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Okay, What changed in the Metagame for Hawlucha in such a positive way to rise it? if anything the recent trends is more negative towards it than anything, with Zapdos, Tapu Fini, Mega Latias, Boom Scarf Lando being more common, Your right, Hawlucha is very good vs Hyper Offense and once its checks are weakened it (& Hyper Offense has seen better days) & to be honest most playstyles outside of Offense are naturally prepared for Hawlucha, But the stuff you are saying such as weakening its checks with other pokemon, (Which has nothing to do with the mon itself) and mons that can check it doesnt necessarily have the best recovery can be said for a lot of other set up sweepers such as Gyarados or even Kommo-o, sure it has a good rain matchup but even then T-Wave Ferro is common on rain & even rain boosted water priority from Greninja is anoyying for it so its not like its as a easy matchup as it seems, Not to say Hawlucha is bad or anything i think its fine were its at but i would have to Disagree with it rising.
My argument was never that something changed in the metagame for it to rise. My argument was that it is too low in it's current position. Unlike Gyarados/mega, Charizard X and Kommo-o, Hawlucha never takes up a Mega slot or uses up a Z crystal. This plus the fact that it pairs so well with Koko and only takes neutral damage from entry hazards makes it easier to fit into teams than the other mons you mentioned. It not only does well against rain but also sand since it can outrun and OHKO Excadrill.
Besides Zapdos which I already agreed was a hard match up, all the other mons you mentioned have to heavily invest in HP to take a +2 acrobatics which doesn't allow them to OHKO the standard set. Also, Blowing up Lando leaves the opponent's team vulnerable to Koko for the most part unless they have some other Koko check and the Sub set can just take the explosion or a SSSS as well.
Also, as far as the post Zygarde ban metagame goes, Scizor is probably the one that got hurt the most and even then, hasn't dropped much in usage if at all or rank in the last four months meaning it's most likely staying there unless some even more huge unfavorable changes happen to it. Just using this as an example that the current metagame plays a huge part in a Mon's placement on the rankings but isn't the only thing considered.
Hello, I don't post here anymore but for what its worth here's my input: I agree on most of the changes especially Zard X / Heatran / M Latios
I also agree on Hawlucha. It's not that there was a huge metagame shift that suddenly made Hawlucha better, but I do think that Hawlucha was a sleeper for the past couple of months that teams have gotten away without running solid checks to it. For example, we are seeing certain trends that surely make Hawlucha more viable IMO. Rotom-w is an all time high, people use SpD and although it does not give Hawlucha set up it certainly is OHKO'd by +2. The problem is people sometimes use Rotom-W over Tapu Fini or Toxapex, some good old checks to Hawlucha.
Another thing is Scarf Lando-t has ever been more popular and people aren't even running stone edge anymore which lets you get away with not running Roost on luhca. Explosion doesn't kill when ur +1 and if you predict it you can always SD. I think substitute is an interesting choice to get around the fact that people are getting hella lazy with their lucha check being explosion lando-t. I like it cuz it takes advantage of this current trend.
People also have been having a big hard-on for Kommo-o for some reason which is not that big of a deal but I have been noticing usually the teammates that support kommo-o are lucha weak. For example Magnezone / Magearna / Lando-t are common teammates from what I see and these teams are destroyed by lucha.
Most of the teams nowadays run good old ORAS core of rotom-w/scarf lando voltturn. You also see some torn-t / av mag / ferro / chomp / koko / kommo-o / tang / kartana being the most common pokemons rn in the meta and none of them stop lucha effectively. Solid checks to lucha such as Clefable, Zapdos, and Toxapex have been on all time low. The only solid check that has kept consistent usage IMO is Tapu Fini.
Bottom Line: Tapu Koko + Scarf Explosion Lando-t seems like how most people are dealing with Lucha cuz of lazy teambuilding and any good player can get around those two with good chip and solid game planning. Good checks are low on usage (ex: zap/clef/tox) and hawlucha exploits these lazy teams with rotom-w/lando-t/torn-t voltturn cores on the ladder
I'm usually just building stall when on PS so I don't have much trouble with lucha, but whenever I build balanced or bulky offense Hawlucha is something always on mind to prepare for, and I think after taking a quick glance at the B rank I definitely think lucha is the best or the most "centralizing".
I know this may not be the best argument for it, but this is my input from laddering the past month.
Celesteela A to A+ - This thing has been very good for the last couple of months and doing great in wcop right now with a win % of 61.90 so yes Celesteela deserves A+ and is better right now because it covers so much right now and while prepping for it might seem easy its really not considering leech seed spam. Celesteela does a decent job vs SD Excadrill Sand, Protean Greninja, and Tapu Lele which is really valuable considering these three mons are very hard to switch into which is why Celesteela is great right now. I know it can get trapped by Magnezone but that just shows how threatening Celesteela is to prep for and the consideration people make for it because almost every team falls apart once you have no ways to kill celesteela anymore.
Charizard X B+ to A- - Everyone should know how good charizard x is right now. DD 2 Attacks Roost chips so many teams that rely on lando-t + (insert) water type and very annoying for bulky offense and balance. Tapu Fini, Toxapex, and Rotom-W all get pressured and eventually overwhelmed. not much explaining i have to do here since everyone knows what this thing is doing right now. it is just more consistent than every mon in B+ besides maybe jirachi and deserves a rise at this point.
M-Gallade B- to B+ - very good mon right now... its not medicham where it nukes everything with one attack but gallade still puts so much pressure on every playstyle because it has access to Swords Dance and has a nice speed tier outspeeding mons like Tapu Lele, Kartana, Kyurem, Garchomp, etc. In this meta M-Gallade is just better because people are just realizing how much this thing can punch holes in teams. you just cant go wrong with SD, Close Combat, Zen Headbutt, Knock Off/Ice Punch. Knock Off is better in my opinion since you actually hit and break through psychic types. Bulky Offense, Balance, and Hyper Offense are all vulnerable to this and its showing right now.
Kommo-o C to B - why in the world is this in C? what in the world.. i dont even know where to start. good stealth rock setter, good z move user with Kommonium Z, and has great bulk and great ability. its trending right now and no way in hell should it be in C.... hopefully i dont have to explain this. people have been experimenting with this too and works nicely on hyper offense, bulky offense, and even some balance/stall teams which is surprising but not really at the same time considering its bulk and nice ability. shutting down blacephalon and getting up rocks is just nice. kommo-o also gives you a better match up vs standard specs ash-greninja which is another bonus. Kommonium Z and Belly Drum set is great on hyper offense if you set yourself up right and will win games.
Thundurus-T C to B - let me explain.... I repeat let me explain lmao just let me explain please and you will see why xD
people have no idea how good this mon is and im about to show you why. First off here is the set which IMO is very clear cut for B rank.
