of the theme (so it didn't feel repetitive listening to it). Outside of this wonderfully-placed instance, I could not care less about it.
This is where I am getting at! A shame too, since it delve down into two separate problems from the same source:
- The move / ability bloat as you said before.
- As I said before, the new Pokémon falling flat despite the signature move or ability being promising.
Aside of the fact that not many were fond of the two forms’ design, Eiscue’s stat and movepool doesn’t really make a cut in future titles, and while it can be a threat in it’s own right in SwSh, it’s not something to be taken seriously, since it’s almost deadweight against Special Attackers and priority users. It‘s arguable that it would be worse without Ice Face, though it does reinforce how bland it is.
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Amongst Pika-Clones, Morpeko’s stats are comparable to Togedemaru, so it could be decent right? While it is decent enough to single-handedly take down Leon’s Charizard, it’s Ability, Hunger Switch, makes it inconsistent due to perpetually switching between Electric and Dark every turn without additional effect, making Aura Wheel rather inconvenient, even if powerful, to rely on. In other words, the potential were squandered so hard it loops back to being boring.
Kecleon’s Color Change is not a good example for bad signatures or awful execution, especially in competitive Gen 3. Only problem is high Attack instead of Special Attack to make use of it’s expensive special movepool.
Galarian Slowking is a fan favorite in Smogon singles competitive for multiple reasons. Eerie Spell is not one of them, at least not anymore, and Curious Medicine, even in VGC, felt too niche unless I am missing something. Eerie Spell’s effect to reduce the Power Points of the opponent’s latest move by 3 sounds potent against walls, but since the move itself only have 8 PPs for a move with niche effect and 80 BP, it’s not something Glowking can really rely upon.
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What do they have in common? Their unique or formerly unique move (or one of them in Necrozma’s and Eternatus’ case) requires the user to recharge, the reason why post-Gen 1 Hyper Beam and variants such as Hydro Cannon did not have serious use outside of 1v1 (as in one slot vs one slot). The only Pokémon that makes use of Hyper Beam since then is Adaptability Porygon-Z, but that’s because of how insanely powerful it is on non-resisting, non-immune target, especially after a Nasty Plot boost.
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Fun Fact: In Gen 7, the Slush Rush Ability was the only ability introduced that was not a Signature Abillity. ( Not counting Beast Boost since it is exclusive to UBs ) And in Gen 8, All the abillities introduced are signature abilities. I wonder if the designers wanted to give each Pokemon a competitive niche and the easiest way was do it was to give it an ability that no other Pokemon had probably so they don't have to give them an alternate form in the future. Corrision for example, will always give Salazzle a niche as a Toxic Spreader even in the lowest tiers, but if they gave it to Vileplume, Salazzle is now outclassed; which is probably why they have given old Pokémon new abilities.
Truth is, if Vileplume got Corrosion, Vileplume wouldn’t really outclass Salazzle so much as rather, they simply compete with their upsides and downsides. Salazzle is faster and can set up with Nasty Plot, whereas Vileplume, while able to now bypass the struggle against Steel-type, would rather utilize Chlorophyll and Weather Ball since it got a low Speed to deal with.
That’s at least understandable for Abilities when it comes to signature, but the execution isn’t consistent. If anything, it actually make some worse about it because without the gimmick, chances that no one would genuinely uses those even in the lowest tier.
And even then, a signature Ability does not guaranteed keeping the Pokémon from lingering in the ZU tier. Aside of the issues with Morpeko and Eiscue I mentioned earlier despite their unique Ability (or perhaps because of their unique Ability), there some more issues with signature abilities.
Power Spot is a potential for Doubles, but consider Stonjourner’s horrid Special Defense and 70-ish Speed (too slow yet too fast for Trick Room teams), and how weak Power Spot actually is in practice, leave very few spots for it in competitive team. It also arrived way too late even before it can be used in Galar’s Double-themed Dragon-type gym, either, so the potential is completely missed.
