Resource USUM OU ULTRA Viability Ranking Thread

[N_Mareanie]

B- --> B
BuluTran with Hydreigon is just amazing rn. Being able to take on two of the best 'mons in the tier, AshGren & Tran, is amazing in itself. Reuniclus being an extremely popular pick is also great for this guy (these guys? It has three heads idk). Being able to speed creep stuff like Zygarde, non-Scarf Lele, Kyurem-Black & offensive Lando and punish them with a Draco or Z-Dark Pulse is soo good and these are all just reasons why it should move up.

B- --> B
I really hated this 'mon but I've fallen in love with the Dragonium Rocks set. Is able to punish your regular Defogger in Tornadus-Therian formation, and being able to soft check Heatran always makes a 'mon great. The more defensive set w/ Rocky Helmet Rough Skin has been pretty succesful for me as well, but Dragonium has been a lot better. This is purely because you actually scare out some 'mons and not taking as much Knock Off the first turn is pretty great. Pretty underrated, y'all should try it more cause y'all still be using scarf smh my head

C --> C+
Nothing really changed for this guy but it just feels wrong having this sit with other 'mons like Zeraora, Alolan Ninetales, Mega Gallade & Mega Camerupt. Crawdaunt is clearly a cut above all of the other 'mons in C rn, and ladder has definitely proven why Crawdaunt is so amazing.

C+ --> C
Like Jordy discussed earlier, this thing is mainly only seen on Trick Room and therefor it should drop to the rank where the Trick Room setters themselves (Cresselia & Uxie) are ranked.

OML SECRET NOMS

--> A

--> B

--> C+

--> B-

--> B-

--> C+

--> C

--> C

--> Uber

--> B-

--> C-/C

--> UR

bad post im tired forgive me

 

[Egor]

B- => B: Agree

Increased amount of Glare variants of Zyg and Serp, as well as Ash-Gren being a top-tier threat and rising of stall, are reasons to rise Fini. Misty Terrain is invaluable in beating status spreaders like aforementioned Zyg and Serp, and Taunt+Nature's Madness are really good at beating stall. Definitely B.

B => B+ : Agree

Yeah, this mon is really good. Fucks Reuni, both formes of Bro and resists Dark, helping to beat Ash-Gren. It's also able to bypass burn with pre-mega Guts and beat Will-O-Wisp users like M-Sab. M-Cross also appreciates Clef drop, allowing it to more freely spam Pin Missile. Jolly variants beat Heatran before mega. Great mon rn. It should rise.

 

[planet devastation]

B- > B

Right now Hydreigon is great for checking lots of things in this meta right now such as Heatran, Reuniclus, Blacephalon, and Spikes Ash-Greninja which is extremely good as these 4 pokemon are running wild right now so bring able to take all of them on while providing offensive and defensive presence is valuable. Hydreigon also has a good movepool being able to run Dark Pulse, Earth power, Flash Cannon, and Roost (<----- this is the standard set) but also has access to Draco Meteor, Fire Blast, Flamethower, U-turn ,Taunt, and Defog. Overall Hydreigon deserves B rank for its offensive and defensive presence, decent movepool, checking metagame threats, and its ability to do well vs bulky offense. It can also do well vs some hyper offense and balance teams depending on the match up

 

[Deleted User [433215]]

Altaria-Mega: C- to UR
This mon is so bad rn. It's meant to take hits, spread paras, and defog. It can only check like 5 things. the zards, tran, ash gren, and bulu. for zard y, its paired with weavile a lot now so it's hard to pressure zard as hard. Zard x is p uncommon rn. ash gren is runnin ice beam a lot now since bulu and other grasses are annoyin. Bulu is only scared of body slam paras but besides that, the sp def sd set sets up in its face cause alt is so weak. i didnt mention tran as checked cause z steel is common and alt does really bad vs it. plus, tran checks it aight and gets rocks up. there are many better mons to do this things job, and in a meta where the mega slot means somethin, this thing has nothin to make it worth considerin over other mons. It hasn't been used in tour a long time, if at all, either.

 

[Lil Infant Tylenol]

I would like to nom Mega Mawile to S rank. With huge power and access to a great physical movepool, there is literally nothing that switches into this monster. On top of this, Mawile has a great defensive typing and pretty decent 50/125/95 bulk allows it take hits pretty well. It also has 2 great abilities prior to mega evolving in intimidate and hyper cutter. Only thing holding it back is its speed is not good. However, it can make up for it with sucker punch. Also things that resist sucker dont resist its other coverage options. I think that the recent tournament games have showed us its true potential and there have been numerous examples of Mawile putting in work in those games.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-392129 (ABR vs Mimo, Mawile brick breaks heatran)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-396631 (Soulwind vs Redemption, Mawile threatens stall and takes out the rocker)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-393789 (soulwind vs Rozes)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-392528 (Insult vs blarg, Mawile was able to puch hole through his team. Was able to kill ninja, pex and weaken tran)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-392828 (CaronSmith vs. 1Truelycan, Mawile was able to punch through the team and be a threatening force to true lycan's team)

 

[HeartfulKitty]

View attachment 135563
I would like to nom Mega Mawile to S rank. With huge power and access to a great physical movepool, there is literally nothing that switches into this monster. On top of this, Mawile has a great defensive typing and pretty decent 50/125/95 bulk allows it take hits pretty well. It also has 2 great abilities prior to mega evolving in intimidate and hyper cutter. Only thing holding it back is its speed is not good. However, it can make up for it with sucker punch. Also things that resist sucker dont resist its other coverage options. I think that the recent tournament games have showed us its true potential and there have been numerous examples of Mawile putting in work in those games.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-392129 (ABR vs Mimo, Mawile brick breaks heatran)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-396631 (Soulwind vs Redemption, Mawile threatens stall and takes out the rocker)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-393789 (soulwind vs Rozes)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-392528 (Insult vs blarg, Mawile was able to puch hole through his team. Was able to kill ninja, pex and weaken tran)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-392828 (CaronSmith vs. 1Truelycan, Mawile was able to punch through the team and be a threatening force to true lycan's team)

I understand where you're coming from, but I don't think MMaw deserves an S rank. Although the meta has been more favorable towards it as of recent, with tournament games showing its power, it's still pretty easily destroyed by Tran, Lando-T, and Zygarde, all of whom are absolutely amazing and probably the definitive best mons in the tier. It also competes heavily for a mega slot with Zam and Scizor, who typically have more consistently solid matchups against certain mons that MMaw can struggle with, like Tran or Zygarde. It also lacks much of a defensive presence; its typing is definitely very nice, but as stated before it's pretty easily handled by what are widely considered to be the three best mons in the tier, alongside not liking taking hits from Kartana, M-Latios, Magnezone, M-Medi, and more. It can also barely scratch both Slowbro and its mega without thunder punch, and they've been gaining a fair amount of steam recently.

Overall, although I do think the meta has shifted in favor of MMaw overall, old threats still very much annoy it while some mons that have been picking up steam completely wall it, so I think it's a good fit for A+ (which it very recently rose to) instead of S.