Thundurus-Therian @ Fightinium Z
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Flying]
- Focus Blast
This set breaks every playstyle and is very consistent. after a nasty plot nothing can take it on besides the M-Lati's... chansey gets KO'ed after some chip from +2 Z Focus Blast and it just breaks very well. The reason for HP Flying over HP Ice is mostly because of M-Venusaur, Amoonguss, and Shedinja Stall, it also hits specially defensive Tapu Bulu harder which is needed. Volt Absorb also comes in handy vs pokemon like Magnezone which is just incredible as well. BUT i will let all the replays speak for itself.. this is just amazing
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-918082010 - Destroys a Balance team... JESUS https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-922946674 - a match up where it just won from the start https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-918046474 - vs a standard medicham team on ladder. it just has a good match up vs these type of teams and always gets a kill or weakens something for one of your mons https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-918078370 - again vs the same standard medicham team on the ladder.. he tried to outplay the thundurus-t and got destroyed in the process. nothing you can do really. https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-916781949 - vs standard medicham teams nothing can force it out from getting +2 besides ash-greninja and always gets a kill or weakens av magearna for your own ash-gren. https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-920676120 - vs BKC/ABR rain. It gets chip off of m-swampert and magearna. if they lead pelipper you always fightinium z turn 1 because they will always go M-Swampert or Ferrothorn. if they let you knock out their ferrothorn then your ash-gren has a very good chance of winning and if they let you nuke M-Swampert then that just gives your team lots of breathing room. Ash-Greninja + Thundurus-T + Tapu Fini is just a great core.
Hello ! I'd like to talk about a mon that I believe is completely overlooked in the tier. The christmas tree himself, BIG Mega-Abomasnow .
I started using this pokemon around christmas as a holiday meme, but after realizing its actually pretty good it has become one of my absolute favorite pokemon to use. I hope that through this post I can show you this mons potential, and at the least encourage you all to try out this icy behemoth.
Mega Abomasnow's main niche in this tier is its incredible ice/grass/ground coverage; the combination is unresisted in ou, only being walled by Scizor and Volcarona. This coverage, combined with high base power moves such as (100% accurate) Blizzard and Earthquake, along with stab priority in ice shard, make M-Abomasnow incredibly difficult to switch in to for common offense/bulky offense builds.
Many defensive cores in the tier like gliscor/pex, tang/pex, lando/mage/rotom, basically any core that does not involve Scizor or Volcarona, gets shredded (get it?) by Blizzard/EQ/Giga Drain. Magearna takes over half from eq and can't kill back without z-steel or z-fight (0 hp sets even die to just blizzard + eq), Toxapex is 2hko'd by eq with rocks up, and Rotom is hard walled of course. Jirachi is a bit more dicey as it can always flinch hax and also takes slightly less, but it can be 2hko'd by earthquake nonetheless (again, offensive choice scarf sets die to blizzard + eq).
0 Atk Abomasnow-Mega Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Toxapex: 126-150 (41.4 - 49.3%) -- 84.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock, Black Sludge recovery, and hail damage
0 Atk Abomasnow-Mega Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 162-192 (44.6 - 52.8%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO after hail damage
0 Atk Abomasnow-Mega Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 182-216 (45.1 - 53.5%) -- 35.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery and hail damage
*if you're running calcs of your own note that hail damage may not actually show up in the calc, it doesn't show up for me so I just set the pokemon to burned and changed the text after. Another thing to note if you do this is that hail damage goes before leftovers/black sludge, as opposed to burn damage which goes after. So in the case of toxapex and magearna above, i'm fairly certain both of these are actually guaranteed 2hkos.
You can see in the following replays, it is very difficult for opponents to pivot around Abomasnow without taking massive damage to their team. In the first replay, abomasnow helps me mount a comeback in a game that i was sure I was going to lose. https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-905881607
In this replay you can see Abomasnow put in work, and get 2 kills (it would have gotten 3 if not for bullet punch medi, pls dont use that shit it sucks) https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-904227413
Rain in particular is a playstyle which has gained considerable traction in recent months, and is a matchup where Abomasnow really shines. Strong ice stab is extremely potent vs many rain builds, and when combined with its coverage options, along with Abomasnow's utility as a weather changer, it leads to games where Abomasnow can truly dominate . Here's a game I played on the ladder, you can see here just how difficult it is for rain to deal with the tree. https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-904738881 (yes he was using Xurxitree, but replace xurx with a koko and it doesn't change much, it might actually make the mu better for Abomasnow)
While Abomasnow does admittedly possess a terrible defensive typing, the specific resistances it does have (water electric ground) are fantastic ones to have in ou. In addition, its terrific bulk (384/246/246) allow it to live nearly any attack that isn't a stab fire move or high jump kick from full, even many common super effective hits. Some examples of attacks it can live include
252 Atk Kartana Smart Strike vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Abomasnow-Mega: 284-336 (74.1 - 87.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Zapdos Heat Wave vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Abomasnow-Mega: 316-376 (82.5 - 98.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Tornadus-Therian Hurricane vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Abomasnow-Mega: 306-362 (79.8 - 94.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Diancie-Mega Diamond Storm vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Abomasnow-Mega: 312-368 (81.4 - 96%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Alakazam-Mega Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Abomasnow-Mega: 314-370 (81.9 - 96.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Magearna Twinkle Tackle (195 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Abomasnow-Mega: 306-361 (79.8 - 94.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Magnezone Flash Cannon vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Abomasnow-Mega: 276-326 (72 - 85.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Abomasnow-Mega in Psychic Terrain: 318-375 (83 - 97.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
*the lele calc may seem irrelevant but I am highlighting it here just to show off abomasnows bulk, as even bulky mons such as clefable and rotom-wash struggle to take a psychic without spdef investment.
You can see in the following replay that Abomasnow was able to take out a garchomp and, due to a fortunate miss, was also able to live a +1 fleur cannon from Magearna and knock it out after some chip. Even disregarding the fortunate dodge, Abomasnow's inability to be switched into caused the opponent to sack his garchomp, which removed any way for my opponents team to pressure toxapex. https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-923654570
I'll share with you some of my favorite sets down here. I believe the best way to use Abomasnow is as a bulky breaker. You can see in my replays with it I led with it nearly every game. Its ability to live a myriad of powerful and even super effective hits (shown above), as well as hail chip eliminating focus sashes from suicide leads, allow it to be a fantastic lead vs common offensive builds.
This is my favorite set, and is the one I have been referring to in my entire post above. I've already discussed the moveset, the evs are basically just tailored to be able to outspeed toxapex and live all attacks shown above This set is hard walled by Scizor, Volcarona, and Chansey, so having teammates to help check/abuse those pokemon is appreciated (heatran and pex are two great teammates to consider).
Another cool set is specially defensive leech seed + protect. This set can be very good versus teams like the sample medi gren volt turn, where everything on the team is taking leech + hail + tect, which is able to wear those team structures down very quickly.