Cursola’s Perish Body sounds like something that could pressure a switch or even a malicious “taking you with me” if managing to somehow trap it… except it activate through the enemy’s contact. That is not a major problem, except the fact that Cursola’s physical bulk is very bad (60 HP / 50 Def), making not much better than Weak Armor for it.
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Ripen sounds very powerful, though Dragon / Grass is not something ideal to tank a hit, especially not when Ice remained a strong offensive typing. Don’t forget the whole Knock Off shenanigans - if they lose their Berry, the Ability become null.
Now, Ice Scales is a good concept, a Special counterpart to Fur Coat. It’s moreso Frosmoth itself that needs serious fixing. If you know the problem with Ice-type Pokémon in general, you’ll understand if you check out Frosmoth’s stat distribution.
Notice all are from Galar. It worked for very few like Corviknight’s Mirror Armor and (controversially) Cinderace’s Libero, but when Galar have about 40% of their Pokémon lingering in PU or ZU, there’s something really wrong.
To be fair, I counted with Dexsearch and out of the Pokemon allowed in SWSH, most gens have a similar proportion of fully evolved Pokemon that are in PU or ZU. I guess it does prove your point that churning out a bunch of signature moves/abilities doesn't really help with that in any way.
Totals are counted using
Gen 1: 28/54 = 51.9%
Gen 2: 16/35 = 45.7%
Gen 3: 23/43 = 53.5%
Gen 4: 20/41 = 48.8%
Gen 5: 33/68 = 48.5%
Gen 6: 9/29 = 31.0%
Gen 7: 25/66 = 37.9%
Gen 8: 32/65 = 49.2%
/ds8, gen<x>, FE and PU/ZU totals are counted using /ds8, gen<x>, FE, PU/ZUGen 1: 28/54 = 51.9%
Gen 2: 16/35 = 45.7%
Gen 3: 23/43 = 53.5%
Gen 4: 20/41 = 48.8%
Gen 5: 33/68 = 48.5%
Gen 6: 9/29 = 31.0%
Gen 7: 25/66 = 37.9%
Gen 8: 32/65 = 49.2%
There is a bit of a flaw in that it counts forms instead of species, some of which should be counted (such as regular forms vs regional forms) and some of which shouldn't (like certain cosmetic forms with little/no battle difference). This is noticeable in Gen 7, where it counts all the hat Pikachus and Meltan in the PU/ZU category. If you discount those, then Gen 7's number becomes 17/58 = 29.3%, which is the lower number (probably because a significant chunk is made of the Tapus and Ultra Beasts).
There's also some weirdness around Silvally forms not showing up in the count for
There's also some weirdness around Silvally forms not showing up in the count for
/ds8, gen7, FE even though they show up for /ds8, gen7, FE, PU if they're actually PU by usage (untiered Silvally forms don't show up at all for searches of the form /ds8, gen7, FE, <tier> unless you add another condition that excludes regular Silvally).Edit: Might be interesting to analyze the distribution across higher tiers. Possibly also interesting to exclude legendaries to avoid undue weight upon gens with a lot of them.
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I just wanna take a moment to defend Kecleon's design and concept, because it actually makes a lot of sense. Kecleon's concept was wonderful in theory. Its highest stat is a very strong 120 SpDef, which is relevant to Color Change because all of the special types in Gen III resisted themselves aside from Dragon-Type. Kecleon's entire job was to switch in on special attacking opponents to take a STAB attack and then resist it, and it had the bulk to do that on paper.
Color Change is one of the many ways to introduce Abilities back in Generation 3. However, what seemed to be an interesting Pokémon is something one could not be able to rely upon due to average stats but moreso Color Change being detrimental to it. The moment it gained access to Protean as it’s Hidden Ability, many won’t ever go back to Color Change. If Color Change simply make it so the user’s type depends on the first move (i.e. if it have Shadow Sneak for move slot 1, it will be Ghost), or even a type combination depending on move slot 1 + 2, it would certainly be more fun and experimental to use back in Gen 3.
Where they dropped the ball is making it a physical attacker. Giving it the traditionally expansive special movepool that most Normal-Type Pokémon get and swapping its offensive stats (60/90 phys/special) may have been a totally different story for Kecleon's competitive implications.
