Resource USUM OU ULTRA Viability Ranking Thread

[Guadenara27]

I have to say Im still a little bit confused why you are talking about Hoppa U if you want to rank us Hoopa C. You say its typing is way better, or at least better, but I think Dark is better than Ghost because you are not thaaaat vulnerable to pursuit, athought that might be a deadweight argument because of this interesting low physical bulk.
You are saying that Hoppa C can life an Shadow Ball from full if its AV, thats nice but shows that it is not a good check to Alakazam, because what I've seen Alakazam more often than not uses Shadow Ball for all this psychics, so you can't check it because you are going to have some prior dmg on Hoopa, SR or something else. Also as your are using this teams with Mandi is a point, because these are VERY specific because Mandi is by no means a OU Pokemon.
And if your opponent can't understand your thoughts, why this mon should be ranked this high, it is your problem because it shows you that you haven't convinced him (and me too btw). You are just showing this weird attitude which isn't helpful at all.
You stated out how many sets Hoopa C can put to work, but why is he better in any of this sets than Hoppa U, which has more power and speed and and imo better typing. And why did you nominate it to go instead into B-, how about C-? Because B- is so not what it would deserve, yeah that is my opinion.
And could you try to point out, what this Giratina thing should mean? We all know that if you use a mon of Ubers the whole team is only valid in Ubers, but ???
Lastly, if you say Hoopa C can work on this basics teams your are talking so negative about, some good replays that show us this would be like very very very helpful for your case.

If Hoopa C gets ranked in C- okay, but till now im not convinced it deserves a higher rank (or a rank at all). Its a worse version of Hoopa U.

 

[baddjordan]

Reuiniclus A- ---> B

Not what it was a month ago, Hydreigon and Hoopa-U are on the rise. Weavile and Mega Sableye are getting rise nominations. Blace is almost a staple on HO. Ash-Gren and Mega-zam are still everywhere. Bulky Volc is starting to catch on. Glare spam has been nasty the past month or two which Reuin doesn't deal with. Just feels too difficult to pull of a sweep. Does check Mega Medi but we're seeing less of it and seeing more of Mawile as the mega breaker.

 

[Thunder Pwoell]

I have to say Im still a little bit confused why you are talking about Hoppa U if you want to rank us Hoopa C. You say its typing is way better, or at least better, but I think Dark is better than Ghost because you are not thaaaat vulnerable to pursuit, athought that might be a deadweight argument because of this interesting low physical bulk.
You are saying that Hoppa C can life an Shadow Ball from full if its AV, thats nice but shows that it is not a good check to Alakazam, because what I've seen Alakazam more often than not uses Shadow Ball for all this psychics, so you can't check it because you are going to have some prior dmg on Hoopa, SR or something else. Also as your are using this teams with Mandi is a point, because these are VERY specific because Mandi is by no means a OU Pokemon.
And if your opponent can't understand your thoughts, why this mon should be ranked this high, it is your problem because it shows you that you haven't convinced him (and me too btw). You are just showing this weird attitude which isn't helpful at all.
You stated out how many sets Hoopa C can put to work, but why is he better in any of this sets than Hoppa U, which has more power and speed and and imo better typing. And why did you nominate it to go instead into B-, how about C-? Because B- is so not what it would deserve, yeah that is my opinion.
And could you try to point out, what this Giratina thing should mean? We all know that if you use a mon of Ubers the whole team is only valid in Ubers, but ???
Lastly, if you say Hoopa C can work on this basics teams your are talking so negative about, some good replays that show us this would be like very very very helpful for your case.

If Hoopa C gets ranked in C- okay, but till now im not convinced it deserves a higher rank (or a rank at all). Its a worse version of Hoopa U.

Did you read the thread? I can respond to these but it seems like you don't know what you're talking about in context and instead of responding with confusion when you don't know the context. Read the past 2 pages, its pretty easy to follow.

"And could you try to point out, what this Giratina thing should mean? We all know that if you use a mon of Ubers the whole team is only valid in Ubers, but ???" - i was pointing out that this line of logic is a fallacy - that if you use a mon on a unique team its doesn't mean much since even though it puts in work it somehow needs 5 mons of support or is only in that context, which isn't true whatsoever for a plethora of reasons and almost is never true (which is easy to see imo). What i gave an example of was a ~proof by substitution~ish, basically lets assume that we were talking about giratina, a mon we all know to be ubers (but for sake of argument lets assume that its not or something doesnt matter). His entire points would be the same, but if they were valid points that would mean that giratina isnt viable, but we know it to be more than that so his premise must be flawed.
Again for you last one, it's like you didnt read a word I said so please do

Edit: him and I talked it out in dm
one last thing btw b/c yall seem to not understand this. idgaf if mandi isnt ou. it represents and archetype, it could be avalugg for all i care and on another team it is, it could be mage or torn idgaf. it represents an archetype and is not that specific. stop with that meta slave argument please, it is a fallacy and its just a cop out. mandibuzz isnt ou b/c people believe it to not be so, not its usefulness. remember that young blood. and just bc you believe something to be, doesnt mean it is

 

[lydian]

I know I’m a bit late to the party, but I’d like to make a point to keep S rank. I can definitely understand why someone would consider this a good idea, but the thought of grouping Landorus-T and Heatran with the A+ Pokémon just sounds a little ridiculous, not gonna lie. Both Heatran and Landorus-T really are a step up above A+ each in their own ways: Landorus-T will be covered more in depth later, but Heatran is honestly the face of the current metagame, it’s an extremely effective wallbreaker with a wide array of viable Z-move sets, from Corkscrew Crash to Inferno Overdrive and even Bloom Doom occasionally, if backed up by a great player Heatran can really screw up pretty much all of its checks with either a well-timed Corkscrew Crash or a Toxic, not to mention Heatran is an exceptional setter of Stealth Rock and has plenty of other viable options. In addition, nuking S rank would make A+ unecessarily and overly crowded, with a whopping eleven Pokémon.