 

[xapx]

View attachment 135563
Mega Mawile nomination

Mawile has good typing, resisting 11 types and weak to 2 types. However, even though it has Sucker Punch to make up for low speed and a wide move pool, I do not think it has what it takes for a S rank Pokemon. Read Finchinator's post on the comparison between the 2 current rank S mons and Zyg (https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...y-ranking-thread.3621329/page-61#post-7899130)

Mega Mawile breaks balance and stall, but it's 4 move syndrome is serious and there are quite a lot of offensive Pokemon capable of taking it down. The 4 guardian deities is easily the best example for that. Tapu Lele cannot take a hit at all, but deals considerable damage with even Psychic under Psychic terrain, and priority doesn't work on Lele when terrain is activated; Tapu Koko resists Knock Off and Sucker Punch, outspeeds, and deals a lot of damage. Tapu Fini is capable of taking any hit from Mega Mawile unboosted. You also have a bunch of Ground-types in the tier, mainly Glisc Zyg LandoT and Chomp. None of these die to +2 Sucket Punch, all outspeed Mega Mawile, and proceed to KO/severely weaken Mega Mawile.
Furthermore, Mega Mawile only has a wide movepool, not a wide range of movesets, the current ones being SD and 4 Attacks. You can run SpDef like ORAS Uber, but missing out on Attack EVs sucks. Look at LandoT and Heatran, which are both S rank. Landorus has a defensive set, Z-move, Suicide Lead, Bulky Scarf, Offensive Scarf, Double Dance, even Choice Band if you want. Heatran can run SpDef sets, Offensive Z-Move with 4 different types of Z crystals, air balloon sets, Choice Scarf, and able to check a shit ton of Pokemon in the A ranks, as well as break certain Stall Pokemon and even made Moltres viable on Stall. These 2 Pokemon force the metagame to adapt to them, such as Shuca Berry Tapu Koko, Zapdos, (there's too much honestly) for Lando; Shed Shell Toxapex, defensive Zygarde, Gliscors running enough speed to outspeed it, etc. for Heatran. Mawile does put pressure on teambuilding as well, but it is checked offensively and somewhat defensively quite easily by a majority of teams, and so my opinion on Mega Mawile is that it should stay at where it is, or go A+ (Is it A now?)

 

[1_TrickPhony]

My thoughts on M-Maw to S

Its not there yet. But its getting very, very close. I definitely see the same upwards trajectory that Heatran saw, being a slow but powerful mon with good defensive utility and the ability to decimate slower balance builds and stall.

As new sets get discovered (like that brick break on ABR from Mimo from the replays above), this thing's unpredictability and power is just growing. Its right up there with Zygarde and Ash-Gren as the best in A+, and seems like almost a no-brainer pick for a ton of teams rn, despite taking up a mega slot. Would not be surprised if this gets ranked S (or S- if it comes back) very soon.

 

[fightnugget]

I've been using mega mawile a lot this summer, and as great as it is it's just not an s mon.

It's a great physical wallbreaker, probably the best in the tier right now, but that's it. It's more instantly rewarding than others, being immediately about as powerful on the phys side as a transformed specs ash-g is on the special, but it's a very prediction reliant mon as well.

I also don't really like the SD set other than for tilting the opponent. At 199 speed you become way too reliant on Sucker Punch to clean, and again with 199 speed Sucker Punch just feels too answerable. With full EV investment on offense, that abysmal HP stat really keeps it from taking more than 1 hit. 4 ATKs is where it's at.

It fits in great with Bulu/Tran/Lando, but what doesn't? Keep it A+ for now, it just got there. I mean it was at A- 2 slates ago wasn't it? Without much in-thread discussion about it at that. Like, clearly people are already noticing thing rips. Let S be.

 

[aerthein]

I feel like M-Lop should definitely rise. Not just because it's unresisted STAB, but mainly because it scares off most of current popular mons, like non-scarf Lando, Zygarde, Heatran, Tyranitar, Gliscor, Greninja, Ferrothorn Chansey, and few more.

 

[baddjordan]

View attachment 135563
I would like to nom Mega Mawile to S rank. With huge power and access to a great physical movepool, there is literally nothing that switches into this monster. On top of this, Mawile has a great defensive typing and pretty decent 50/125/95 bulk allows it take hits pretty well. It also has 2 great abilities prior to mega evolving in intimidate and hyper cutter. Only thing holding it back is its speed is not good. However, it can make up for it with sucker punch. Also things that resist sucker dont resist its other coverage options. I think that the recent tournament games have showed us its true potential and there have been numerous examples of Mawile putting in work in those games.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-392129 (ABR vs Mimo, Mawile brick breaks heatran)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-396631 (Soulwind vs Redemption, Mawile threatens stall and takes out the rocker)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-393789 (soulwind vs Rozes)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-392528 (Insult vs blarg, Mawile was able to puch hole through his team. Was able to kill ninja, pex and weaken tran)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-392828 (CaronSmith vs. 1Truelycan, Mawile was able to punch through the team and be a threatening force to true lycan's team)

I can see an argument for S, perhaps not yet though. More coverage is better than SD atm. I can see Brick Break becoming a staple, all of a sudden Heatran isn't a switch in. The balance meta does suit Mawile, 2hkoing all of Clef/Pex/Celesta/Ferro/Tang. I've been running Play Rough/Tpunch/Sucker/Brick Break, covers everything bar Scizor, Venusaur and Amoongus. Don't like Ice Punch as it doesn't OHKO defensive Lando and Brick Break over Fire Fang for Heatran which is on every team.

 

[Gross Sweep]

The nomination of Mega Mawile is an interesting one to me. Mawile has most certainly been gaining momentum in the metagame, and arguing against it as the best mega in the tier is a difficult task. However, I am not confident in it rising to S, similarly to many others who have already posted their thoughts on the nom. The last time a mon was seriously garnering attention about a rise to S was very recent with Zygarde, and with that discussion came one of the best post in this thread from Finchinator where he broke down the incumbent S rank mons, as well as Zygarde. With the post being so recent I’m going to borrow descriptions of the residing S rank mons from Finch, and just worry about Comparing Mega Mawile to the omnipresent behemoths known as Landorus-T and Heatran currently living in the gated community known as "S Rank".

Heatran provides noteworthy defensive utility to a team while also taking the role of a top-notch offensive threat if given the appropriate Z crystal. The fact of the matter is that Heatran is a Pokemon that the metagame has limited switch-ins to, but it also is a Pokemon that functions as a switch-in to other threats, thus making it more multi-purposed than just about anything else in the metagame. Rarely do you ever see a Pokemon with such an established defensive presence also have a lack of defensive counterplay while not actually being banworthy. While it is true that the defensive prowess of Heatran is maximized on the specially defensive Leftovers variants and the offensive prowess of Heatran is maximized on the offensive Z variants, Heatran is still capable of playing a part on both sides of the spectrum no matter what variant it is. This is largely thanks to a fantastic typing, devastating moves such as Magma Storm, a certain degree of versatility, and other metagame trends revolving around Pokemon that provoke increased Heatran usage (Heatran is a top-notch Clefable answer dating back to ORAS, Heatran can trap Toxapex with the classic Taunt + Magma Storm set, Heatran can take advantage of Ferrothorn coming in and Spiking up, Heatran can be an actual offensive check to Mega Mawile, Heatran can sponge Kartana's STABs to situationally check choice variants or start a sequence against SD variants, Heatran can make quick work of Celesteela, Heatran can check specific variants of Magearna, Heatran can handle most Mega Scizor with ease, Heatran can sponge STAB attacks and HP Fire from Tapu Lele, Heatran can nuke or cripple Tangrowth depending on the set and situation, Heatran can pivot into most Tornadus-Therian, and Heatran can threaten out Tapu Bulu). The fact that the list I just made has over half of the Pokemon in A+ and A rank right now should be pretty alarming, even if Heatran clearly is not a direct counter to all of these things. Hell, to add onto that, metagame trends of the past number of months include Mega Alakazam, Mega Latios, and Gliscor, which are all now seen as significant pieces to the puzzle of fully countering offensive Heatran that every good bulky-offensive and balanced team right now must solve in order to actually be viable. If it is not clear by this point, Heatran is a Pokemon that oftentimes sets the tempo for the metagame around it; the metagame has adapted to it through a number of means, including the Pokemon I just mentioned moving up in usage, but each time that happens, another Heatran set surges in usage (Z-Steel starting in the middle of WCOP this year is a perfect example as it catches Mega Alakazam and Mega Latios) or there still is easily enough appeal to use Heatran quite often. Heatran does not require support and Heatran does not have crippling vulnerabilities that only make it have a limited scope of viability on standard archetypes at all. Heatran is the epitome of a well-rounded S rank Pokemon.