I mean also, maybe not. There were no Choice Specs in Gen III and by the time they were introduced in Gen IV the physical/special split happened, but... I just feel like Kecleon was a good concept with absolutely fine execution. It's not how I would have done it, but it's rather coherent. Notably, Kecleon was both fantastic in ADV NU and even has a SmogDex entry for ADV OU highlighting that it's potentially worth using on the right teams.
I just see a lot of people saying Kecleon is where the pointless signature aspects of Pokémon began, and I don't really believe in it. The fact that it got one of the best abilities in the game (Protean) later isn't a mark against its initial concept.
I doubt it. They don't design (most) pokemon for competitive usage, since they know very well (more than your average internettian) that it's impossible to make all pokemon good, and that isnt even their target anyway.
Signature abilities / moves are used to give "flavour" to pokemon. They get to do something unique (or at least, have unique skills) that helps picking one over the other in game. The fact that some of them also happen to be strong competitively is a side effect and not exactly the design target.
Most of the new pokemon that acquired competitive viability in gen 7 and 8 didn't get it due to their signature ability or skills. Some don't even run them at all (Incineroar, Dragapult, Galarian Slowking for example).
Yeah, now you said it, what I said about Kecleon isn’t exactly true. Though what about Castform’s Forecast?
But let it be known, novelty will eventually wear off or worse, overstays their welcome, and the problem is not exclusive to competitive either. Many causal fans are unlikely going to give another chance to the likes of Stonjourner, Bruxish, Eiscue, etc. if their potentials or utility are too niche or non-existent. Smeargle’s signatuee move, Sketch, allows it to have near-infinite learmset which is really helpful for breeding regarding Field Egg Group Pokémon, as well as a fun load of in-game utility, but it several others aren’t so lucky.
Oh definitely, but I'm afraid that's just a problem of Pokemon in general (the issue of trying to make more "unique" creatures when there's already basically 1000 of them), and honestly not even Dexit is a solution for it.
Honestly as long as newer Pokémon aren’t atrocious gimmicks or carbon-body to what came before, “uniqueness” about Pokémon become less and less of my worries. It’s the increasing amount of outright bad in-game Pokémon per new traditional game despite a decreased amount of wholly new Pokémon that starts to worry me.
Out for a positive note: Alola’s low number of new Pokémon, counterbalanced with the introduction of the highly loved regional variants starting with Alolan forms, did make up for actual quality despite availability and stat distribution issues, unlike Kalos’ new mons which got vastly overshadowed in general and Galar which is by far the biggest bag.
For exemple, the number of single-staged Pokémon is very high, comparable to Gen 1’s amount of single-stages back then despite the low number, might be very worrying by itself. But fortunately, most of them managed to be memorable or very useful in-game. Fan favortite Mimikyu is an obvious example, but even the likes of Togedemaru, Passimian, Oranguru, Oricorio (a beast in USUM thanks to early Flyingnium-Z!) and Wishiwashi have their great uses in-game. Only Turtonator, Bruxish and, due to the Ability’s impractibility arguably, Minior were barely useful in comparison to competitions in Alola.
Many of the standard Alola Pokémon managed to stand out thanks to their exotic designs and positively eccentric origins. While not all of the signature moves and Abilities were successful on their original user, they don’t really need them to stand on their own, although it does proved detrimental in Silvally’s case for RKS System.
Alola also did a better job at showcasing their new Pokémon in comparison to Kalos and Galar. Most important trainers have an Alola Pokémon or Alolan form as their ace, and all Totem Pokémon are the Gen 7 Pokémon as well.
Kalos was understandable for some old Pokémon as Ace due to Mega Evolutions often an improvement over the original, but the fact that some Pokémon gets it despite not really needed an improvement and ended up broken did hurted. G-Max is arguably far worse due to unnatural selections (Why most returning Pokémon that got G-Max are Kanto-origin Pokémon?), making some Gym Leaders’ ace feels abritrary at best. That‘s another issue I’ll talk in another post though.