As for Landorus-T itself, I get the “he isn’t as great as it once was” argument, and I gotta say he’s not on Heatran’s level anymore, but that doesn’t make it comparable to tier A+ Pokémon, as I still think the role compression that Landorus-T proportionates with the Choice Scarf is undeniable, plus offensive sets are very viable wallbreakers or Stealth Rock setters as well, and, I mean, there’s a reason it’s still the most used Pokémon on high ladder by a landslide. If anything I’d say Landorus-T would be somewhere in between S and A+, but it definitely doesn’t sound like a good idea to revive S- just to fit Landorus-T, because that’d give an impression that there’s a bigger gap between S and A+, which is, in all honestly, not really the case. That being said, not only is Landorus-T leaning more towards S as opposed to A+, but leaving Heatran as the sole S rank Pokémon would once again give an impression that the viability gap between S and A+ is bigger than what it actually is.

That being said, I think leaving S rank as it currently is is perfectly fine. Everyone’s favorite genie is still a top tier threat, and Heatran is definitely too hot for A+. Don’t nuke S rank.

 

[Ktütverde]

Hi!

I just would like to comment on the C- rank, which i think is quite a mess.
I can barely imagine letting slowbro/dragonite together with stuff like aerodactyl and buzzwole. I don't want to be hater, but slowbro and dnite are 100x times better than the latter three. But let's talk about the C- dudes one by one:

-slowbro: amazing mon for C-, walls medicham, landorus, zygarde, swampert, protean gren, celesteela etc.
-dragonite: multiscale is amazing, helps revenge killing hawlucha for HO teams, tank hpices/icebeams, and more generally setting up vs anything. +1 dnite can destroy offense and balance alike with little support.

then:
-Golem-A has a clearly a niche since it can trap most steels, especially heatran.
-Scolipede is incredibly hard to build around, but can sweep many teams, and finds several setup opportunities with tapubulu, clefable, tapufini, +5050s vs tapulele/latios, while providing some utility by absorbing toxicspikes and being a really fast mon.
-Mega-chomp checks heatran very well and can wallbreak very well with sandstorm
-shuckle has access to sturdy, stealth rock and webs which is unique (smeargle too but is super frail and cant run mental herb)
-mega-altaria wals greninja ash, and can decently support the team with healbell or sweep with DD because it is buky enough to tank scarf lando moves has access to EQ to break pas spdef pex if paired with zone for steels
-azelf: only HO lead with stealth rock able to 100% prevent toxicspikes from toxapex with taunt. Spin drill is shaky here (scald burns)

finally:
-buzzwole: what is this mon doing in an Ou game? I love buzzwole, even tried using it during OLT, but this mon literally does nothing. One can say: it walls kartana and zygarde and mamoswine! But mamoswine isnt a thing, helmet tangrowth is as bulky, but with access to regen, walls swampert... SubPunch buzzwole is unviable, 4 move slot syndrom, and doesnt break anything well+doesnt find many setup opportunities. Buzzwole is a liability and using tangrowth is Always the right choice. Outclassed, unviable.
-Stakataka: give me a reason to use this, even in trick room. Unable to beat pex, dies to coverage moves from ttar/tapulele/magearna. Rock+TR: use uxie.
-aerodactly mega: this thing literally cant do anything in OU. Weak to rocks, struggles vs landorus+whatever u want. Its only merit is to be fast and wall tornadus, but it will get trolled by predictions vs landorus/steels/pex, speed tie with zam=pursuit aero has no reliable niche, and is just weak. Don't use it.


I really don't think slowbro and dnite can remain with terrible stuff like the last three i listed, so imo either make slowbro and dragonite rise or Unrank buzzwole/aero/stakataka. I would rather unrank these 3 because ive never seen a serious game where they did anything well.

edit:

just saw that you guys are discussing about removing S rank, i heavily disagree with it.

Scarf landorus is S-rank worthy due to its incredible splashability, being the best scarfer by far, and making HO semi-bad on its own. The meta would be quite different without Scarf lando being used everywhere, im 100% sure about this: stuff like zygarde, dd gyara, medicham, mawile, and tapu koko would become really, really scary. For those who don't know, a pokemon can be S rank because of one single set, and sets can be ranked on a viability ranking of the sets.

Offensive heatran is meta defining, and heavily affects the way stall is build, balance is built and offense is built. Removing S and putting heatran with mons like alakazam and ferro would be unfair.

 

[Nazghâsh]

Hi all! First post on the thread, so sorry for everything I’ll do wrong!

Nuke S : Disagree. As stated in other posts, the S-rank should definitely stay. What we should do is discussing about moving Lando and Tran, but nothing else.

Lando-T from S to A+ : Disagree. Scarf is still a pain with U-turn. EQ and HP Ice are great at targeting top-tier Pokemon, and the last slot is free for either SR, Defog, or a coverage move. Other sets (SD + Z Crystal) are also very good atm. It’s not at its best level, but is still meta-defining.
Tornadus-T to A : Disagree. Still a great defogger and pivot, capable of doing so much with its moves: Taunt and Knock Off can nuke defensive mons and set-up/choiced offensive mons. It grabs so much momentum with U-turn, easily deals with TTar and Heatran with Superpower, and literally destroys mons with Z-Hurricane. So...
Kartana to A- : Totally disagree. Even if Kartana has seen less usage due to metagame trends, it is still a meta defining mon that threatens a lot of top-levels creatures: Tapu Bulu (thanks to the new SpD set, Kartana has no issue damaging it with Smart Strike), Toxapex (+2 2OHKOes), Tyranitar, the newly seen Gyarados Mega, Heatran with Fightinium-Z... It can still act as an offensive defogger in HO, a revenge killer, a set-up/late-game sweeper, a wallbreaker... so even of it has lost the influence that makes a mon A+, it should at least remain A-ranked.

That’s it. Sorry if what I said isn’t true, and thanks for reading me!

 

[ShadowMarioGalaxy64]

I want to remind everyone that Stakataka remains ranked because it has a niche just viable enough to use in OU; this point has been explained enough by Finchinator, I'm sure. The state of lower ranks is, quite honestly, not as important as the state of ranks like A+ and S.