Landorus-Therian is a vastly different case than Heatran, but it also belongs in S rank and is more viable than something like Zygarde (although I must admit it has seen better days and I can see some arguments for A+ in the future if trends continue). Landorus-Therian has a great Choice Scarf set that has been the most common thing to use on it dating back to much earlier in this generation and although Tornadus-T surging has eaten into some of its usage on that front, it is still easily a supportive reason as to why it is ranked where it is. Nothing else provides Speed control with the ability to check as many things as Scarf Landorus-T does and this will hold true for the remainder of the generation without a doubt. Landorus-Therian also is a fine Stealth Rock setter, but the bulky Stealth Rock pivot set is nowhere near as good as it once was and honestly if it was just this set, Landorus-Therian would undoubtedly be ranked much lower. Honestly, both of these variants are nice and show that Landorus-T is a valuable addition to the metagame with significant viability, but what really distinguishes Landorus-T in the metagame is the fact that there is literally near no hard counterplay to the Swords Dance Z variants that sees consistent usage. Sure, you have to pick between Z-Fly and Z-Rock, both of which are great and hit a number of different things, but the fact of the matter is that outside of like random Mega Slowbro, faster Ice Beam Mew with PDef investment, PDef Celesteela that can stay near full and keep rocks off, and the rare PDef Skarmory with Toxic or Counter, there really aren't viable things that I would consider counters to Swords Dance Landorus-T in the metagame. While it is true that this set has never seen as much usage as the Choice Scarf set (which is stupid, but a product of closed-minded building and clinging to trendy sets/structures in teambuilding), that does not take away with how effective it is. There is nothing that remotely as convenient as SR SD Z-Landorus-T to use that can essentially assure getting Stealth Rocks up safely at least once and getting a kill and this is insanely valuable given the state of the metagame (balance oriented with stall seeing more and more usage as each day passes). Landorus-T's Z sets are really unmatched in the metagame and they do not really require much support themselves so much as they provide offensive support for other things and open up games, which oftentimes takes a dedicated breaker or lure. Landorus-T does not run the metagame as much as it once did when it saw ~70% usage, but it is still an S rank Pokemon and it has a ridiculous offensive presence that is oftentimes forgotten or simply underestimated.

With these descriptions providing a good baseline of what a S rank Pokemon should look like let's begin our dissection of M-Mawile. Mawile has unquestionable power. It has no real switch ins when you factor in all potential sets such as SD 3 attacks, AOA, and Sub SD. However, even with differing set options I think something really hurting Mawile's bid to S is diversity. by that I mean even though a move or two might change from game to game when facing an opposing Mawile it is still very clear what that mon wants to do - which is punch holes in the opposing team. Now Mawile fills this breaker role extremely well, it is just a tad one dimensional for an S ranked mon since aside from the rarer Sub option counterplay remains relatively constant since none of the sets really have reliable switch ins. Another issue with M-Mawile is the lack of defensive capabilities. yes it has good typing with Steel Fairy, but Mawile really can't be relied on to sponge hits throughout a game. Not saying a mon has to be defensive to claim a spot in the S rank. But with a speed of 50, and priority in Sucker Punch which can be played around a bit, the need for higher defensive capabilities feels warranted for a mon looking to climb up to S. This lack of defensive capabilities also starts to hurt Mawile as a stand alone threat as you start to require more and more teammate support as Mawile demands either an additional steel or something like SpDef Bulu to help against psychic spam since Mawile while a Steel type should not be a teams first switch in versus threats like Specs Lele. I will note similarly to my point on diversity this isn't a huge issue, it's just another chink in the Mawile to S rank argument. A third fault in Mawile is offensive checks not being super difficult to find. With a base speed of 50 Mawile is susceptible to being revenge killed somewhat easily by top tier threats like the reigning S ranked mons Landorus-T and Heatran among several others. Yes Sucker Punch can aid in this issue, but the amount of chip needed to get things in Sucker range makes this a valid concern in my eyes.

Those are 3 of the biggest reasons to keep Mawile out of S ranked that initially come to my mind. With that said though I would like to restate that Mawile is extremely volatile, and almost guaranteed a kill whenever you get it in the game safely vs something that doesn't threaten it offensively to much (or with something like a fast will-o-wisp). However, I feel like it has enough keeping it down to warrant it staying in A+, where it unquestionably belongs right now. Also there is that whole uses up your mega stone argument, but I don't really give that much water as most would be happy to use their mega stone on Mawile. I think I've covered everything I wanted to at the moment, so I'm going to wrap this up before I drone on any longer.

 

[MANNAT]

Enough of this mawile discussion the mons great but it isn’t S considering the fact that people are considering dropping fucking landorus t out of the rank.

A mon that is criminally underrated atm is Garchomp. After using a slew of Garchomp teams from imsosorrylol and making a few of my own inspired from those, I’ve realized just how much of a versatile and effective mon this thing can be and am nomming it to rise to A- rank.

As an offensive SR user, garchomp is one of the few SR users that blows Defog Torn-T out of the park and can basically ensure the hazards stay up for the time being as well as being able to blow past tang, provide an actually solid offensive check for Heatran, and punish voltturn cores with its typing in conjunction with rough skin. Additionally, it’s speed tier is an absolute boon, being able to snipe stuff like Tapu Lele and Kyurem-B without having to risk a potential speed tie as well as threatening out base 100 breakers like Zardy and Medicham that are fairly popular right now.

On the more defensive side of things, Garchomp can go for a complete voltturn punishing approach with rocky helmet that prevents mons like scarf lando and gren from mindlessly clucking uturn, set rocks, and provide a pretty consistent answer for physically offensive threats like Kartana, Mega Scizor, and Hawlucha that are normally very irritating for bulky offense to deal with. Alternatively, Garchomp can go for a specially defensive leftovers set with roar that can be used on hazard stack to shuffle opposing teams, reliably check heatran, and other similar roles.