I really do think this pokemon is viable in the metagame, and in all honesty after using this pokemon for the past few months I believe its viability is closer to that of zard-y/keldeo, so somewhere in that C+/B- range. I am just nomming it for C though because I feel like for the majority of you who are likely unfamiliar with this pokemon, it can easily be compared to other C rank pokemon such as Nidoking, which is incredibly frail and despite being faster than Abomasnow, still lacks the speed tier it needs to actually be a potent threat.
I hope that through this post I will have convinced you all to try this pokemon out. I'm going to share the team I used in all of the replays shown above if you don't want to build and just want a team to use it with. I got quite high on the ladder with it and I think it can definitely showcase Abomasnow's abilities in the tier. Just look at this destruction http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-921257508.
Hello ! I'd like to talk about a mon that I believe is completely overlooked in the tier. The christmas tree himself, BIG Mega-Abomasnow .
I started using this pokemon around christmas as a holiday meme, but after realizing its actually pretty good it has become one of my absolute favorite pokemon to use. I hope that through this post I can show you this mons potential, and at the least encourage you all to try out this icy behemoth.
Mega Abomasnow's main niche in this tier is its incredible ice/grass/ground coverage; the combination is unresisted in ou, only being walled by Scizor and Volcarona. This coverage, combined with high base power moves such as (100% accurate) Blizzard and Earthquake, along with stab priority in ice shard, make M-Abomasnow incredibly difficult to switch in to for common offense/bulky offense builds.
Many defensive cores in the tier like gliscor/pex, tang/pex, lando/mage/rotom, basically any core that does not involve Scizor or Volcarona, gets shredded (get it?) by Blizzard/EQ/Giga Drain. Magearna takes over half from eq and can't kill back without z-steel or z-fight (0 hp sets even die to just blizzard + eq), Toxapex is 2hko'd by eq with rocks up, and Rotom is hard walled of course. Jirachi is a bit more dicey as it can always flinch hax and also takes slightly less, but it can be 2hko'd by earthquake nonetheless (again, offensive choice scarf sets die to blizzard + eq).
0 Atk Abomasnow-Mega Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Toxapex: 126-150 (41.4 - 49.3%) -- 84.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock, Black Sludge recovery, and hail damage
0 Atk Abomasnow-Mega Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 162-192 (44.6 - 52.8%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO after hail damage
0 Atk Abomasnow-Mega Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 182-216 (45.1 - 53.5%) -- 35.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery and hail damage
*if you're running calcs of your own note that hail damage may not actually show up in the calc, it doesn't show up for me so I just set the pokemon to burned and changed the text after. Another thing to note if you do this is that hail damage goes before leftovers/black sludge, as opposed to burn damage which goes after. So in the case of toxapex and magearna above, i'm fairly certain both of these are actually guaranteed 2hkos.
You can see in the following replays, it is very difficult for opponents to pivot around Abomasnow without taking massive damage to their team. In the first replay, abomasnow helps me mount a comeback in a game that i was sure I was going to lose. https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-905881607
In this replay you can see Abomasnow put in work, and get 2 kills (it would have gotten 3 if not for bullet punch medi, pls dont use that shit it sucks) https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-904227413
Rain in particular is a playstyle which has gained considerable traction in recent months, and is a matchup where Abomasnow really shines. Strong ice stab is extremely potent vs many rain builds, and when combined with its coverage options, along with Abomasnow's utility as a weather changer, it leads to games where Abomasnow can truly dominate . Here's a game I played on the ladder, you can see here just how difficult it is for rain to deal with the tree. https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-904738881 (yes he was using Xurxitree, but replace xurx with a koko and it doesn't change much, it might actually make the mu better for Abomasnow)
While Abomasnow does admittedly possess a terrible defensive typing, the specific resistances it does have (water electric ground) are fantastic ones to have in ou. In addition, its terrific bulk (384/246/246) allow it to live nearly any attack that isn't a stab fire move or high jump kick from full, even many common super effective hits. Some examples of attacks it can live include
252 Atk Kartana Smart Strike vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Abomasnow-Mega: 284-336 (74.1 - 87.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Zapdos Heat Wave vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Abomasnow-Mega: 316-376 (82.5 - 98.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Tornadus-Therian Hurricane vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Abomasnow-Mega: 306-362 (79.8 - 94.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Diancie-Mega Diamond Storm vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Abomasnow-Mega: 312-368 (81.4 - 96%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Alakazam-Mega Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Abomasnow-Mega: 314-370 (81.9 - 96.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Magearna Twinkle Tackle (195 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Abomasnow-Mega: 306-361 (79.8 - 94.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Magnezone Flash Cannon vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Abomasnow-Mega: 276-326 (72 - 85.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Abomasnow-Mega in Psychic Terrain: 318-375 (83 - 97.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
*the lele calc may seem irrelevant but I am highlighting it here just to show off abomasnows bulk, as even bulky mons such as clefable and rotom-wash struggle to take a psychic without spdef investment.
You can see in the following replay that Abomasnow was able to take out a garchomp and, due to a fortunate miss, was also able to live a +1 fleur cannon from Magearna and knock it out after some chip. Even disregarding the fortunate dodge, Abomasnow's inability to be switched into caused the opponent to sack his garchomp, which removed any way for my opponents team to pressure toxapex. https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-923654570
I'll share with you some of my favorite sets down here. I believe the best way to use Abomasnow is as a bulky breaker. You can see in my replays with it I led with it nearly every game. Its ability to live a myriad of powerful and even super effective hits (shown above), as well as hail chip eliminating focus sashes from suicide leads, allow it to be a fantastic lead vs common offensive builds.
This is my favorite set, and is the one I have been referring to in my entire post above. I've already discussed the moveset, the evs are basically just tailored to be able to outspeed toxapex and live all attacks shown above This set is hard walled by Scizor, Volcarona, and Chansey, so having teammates to help check/abuse those pokemon is appreciated (heatran and pex are two great teammates to consider).
Another cool set is specially defensive leech seed + protect. This set can be very good versus teams like the sample medi gren volt turn, where everything on the team is taking leech + hail + tect, which is able to wear those team structures down very quickly.
I really do think this pokemon is viable in the metagame, and in all honesty after using this pokemon for the past few months I believe its viability is closer to that of zard-y/keldeo, so somewhere in that C+/B- range. I am just nomming it for C though because I feel like for the majority of you who are likely unfamiliar with this pokemon, it can easily be compared to other C rank pokemon such as Nidoking, which is incredibly frail and despite being faster than Abomasnow, still lacks the speed tier it needs to actually be a potent threat.