Speaking of, I'm avidly against removing S Rank. The point of this rank is to point Pokemon out that are dominant in the tier *and* are above and beyond A+ beyond a reasonable doubt. It doesn't really come down to how many sets that Pokemon can optimally perform; Toxapex was S for a long while and it really only did one set very well. It really comes down to straight up being better. In the case of Landorus-T, and if it were the only variable, I would be able to see why the question would be brought up. I'm not saying that Landorus-T needs to drop--quite the opposite; that genie can still pull off so many sets well, even after Choice Scarf got somewhat stale. It has fallen slightly, at least enough that questioning its placement isn't far-fetched.

That just isn't the case for S, though, as we have to consider a second Pokemon: Heatran. There is no doubt that Heatran is certainly above and beyond everything else in the tier, as it has been perfectly explained throughout the past slates why. To anybody thinking that S Rank needs to be removed, I implore you to go through the past page or two and read why Heatran is as good as it is and why it justifies keeping a rank that signifies a Pokemon is just better than everything else, but not necessarily ban worthy.

I also want to address any possible talks of S- returning because of Landorus-T and why it's not really worth bringing up again. Truth be told, most people find Landorus-T still S worthy, even in its current state, so adding a subrank back after the controversy it started before seems counter-productive. Not advocating for it, but I want to remind people that the time still isn't now, if ever.

I hope this potentially clears things up and I apologize for any format issues, I'm on mobile right now.

 

[fanyfan]

Hi!

I just would like to comment on the C- rank, which i think is quite a mess.
I can barely imagine letting slowbro/dragonite together with stuff like aerodactyl and buzzwole. I don't want to be hater, but slowbro and dnite are 100x times better than the latter three. But let's talk about the C- dudes one by one:

-slowbro: amazing mon for C-, walls medicham, landorus, zygarde, swampert, protean gren, celesteela etc.
-dragonite: multiscale is amazing, helps revenge killing hawlucha for HO teams, tank hpices/icebeams, and more generally setting up vs anything. +1 dnite can destroy offense and balance alike with little support.

then:
-Golem-A has a clearly a niche since it can trap most steels, especially heatran.
-Scolipede is incredibly hard to build around, but can sweep many teams, and finds several setup opportunities with tapubulu, clefable, tapufini, +5050s vs tapulele/latios, while providing some utility by absorbing toxicspikes and being a really fast mon.
-Mega-chomp checks heatran very well and can wallbreak very well with sandstorm
-shuckle has access to sturdy, stealth rock and webs which is unique (smeargle too but is super frail and cant run mental herb)
-mega-altaria wals greninja ash, and can decently support the team with healbell or sweep with DD because it is buky enough to tank scarf lando moves has access to EQ to break pas spdef pex if paired with zone for steels
-azelf: only HO lead with stealth rock able to 100% prevent toxicspikes from toxapex with taunt. Spin drill is shaky here (scald burns)

finally:
-buzzwole: what is this mon doing in an Ou game? I love buzzwole, even tried using it during OLT, but this mon literally does nothing. One can say: it walls kartana and zygarde and mamoswine! But mamoswine isnt a thing, helmet tangrowth is as bulky, but with access to regen, walls swampert... SubPunch buzzwole is unviable, 4 move slot syndrom, and doesnt break anything well+doesnt find many setup opportunities. Buzzwole is a liability and using tangrowth is Always the right choice. Outclassed, unviable.
-Stakataka: give me a reason to use this, even in trick room. Unable to beat pex, dies to coverage moves from ttar/tapulele/magearna. Rock+TR: use uxie.
-aerodactly mega: this thing literally cant do anything in OU. Weak to rocks, struggles vs landorus+whatever u want. Its only merit is to be fast and wall tornadus, but it will get trolled by predictions vs landorus/steels/pex, speed tie with zam=pursuit aero has no reliable niche, and is just weak. Don't use it.


I really don't think slowbro and dnite can remain with terrible stuff like the last three i listed, so imo either make slowbro and dragonite rise or Unrank buzzwole/aero/stakataka. I would rather unrank these 3 because ive never seen a serious game where they did anything well.

Ok I never post here but I feel like I need to respond to this. I feel like you don’t understand why some of these mons are ranked. Sorry if this breaks the rules of the thread but I feel like this needs to be said.

mega-altaria wals greninja ash, and can decently support the team with healbell or sweep with DD because it is buky enough to tank scarf lando moves has access to EQ to break pas spdef pex if paired with zone for steels

Alt isn’t ranked for any DD or Heal Bell things. It’s a defogger that can check a couple things like Ash Gren and Bulu. That’s it. The DD set can’t break past a lot of common mons even with earthquake. Celesteela, Ferrothorn, Mega Scizor, Mega Venusaur, etc. The Heal Bell set would only be viable on stall but Mega Sableye is on pretty much every stall team in existence so it can’t even fit there. Basically, it’s not as viable as you’re making it out to be and is one of the least viable c- mons imo.

-buzzwole: what is this mon doing in an Ou game? I love buzzwole, even tried using it during OLT, but this mon literally does nothing. One can say: it walls kartana and zygarde and mamoswine! But mamoswine isnt a thing, helmet tangrowth is as bulky, but with access to regen, walls swampert... SubPunch buzzwole is unviable, 4 move slot syndrom, and doesnt break anything well+doesnt find many setup opportunities. Buzzwole is a liability and using tangrowth is Always the right choice. Outclassed, unviable.

Buzzwole was actually ranked for its use on stall. It’s a very consistent answer to zygarde, Kartana, Bulu, Mega Heracross, some Lando-t, etc. while serving as a wincon with Bulk Up. Now I could see an argument for unranking it, since Avalugg has gotten more popular as a physical wall on stall since it got ranked in the wcop times, but ignoring its niche isn’t one of them.

-Stakataka: give me a reason to use this, even in trick room. Unable to beat pex, dies to coverage moves from ttar/tapulele/magearna. Rock+TR: use uxie.

Unable to break pex? 252+ Atk Stakataka Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Toxapex: 168-198 (55.4 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252+ Atk Stakataka Continental Crush (180 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Toxapex: 225-265 (74.2 - 87.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
It can 2hko with eq or ko with the z-move after a little chip or a +1. Hardly sounds that walled to me. It dies from 3 mons’ coverage moves? Great, what about the others that it doesn’t? It’s ranked as a hard to wall mon on trick room that can snowball with beast boost. In fact, didn’t Finch just make a post about this where he said it’s still viable on trick room? Yeah.