Normally it isn’t a very good idea to just run over a mons features and sets like this in a VR nom, but Garchomp frankly hasn’t been explored very much at all until recently due to its scarf set falling out of favor and people have just now realized the insanely potential this mon has. The (fairly) recent rise of slower breaking cores and teams that tend to be pretty slow in general is very beneficial for the effectiveness of the offensive SD set as that set can just blow past torn and keep pressure against those teams constantly. Additionally, the newly adapting bulky offense structures with the increased usage of glues like tangrowth that synergize well with garchomp and much lower usage of landorus-t has made Garchomp significantly easier to fit onto teams and easier to use in general. Overall, garchomp is a prolific offensive and defensive set that’s very well suited to the current metagame and deserves to move up to A- rank. I know that multiple rank jumps are usually frowned upon, but garchomp is just so fucking good atm that I think it more than deserves the rise.

After reading Srn's post, I also want to make a Magearna nom of my own, but for different reasons. Magearna has cemented its place as a top tier threat and this has been shown between OLT, Opening STour weekend, and SSD. Therefore, I'm going to nom Magearna for A+ rank.

As of late, people have started to use Fleur Focus SG Gear to blow through standard BO and Balance archetypes instead of the otherwise underwhelming BoltBeam set, and it has had devastating results. CM just completely runs through most teams that lack Toxapex and Thunderbolt can even break through Toxapex teams given entry hazard support. Z Fleur Cannon is incredibly strong and can blow past most neutral targets barring the bulkiest special blanket checks in the tier and can even do absurd things like OHKO Magnezone at +1. On the defensive side of things, AV has seen an uptick of usage to account for the increased usage of Mega Alakazam and the continued potency of the tier's most potent special breakers such as Ash Greninja and Tapu Lele, fitting snugly onto Voltturn Bulky Offense teams that need a check to all of these mons. Stall teams that struggle with the always annoying Tapu Lele have also started to run a SpDef set to deal with a lot of threats that normally blow past Stall while providing a psuedo-unaware user with Heart Swap. Finally, the recent discovery of the CM Painsplit has allowed Magearna to act as a stallbreaker that can soft check a lot of the stuff that it does otherwise while simultaneously dismantling the stall teams that seem to be flooding the tier trying to get free wins at the moment. Overall, Magearna is a versatile offensive and defensive threat that can fit on a variety of archetypes ranging from full HO to full stall and everything in between and more than deserving of A+ rank, even pushing the boundaries of S (although I wouldn't place Magearna at S just yet)

Misc Thoughts: (Mega) Gyara should move down again since OLT laddering bullshit ended, MLatios could move down since one of the major losers in the zam meta (altho draco sets r still good), Reuni/Volc should move up because Acid Armor and Roost respectively are really strong sets atm that are blowing past a lot of teams, etc.

 

[Thunder Pwoell]

Ive been thinking - is it possible to establish a sort of split system? Like stuff that works in high ladder often does not work on the rest of the ladder. and like tour teams usually are garbage on ladder. just a thought if its trash lmk

 

[blank]

i don't think the two are so vastly different that we should have separate rankings / systems. ladder just happens to be a lot of consecutive games, meaning things that can just autowin certain MUs ("cheese") are more prevalent because they give a quick way to rank up / can be easier to pilot for a lot of games in a row where stamina might come into play (not a jab). the same can be seen during individual smogon tours where players play a bunch of games in a row: stall, screens offenses, rains, etc. are all fairly common. however, it's also clear that ladder can seriously influence tour: a lot of pokemon that gained prominence during the ladder phase of OLT are still being used in tours. stall and screens offenses in particular are pretty great right now and it seems like they're getting more usage in tours than previously (especially stall)... this seems largely due to OLT.

as for a lot of tour teams being garbage on ladder: many of them are made / picked while preparing for a specific player, meaning they might be blatantly weak to something the opposing player rarely uses.

personally, i think the rankings do a great job of representing things seen more frequently in tournaments, things seen more frequently on ladder, and things seen frequently in both environments. i think virtually every pokemon in the A and A+ ranks, for example, is about equally good on ladder and in tours, largely due to how consistent, splashable, and/or extremely threatening these mons can be. mega mawile and zygarde are great examples of pokemon that absolutely flourish as threats in both. mega mawile (in general) and zygarde (specific sets like glare) gained significant traction due to ladder (OLT), and this can be seen in a bunch of other pokemon that aren't just "cheese."

on another note, while i am down for a garchomp rise (as mentioned in my previous post), i think A- is overselling it a bit. B+ would be good though.

 

[Guilhew]

I think Weavile would be in A-, the common switch-ins to Weavile like Clefable or Toxapex are losing usage, and Tapu bulu is a very common pokemon in this metagame, and finally, is a fast pokemon, thing that is very good in this metagame

 

[Srn]

Magearna back up from A-->A+

This was dropped all the way back in july, and 2 months later, I honestly think gear has continued to prove itself relevant once again. The main reason that the drop was cited in the first place was that SG sets were falling off and AV was never worthy of A+ anyway.
While that's true and it still is to an extent, we certainly dont see much SG 3 attack sets roaming around anymore, I think that Magearna has managed to re-establish itself with sets like OTR and CM+Pain Split and maintained a constant and threatening presence with double dance sets on Screens teams and AV on Bulky Offense.

I obviously dont need to go into its stellar bulk, excellent typing, huge movepool, or variety of options ranging from about 4 different Z-moves to leftovers, scarf, and specs sets that are viable, but I think that magearna is a step above its A rank peers like mega medi, mega latios, and clefable right now, and I think that the impressive #2 usage on ladder, #4 usage on stour, and slightly less impressive #11 usage on OLT really speaks volumes.

So yeah magearna's still obnoxious throw this bakugan back up to A+ pls

 

[~erza]

From C to C+:

I feel like Alolan Muk is really overlooked, just like Hydreigon, it is able to wall Acid Armor Reuniclus even when Toxic Spikes are up, and even better, it can Pursuit-trap it to get some chip while absorbing T.Spikes.
It can also switch into the more common than ever Mega Alakazam to Pursuit it to the death. And the rise of bulky grasses is only better for Alolan-Muk, being able to threaten them with a nice PJab, but they'll switch out, that's where Poison Touch is really good, it can basically try to Pursuit a Tapu Bulu or a Tangrowth on their switch to get a regular poison, which can cripple them badly. And mons such as Mawile and Magearna (which I agree with a rise btw) aren't even safe when switching into Muk due to a possible Fire Punch. I also tested a Focus Punch variant to punish Heatran switch-ins and it work pretty well, even tho Fire Punch is preferred. And Toxapex losing some usage is always good for this mon. With all these factors, I think Muk should rise.

TL;DR: Alolan Muk walls Acid Armor Reuniclus and chip it, walls Mega-Zam and kill it with pursuit, rises of bulky grasses is good for it, toxapex losing usage is good too.

 

[Deleted User [433215]]

Ill state my thoughts on some of these discussion points:

Mawile to S: no (but a hestitant one)
Sorry, its powerful af rn but it dont got the ability to be on every team like tran or lando. Altho ill probs change my mind soon when i get smashed by it in stour again.

Garchomp to A-: Agree
This thing’s rocks SD set is amazing as is its helmet set. A- is good for it.

Magearna to A+: disagree but id agree with A
Idt its on the level of torn but i see it as good as koko and kart.