Alola overall introduced fewer duds in comparison to the regions introduced before and after ratio-wise, and feels like a step in the right direction before Galar’s new Pokémon proved to be among the biggest mixed bags yet, even today.
Out for a positive note: Alola’s low number of new Pokémon, counterbalanced with the introduction of the highly loved regional variants starting with Alolan forms, did make up for actual quality despite availability and stat distribution issues, unlike Kalos’ new mons which got vastly overshadowed in general and Galar which is by far the biggest bag.
For exemple, the number of single-staged Pokémon is very high, comparable to Gen 1’s amount of single-stages back then despite the low number, might be very worrying by itself. But fortunately, most of them managed to be memorable or very useful in-game. Fan favortite Mimikyu is an obvious example, but even the likes of Togedemaru, Passimian, Oranguru, Oricorio (a beast in USUM thanks to early Flyingnium-Z!) and Wishiwashi have their great uses in-game. Only Turtonator, Bruxish and, due to the Ability’s impractibility arguably, Minior were barely useful in comparison to competitions in Alola.
Many of the standard Alola Pokémon managed to stand out thanks to their exotic designs and positively eccentric origins. While not all of the signature moves and Abilities were successful on their original user, they don’t really need them to stand on their own, although it does proved detrimental in Silvally’s case for RKS System.
Alola also did a better job at showcasing their new Pokémon in comparison to Kalos and Galar. Most important trainers have an Alola Pokémon or Alolan form as their ace, and all Totem Pokémon are the Gen 7 Pokémon as well.
Kalos was understandable for some old Pokémon as Ace due to Mega Evolutions often an improvement over the original, but the fact that some Pokémon gets it despite not really needed an improvement and ended up broken did hurted. G-Max is arguably far worse due to unnatural selections (Why most returning Pokémon that got G-Max are Kanto-origin Pokémon?), making some Gym Leaders’ ace feels abritrary at best. That‘s another issue I’ll talk in another post though.
Alola overall introduced fewer duds in comparison to the regions introduced before and after ratio-wise, and feels like a step in the right direction before Galar’s new Pokémon proved to be among the biggest mixed bags yet, even today.
This is an idea I've been thinking of for a good while now. I would've posted about it months ago if it weren't for me getting side-tracked by other things and not really being able to find a good thread for it. In the end I'll post it here under this potential unpopular opinion header:
Mainline Pokemon, and by extension every single monster catcher franchise (Digimon, Dragon Quest Monsters, Monster Hunter Stories, etc.) is at an innate storytelling disadvantage compared to most other subgenres and mediums.
Now, why is this? Because simply put, the characters in Pokemon, no matter the quality of their writing, are not the endstate. I think this felt the hardest by villains especially.
This is the Egg Dragoon fight from Sonic Unleashed. It is one of Dr. Eggman's most badass moments in the franchise. As the fight continues you witness him getting more and more manic, commanding his latest and most potent combat machine to fire missiles and destroy Sonic at all costs while both combatants are hurtling towards the Earth's core.
You know why characters like Giovanni, Cyrus, Lysandre and Ghetsis have never had and can't have moments this raw? Because they are not really the focus. By the very nature of Pokemon, they are just backseats to their selection of creatures. And because of the themes of this franchise in regards to its creatures, the Pokemon can't be treated as mere extensions of them like a force user's lightsaber or a mad doctor's machinations. They are characters in their own right, characters who split away the focus from their wielders.
Just go to any comments section on a final boss music video and really pay attention to how the iconic human fights in this series are talked about. It's never "Cynthia beat my ass as a kid", it's always "Cynthia's Garchomp beat my ass as a kid". With a few exceptions like Lillie standing up to Lusamine you don't got huge human character-centered setpieces: Think Senator Armstrong tanking Raiden's barrage of punches with 0 effort, or the disorienting and chaotic antics of Dark Samus. Time and time again, it always comes down to "Hey, <Pokemon>, do the thing for me!"