-aerodactly mega: this thing literally cant do anything in OU. Weak to rocks, struggles vs landorus+whatever u want. Its only merit is to be fast and wall tornadus, but it will get trolled by predictions vs landorus/steels/pex, speed tie with zam=pursuit aero has no reliable niche, and is just weak. Don't use it.

Uh, prediction is a two-way street. Aero can just as easily predict those mons too. It’s not choice locked so it’s not like it’s 100% reliant on prediction. Also, lando isn’t that bad for it since it has ice fang to break it anyway. It actually does bring more utility to a team than a late-game cleaner. It can check non-steelium Heatran, it’s a ground immunity, etc. It’s not great, but that’s why it’s c-. My biggest point though, is that prediction is a two-way street.

I wouldn’t mind rising Slowbro, dragonite im not too sure about because it really needs rocks off to work effectively and ho doesn’t have the best hazard removal plus the competition it faces with gyara, but you don’t seem to understand the niches of some mons in c-. This is going to be my only post on this to not derail the thread with c- discussion.[/QUOTE]

 

[Ktütverde]

Ok I never post here but I feel like I need to respond to this. I feel like you don’t understand why some of these mons are ranked. Sorry if this breaks the rules of the thread but I feel like this needs to be said.

Alt isn’t ranked for any DD or Heal Bell things. It’s a defogger that can check a couple things like Ash Gren and Bulu. That’s it. The DD set can’t break past a lot of common mons even with earthquake. Celesteela, Ferrothorn, Mega Scizor, Mega Venusaur, etc. The Heal Bell set would only be viable on stall but Mega Sableye is on pretty much every stall team in existence so it can’t even fit there. Basically, it’s not as viable as you’re making it out to be and is one of the least viable c- mons imo.

Buzzwole was actually ranked for its use on stall. It’s a very consistent answer to zygarde, Kartana, Bulu, Mega Heracross, some Lando-t, etc. while serving as a wincon with Bulk Up. Now I could see an argument for unranking it, since Avalugg has gotten more popular as a physical wall on stall since it got ranked in the wcop times, but ignoring its niche isn’t one of them.

Unable to break pex? 252+ Atk Stakataka Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Toxapex: 168-198 (55.4 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252+ Atk Stakataka Continental Crush (180 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Toxapex: 225-265 (74.2 - 87.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
It can 2hko with eq or ko with the z-move after a little chip or a +1. Hardly sounds that walled to me. It dies from 3 mons’ coverage moves? Great, what about the others that it doesn’t? It’s ranked as a hard to wall mon on trick room that can snowball with beast boost. In fact, didn’t Finch just make a post about this where he said it’s still viable on trick room? Yeah.

Uh, prediction is a two-way street. Aero can just as easily predict those mons too. It’s not choice locked so it’s not like it’s 100% reliant on prediction. Also, lando isn’t that bad for it since it has ice fang to break it anyway. It actually does bring more utility to a team than a late-game cleaner. It can check non-steelium Heatran, it’s a ground immunity, etc. It’s not great, but that’s why it’s c-. My biggest point though, is that prediction is a two-way street.

I wouldn’t mind rising Slowbro, dragonite im not too sure about because it really needs rocks off to work effectively and ho doesn’t have the best hazard removal plus the competition it faces with gyara, but you don’t seem to understand the niches of some mons in c-. This is going to be my only post on this to not derail the thread with c- discussion.

[/QUOTE]
Sorry for being ignorant (not ironically, I probably have a biased opinion and lack of information), but

1) I've literally never seen more than one buzzwole stall which was highly questionable since using it solely for heracross isnt a great idea when it makes u lose a ton of utility as compared with tangrowth.
2) defog altaria is literally the worst set I could imagine for alt, doesnt beat any stealth rock user actually
3) pex is used with bulu or lando, the probability u manage to do a kill is close to 0, and trickroom sweepers are supposed to click moves without finding true resists to switch into
4) aerodactly doesnt check anything, heatran poisons/burns it and u just lose a ton of momentum by roosting. It's not "not great", i just haven't found any relevant argument to justify it is viable, and u didnt bring any true one, so c- is too high for me when its utility is null . Checking non-toxic/non-wow/non-Z heatran+being a 'ground resist' isnt an argument to justify aerodactly's niche.

(and i do have tried all the mons i listed, which maybe helps me understanding them better or have a more biased opinion)

 

[TheUprising007]

defog altaria is literally the worst set I could imagine for alt, doesnt beat any stealth rock user actually

To add onto Fanyfan's post - some of the reasons why bulky Altaria is the more viable variant, because it's one of the few hazard removers that can boast having a good match up against heatran(if it isn't the SteeliumZ), spread paralysis(Body Slam spam), counter CharY, and sometimes Mega-Gyara and CharX

 

[robofiend]

Sorry for being ignorant (not ironically, I probably have a biased opinion and lack of information), but

1) I've literally never seen more than one buzzwole stall which was highly questionable since using it solely for heracross isnt a great idea when it makes u lose a ton of utility as compared with tangrowth.
2) defog altaria is literally the worst set I could imagine for alt, doesnt beat any stealth rock user actually
3) pex is used with bulu or lando, the probability u manage to do a kill is close to 0, and trickroom sweepers are supposed to click moves without finding true resists to switch into
4) aerodactly doesnt check anything, heatran poisons/burns it and u just lose a ton of momentum by roosting. It's not "not great", i just haven't found any relevant argument to justify it is viable, and u didnt bring any true one, so c- is too high for me when its utility is null . Checking non-toxic/non-wow/non-Z heatran+being a 'ground resist' isnt an argument to justify aerodactly's niche.

(and i do have tried all the mons i listed, which maybe helps me understanding them better or have a more biased opinion)

Overall I think you're overestimating what C/C- is. It's like base-level stuff that can be used and is used in OU successfully. Nothing fancy, just a small little niche, that it shares with other things that somewhat outclasses it, that it might need team support to help do, just a little semi-unique thing that it can do well for a team that in some meta circumstance is all it takes to be ranked.