 

[Guard]

Latios-Mega from A to A-

Honestly, this thing is so very much outclassed (and walled ironically enough) by Zam it almost feels like an opportunity cost. Back in the days, it used to be a good check to Heatran, however, Zam's rise from B+ to A+ was not without consequences as Steelium Z rocketed in usage and Toxic became even more popular than it was; obviously, two things Latios does not like facing as a Corkscrew Crash just renders it useless and Toxic + Magma Storm damage (plus predicting the Taunt on the Roost) chips away at it dangerously quickly.

Since Zam just completely outclasses it on the Heatran-checking department and the mega-slot is a lot more competitive right now with Mawile, Zam and Scizor, it clearly has lost a fair bit of its shine and is just in a very awkward position right now. Definitely not toe to toe to Mage, Koko, Steela, Tang or Kartana (or honestly everything in A right now).

Mawile-Mega from A+ to S

Obvious no. Sure it has great power, a great typing and great abilities but it's predictable and has a fairly negative match up against OU's king and Lando. It can catch them off guard, but forgoing more important coverage means it finds itself either Spikes bait for Ferrothorn, T-Spikes/Scald bait for Toxapex, setup bait for Scizor or unable to revenge kill. Glares running wild doesn't help it that much either and it has a horrible match up against the ever-surging Veil/Screens Offense. A great Pokemon indeed and that is why it's ranked A+ but definitely not metagame-defining.

Other Opinions

Landorus-T from S to A+
Obvious disagree. Still a metagame-defining force. People are also finally starting to give credit to Z-sets.

Tornadus-T from A+ to A
Disagree, vast role compression, good check to a lot of threatening stuff (e.g. Lando, Kartana, Medi, Pinsir) with tons of offensive presence. Also, nemesis Koko is on the decline which is really really good for it.

Magearna from A to A+
Disagree, I can't imagine it to be anything more than A right now and a good deal of the reason is allowing Heatran to freely through off Magma Storms and allowing Zygarde to boost/TArrows/Glare or whatever it is doing right now. Offensive sets are quite good but not better that Kartana/ Lele for example and frustatingly frail to be honest.

Medicham-Mega from A to A-
Disagree, although the rise of Reuniclus is really hurting this thing, it has enough other targets and underestimating its power and the amount of pressure it puts on the opposing team is a grave sin.

Gliscor from A- to A
Disagree, a very shaky Heatran check, suffers from severe 4MSS and outclassed by Lando mostly. Still a good mon altogether but A would be overselling it.

Reuniclus from A- to A
Agree. AA-sets put an enormous amount of pressure to remove T-spikes, which is highly exploitable and may I also add that they are an almost counter to Zygarde? The only Zygarde-set capable of beating it is Dragon Tail. Is unbreakable within a few turns and is generally the bitchiest bitch you'll ever face in a battle (except maybe Vivillon in AG). Definitely on par with the likes of Clefable and Koko.

Garchomp from B- to A-
Umm, too much of a strech. B/B+ is perfectly fine though. Also, takes up a much valued Z-spot just for ensuring Rocks. Are you sure Heatran doesn't do that better?

 

[Srn]

View attachment 136543 Latios-Mega from A to A-

Honestly, this thing is so very much outclassed (and walled ironically enough) by Zam it almost feels like an opportunity cost. Back in the days, it used to be a good check to Heatran, however, Zam's rise from B+ to A+ was not without consequences as Steelium Z rocketed in usage and Toxic became even more popular than it was; obviously, two things Latios does not like facing as a Corkscrew Crash just renders it useless and Toxic + Magma Storm damage (plus predicting the Taunt on the Roost) chips away at it dangerously quickly.

Since Zam just completely outclasses it on the Heatran-checking department and the mega-slot is a lot more competitive right now with Mawile, Zam and Scizor, it clearly has lost a fair bit of its shine and is just in a very awkward position right now. Definitely not toe to toe to Mage, Koko, Steela, Tang or Kartana (or honestly everything in A right now).

View attachment 136545 Mawile-Mega from A+ to S

Obvious no. Sure it has great power, a great typing and great abilities but it's predictable and has a fairly negative match up against OU's king and Lando. It can catch them off guard, but forgoing more important coverage means it finds itself either Spikes bait for Ferrothorn, T-Spikes/Scald bait for Toxapex, setup bait for Scizor or unable to revenge kill. Glares running wild doesn't help it that much either and it has a horrible match up against the ever-surging Veil/Screens Offense. A great Pokemon indeed and that is why it's ranked A+ but definitely not metagame-defining.

Other Opinions

Landorus-T from S to A+
Obvious disagree. Still a metagame-defining force. People are also finally starting to give credit to Z-sets.

Tornadus-T from A+ to A
Disagree, vast role compression, good check to a lot of threatening stuff (e.g. Lando, Kartana, Medi, Pinsir) with tons of offensive presence. Also, nemesis Koko is on the decline which is really really good for it.

Magearna from A to A+
Disagree, I can't imagine it to be anything more than A right now and a good deal of the reason is allowing Heatran to freely through off Magma Storms and allowing Zygarde to boost/TArrows/Glare or whatever it is doing right now. Offensive sets are quite good but not better that Kartana/ Lele for example and frustatingly frail to be honest.

Medicham-Mega from A to A-
Disagree, although the rise of Reuniclus is really hurting this thing, it has enough other targets and underestimating its power and the amount of pressure it puts on the opposing team is a grave sin.

Gliscor from A- to A
Disagree, a very shaky Heatran check, suffers from severe 4MSS and outclassed by Lando mostly. Still a good mon altogether but A would be overselling it.

Reuniclus from A- to A
Agree. AA-sets put an enormous amount of pressure to remove T-spikes, which is highly exploitable and may I also add that they are an almost counter to Zygarde? The only Zygarde-set capable of beating it is Dragon Tail. Is unbreakable within a few turns and is generally the bitchiest bitch you'll ever face in a battle (except maybe Vivillon in AG). Definitely on par with the likes of Clefable and Koko.

Garchomp from B- to A-
Umm, too much of a strech. B/B+ is perfectly fine though. Also, takes up a much valued Z-spot just for ensuring Rocks. Are you sure Heatran doesn't do that better?

Hi i have a few thoughts on all of that shit

thoughts on mega latios+mzam

I agree that mega latios has definitely fallen off given that heatran sets have adapted and mawile gives more competition for the mega slot, but I'm a little confused when you repeatedly say that zam totally outclasses it. Zam doesn't repeatedly pivot into water, grass, fire, and electric attacks, Zam can't 2hko av mag like mlatios can with eq, and zam isn't a check to lando-t, gliscor, and zygarde, and zam doesn't revenge kill mega pinsir. You say zam walls mlatios, but draco was never not an option over ice beam, and that has a 56.3% chance to kill after rocks.

I'm ultimately not opposed to an A- drop because I agree that its not really on par with mons like koko and tangrowth anymore, given the influx of mega mawile and steelz / toxic heatran sets, but i disagree with the reasons you've stated.

Honestly, for the very same reasons, I can see megazam dropping from A+ --> A. Mega mawile forces it out with a sucker punch OHKO, and zam isn't really a great heatran check anymore either, as it is OHKOd by steelz and struggles with toxic+protect bullshit from sdef heatrans. That's not to say that psychic spam isn't effective, because zam+lele still form a dangerous and solid core, but Megazam is not the independent, strong, and fast mon it once was, especially since timid has fallen back in favor (on upper ladder at least). You can still just mega on the scarf lanT, trace the intimidate, and recover to not be rk'd provided u were healthy at the start, but now you have to watch out for mega mawile's sucker punches too. To me, at least, mega zam no longer feels like the team support, it feels like it needs the team support.