I wouldn't be surprised if this is one of the motivations for the recent move to big asymmetric Pokemon boss fights. Totems, Nobles, Ultra Necrozma, Palkia and Dialga's Origin forms, they're all undiluted, untethered encounters that showcase personality through their battles like normal fights and are all the more memorable as a result. And hm, how interesting, what's one of the most acclaimed bits of SWSH storytelling? Oh yeah! The DLC side-story where a Pokemon goes through an arc! Ooooh on that note, how fascinating is it that in general the games most praised as the pinnacles of Pokemon storytelling are the Mystery Dungeon titles, which cut out the monster catcher problem entirely by having the things the series is named after be the protagonists, antagonists and everything in-between?
Now, this isn't to say good stories are impossible in this framework. They just gotta consider this issue and work around it. Ingo in PLA is a highlight because yeah you fight him, but you also spend time just hanging out and getting to know him. In this specific instance, in fact, his competency at Pokemon battling is in itself a character statement!
Mainline Pokemon, and by extension every single monster catcher franchise (Digimon, Dragon Quest Monsters, Monster Hunter Stories, etc.) is at an innate storytelling disadvantage compared to most other subgenres and mediums.
Now, why is this? Because simply put, the characters in Pokemon, no matter the quality of their writing, are not the endstate. I think this felt the hardest by villains especially.
You know why characters like Giovanni, Cyrus, Lysandre and Ghetsis have never had and can't have moments this raw? Because they are not really the focus. By the very nature of Pokemon, they are just backseats to their selection of creatures. And because of the themes of this franchise in regards to its creatures, the Pokemon can't be treated as mere extensions of them like a force user's lightsaber or a mad doctor's machinations. They are characters in their own right, characters who split away the focus from their wielders.
Just go to any comments section on a final boss music video and really pay attention to how the iconic human fights in this series are talked about. It's never "Cynthia beat my ass as a kid", it's always "Cynthia's Garchomp beat my ass as a kid". With a few exceptions like Lillie standing up to Lusamine you don't got huge human character-centered setpieces: Think Senator Armstrong tanking Raiden's barrage of punches with 0 effort, or the disorienting and chaotic antics of Dark Samus. Time and time again, it always comes down to "Hey, <Pokemon>, do the thing for me!"
I wouldn't be surprised if this is one of the motivations for the recent move to big asymmetric Pokemon boss fights. Totems, Nobles, Ultra Necrozma, Palkia and Dialga's Origin forms, they're all undiluted, untethered encounters that showcase personality through their battles like normal fights and are all the more memorable as a result. And hm, how interesting, what's one of the most acclaimed bits of SWSH storytelling? Oh yeah! The DLC side-story where a Pokemon goes through an arc! Ooooh on that note, how fascinating is it that in general the games most praised as the pinnacles of Pokemon storytelling are the Mystery Dungeon titles, which cut out the monster catcher problem entirely by having the things the series is named after be the protagonists, antagonists and everything in-between?
Now, this isn't to say good stories are impossible in this framework. They just gotta consider this issue and work around it. Ingo in PLA is a highlight because yeah you fight him, but you also spend time just hanging out and getting to know him. In this specific instance, in fact, his competency at Pokemon battling is in itself a character statement!
I think that pokemon is capable of setting up a boss fight in such a way that it informs an NPC's character, but mostly doesn't do a good job of showing that potential. I think of teambuilding as partly a creative exercise, and as such a character's team can provide information about their personality in the same way as e.g. their music can. The main examples I can think of this being used well is in gen 5: N doesn't believe in keeping pokemon, so his teams are made up of mons from the area he's currently in. Meanwhile, Ghetsis' ace goes from having coverage against N's entire team in BW1 to running max power Frustration on a special attacker in B2W2, which I feel does a pretty good job of showing his descent from cunning to madness. Unfortunately, for the most part, we don't really get NPC teams that go beyond favouring a specific type, and the difficulty isn't always at the point where the NPC gets a chance to show what their team is really like.
I actually think the asymmetric fights are a step back when it comes to that aspect. There's inherently less to work with with one mon compared to six, and they feel a lot more reliant on inflated stats than actual thought when it comes to difficulty.