1. Buzzwole is used both on stall squads and on offensive/BO teams that need to check lots of threats with one mon to work well. Buzzwole does this. It eats Kart, Bulu, Zygarde, Swampert, Bisharp, Zeraora, M-Gyarados, and a host of other physically offensive mons for breakfast. Helmet Tangrowth beats most of these too, but dies to boosting SD sets, lacks Roost, takes huge damage from mixed attackers, and it must pivot and give away a turn to Regen against 2x hits. This last one is big - Tang isn't that self-sufficient and after it takes a hit or two it's going to need to swap to get HP back. This can make life harder against stallier Sub/Protect Zygarde sets that rely on Toxic Spike damage to beat Tang. Oh yeah, and doesn't have the cool Beast Boost wincon. It's viable, it's not great, it should be ranked.

2. More or less agree. I never see Altaria in OU matches, however, and frankly believe it should go to the shadow realm. Whatever niche it had in checking Ash-Gren, Zard-X, or Bulu is so tiny that it's not even worth considering at this point imo, this thing just can't hang with the rest of the relevant meta and lets pretty much everything in for free.

3. What's so hard about "Prediction Is A Two-Way Street"? Sure, Bulu, Pex and Lando exist in the meta, and Staka has to play around them. But not every team has these 2 or 3 of these mons at full health facing a Staka - who 3HKO's any Lando at worst, 2HKO's Pex, OHKO's Bulu, etc. And if you are to mess up against Staka and send in the wrong mon, it's going to get a Beast Boost, which is no joke when it comes to sweeping. TR itself counters balance and HO, which often rely on speedy attackers to do their offensive/defensive bidding and are left out to dry without Heatran or Lando's ability to outspeed and KO a mon like Staka. Again, it's viable, it's not great, it should be ranked.

4. This is just factually incorrect. Roost M-Aero checks Torn-T, Landorus-T (lacking Stone Edge), non-steelium Heatran, Pinsir, bird/normal spam, etc. Taking status does not suddenly make M-Aero unviable, and it can continue to use Ice Fang, Fire Fang, Pursuit, EQ, Stone Edge, Wing Attack, and so on to be effective and clean up or wear down opposing teams. It has a good, diverse movepool, reliable recovery, it can beast most of its checks (or at least wear them down), it has a great ability, and it can contribute both offensively and defensively to teams. People sometimes nowadays run Adamant for firepower since it kinda needs it and doesn't need the speed so much. The reason it's still ranked is largely because of Heatran and how hard Heatran is to check offensively. While Steelium does bite into this, M-Aero has other uses and, again, it's not like every team has a Steelium Tran on deck waiting to bait things like M-Aero. It's viable, it's not great, it should be ranked, and it is.

252+ Atk Tough Claws Aerodactyl-Mega Fire Fang vs. 252 HP / 48 Def Ferrothorn: 320-380 (90.9 - 107.9%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Tough Claws Aerodactyl-Mega Fire Fang vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Scizor-Mega: 240-284 (69.9 - 82.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Tough Claws Aerodactyl-Mega Fire Fang vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 186-220 (51.2 - 60.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Aerodactyl-Mega Ice Fang vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Landorus-Therian: 304-360 (79.5 - 94.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

vs. HP Ice Lando it switches in, eats a Rock + HP Ice, at worst eats another HP Ice from Scarf, and then you Roost to safety.
0 SpA Landorus-Therian Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Aerodactyl-Mega: 94-112 (31.2 - 37.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

 

[paoisd]

garchomp up to b--> SUPER HARD AGREE
i am really so in love with this mon right now. sd rocks dragonium z is absolutely amazing right now and should get at least one kill a game and absolutely demolishes bulky offenses and balances. it is also great at getting rocks up and its a decent situational heatran check. tank chomp is also great rn as the chip damage from helmet and rough skin is great for things like kartana making them not want to attack and switch instead or they attack and take a huge amount of chip. the increased usage in things like reuniclus and heatran among other mons as well as things like lando and koko which can revenge kill it dropping off a bit is great for it. it also benefits a lot from mawile being so strong because it can revenge kill mawile very well. please raise this mon finally

landorus down to a+ --> disagree
lando has dropped off a little bit but i still think it is definitely still a top two mon in the current meta. people are advocating for this to drop because of scarf being so popular which makes absolutely no sense to me because that just means that people will predict scarf more often than not leaving them more open to offensive sets which it has plenty of. lando can still run a million sets and be amazing at all of them. it is also still a great situational blanket check to over half the meta it appreciates the rise of heatran which it can revenge kill. people are also sleeping on helmet sets which are still good.

tornadus down --> hardest disagree of my life
i love tornadus right now. it is one of my 3 favorite mons to use right now because it is the best defogger in the tier and can run a lot of very viable sets. i am really loving fightinium z as a lure to mons like tran. basically this mon chooses its counters because of the different sets it runs and the dropping of electric types like koko and zapdos dont do it harm either. the further the meta evolves the more sets people will discover and the more uses and more unpredictable tornadus will become. dont drop this mon.

heracross up --> agree
mega heracross is in a great spot right now due to the fact that balance is pretty prevalent and heracross puts in an immense amount of work against balance. the spark in usage of things like reuniclus are great for this mon and the decline of lando is also great. not much else to say, just think it fits better among things like zapdos and weavile right now than stuff like diancie and alomomola


slowbro (and mega slowbro) up --> agree
these two are pretty much the same mon except mega slowbro is slightly better at what it does and also has a very viable calm mind set which is why im nomming them together. the usage of stuff like mawile heatran zygarde lando and others really makes both slowbros in a great spot right now as a pivot for anything from bulky offense to stall. the fact that they can also run moves like thunder wave and fire blast to hurt some of the things that would be considered checks to them such as ferrothorn is great for them.

now for my own nom
tapu fini up to b
fini is in a great spot right now as the taunt set can complete decimate balance builds and it is a great defogger. it appreciates the usage of stuff like lando and zygarde a lot is great against teams that have the cores of like toxapex celesteela. it's misty terrain is great right now with paralysis and burning and toxic being soooo prevalent rn. also being a hard counter to ash gren (which is imo the most threatening mon in the tier) while also being able to defog it's spikes off is something that only fini can say and its something that really supports it going up.