I hope that through this post I will have convinced you all to try this pokemon out. I'm going to share the team I used in all of the replays shown above if you don't want to build and just want a team to use it with. I got quite high on the ladder with it and I think it can definitely showcase Abomasnow's abilities in the tier. Just look at this destruction http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-921257508. https://pokepast.es/d03b3476d94964fd
I usually just laugh these off but you might be onto something here. On its own Ice + Ground coverage is one of the best you can find in competitive Pokemon and it has been used successfully frequently by various Pokemon that are a huge pain to switch into such as Mamoswine and Kyurem-Regular. However, not only do you have Ice+Ground coverage but you also have a STAB Grass-attack to deal with some of the best answers to those like Rotom-Wash and Tapu Fini (Water-types, generally speaking). Hail is also quite interesting since it can chip Pokemon without recovery like you mentioned but it can also disrupt dedicated rain or sand teams.
i believe mega venusaur is pretty good in the current meta and has been deserving of b+ rank for quite some time now. it definitely stands out from other mons in b rank such as mamoswine, mew, and suicune. its great due to its capability of checking top tier threats in just one slot, namely mega mawile and magearna, two of the strongest wallbreakers in the tier and two mons that balance teams tend to struggle with. not to mention that its also able to beat electric and grass types (bulu, kart, koko, zapdos) respectively. mega venu can also annoy its common switch-ins like torn-t with sludge bomb for good chip and a potential posion chance. a natural good defensive typing along with leech seed is what makes this mon great. having nearly unblockable seeds gives it the much needed longevity and affordability to not have to go for synthesis unless absolutely necessary.
in the replay venu was basically able to stay in vs every mon and slowly at chip them. it didn't fear staying in vs kyurem-n due to thick fat and misty terrain and was eventually able to sludge bomb posion it on the switch-in which helped out a ton as kyurem was a pretty big problem. all in all this mon has its flaws, but is overall pretty good and b+ seems like a much more reasonable spot for it.
Minor thing, but your calcs all use 252HP instead of the 224 in the recommended spread. Turns out that none of the calcs actually change (okay unless a Spike is up), but just wanted to point that out.
Was reading a post where you guys tear a poster a new one when suggesting for mega Zam to drop.
Mega Zam hasn't really seen much usage lately. Didn't get used too much in SPL for an A+ mon (top 11 mons), isn't getting much use in the world cup and has never placed better than #30 in ladder usage this year. So my question to you guys is why you feel it should stay
Was reading a post where you guys tear a poster a new one when suggesting for mega Zam to drop.
Mega Zam hasn't really seen much usage lately. Didn't get used too much in SPL for an A+ mon (top 11 mons), isn't getting much use in the world cup and has never placed better than #30 in ladder usage this year. So my question to you guys is why you feel it should stay
First SPL isn't "lately", it was over just more than 2 months ago now
Second I think you've had this explained to you before, but usage =/= viability, even in tours. While there is some correlation, as people want to use the stuff that makes them win, it by no means can be your only argument, as stated in OP.
Usage statistics may be used to support an argument or a claim, but don't base your ENTIRE argument around them. For example, you can't just say "Pokemon X shouldn't be this tier because they aren't used that often!
I think Zam at the moment might be viable for a drop. With Jirachi sets like Scarf being used as a quick fix to Psychic Spam on offence, or the gain in popularity of Wish Protect set over its utility counter part combined with the rise in usage of other SpDef mons such as M.Scizor, Celesteela and Gastrodon, IMO I think the likes of M.Latias and Celesteela are better than Zam right now, especially with these fat M.Latias semi stalls appearing in tours. I'm not sure if its Zam should drop or these two could be due a rise, but these 3 do seem to stand out from there perspective tiers.
While Jirachi didn't see a pick up in usage, if we go to the ladder stats, we see that its Wish Protect set has been gaining some:
April: Wish 45.049%
May: Wish 49.209%
April: Protect 33.815%
May: Protect 41.657%
BUT the main reason I made this post is to complain about the fact that you deleted a quality art post I spent 4 hours on that was made for the VR specifically D':
PM me with a heart felt apology and I'll let you use my amazing, beautiful art
Ok I didn’t follow the last couple of tournaments and I think low usage in tournament is def a decent argument.
I can MAYBE see it drop to A but, to me, the thing that keeps it a nudge over other A mons is a couple of things:
1) Knock Off. I can’t stress how good this is on Zam. Think of how good knock off is on tornados-t and then double that. Literally mons like magearna and tangrowth who really depend on their AV just get Fucked. Obviously Chansey losing eviolite is huge too. Other mons that really rely on leftovers like Celesteela, Tapu Fini, and even Heatran just lose so much survivability without lefties. This is especially good when you run spikes which you should 100% run on zam teams.
2) Trace. This is actually like really really good on zam. I never thought I would say this but it’s just so good. Obv it’s amazing vs rain and sand which is HUGE, but it’s also just nice to trace tangrowth, Toxapex or tornados-t and get off a hit or two and switch off and ur zam still be in good health. Walling Heatran is kinda huge for offense as well. I have also seen so many times where it traced intimidate on scarf lando-t to win games even. Oh and if this thing comes in on weakened Celesteela or non scarf Kartana GOOD LUCK BUDDY.
It also has other low key usage like I have a big hard on for gastrodon and one time I clicked scald and this lord of a player brought in his mega zam, got the spa boost, and quite literally proceeded to fuck me in the ass. Not even a joke. Now I think before clicking scald. Another time my opponent weakened my Jirachi and brought in zam. I was like no biggy I wall this and my guy spammed shadow ball and get a Spd drop every other hit cuz of serene grace (yeah now that I think about i might be a little biased loool). Just stuff like that really gives this thing an edge
3) the hidden techs. The small techs on mega zam which are almost always unexpected are honestly really good. I’m not talking about like CM which can still be good. I’m talking like energy ball, taunt or substitute. Obviously all of them are inferior to knock off IMO but if you don’t need it they’re good. Energy ball is nice because it on shots mega swampert and gastrodon (makes me cry every time) and also 2hkos Tapu Fini which is actually pretty nice because although Fini can be worn down easily it’s really annoying sometimes to sack ur Ferro or gren to get spikes up and then Fini suicide Defogs they and this can prevent it.
Taunt is good for obvious reasons and substitute is also nice vs offense and balanced cuz people be switching between mons vs Zam.
These are just my thoughts and like I said low tournament usage can be a decent argument so I wanna also see what other people who followed these tournaments or even participate in tournaments regularly will say.
The metagame developed a bit since the last update so I figured I'd throw in my opinion about a few things I feel strongly about^^
Here goes
Drops
S -> A+
While Heatran is still a top tier Pokemon I am of the opinion that no set on its own is worthy of an S-rank. The specially defensive set is actually quite useful and even a decent Psychic-resist despite its weakness to fighting due to the combination of Toxic and Protect. Moreover it is able to take on Volcarona lacking Hidden Power Ground and it can even get a Toxic off on those who dont. All of this combined with its access to Stealth Rock leads to this Heatran set being quite formidable against a variety of offensive Pokemon which also includes things on the physical side like Mega-Mawile and Mega-Scizor, however, it is easily countered by defensive threats, especially ones that do not care much for either status Heatran can dish out like Clefable, Reuniclus, Gliscor etc, which means that the specially defensive set is definitely not a 'versus all' set. The same thing applies to offensive versions which are quite devastating and able to beat defensive cores relatively well (although we have seen various different adaptations from those as well such as more Mega-Lati@s usage and a bunch of water-types are all pretty safe bets unless you are facing the rare Grassium-Z Heatran) but it is very lackluster defensively, barely checking anything reliably due to its lack of bulk investment and Leftovers while also being extremely slow for an offensive Pokemon. The recent rise of Garchomp and Tapu Fini also play into Heatran getting worse overall.