Yeah I get that, but idk even in the base case scenarios it just doesn't feel the same and doesn't shake off the underlying problem of "the human has minimal agency other than giving commands"
Perhaps Pokémon cannot convey amazing bosses because of the genre it's part in.
But I personally don't mind if that's the case. I'd actually prefer a Pokémon game with no proper antagonist.
Like Sword and Shield should have been if they didn't hurriedly squish the Darkest Day plot before the battle with Leon. Pokémon should be about your journey to get to the top of the league, everything else is secondary.
But I personally don't mind if that's the case. I'd actually prefer a Pokémon game with no proper antagonist.
Like Sword and Shield should have been if they didn't hurriedly squish the Darkest Day plot before the battle with Leon. Pokémon should be about your journey to get to the top of the league, everything else is secondary.
Honestly the use of mechas could've helped Pokemon for boss fights (also nice to see Egg Dragoon here)
Imagine fighting a manmade mecha with your Pokemon. A mecha with a higher amount of HP and moves (le gasp, not just 4) vs a double or triple battle set from you
XD will forever piss me off in potentially having a Robo Groudon fight, but then immediately just setting it as the trainer instead of the boss
Ironically....
Team Rocket in the anime has shown a lot of unique concepts with it, even if for laughs
Imagine fighting a manmade mecha with your Pokemon. A mecha with a higher amount of HP and moves (le gasp, not just 4) vs a double or triple battle set from you
XD will forever piss me off in potentially having a Robo Groudon fight, but then immediately just setting it as the trainer instead of the boss
Ironically....
Team Rocket in the anime has shown a lot of unique concepts with it, even if for laughs
I mean that is very much the joke in that case, but I agree with the rest.
I do want to rekindle the discussion of Gen 5 being overrated. The last time I posted about this I didn't bring up either of these points with respect to BW or B2W2.
1. BW - For a story driven game, my biggest problem with BW is that it basically fumbles the ball on the other team's goal line. Right after you finish defeating N in an epic, legendary battle for the fate of the universe...Ghetsis pulls a bullshit "it was me all along" move that completely undercuts N's motives. It seriously guts N's character like a pig. Instead of keeping him a cool, edgy-but-not-too-edgy, antihero, we get a sad, puppy dog story about how N was manipulated the whole time and was never really acting out of free will. I don't understand how a game where story is of paramount importance, can fuck up the end so badly and still be regarded with the likes of Platinum and Emerald.
2. B2W2 - Look I know Pokémon isn't known for its stories and (rightfully) focuses more on gameplay. But holy fuck. B2W2's story is honestly so bad it just takes it out of contention for the GOAT title of the series on account of that alone, despite its other bells and whistles. There's a great quote from this Reddit post that summarizes my feelings about B2W2's plot almost exactly:
"Several grunts of Team Plasma, call N a traitor, and want to take revenge on him. Some of them, want to liberate pokemon. But Zinzolin wants to live in a world without pokeballs. Colress wants to draw out the inherent power of pokemon. Ghetsis wants to rule over Unova. I have no clue what neo-Team Plasma really wants! Each of their members seem to be wanting different things! The only thing they have in common, is that they want to freeze Unova in ice!"
It's just hard for me to make sense of B2W2's plot and when I hear people talk about B2W2's plot still being great, even if not reaching the heights of BW, I can't understand it.
Anyway that's surely an unpopular opinion(s) for this thread. Hopefully that'll stir the pot a bit.
1. BW - For a story driven game, my biggest problem with BW is that it basically fumbles the ball on the other team's goal line. Right after you finish defeating N in an epic, legendary battle for the fate of the universe...Ghetsis pulls a bullshit "it was me all along" move that completely undercuts N's motives. It seriously guts N's character like a pig. Instead of keeping him a cool, edgy-but-not-too-edgy, antihero, we get a sad, puppy dog story about how N was manipulated the whole time and was never really acting out of free will. I don't understand how a game where story is of paramount importance, can fuck up the end so badly and still be regarded with the likes of Platinum and Emerald.