 

[Ktütverde]

I don't want to push the discussion about C- further, but the examples people have given are more than situational and absolutely unlikely to work. I could show you 4-5 buzzwole squads and dozens of replays and it literally never does its job correctly for example. I understand what u are trying to say, they do "a little thing helpful in OU" but that definitely isnt enough imo.

If C- is for mons like these, then please, please make slowbro+dnite rise, because they are just way better than these useless mons.
Also I would like to say that unranked stuff like nidoqueen, starmie, tentacruel, cloyster, chesnaught and toxicroak are way more viable than aero, buzzwole and stakataka, but I think I'm going to provoke another controvery or whatever so I'll stop posting now ^-^'

 

[Deleted User [433215]]

I don't want to push the discussion about C- further, but the examples people have given are more than situational and absolutely unlikely to work. I could show you 4-5 buzzwole squads and dozens of replays and it literally never does its job correctly for example. I understand what u are trying to say, they do "a little thing helpful in OU" but that definitely isnt enough imo.

If C- is for mons like these, then please, please make slowbro+dnite rise, because they are just way better than these useless mons.
Also I would like to say that unranked stuff like nidoqueen, starmie, tentacruel, cloyster, chesnaught and toxicroak are way more viable than aero, buzzwole and stakataka, but I think I'm going to provoke another controvery or whatever so I'll stop posting now ^-^'

This'll be my only statement about the C- stuff. But...

Buzzwole has worked before on stall (Wouldn't be ranked if it didn't.) You say you used it in OLT, the meta with HO everywhere. Hardly fair to it. If you're really unable to find good buzzwole performances, you're either not looking hard enough or the players you cherrypicked played bad (would love to see those btw). And Tang doesn't have instant recovery with the different typing.

Mega Alt is just a bad mon that i think will be UR'd soon. But it's never been known for DDing or whatever. It's supposedly a defogger to beat Ash Gren and non z steel Tran (even tho it doesn't do a very good job doing it, but that's for another time).

Sayin prediction means somethin needs to be unranked almost always isn't an arugement. Staka is just used for brutal TR gyro balls. And EQ means Pex aint the safest measure out there. This just felt off as an argument.

Mega Aero is indeed an actual Tran switch in for offense if Tran isnt z grass or z steel. Its also as fast as Zam and has pursuit, serving as a nice check. And ice fang makes Lando no counter while aero takes anything that aint stone edge while also being a great torn check which is nice.

These mons are not amazing, we can all agree. They're C- for a reason. Theyre flawed mons with small niches that can help certain teams. I feel you just did this to push slowbro and dnite up. U coulda just nommed them bro. That's all I gotta say. Next time, think what points ur making and their validity before posting and if theyre worth making.

 

[Deleted User 464209]

You know, with all this discussion about whether niche mons X,Y,Z, should be C/C-/Unranked, I'm thinking that the C rank itself probably shouldn't be that big a concern to the VR community.

OU is the creme de la creme of all 600-something Pokemon available for use. People using the viability rankings as a resource aren't going to care about, say, Palossand's ability to check some rando OU set. They want to know the common mons in the meta and what's strong at the moment. Experienced teambuilders don't need to know that something is now C- to fill that small niche on their team.

If you look at the C ranks it's mostly stuff that has a use on a single archetype in a very tight role: trickroom, webs, veil. IMO only the A-ranks really matter; leave the niche stuff to the metagame discussion thread. Lol just get rid of the lower ranks for an "other options" section. They just serve to distract from discussion about the stuff that is actually used.

Don't mean to be all "burn down the VR" here...I just think people are wasting time on silly stuff that players looking for meta info aren't going to care about.

 

[Taptricity]

now for my own nom
tapu fini up to b
fini is in a great spot right now as the taunt set can complete decimate balance builds and it is a great defogger. it appreciates the usage of stuff like lando and zygarde a lot is great against teams that have the cores of like toxapex celesteela. it's misty terrain is great right now with paralysis and burning and toxic being soooo prevalent rn. also being a hard counter to ash gren (which is imo the most threatening mon in the tier) while also being able to defog it's spikes off is something that only fini can say and its something that really supports it going up.

Easily seconding this. Fini has always felt off in B- anyway. The meta is a lot more status heavy than it’s been with Serp and Zyg firing off Glares and Mega Sab burning shit just makes Fini’s Terrain pretty undervalued currently. Fini has a much easier time preventing Reuni’s sweep than Pex. Also Ash Gren, Blace, and Hydreigon are gaining traction and Fini handles all 3 of them with ease. Fini is also a pain in the ass for stall to deal with as stall relies heavily on status and putting their opponent on a time limit or crippling them and then walling to death which Fini prevents any of those scenarios. Overall I think that Fini is currently a solid pick in the metagame atm.

Also going to agree with banning Mega Altaria to the shadow realm. I don’t really want to be a part of this whole “C- rank is a mess” argument but I will talk about the fluffy shitmon. It’s almost kind of memey that it’s even ranked in the first place. It’s already an incredibly hard mon to fit anywhere since it takes up your mega slot and its overall completely underwhelming. So it’s a Defogger that walls Ash Gren and Bulu....ok? Then it’s basically just dead weight in any other situation. This mon’s stats are nothing to write home about as anything else it tries to do is 100% outclassed by a far better mon so I think it should be good to let the fluffy shitmon to rest easy.

 

[BlueLobster]

You know, with all this discussion about whether niche mons X,Y,Z, should be C/C-/Unranked, I'm thinking that the C rank itself probably shouldn't be that big a concern to the VR community.

OU is the creme de la creme of all 600-something Pokemon available for use. People using the viability rankings as a resource aren't going to care about, say, Palossand's ability to check some rando OU set. They want to know the common mons in the meta and what's strong at the moment. Experienced teambuilders don't need to know that something is now C- to fill that small niche on their team.

If you look at the C ranks it's mostly stuff that has a use on a single archetype in a very tight role: trickroom, webs, veil. IMO only the A-ranks really matter; leave the niche stuff to the metagame discussion thread. Lol just get rid of the lower ranks for an "other options" section. They just serve to distract from discussion about the stuff that is actually used.

Don't mean to be all "burn down the VR" here...I just think people are wasting time on silly stuff that players looking for meta info aren't going to care about.