On reuniclus

Reuniclus should absolutely not be going up to A, that is a pokemon that needs extensive team support and even then its honestly a little match-up based, it saw success on the ladder because it was anti-meta but Reuniclus still has a ton of crap that it needs dealt with before it can start slowly setting up and risking crits before it kills. Keeping up the tspikes for dark types is its own battle, but that doesn't even address a lot of them like hydreigon, bisharp, alolan muk, Mega sableye which beats every tspike setter and reuni cant touch, and gyarados which can avoid the tspikes in base form and then mega vs you (more situational obviously but its another headache for sure). More over, stronger steel types like Mega Mawile, Kartana, rare SD excadrills, and SD megazors with knock are very hard for reuni to overcome. It's true that kart is 2hkod by psychic, but in a 1v1 situation, if Kart SDs at the same rate as Reuni AAs, then a +6 sacred sword will cleanly 2hko bc that move ignores enemy buffs, and if you happen to lag behind in AA to recover or attack, then you'll die to z-move.
That mon has to deal with a lot of headaches and only fits on very specific team archetypes, and it really shouldn't be ranked with mons like koko that can fit on almost any non-stall team and run 5 different viable sets.

on magearna

I think your logic for Magearna not rising is more or less that it gives heatran and zygarde free turns, and while they do threaten magearna out, it is by no means some kind of free switch-in. Heatran has to watch out for Focus blast, offensive variants will straight up lose if they come in on sg and stay in on z-focus blast. Zygarde wont ohko with tarrows unless its choice banded and will die to a single fleur cannon from any set, and almost every gear set carries either fleur or ice beam which will ohko zygarde. (only one i can think of that doesnt is z-flash cannon/tbolt/focus, and even that will do 76-90 with z-move).

but did you really just say magearna was frustratingly frail? This is a pokemon with steel/fairy typing and 80/115/115 defenses and you said its FRAIL? It's easy to wear down, and that's one thing, but saying magearna is frail is ridiculous.

on garchomp

And yes, I'm sure that heatran doesn't "just do that better," the SR SD z-outrage eq garchomp set does a lot that z-move rocks tran does not. Z-move rocks tran doesn't force out/beat mega medi, kyu-b, tapu lele, victini, or rotom-w at +2, and it does not pressure mons like av tang, clefable, landorus-t, and torn-t for its teammates.
They just do totally different things, i'm confused as to where you got the idea that one replaces the other or something, because thats the feeling I got when i read "Are you sure Heatran doesn't do that better?"

I think the real competition would be from a set like SD SR z-edge eq lando-t, where you give up the speed tier and heatran check but you're not hard walled by bulu and celesteela and your overall breaking power is much higher; this set literally 6-0s the stall in team samples when unaware clef is weakened a little, garchomp has to muscle through avalugg.

on mega mawile

I agree that mmaw shouldn't be S rank, but not for the reasons you give. You did mention that "it can catch them off guard," but its honestly not a game of pick and choose between what you said. The All-out attacker set can run both thunder punch and fire fang to ohko ferro/mzor and 2hko pex and not be set up bait for any of what you mentioned, IF thats what your team wants. Hell, you can just SD up to +4 on ferrothorn and then OHKO it with play rough, and SD sets with tpunch will blow pex up too.

The reason I think mmaw shouldn't be S rank is because it needs a LOT of team support to really handle offense. Nothing really walls it, and thats amazing, but keeping up rocks+spikes to get mons like koko, heatran, ash gren, lando-t, zygarde, garchomp, and others into sucker punch range in the first place requires a ton of team support on a very specific team build, even ignoring the prediction needed sometimes when heatran might wisp, koko might roost to live the sucker, ash gren might shuriken to outpace the sucker and then 2hko you, zygarde might glare, espeed, or sub to avoid the sucker, etc. And that's ignoring the sturdier dark resists like hydreigon which can revenge kill weakened mmaw with earth power, or if its specs just OHKO, offensive magearna that are z-steel, electric, or fight can just blow the z and kill you while being faster and resisting sucker, mega ttar or cb ttar with coverage for steel types will rk you, sub z-move magnezone and sub z-move blacephalon can play around your sucker punch, and tapu lele can revenge kill weakened mmaw and shut down your sucker punch entirely.

essentially, there's a lot of potential roadblocks that prevents SD mmaw from sweeping, and while this doesn't devalue the usefulness of sucker on mmaw as a whole, and it should stay A+ on the merits being a wallbreaker with good typing/bulk mainly.

 

[Guard]

Hi i have a few thoughts on all of that shit

thoughts on mega latios+mzam

I agree that mega latios has definitely fallen off given that heatran sets have adapted and mawile gives more competition for the mega slot, but I'm a little confused when you repeatedly say that zam totally outclasses it. Zam doesn't repeatedly pivot into water, grass, fire, and electric attacks, Zam can't 2hko av mag like mlatios can with eq, and zam isn't a check to lando-t, gliscor, and zygarde, and zam doesn't revenge kill mega pinsir. You say zam walls mlatios, but draco was never not an option over ice beam, and that has a 56.3% chance to kill after rocks.

I'm ultimately not opposed to an A- drop because I agree that its not really on par with mons like koko and tangrowth anymore, given the influx of mega mawile and steelz / toxic heatran sets, but i disagree with the reasons you've stated.

Honestly, for the very same reasons, I can see megazam dropping from A+ --> A. Mega mawile forces it out with a sucker punch OHKO, and zam isn't really a great heatran check anymore either, as it is OHKOd by steelz and struggles with toxic+protect bullshit from sdef heatrans. That's not to say that psychic spam isn't effective, because zam+lele still form a dangerous and solid core, but Megazam is not the independent, strong, and fast mon it once was, especially since timid has fallen back in favor (on upper ladder at least). You can still just mega on the scarf lanT, trace the intimidate, and recover to not be rk'd provided u were healthy at the start, but now you have to watch out for mega mawile's sucker punches too. To me, at least, mega zam no longer feels like the team support, it feels like it needs the team support.

On reuniclus

Reuniclus should absolutely not be going up to A, that is a pokemon that needs extensive team support and even then its honestly a little match-up based, it saw success on the ladder because it was anti-meta but Reuniclus still has a ton of crap that it needs dealt with before it can start slowly setting up and risking crits before it kills. Keeping up the tspikes for dark types is its own battle, but that doesn't even address a lot of them like hydreigon, bisharp, alolan muk, Mega sableye which beats every tspike setter and reuni cant touch, and gyarados which can avoid the tspikes in base form and then mega vs you (more situational obviously but its another headache for sure). More over, stronger steel types like Mega Mawile, Kartana, rare SD excadrills, and SD megazors with knock are very hard for reuni to overcome. It's true that kart is 2hkod by psychic, but in a 1v1 situation, if Kart SDs at the same rate as Reuni AAs, then a +6 sacred sword will cleanly 2hko bc that move ignores enemy buffs, and if you happen to lag behind in AA to recover or attack, then you'll die to z-move.
That mon has to deal with a lot of headaches and only fits on very specific team archetypes, and it really shouldn't be ranked with mons like koko that can fit on almost any non-stall team and run 5 different viable sets.