2. B2W2 - Look I know Pokémon isn't known for its stories and (rightfully) focuses more on gameplay. But holy fuck. B2W2's story is honestly so bad it just takes it out of contention for the GOAT title of the series on account of that alone, despite its other bells and whistles. There's a great quote from this Reddit post that summarizes my feelings about B2W2's plot almost exactly:
"Several grunts of Team Plasma, call N a traitor, and want to take revenge on him. Some of them, want to liberate pokemon. But Zinzolin wants to live in a world without pokeballs. Colress wants to draw out the inherent power of pokemon. Ghetsis wants to rule over Unova. I have no clue what neo-Team Plasma really wants! Each of their members seem to be wanting different things! The only thing they have in common, is that they want to freeze Unova in ice!"
It's just hard for me to make sense of B2W2's plot and when I hear people talk about B2W2's plot still being great, even if not reaching the heights of BW, I can't understand it.
Anyway that's surely an unpopular opinion(s) for this thread. Hopefully that'll stir the pot a bit.
I haven't played Gen 5 so my opinion of the story doesn't hold much merit, but whenever people praise its story, I hear the things they describe and think "this story and these characters sound like they're from a melodramatic fanfic written by an edgy highschooler who urges people to take their writing seriously because 'it's so deep you guys' or whatever."
That's not really a judgement on the story itself (again, never played it) but it is a judgement on how people who like Gen 5 describe Gen 5.
That's not really a judgement on the story itself (again, never played it) but it is a judgement on how people who like Gen 5 describe Gen 5.
As a Gen 5 fanboy I can totally agree BW2’s plot is terrible.
There’s so much going on in that story and none of it is given the proper time to function. I actually like Hugh more than most but I know the issues people have with him so I won’t get into it.
BW1’s plot, I personally don’t mind how it fumbles some at the end, because of two things: the atmosphere and it took a huge risk. The music is fantastic, some of the best final battle themes in the series. Even to this day, we haven’t had unique final battles against the evil team be the climax of the story unless you count Legends: Arceus but that’s kind of its own category and even then didn’t get the proper buildup (though it competes with BW1 for my favorite climax in spite of this). Not spoiling anything beyond that.
In a series that until recently loved to play it safe, making the climax in this big new non Pokémon League location was basically the Pokémon equivalent of removing the crystals in the Final Fantasy games. It’s a huge deal.
Even as a huge Gen 5 fanboy, I think it’s honestly a product of circumstance thanks to the BW1 list. It still has tons of issues like the EXP system and late evos being totally valid points. I don’t even like or think about BW2 that much honestly. If someone asked me to choose either BW1 or BW2 for your Pokémon experience I’d say BW1 without even thinking about it because the story isn’t outright stupid. Say what you will about BW1’s climax issues but it for the most part didn’t try to give itself pretentious importance to in reality Team Rocket tier villains.
There’s so much going on in that story and none of it is given the proper time to function. I actually like Hugh more than most but I know the issues people have with him so I won’t get into it.
BW1’s plot, I personally don’t mind how it fumbles some at the end, because of two things: the atmosphere and it took a huge risk. The music is fantastic, some of the best final battle themes in the series. Even to this day, we haven’t had unique final battles against the evil team be the climax of the story unless you count Legends: Arceus but that’s kind of its own category and even then didn’t get the proper buildup (though it competes with BW1 for my favorite climax in spite of this). Not spoiling anything beyond that.
In a series that until recently loved to play it safe, making the climax in this big new non Pokémon League location was basically the Pokémon equivalent of removing the crystals in the Final Fantasy games. It’s a huge deal.
Even as a huge Gen 5 fanboy, I think it’s honestly a product of circumstance thanks to the BW1 list. It still has tons of issues like the EXP system and late evos being totally valid points. I don’t even like or think about BW2 that much honestly. If someone asked me to choose either BW1 or BW2 for your Pokémon experience I’d say BW1 without even thinking about it because the story isn’t outright stupid. Say what you will about BW1’s climax issues but it for the most part didn’t try to give itself pretentious importance to in reality Team Rocket tier villains.