B+ -> B
While hes a solid breaker, there are better options such as Mega-Mawile, Kartana, Mega-Tyranitar and even z-move Garchomp/Landorus-Therian to break from the physical side which all offer either some actual defensive utility, hazard control, better speed or any combination of those traits. Heracross lost a major part of its defensive utility with the Zygarde ban and its common weaknesses in Fire, Flying, Psychic and Fairy are too crippling for what it provides to stay in B+.
C -> C-
Absolutely terrible as Defog user and vastly outclassed by other Pokemon such as Chansey and Toxapex as a special wall, its saving grace is its immunity to water vs things like Manaphy or Suicune (whom Toxapex can also check for the most part) which is the only reason I am not advocating for it to get completely unranked.
Rises
A -> A+
Celesteela is the debatable greatest (at least #2) defensive Steel not weak to fighting. It counters a variety of premier threats in the tier such as Mega-Alakazam, Tapu Lele, Flyinium-Z Landorus-Therian, Mega-Lati@s, Kartana etc. and is able to make progress on its own due to its access to Leech Seed and Fire-coverage. Once Stealth Rock is up Celesteela is probably harder to switch into than your conventional offensive threats which is insanely scary and just flat out a good quality to have. Celesteela is an extremely safe Pokemon bar its vulnerability to Magnezone but even that can be worked around with Mega-Alakazam or Hidden Power Ground Ditto and certain Magnezone sets (scarf, z-steel) have trouble dealing lethal damage to SpD Celesteela in the first place.
B+ -> A-
This Pokemon is just very solid across the board. Great speed, insanely powerful and admirable bulk. Its main selling point over Mega-Latias is its immediately powerful Psychic coupled with access to a respectable Earthquake. With Ice Beam in the last slot you are in possession of Ground+Ice coverage with a very powerful Psychic demanding answers. With that being said I do think that Mega-Latias (mainly thinking of the 3 atks set here) is superior due to its absolutely insane bulk which allows it to answer things like Kartana or Tornadus-Therian, however, being able to theaten Toxapex and Magearna is almost as solid of a niche, so A- seems more appropriate.
B -> A-
Kyurem-Regular is good vs all kinds of playstyles in some way or another. Its base stats are unmatched by any non-Mega besides his brother and he is able to make use of them really well, benefiting from the HP stat, other bulk as well as speed and power. His ability enables him to take on teams on more than one level and his Dragon-typing pairs really well defensively with the otherwise worthless Ice-typing. Spamming Ice Beam behind Substitute isnt just the most satisfying feeling but also legitimately good considering it has a 10% OHKO chance. Moreover, this Pokemon can consistently answer SD Gliscor and is a unique way to check non-Fightium-Z Tornadus which have been rising up in usage lately so I think that both of the Kyurem brothers have a place in the A- rank.
Personally I dont like Metronome on it as much since the upside is relatively low, even againt its intended targets. Take CelePex for example: Toxapex is able to stall out the first few Earth Powers about as well as without metronome and the switch to Celesteela forces Kyurem to reset its Metronome for the benefit of unboosted Ice Beam damage on Celesteela. Both Icium-Z as well as Groundium-Z have much clearer upsides unexpectedly nuking Pex or being able to nuke an offensive Pokemon with Icium-Z (such as Mega-Swampert in my game vs Hiye). Otherwise, Leftovers allows you to abuse your ability much better and enables you to play more comfortably with traded rocks which is usually more desirable than Metronome but you do appreciate Pokemon that can either Burn or/and Knock Pex on Icium-Z & Leftovers.
B- -> B
Manaphy is one of the better choices for rain teams currently as it just blows through Water-resists at +3 with z-Surf in Rain, majorly supporting Mega-Swampert (who should be on every rain team). Due to Pelipper setting up rain in its stead, Manaphy is able to run the devastating two attacks (usually Psychic to deal with Toxapex who gets turned into setup-fodder) Tail Glow Rest set which is not only able to completely blow out conventional stall builds but also matches up well against balance due to its aforementioned ability to blow through Water-resists and it can also oneshot something against offense with Rain-boosted z-Surf while having remarkable natural bulk to tank one attack coupled with solid speed, outspeeding things like Landorus-Therian and the Kyurems.
B- -> B
This Pokemon has two different applications that I believe to be more valuable than its current rank represents. Offensive Stealth Rock (Draco, Fire Blast, Earthquake, Stealth Rock) is able to threaten the entire tier on its own (without even requiring sand support) and just has it all in terms of bulk and power while still outspeeding stuff like Landorus-Therian and Heatran. SD QuakeEdge is a mainstay on dedicated sand teams and while I am not the biggest fan of that set without sand people have even managed to pull that one of. This thing seems more appropriately ranked alongside Hippowdon, (who it can also partner with, which would mimic how Pelipper and Mega-Swampert share a subrank) Mamoswine and Amoonguss.
C -> B-
Ditto fits on a much wider variety of teams than any of the Pokemon in C or C+ rank and is able to fulfill its job nicely. Its one of the better scarf user in the tier so I think that placing him below Pokemon such as Thundurus and Volcanion is nonsensical. I went more in-depth on Ditto in this post here,
Unranked -> C-
This Pokemon is able to check Landorus-Therian, Garchomp, Tapu Lele and Magearna in one while not caring about Magnezone due to its access to Earthquake with the ability to set Stealth Rock. Due to these impressive niches I believe that it is clearly better than everything currently placed in C-.
I wanna echo Kyurem -> A- or at least B+, its in such a good place right now. A lot of teams just aren't prepared for it, so it does a really good job at breaking down weakened balance cores with Metronome. Even Celepex, which is pretty good against Metronome, struggles with the Z sets if you can predict well. It doesn't have that much trouble setting up substitute on a lot of the passive pivots in the metagame, and its got a surprising amount of longevity thanks to just. How much it walls and forces out
Wholeheartedly agree with a rise, would rather see B+than A-, though. I'm a big fan of Leftovers variants to be honest, as I feel Metronome doesn't function as consistently as I'd like. I run a crackhead set with Protect over Earth Power (on SubRoost), which helps me PP stall Pokemon easier. Of course, it loses out on the benefit of hitting Toxapex or Heatran. The former doesn't do anything to Kyurem anyway, so neither player would have any business staying in. I also run 56/ HP / 196 Def / 4 SpD / 252 Spe Timid for the immense physical bulk. This allows it to PP stall Celesteela and have an easier time against physical attackers like Kartana (An unboosted Sacred Sword now will not KO after Stealth Rock, and Smart Strike now has a 12.5% chance to do so after Stealth Rock. Kyurem will still OHKO without investment.)