If you're meaning remove the C ranks, I strongly disagree. As a resource for newer players (which this primarily is) I think the C ranks are important as they show a wide array of mons with a valid niche that they may be looking for and would find much harder to list if we only had the high ranks (most of these are obvious anyway due to being OU by usage). Not really sure what replacing C with an "other options" list helps with either, isn't that essentially what is is now? I do agree that we tend to get overly heated about the C ranks though.

About more important matters: Strongly agree with the fini nom. I've just recently used this for the first time in a while and it really offers some great role compression and team support right now. Misty terrain is an excellent tool to counter the glare spam flying around atm, it can be a defogger, it's a relatively decent stallbreaker due to taunt + natures madness (and also has moonblast for msab), checks ash gren and tran in one while also helping the zyg matchup. This is very important as these are by far the scariest threats in the meta rn, so to be able to improve your matchup V all 3 in one slot while offering other support is really nice. Looking at the rest of B-, it really is above stuff like Volcanion that make up the B- rank and is really due a rise.

Edit: Also strongly disagree with torn t dropping, it's easily the top defogger in the tier and serves as fabulous glue for a large amount of teams. It's one of the last mons I would consider dropping, and I fail to see what has gotten worse for it to justify a drop, it's just as solid as ever.

 

[Deleted User 464209]

If you're meaning remove the C ranks, I strongly disagree. As a resource for newer players (which this primarily is) I think the C ranks are important as they show a wide array of mons with a valid niche that they may be looking for and would find much harder to list if we only had the high ranks (most of these are obvious anyway due to being OU by usage). Not really sure what replacing C with an "other options" list helps with either, isn't that essentially what is is now? I do agree that we tend to get overly heated about the C ranks though.

That's what the excellent the Role Compendium is for. It even goes so far as to make a distinction between common and niche Pokemon. Again, I'm not suggeting the whole VR need to be restructured and it's not my place to do so (though I wouldn't be opposed lol). I think discussion on lower rank nominations should be far more metered so that half of the thread isn't back and forth over some mon that gets .05% usage. That's all I have to say.

 

[xapx]

garchomp up to b--> SUPER HARD AGREE
i am really so in love with this mon right now. sd rocks dragonium z is absolutely amazing right now and should get at least one kill a game and absolutely demolishes bulky offenses and balances. it is also great at getting rocks up and its a decent situational heatran check. tank chomp is also great rn as the chip damage from helmet and rough skin is great for things like kartana making them not want to attack and switch instead or they attack and take a huge amount of chip. the increased usage in things like reuniclus and heatran among other mons as well as things like lando and koko which can revenge kill it dropping off a bit is great for it. it also benefits a lot from mawile being so strong because it can revenge kill mawile very well. please raise this mon finally

landorus down to a+ --> disagree
lando has dropped off a little bit but i still think it is definitely still a top two mon in the current meta. people are advocating for this to drop because of scarf being so popular which makes absolutely no sense to me because that just means that people will predict scarf more often than not leaving them more open to offensive sets which it has plenty of. lando can still run a million sets and be amazing at all of them. it is also still a great situational blanket check to over half the meta it appreciates the rise of heatran which it can revenge kill. people are also sleeping on helmet sets which are still good.

tornadus down --> hardest disagree of my life
i love tornadus right now. it is one of my 3 favorite mons to use right now because it is the best defogger in the tier and can run a lot of very viable sets. i am really loving fightinium z as a lure to mons like tran. basically this mon chooses its counters because of the different sets it runs and the dropping of electric types like koko and zapdos dont do it harm either. the further the meta evolves the more sets people will discover and the more uses and more unpredictable tornadus will become. dont drop this mon.

heracross up --> agree
mega heracross is in a great spot right now due to the fact that balance is pretty prevalent and heracross puts in an immense amount of work against balance. the spark in usage of things like reuniclus are great for this mon and the decline of lando is also great. not much else to say, just think it fits better among things like zapdos and weavile right now than stuff like diancie and alomomola


slowbro (and mega slowbro) up --> agree
these two are pretty much the same mon except mega slowbro is slightly better at what it does and also has a very viable calm mind set which is why im nomming them together. the usage of stuff like mawile heatran zygarde lando and others really makes both slowbros in a great spot right now as a pivot for anything from bulky offense to stall. the fact that they can also run moves like thunder wave and fire blast to hurt some of the things that would be considered checks to them such as ferrothorn is great for them.

now for my own nom
tapu fini up to b
fini is in a great spot right now as the taunt set can complete decimate balance builds and it is a great defogger. it appreciates the usage of stuff like lando and zygarde a lot is great against teams that have the cores of like toxapex celesteela. it's misty terrain is great right now with paralysis and burning and toxic being soooo prevalent rn. also being a hard counter to ash gren (which is imo the most threatening mon in the tier) while also being able to defog it's spikes off is something that only fini can say and its something that really supports it going up.

I'm going to start off by agreeing nominations for Garchomp and Tapu Fini. I've fallen in love with SD Rocks Chomp since I discovered imsosorrylol's team in the SM OU teambuilding workshop, being so effective in getting rocks up, having a decent speed tier, and being able to get a kill almost every time with Devastating Drake. It's also able to catch Tornadus-Ts being a savage and taunting Chomp.

Fini is also a pretty good Mon rn, checking mons like both Grens (Proteans w/out Gunk), non-Steel Z/Grass Z Tran, Hydreigon, and so on. Having Taunt is also pretty good against fatter mons such as Ferro or Pex, stopping them from getting up hazards/seeding and tspiking/recovering respectively. Imo what's best is that Misty Terrain allows Zygarde to set up without worrying about status, and it actually beats Curse MegaScizor and chip Bulu with Nature's Madness.

Thanks Finch for giving us such a detailed explanation on Zygarde, Tran and Landot. It's changed my opinion on several of my original views.

I was originally for nuking S, but after playing a bit more I found that both Landorus and Heatran are still holding dominant positions in the tier. Landorus, albeit dropping in usage, is still a great check to a bunch of mons, the defensive set still checks stuff like Kart and Zyg, and somewhat Zard X, while also being a really solid rocker (fuck those Specs Koko or HP Ice crits). Z sets are also rising in popularity, since SSSS helps against Bulu and stuff and Rock Z is just for catching like Torn Zap and just stuff trying to switch into EQ. It's ability to run so much different sets and apply pressure on most teams just denies A+ for it.