on magearna

I think your logic for Magearna not rising is more or less that it gives heatran and zygarde free turns, and while they do threaten magearna out, it is by no means some kind of free switch-in. Heatran has to watch out for Focus blast, offensive variants will straight up lose if they come in on sg and stay in on z-focus blast. Zygarde wont ohko with tarrows unless its choice banded and will die to a single fleur cannon from any set, and almost every gear set carries either fleur or ice beam which will ohko zygarde. (only one i can think of that doesnt is z-flash cannon/tbolt/focus, and even that will do 76-90 with z-move).

but did you really just say magearna was frustratingly frail? This is a pokemon with steel/fairy typing and 80/115/115 defenses and you said its FRAIL? It's easy to wear down, and that's one thing, but saying magearna is frail is ridiculous.

on garchomp

And yes, I'm sure that heatran doesn't "just do that better," the SR SD z-outrage eq garchomp set does a lot that z-move rocks tran does not. Z-move rocks tran doesn't force out/beat mega medi, kyu-b, tapu lele, victini, or rotom-w at +2, and it does not pressure mons like av tang, clefable, landorus-t, and torn-t for its teammates.
They just do totally different things, i'm confused as to where you got the idea that one replaces the other or something, because thats the feeling I got when i read "Are you sure Heatran doesn't do that better?"

I think the real competition would be from a set like SD SR z-edge eq lando-t, where you give up the speed tier and heatran check but you're not hard walled by bulu and celesteela and your overall breaking power is much higher; this set literally 6-0s the stall in team samples when unaware clef is weakened a little, garchomp has to muscle through avalugg.

on mega mawile

I agree that mmaw shouldn't be S rank, but not for the reasons you give. You did mention that "it can catch them off guard," but its honestly not a game of pick and choose between what you said. The All-out attacker set can run both thunder punch and fire fang to ohko ferro/mzor and 2hko pex and not be set up bait for any of what you mentioned, IF thats what your team wants. Hell, you can just SD up to +4 on ferrothorn and then OHKO it with play rough, and SD sets with tpunch will blow pex up too.

The reason I think mmaw shouldn't be S rank is because it needs a LOT of team support to really handle offense. Nothing really walls it, and thats amazing, but keeping up rocks+spikes to get mons like koko, heatran, ash gren, lando-t, zygarde, garchomp, and others into sucker punch range in the first place requires a ton of team support on a very specific team build, even ignoring the prediction needed sometimes when heatran might wisp, koko might roost to live the sucker, ash gren might shuriken to outpace the sucker and then 2hko you, zygarde might glare, espeed, or sub to avoid the sucker, etc. And that's ignoring the sturdier dark resists like hydreigon which can revenge kill weakened mmaw with earth power, or if its specs just OHKO, offensive magearna that are z-steel, electric, or fight can just blow the z and kill you while being faster and resisting sucker, mega ttar or cb ttar with coverage for steel types will rk you, sub z-move magnezone and sub z-move blacephalon can play around your sucker punch, and tapu lele can revenge kill weakened mmaw and shut down your sucker punch entirely.

essentially, there's a lot of potential roadblocks that prevents SD mmaw from sweeping, and while this doesn't devalue the usefulness of sucker on mmaw as a whole, and it should stay A+ on the merits being a wallbreaker with good typing/bulk mainly.

I have a few thoughts too about the shit you thought about my shit.

Alakazam

Alakazam outclasses Latios on the Heatran-checking department only and walls its standard set. Sure you can use Latios for checking shit like Koko and Bulu but honestly, just use Latias for that. The main niche Latios had over Latias was immediately threatening Heatran. Sure, it threatens Mage and Tyranitar too, but Vest-Mage doesn't have much traction anymore and is honestly chipped down way too fast in the current metagame and Tyranitar isn't exactly on its best either with basically every Lele running Fightinium Z and Zam running rampant.

Now that Heatran has found ways to annihilate Latios, it doesn't have that niche anymore to an extent. Sure, those ways are the same ways that defeat Zam too, but losing a mon meant to "repeatedly pivot into water, grass, fire, and electric attacks, 2hko av mag with eq, check lando-t, gliscor, and zygarde, and revenge kill mega pinsir" as you say it, is a much bigger problem for a team than losing a mon that is meant to break other mons and is paired with other breakers anyway.

Oh and obviously don't drop Zam in this meta full of bulky shit that gets wrecked by it. Like don't even...

Reuniclus

I see where you are coming from and I am not gonna die if it doesn't rise or something. Though Reuni is still a fucking disgusting piece of shit and it's honestly a lot less matchup based than you make it out to be (like its not gonna be a sitting duck or something if it can't boost, it can still status-absorb and check a plethora of absurdly powerful forces (e.g. Scarf Lando, non-Shadow Ball Zam, Zygarde, Steela, Lati@s-mega, Medi, Hawlucha). But yeah, it can stay in A- if deemed appropriate.

Magearna

Sure, sure, I get the fact Zyg and Tran don't get free switches, I never said so lol. The prob is that either of these 2 are on every team right now and are so influencing and defining that it just isn't a good idea to use defensive Magearna. And offensive Magearna is frustratingly frail. Not frailty based on the actual meaning of the word but frail in the sense that it's frail for a Magearna, for a mon that is meant to be bulky. I guess I should have said it gets chipped too fast; that is indeed better wording. The main reason I oppose Magearna rising though is because I don't see any magic in its offensive sets that warrants a ranking higher than Kartana/Lele/Koko. Not because of Zyg/Tran.

Garchomp

"I'm confused as to where you got the idea that one replaces the other or something, because thats the feeling I got when i read "Are you sure Heatran doesn't do that better?"

Er, they both use Z-moves. You can only use one Z-move in a battle. Is it really that weird I compare them? Btw, Garchomp uses it's Z-move to ensure SR stays up and for breaking stuff. If the idea of replacing each other repels you so much, how different is the reason for Heatran to use a Z-crystal to you then? Lol

"it does not pressure mons like av tang, clefable, landorus-t, and torn-t for its teammates"
Um, what? WHAT? WHAT?

Mawile-Mega

I was just adding some information, since this topic has been discussed already and the points you named were already mentioned, so why repeat them? I thought I'd just shed some light on the slight 4MSS it has since that was unmentioned.

Wait lol this is not me attacking anyone alright? I'm just playfully punching...Just sayin

 

[Srn]

I have a few thoughts too about the shit you thought about my shit.

Alakazam

Alakazam outclasses Latios on the Heatran-checking department only and walls its standard set. Sure you can use Latios for checking shit like Koko and Bulu but honestly, just use Latias for that. The main niche Latios had over Latias was immediately threatening Heatran. Sure, it threatens Mage and Tyranitar too, but Vest-Mage doesn't have much traction anymore and is honestly chipped down way too fast in the current metagame and Tyranitar isn't exactly on its best either with basically every Lele running Fightinium Z and Zam running rampant.

Now that Heatran has found ways to annihilate Latios, it doesn't have that niche anymore to an extent. Sure, those ways are the same ways that defeat Zam too, but losing a mon meant to "repeatedly pivot into water, grass, fire, and electric attacks, 2hko av mag with eq, check lando-t, gliscor, and zygarde, and revenge kill mega pinsir" as you say it, is a much bigger problem for a team than losing a mon that is meant to break other mons and is paired with other breakers anyway.