Rise to C
I don't think that C- represents this Pokemon's capabilities to clean whatsoever. I've been running a fatter DD variant as of late, which utilizes Roost to ease set up against Scarf Landorus (assuming it doesn't crit you or you haven't taken chip beforehand). It destroys all Heatran variants, but fears Toxic or Will-O-Wisp. Teams that run Tapu Bulu / Tangrowth + Heatran will find trouble in dealing with Dragonite. With Roost, Dragonite can cheese Celesteela with Supersonic Skystrike (after 4-5 boosts). The rise in usage of Zapdos and Rotom proves to be annoying, though Dragonite can still muscle past these threats with Supersonic Skystrike after several boosts and chip damage. Tapu Fini, a very popular pick right now, fails to stop Dnite. +1 Z-Fly OHKOs, and Multiscale allows Dragonite to take only 28-33% from Moonblast (136 HP investment). Weakness to rocks
Drop to Unranked
I don't remember the last time I've been swept by this thing. It sets up and I'm like, "Oh shit I lose," and then it does like 80 and dies. Its Z-Water tech is nice, don't get me wrong, but is this really the Pokemon that you want to take up your Z? Many other set up Pokemon like Kommo-O or Magearna would function far greater with access to a Z-crystal. It simply can't run enough coverage to be extremely menacing. Hydro Vortex is always extremely obvious and is easy to bait. If you're successful in baiting its Z-Water, playing around Scolipede becomes much easier. Tapu Fini, a very notable glue Pokemon right now, hard walls sets that lack Poison Jab. If it foregoes EQ and runs Poison Jab, Toxapex completely shuts it down. I understand its purpose and its lure in Z-Aqua Tail, but you cannot justify its place on the VR to me. Its low bulk allows Scolipede to be revenged killed extremely easily by powerful priority moves. Ash Greninja's Water Shuriken does 87.3 - 103.4%, for example (post Battle Bond). Mawile-Mega's Sucker Punch hits for 60.5 - 71.6%. It is extremely hard to find a real excuse for using this Pokemon on a team other than trying to be unique. It has a job that's done better by any other sweeper on the viability rankings. It's so good on paper with its solid coverage, Speed Boost and SD, but it is not great in practice. I especially don't see this on the level of Mega Camel or Dnite lol.
Can I ask why Tyranitar is A- and Mega is A+? As far as I know, Mega TTar is quite unpopular, because not only it takes up a Mega slot, it's limited to the Mega Stone to Mega Evolve while normal TTar has access to stuff like Assault Vest etc.
Assault Vest set allows TTar to OHKO Alakazam on the switch with Pursuit or heavily dent it if it doesn't switch out for other Revenge Killer to come in, since it can eat an entire focus blast and not die.
252 SpA Alakazam Focus Blast vs. 224 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tyranitar in Sand: 212-252 (53.4 - 63.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
32 Atk Tyranitar Crunch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Alakazam: 320-380 (127.4 - 151.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
32 Atk Tyranitar Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Alakazam: 162-192 (64.5 - 76.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (which means on switch it'll kill)
Meanwhile the standard Rock Mega TTar set
252 SpA Alakazam-Mega Focus Blast vs. 168 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar-Mega in Sand: 376-444 (98.1 - 115.9%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO. With accuracy check it should be somewhere around 60% chance to kill on hit.
252+ Atk Tyranitar-Mega Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Alakazam-Mega: 242-288 (96.4 - 114.7%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
It's just an example of the difference in usage. AV Tyranitar can take 3 Hydro Pump from non-transformed Greninja and 2HKO it with Rock Slide/Stone Edge, and even with Ash-Greninja it still can tank 2 Hydro Pumps (with Stealth Rock up). Meanwhile the standard Mega set is potentially OHKO-ed by Hydro Pump and surely killed after Stealth Rock damage.
I understand Mega can safely set up Stealth Rock with 150 Def and 120 SpDef base but other than that it doesn't really offer anything unique. Landorus-T is a better physical pivot and can reliably set up Rock more.
Usage stats wise also shows that people rarely use TTar as well.
If there's a good reason why Mega TTar is ranked higher I would love to hear. Thank you.
I feel like this more belongs in the simple-questions-simple-answers thread, but the bulk is not the main selling point here. Yes, it's nice to be able to eat hits, but what makes Mega TTar shine is the offensive prowess it has to pressure common defoggers such as Zapdos and Tornadus with, making it quite the effective rocker, as well as being able to run a Dragon Dance set to flip the tables on players expecting the rocks set. While normal Ttar isn't bad by any means, Mega Ttar is just a little better at the moment, and their respective current rankings are a reflection of this. If you have anymore questions, feel free to ask! (But you should probably ask them here instead of the Viability Rankings, although this question in particular is fine here as long as the moderators are fine with it). Hope that answers your question, and have a good day!
Ah, I think since the question is mainly about the viability ranking of regular Tyranitar and the Mega Forme, this would be the appropriate place to ask. If it's not feel free to delete my question.
I kinda understand the fact that it can surprise slower pokemon with a DDance set or has superior damage even uninvested, but I just think the Mega Slot is better on someone else.
I’ve been using Xurk quite a bit lately and just saw that this mon isn’t even ranked, which is something I strongly disagree with. I'm not sure if it got unranked for its speed boosting sets, which are bad or because ppl restricted it to Sticky Web teams, which aren’t that good either right now. However, the Tail Glow + 3 attack set with Z-TBolt definitely deserves to be ranked imo.
Pex is as common as ever, Torn usage is at an all-time high now and taking advantage of these two is definitely a worthwhile asset for an OU team to have. Especially Helmet Torn will have a hard time against a team with Xurk and anything that spams U-Turn, which Torn would usually like to punish, but can’t - unless you want Xurk to get in for free.
Once it does hit the field, it will put on a ton of pressure to pretty much any team, since there is no safe switch-in. Ground types risk getting nailed by HP Ice or Energy Ball and Tail Glow on the switch means that literally every single mon you might consider a defensive “answer” just gets flat out destroyed by +3 Z-TBolt including AV Gear, SpDef Bulu, Ferro (43,8% roll from full), M-Venu (50%) and even AV Tang + Chansey drop after Rocks/Spike damage. If you look at the mons I just mentioned, you can see that Xurk makes a great partner for Ash Gren by either pressuring or luring/removing its best answers.