Tran will probably never drop in Gen 7

Ye I haven't got any noms rn

E: I also think we should drop the C rank argument because it's getting kind of pointless

 

[AM]

That's what the excellent the Role Compendium is for. It even goes so far as to make a distinction between common and niche Pokemon. Again, I'm not suggeting the whole VR need to be restructured and it's not my place to do so (though I wouldn't be opposed lol). I think discussion on lower rank nominations should be far more metered so that half of the thread isn't back and forth over some mon that gets .05% usage. That's all I have to say.

To add on this reply the VR thread isn’t really good for new players since new players are better off using sample teams, usage stats, word of mouth by experienced players who some dont use the VR to make judgements anyways. The VR is good to keep traffic going through the subforum and thats really about it. You show this to new players theyre going to be more confused. Hands on experience gives you a better understanding to learn the game, not the VR.

 

[blank]

i think mega medicham should drop to A-. there's a lot more reuniclus now than before, and while clefable has dropped in viability recently, it's still a really common glue mon on a lot of teams (just one that can be taken advantage of easily). furthermore, regular slowbro has begun to gain traction, and it's a super nice check to medicham in general. finally, stall, and by extension mega sableye, is pretty prevalent right now. mega sab is obviously just a huge pain for medicham... don't think this needs more explanation.

i think there is actually some competition for a mega slot for once in this tier: it's really hard to justify mega medicham as a slow breaker with immediate power over mega mawile. what prompted me to make this post actually was that i was using a team with mega medicham, and after the battle i couldn't help but feel aoa mawile would've been much better. unlike medicham, mawile actually provides defensive utility, and it has some variety with its coverage and sets (being able to run SD). also on the mega slot competition point, it does actually feel like you are missing out when you aren't using a mega as versatile as mega alakazam or mega scizor (or even mega latios even though i think it is worse). this is a less direct than picking between mega mawile and mega medicham because these megas fill much different roles than medicham, but the point is that medicham taking up a mega slot means you miss out on the utility these megas can provide. this wasn't an issue months and months ago, but with the prominence of these megas today, i think it's noteworthy enough.

tangrowth should go to A+. this one might be a little out there, but i think tangrowth has become more and more dominant lately. i made a post awhile back about bulu rising basically saying if bulu rises tang should too because tang should be one rank behind bulu (or something idk i forget). at this point, i think they are both about on par with one another. the defensive utility tangrowth provides cannot be understated. it provides a really nice check to ash greninja, tapu koko, and zygarde in one. what's changed is some of the other stuff it checks: the superpower/horn leech sd/bulk up bulu sets and various serperior sets that have risen in usage. furthermore, mons that threaten it like volcarona and hawlucha aren't as common as they once were, and some of the big current threats to it (like heatran) struggle with switching in thanks to tangrowth's great offensive coverage and surprising offensive stats.

some other things that stick out to me: i don't get why mega latios is still A rank. people are better prepped for it than before (stuff like steelz and darkz and toxic on heatran, for example), it faces competition from mega alakazam, and it has plummeted in usage. also, i just don't really get why magnezone is A rank? like i know it's sorta hard to face trappers, but kartana has declined, and sciz and celesteela have sorta chilled a bit (both are extremely consistent though). furthermore, with the recent/semi-recent drops (koko, kartana, clefable, and magearna), it just seems really out of place to me. i think it's a better fit in A- with the more situational mons that still provide a lot of utility / are threats.

also i can get down with regular slowbro and mega heracross rising. reuni too, maybe.

TL;DR: MEGA MEDICHAM -> A-, TANGROWTH -> A+, MEGA LATIOS -> A-, MAGNEZONE -> A- (???)

 

[Deleted User [433215]]

Medi is technically stronger than mawile thanks to base power of moves. And unlike Mawile, Medi brings some speed to the table without needing priority for every turn. It also has TPunch with koko if slowbro, reuni, and sableye are that annoyin. And Zen isn’t always needed anyway as there’s so many resists. Ill agree Mawile is better on the whole. However, Medi isn’t much less a threat than previously and any mon that aint sableye, mew, and reuni are gonna hate takin a hit from it.

 

[HeartfulKitty]

also, i just don't really get why magnezone is A rank? like i know it's sorta hard to face trappers, but kartana has declined, and sciz and celesteela have sorta chilled a bit (both are extremely consistent though). furthermore, with the recent/semi-recent drops (koko, kartana, clefable, and magearna), it just seems really out of place to me. i think it's a better fit in A- with the more situational mons that still provide a lot of utility / are threats.

I agree with your other noms, but I don't think I can agree with a Magnezone drop. Celesteela has been rising a little and Mega Scizor is one of the most consistent threats in the meta, and Magnezone is the best check to both of them. Ferro is still fairly prominent and it gets destroyed, too. And that's not counting the other mons it can put a lot of pressure on (even if it isn't a 100% check) like the Tapus, MMaw, Torn, Pex, Gyara, and even stall mons like Avalugg and Skarm... yes, Kartana has fallen and M-Scizor isn't quite as prominent as it was a month ago, but nothing else has really changed to negatively affect this mon and things like Bulu, MMaw, and certain stall variants becoming more prominent have helped it out, I think. I don't think it fits in A- since mons it can put serious work in appear a whole lot, and it requires no set-up or any major guesswork to work, just moderately careful play.

 

[Thunder Pwoell]

To add on this reply the VR thread isn’t really good for new players since new players are better off using sample teams, usage stats, word of mouth by experienced players who some dont use the VR to make judgements anyways. The VR is good to keep traffic going through the subforum and thats really about it. You show this to new players theyre going to be more confused. Hands on experience gives you a better understanding to learn the game, not the VR.

lol isnt this ironic. Anyway the VR has more impact that people give it credit for. People legit use this as some religious text

 

[Finchinator]

The VR is an important resource for teambuilding reference, fostering productive metagame conversation, and plenty of other things. We should not undersell the potential impact it may have on newer users and therefore I take my position leading it quite seriously when I have the time to. Let's move on from the he-said-she-said type gauging of relevance and shift back to productive discussion on the potential ranks of Pokemon in the metagame.