Oh and obviously don't drop Zam in this meta full of bulky shit that gets wrecked by it. Like don't even...

Reuniclus

I see where you are coming from and I am not gonna die if it doesn't rise or something. Though Reuni is still a fucking disgusting piece of shit and it's honestly a lot less matchup based than you make it out to be (like its not gonna be a sitting duck or something if it can't boost, it can still status-absorb and check a plethora of absurdly powerful forces (e.g. Scarf Lando, non-Shadow Ball Zam, Zygarde, Steela, Lati@s-mega, Medi, Hawlucha). But yeah, it can stay in A- if deemed appropriate.

Magearna

Sure, sure, I get the fact Zyg and Tran don't get free switches, I never said so lol. The prob is that either of these 2 are on every team right now and are so influencing and defining that it just isn't a good idea to use defensive Magearna. And offensive Magearna is frustratingly frail. Not frailty based on the actual meaning of the word but frail in the sense that it's frail for a Magearna, for a mon that is meant to be bulky. I guess I should have said it gets chipped too fast; that is indeed better wording. The main reason I oppose Magearna rising though is because I don't see any magic in its offensive sets that warrants a ranking higher than Kartana/Lele/Koko. Not because of Zyg/Tran.

Garchomp

"I'm confused as to where you got the idea that one replaces the other or something, because thats the feeling I got when i read "Are you sure Heatran doesn't do that better?"

Er, they both use Z-moves. You can only use one Z-move in a battle. Is it really that weird I compare them? Btw, Garchomp uses it's Z-move to ensure SR stays up and for breaking stuff. If the idea of replacing each other repels you so much, how different is the reason for Heatran to use a Z-crystal to you then? Lol

"it does not pressure mons like av tang, clefable, landorus-t, and torn-t for its teammates"
Um, what? WHAT? WHAT?

Mawile-Mega

I was just adding some information, since this topic has been discussed already and the points you named were already mentioned, so why repeat them? I thought I'd just shed some light on the slight 4MSS it has since that was unmentioned.

Thanks for the swift and chill reply, let the shit continue

Zam

I still dont understand how zam "outclasses" mega latios in walling heatran. They both wall heatran just fine, i wouldn't really say one does a better job than the other. If anything, mega latios does it better because it can just OHKO heatran with a single earthquake whereas zam, while immune to magma, has to hit 1-2 focus blasts and may take any number of earth powers, toxics, etc in the meanwhile.

And the main niche latios has over latias is immediately threatening anything lol. Mega latias is not doing jack shit for damage if its not using a super effective move, and its not really killing anything unless its 4x. The standard 3 attacks+roost mega latias set, ice beam/surf/hp fire/roost, for example, is walled by mega alakazam, whereas mega latios is not.

I'm also not sure what you meant by that second paragraph. Isn't it a good thing that mega latios is that important to a team, and that much more vital to this hypothetical team than zam is? Sure, you lose more if you lose mlatios, but it doesn't make sense to me to punish mega latios for being important and useful to a team.

AV mage being chipped is fine, Bulky offense is eventually going to get chipped. Whats important is that bulky offense do more damage to the opposing team before the glue holding their own team together breaks apart, and mons like fini and defensive lando-t also fit this description. At the end of the day, av magearna still checks an absurd number of incredibly powerful pokemon all while not being passive and giving slow volturns, and as a set it has not really ever declined in usefulness from the start of the meta, people just tend to overstate how bad being chipped is.

Reuni

Yeah, you're right, i didn't really mention how it checks some shit even if it can't win. my b
despite that its not really a flexible wincon so its not A tier at all.

Magearna

I really can't agree with that logic. You say that defensive gear is bad bc zyg and tran are on every team, but by that logic, sdef heatran is also bad because zyg and lando-t are on every team. The reality is that sdef heatran is an incredibly consistent check to many meta threats that can get up rocks and spread status. A defensive pokemon should be ranked on the basis of how well it does its job and how (not) passive it is, and magearna is both. It is one of the most resilient psyspam checks there is, and it still doesnt give free switch-ins to the mons that annoy it, as you said.

You probably think offensive magearna is frail because you're using it like a defensive magearna. Offensive is just supposed to use its bulk to set up, and only really check shit when its badly needed. If you're switching in your sg 3 attacks magearna into alakazam and tapu lele throughout the battle and being unsatisfied when it dies so quickly, you're probably using the team wrong or using the wrong magearna set.

As far as not seeing the magic goes, i'm sure you already know the 8 different sets offensive gear can run, if that same mon checking half the meta when it wants to doesn't convince you then I'm not too sure what will.

Garchomp

Its weird that you compare a dragon/ground physical attacker and a fire/steel special attacker, yes. Just because they have the same role as an offensive stealth rock setter that use the z-move, that doesn't mean they're interchangeable or something, they do completely different things.

I'm also not sure that you understand what I mean by pressure. Heatran straight up beats av tang and clefable, and nobody is going to switch either in on heatran. When I say pressure, I mean that AV tang and landorus-t are FORCED to come in to try and check garchomp because that is the teams designated chomp check, even though chomp will muscle through them.

If you need to get rid of that av tang or torn for your sd kart in the back, sd garchomp will be forcing those mons in and muscling through them, whereas neither of those are really going to mess with heatran anyway, and they will stay healthy in the lategame to annoy your kart.
Hope i explained what i mean by "pressure" a little more clearly

Mawile-mega

I repeated them cuz i fuckin felt like it
I also think you overstate the "4MSS" it has because its literally unwallable with just one set, the AoA one. People just like to make room for SD+sucker punch and abandon the coverage because they want to threaten offense more, and that is their own conscious decision to stray away from the set that doesn't really need any more moveslots because it kills everything with just 4.

 

[Deleted User [433215]]

Ig ill talk these noms too, cause fuck it.

Latios from A to A-: Agree
It’s not as good as before, tho sayin zam is outclassin it isnt necessarily true, latios does some stuff better.

Zam: A+ to A: Agree
Its running timid more now and its counters are being used more.

Reuni A- to A: Disagree
Is a good niche but requires too much support. And has certain tough MUs.

 

[NintendoVSPlaystation]

I know this topic has been beaten to death, but...

Garchomp from B- to A-

I started using Garchomp on my secondary team more, and I love it.
Dragonium Z is indeed the best set. Its only real counters are super strong speedy special attackers that have stab super effective moves and very tanky Pokemon that resist its stab options ( Yes, a lot. However, that is actually really solid for B- tier. ) It does its job just as well as Excadrill. It also really likes Heatran running around. Getting a Swords Dance is easy off this thing, especially when Heatran does not want to engage with Garchomp's Earthquake at all ( Unless if it is holding a Air Balloon, which lets just be honest is not idea to give to Heatran. ) Garchomp is very effective and I feel like while it is not a top tier sweeper, it can do considerable damage and set up stealth rocks fast or Choice Scarf works too. The decrease of Clefable and Tapu Lele in recent terms really helps out Garchomp. Garchomp also does fairly well against tanky grass Pokemon ( Except for Tapu Bulu ). Swords Dancing while Grasses are trying to stall or potentially switch is nice. It is a much better stealth rock setter than Mega Diancie and Mamoswine. Rise it to B+ or A-, either one is fine. A- suits it better though, as it is a better stealth rock setter than Excadrill in my opinion. Garchomp has its problems, but Garchomp shines once again.