Xurk obviously has its flaws, it’s not that easy to get it in, faster ground types means you’re going to have to win some mind games and you’re not going to get good match-ups like Torn, Zap, Pex or Celesteela every time. However, if played well/correctly it can put in work, as you can see for yourself in the replays below:
I don't think that C- represents this Pokemon's capabilities to clean whatsoever. I've been running a fatter DD variant as of late, which utilizes Roost to ease set up against Scarf Landorus (assuming it doesn't crit you or you haven't taken chip beforehand). It destroys all Heatran variants, but fears Toxic or Will-O-Wisp. Teams that run Tapu Bulu / Tangrowth + Heatran will find trouble in dealing with Dragonite. With Roost, Dragonite can cheese Celesteela with Supersonic Skystrike (after 4-5 boosts). The rise in usage of Zapdos and Rotom proves to be annoying, though Dragonite can still muscle past these threats with Supersonic Skystrike after several boosts and chip damage. Tapu Fini, a very popular pick right now, fails to stop Dnite. +1 Z-Fly OHKOs, and Multiscale allows Dragonite to take only 28-33% from Moonblast (136 HP investment). Weakness to rocks
[/QUOTE] Super sonic sky strike does little to no damage to rotom-w and Zap, of course its also a huge risk setting up on them if rotom burns you, or zap has HP ice. And Multiscale doesn't really do anything to unaware clefable, or any other unaware mons. C- is fine, since pretty much everyone knows how to counter Dragonite, and can be ready for it. Since its really hard to set up on any of the top mons aka, lando, greninja, magearna, even mega-medicham, fake out ice punch.
I don't think that C- represents this Pokemon's capabilities to clean whatsoever. I've been running a fatter DD variant as of late, which utilizes Roost to ease set up against Scarf Landorus (assuming it doesn't crit you or you haven't taken chip beforehand). It destroys all Heatran variants, but fears Toxic or Will-O-Wisp. Teams that run Tapu Bulu / Tangrowth + Heatran will find trouble in dealing with Dragonite. With Roost, Dragonite can cheese Celesteela with Supersonic Skystrike (after 4-5 boosts). The rise in usage of Zapdos and Rotom proves to be annoying, though Dragonite can still muscle past these threats with Supersonic Skystrike after several boosts and chip damage. Tapu Fini, a very popular pick right now, fails to stop Dnite. +1 Z-Fly OHKOs, and Multiscale allows Dragonite to take only 28-33% from Moonblast (136 HP investment). Weakness to rocks
Super sonic sky strike does little to no damage to rotom-w and Zap, of course its also a huge risk setting up on them if rotom burns you, or zap has HP ice. And Multiscale doesn't really do anything to unaware clefable, or any other unaware mons. C- is fine, since pretty much everyone knows how to counter Dragonite, and can be ready for it. Since its really hard to set up on any of the top mons aka, lando, greninja, magearna, even mega-medicham, fake out ice punch.
[/QUOTE] Dnite literally gets +6 on Rotom thanks to Roost. It's forced to Volt Switch out after it Will-O-Wisp.
(Here's a replay to show how this Rotom user played against Dragonite: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-924890238)
Hence "The rise in usage of Zapdos and Rotom proves to be annoying, though Dragonite can still muscle past these threats with Supersonic Skystrike after several boosts and chip damage." Defensive Zapdos dies to +4, which is easy if it lacks HP Ice (again, thanks to Roost). Discharge can always paralyze, though, which is an issue.
+3 120 Atk Dragonite Supersonic Skystrike (175 BP) vs. 248 HP / 188 Def Zapdos: 309-365 (80.6 - 95.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery +3 is obtainable through the following sequence, which I have actually gotten in games:
Dragonite sets up Dragon Dance as Zapdos comes in.
Dnite sets up another, taking HP Ice (which does 29.6 - 35.2% when hitting Multiscale).
Dragonite roosts, losing the Flying-type and regaining Multiscale that turn. Zapdos uses HP Ice, aiming for the 2HKO, but it only does 14.8 - 17.6% after the Roost. This leaves Dragonite at 85.2 - 82.4% HP.
Dragonite sets up one more, taking 59.3 - 70.5%. Dragonite will survive the hit.
Dnite can now click Supersonic Skystrike, which hits for 80.6 - 95.3%.
There are 2 possibilities: Zapdos clicks Roost or Hidden Power Ice. The former lets it survive, but the latter ensures its death, as Dragonite clicks Fly to dodge and KO.
It's entirely possible to get +4 and OHKO thanks to Roost, but it takes forever and you would probably get Discharge paralyzed or hit by a crit after Roosting so much on HP Ice. Either that or you'd be too low to pose a threat to the rest of the team, getting revenge killed by priority easily. At the end of day, Zapdos survives the sequence if it took no major chip damage.
Mentioning Unaware Pokemon is literally irrelevant since there isn't a notable Dragon Dancer that can bypass these Pokemon anyway (bar Outrage Charizard-X but that set is hot ass and gets revenge killed by everything in the game). Those Pokemon are literally designed to take on physical set up mons so I don't see the worth in bringing them up.
It is not hard to set up on Landorus either thanks to Roost (you PP stall Stone Edge from Scarf Lando).
"Since its really hard to set up on any of the top mons aka ... greninja, magearna, even mega-medicham, fake out ice punch."
It's not exactly smart to set up with an offensive Pokemon against powerful breakers anyway... Magearna isn't Shift Gearing on a Mega Medicham High Jump Kick as Charizard-X wouldn't Dragon Dance vs. a Landorus.
Dragonite is NOT invincible and does not auto win upon setting up. I just don't see it on the same level as trash like Golem-Alola or Ninetales-Alola. It destroys those Tapu Bulu + Heatran cores or teams that rely on Scarf Landorus. It finds set up opportunities on Pokemon Choice locked into unfavorable moves (like Specs Lele locked into HP Fire or Band Bulu locked into its STAB or Superpower). It relies on Multiscale to maintain bulk, so it puts a lot of pressure on your own hazard removing Pokemon. Several Pokemon in OU can annoy or cripple it (ie Toxapex, Rotom-Wash, Zapdos, or Celesteela). With the necessary chip, Dragonite can muscle past them or at least soften them up for another teammate thanks to its strong Z-move. There are some fun builds out there showcasing Dragonite here if you want to see it in action: 123
I don't wanna derail the thread to talking about Dragonite so I'm not gonna continue talking about it
I’ve been using Xurk quite a bit lately and just saw that this mon isn’t even ranked, which is something I strongly disagree with. I'm not sure if it got unranked for its speed boosting sets, which are bad or because ppl restricted it to Sticky Web teams, which aren’t that good either right now. However, the Tail Glow + 3 attack set with Z-TBolt definitely deserves to be ranked imo.
Pex is as common as ever, Torn usage is at an all-time high now and taking advantage of these two is definitely a worthwhile asset for an OU team to have. Especially Helmet Torn will have a hard time against a team with Xurk and anything that spams U-Turn, which Torn would usually like to punish, but can’t - unless you want Xurk to get in for free.
Once it does hit the field, it will put on a ton of pressure to pretty much any team, since there is no safe switch-in. Ground types risk getting nailed by HP Ice or Energy Ball and Tail Glow on the switch means that literally every single mon you might consider a defensive “answer” just gets flat out destroyed by +3 Z-TBolt including AV Gear, SpDef Bulu, Ferro (43,8% roll from full), M-Venu (50%) and even AV Tang + Chansey drop after Rocks/Spike damage. If you look at the mons I just mentioned, you can see that Xurk makes a great partner for Ash Gren by either pressuring or luring/removing its best answers.
Xurk obviously has its flaws, it’s not that easy to get it in, faster ground types means you’re going to have to win some mind games and you’re not going to get good match-ups like Torn, Zap, Pex or Celesteela every time. However, if played well/correctly it can put in work
Very much support this nomination: Xurkitree is a poor choice for a Sticky Web team because it still cannot outpace one of its most common answers in offensive Landorus-T, and Z-Hypnosis has always been both inconsistent and all-or-nothing (and still beaten by common scarfers).
However,I have been running the very same Electrium-Z set for many months and it's through this set that Xurk really shines: +3 Gigavolt is very potent at pushing through the assumed "safe" switchins that are neither water-grounds (Energy ball) nor Lando-T/Garchomp/Gliscor (HP Ice).
Sticky Web aside, it loves tailwind support to outpace faster,frailer offensive teams, including scarfers and those faster ground types that could otherwise switchin more freely.
The main appeal for me was the fact it can dismantle stall teams solo when given an opportunity to set up and break chansey.
Give it some support, and Electrium Xurkitree can succeed.
Xurk for C.
Have some vids kicking around but cannot add at this moment
EDIT: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-905178529
Pretty much a perfect example of the stall matchup flat-out losing given an opening. Gliscor don't normally invest too much in speed so max speed timid xurk outspeeds.
I love Mega Scizor, I love everything it does, but with a rise in Celesteela and Toxapex (and to a lesser extent Zapdos and Magnezone) it has become so hard for Scizor to put in any work. Its not bad as a pivot just bc of how bulky it is and it being resistant to half the type chart, but Bullet Punch/U-Turn means its also really easy for most teams to pivot into. But taking up the mega slot is a very real cost for how little work Scizor puts in without team support. I don't think its a bad pokemon by any means, but its easily a cut below everything else in A-
I love Mega Scizor, I love everything it does, but with a rise in Celesteela and Toxapex (and to a lesser extent Zapdos and Magnezone) it has become so hard for Scizor to put in any work. Its not bad as a pivot just bc of how bulky it is and it being resistant to half the type chart, but Bullet Punch/U-Turn means its also really easy for most teams to pivot into. But taking up the mega slot is a very real cost for how little work Scizor puts in without team support. I don't think its a bad pokemon by any means, but its easily a cut below everything else in A-
In Celesteela's case, it is just far too quickly worn down by Mega Scizor, especially by Knock Off variants, the most prominent ones. As far as Pex is concerned, that too doesn't love losing Black Sludge and hasn't seen an uptick in usage so I don't see anything that became worse for Scizor in order for it to drop. Scizor also doesn't need that much team support, since it can wear down its own checks pretty handily, making it quite self-sufficient actually. Also, it lures lots of stuff with Knock Off, thus providing team support instead of needing it. Scizor is perfectly fine in A-
In Celesteela's case, it is just far too quickly worn down by Mega Scizor, especially by Knock Off variants, the most prominent ones. As far as Pex is concerned, that too doesn't love losing Black Sludge and hasn't seen an uptick in usage so I don't see anything that became worse for Scizor in order for it to drop. Scizor also doesn't need that much team support, since it can wear down its own checks pretty handily, making it quite self-sufficient actually. Also, it lures lots of stuff with Knock Off, thus providing team support instead of needing it. Scizor is perfectly fine in A-
The problem with this is that although it can cripple these threats, it can't do much else to them since it can't reliably set up on either of them. Losing Leftovers and Black Sludge really hurts in the long run but Celesteela gets a free Leech Seed and threatens it with Flamethrower and Toxapex still has Regenerater and can potentially cripple it with a Scald burn.
Basically, Knock Off is Just a great move and there are better options out there for Knock Off users such as Mega Mawile and Torn so I don't feel it's a good enough reason for it to stay
The problem with this is that although it can cripple these threats, it can't do much else to them since it can't reliably set up on either of them. Losing Leftovers and Black Sludge really hurts in the long run but Celesteela gets a free Leech Seed and threatens it with Flamethrower and Toxapex still has Regenerater and can potentially cripple it with a Scald burn.
Well, it obviously can't set up. That's why Pex and Steela are MZor-checks after all. The point is that Scizor can cripple its checks, which leaves its teammates in a much better position. And I'm not only talking about Pex and Steela. Spd Tran, Ferro, Washtom and Fini are all checks to Mega Scizor that hate losing their item. The amount of support Scizor's Knock Off gives to potential offensive teammates like Ash-Gren is in itself a very valuable trait. This is of course an addition to the positive traits Scizor already has, like a fantastic typing, a good matchup against Psychics and Fairies, and the ability to clean up late-game. Regardless of arguments though, Scizor is still very much a staple presence in OU (albeit a more niche one) and thus should stay in the A-ranks.
I disagree with the idea of a Mega Scizor drop because of its ability to handle the highly popular and dangerous Psychic-types as well as other threats like offensive Magearna and Kartana, which are surging in popularity currently. Knock Off is a bigger boon than some are implying. A Heatran, Toxapex, Rotom-W, and or Celesteela getting Knocked Off can change games and how the opponent has to approach the Scizor user and its partners. Hell, U-Turn sets with Magnezone still pop up as they give great pivoting support and Magnezone itself is great at the moment. We can also see supporting Scizor has been becoming easier with its common partners like Garchomp and Tapu Fini oozing in viability at the moment. While Magnezone, Zapdos, and the like are certainly not entirely positive for Scizor in the current metagame, its ability to handle surging threats like PsySpam, Kartana, and Magearna along with the support it brings through Knock Off or even U-Turn pivoting makes it worthy of its current spot as an A-. Most of the Pokemon that are sited as reasons for Scizor to drop save Magnezone and Zapdos haven't even increased in usage that drastically overall. Many Pokemon Scizor does check, like Kartana and Tapu Lele, have actually increased in use, which is a boon for it and shows the metagame is trending in a direction thats a net positive for it. Scizor is on par with most A- Pokemon like Gliscor and Reuniclus and perhaps better than other ones like Chansey, as its more splashable and takes less overall work to support.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-443567
This smogon tour playoffs game between SoulWind and Gondra shows how Scizor can support its teammates through its pivoting support and how it utterly walls Magearna, Mega Latias, and Tapu Lele, eventually leading to it to win late-game.
EDIT: Just because there are other Knock Off users doesn't mean Scizor isn't justified in its A- position. Sure, Mawile and Torn are better Pokemon on the whole that happen to use Knock Off but they do different things. Mawile is a more offensive Steel-type with not nearly the same defensive utility while Tornadus has a different role as a strictly a pivot that Defogs to check things like Kartana and Landorus. Plus, the logic in general is off. As an example, you can say Landorus is a better Stealth Rock setter than Garchomp and Kommo-o. But that's not a good reason to drop them in itself. They do different things beyond the surface level of setting rocks.
