Resource USUM PU Viability Rankings

Rises


Bronzor from C to B-

Not sure why this mon is overlooked all the time (except on stall teams) and why it is ranked so low. Jellicent dropping hasn't really helped it out too much, but it still an excellent check/counter to many high ranks including Mesprit, Lilligant, Aggron, Mudsdale, Aurorus, Kangaskhan, Stoutland, Lycanroc, Togedemaru, Regirock, Qwilfish, AlolaSlash, Jynx, non-Knock Off Dodrio, Clefairy, and many A- pokemon as well.


Kecleon from B- to B

This is the third best AV user in the tier, behind Hitmonchan and Eelektross. It is a decent check to strong special attackers because of its bulk while also being able to deal good damage to faster Pokemon with its STAB priority moves.

Drops


Golurk and Bellossom from B+ to B/B-

I had nommed these to drop in an earlier post but I guess it was ignored or missed. They both share the same problem; they're slow as hell and lack immediate firepower. In an offensive meta like this one, these are not good traits to have. Golurk, as an offensive rocker, is outclassed by Mudsdale and is eclipsed by Jellicent as a Ghost-type/spinblocker in general. Bellossom on paper should have gotten better because of Jelli and Quagsire, but it really just became more obsolete due to the commonality of Dodrio (and earlier drops like Scyther and Froslass). Lilligant is just a better choice even though it's not nearly as bulky.


Altaria from B+ to B/B-

Altaria should be taken down another notch. It isn't really used outside of stall (similar to Bronzor, who is ranked far lower). Even with Jelli and Quag around, it struggles to find a niche because of its passiveness and the fact that there are many better defensive options.


Crabominable from B+ to B

This is yet another B+ rank mon that has stayed in B+ even though it became less relevant one or two metas ago. Jelli is the main selling point for this nomination, but also Dodrio, Froslass, Scyther, and the transition of PU becoming faster paced. It's niche as AV Crab definitely isn't what it used to be.
 
Hey ! This is my first VR post so please correct me if I say anything dumb


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Aurorus A+ to A

I disagree with this nomination. While yes, Aurorus suffers from some recent meta trends like the rise of SpDef Alolan-Sandslash and AV Crab (and more offensive teams, but it can run a scarf to remediate to this problem), it also loves some other trends, like the rise of cores like Mudsdale + Jelli, which is food for Aurorus. What I would also like to mention is that sending your check, like Alolan-Sandslash and AV Crab is extremely risky because it might run the coverage that would dismantle your switch-in. Not to mention that these sets rose to relevance because of how meta-defining Aurorus is, which is another reason as to why it should stay A+.


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Alolan-Persian B+ to A-

I support this nomination. Alolan-Persian is really amazing at what it does and it loves some recent meta trends, like the drop of Dodrio and how the meta is starting to be a little more fast-paced. It just acts as a reliable check to so many things, like the aforementioned Dodrio, Lycanroc and Raichu-Alola and other fast things while annoying bulkier teams with the combination of Taunt + Toxic and providing a good pivot for offense with Parting Shot, letting dangerous threats come-in easily, especially with the Z, since it gives a Pokemon a second chance of breaking/sweeping. The Nasty Plot set is really good vs Offense since it outspeeds most mon and the decline of Primeape helps it. Overall, a solid mon.



also sorry if this makes no sense im bad and my english is eh.
 

Alolan Persian: B+ -> A- 100% Agree

Personally I'd probably nominate this Pokemon higher, but I think A- would be ok for it right now. This thing is just absolutely fantastic in the current meta. A more offensive meta basically means that Alolan Persian thrives. Not only does it have an amazing Speed tier + a fast Parting Shot, but its ability to blanket check almost every frail physical attacker in the tier means it can be a blanket secondary check on many offensive and balance team alike. Z-Parting Shot is particularly good, being able to give many set up Pokemon a second chance, like Lilligant for example, while also decreasing the opponent's Attack and Special Attack stats. I'd also argue that it's fairly splashable because it disrupts most teams, from HO to Stall, thanks to it previously mentioned Speed but also Taunt + Foul Play + Toxic being fantastic utility options. In a meta that also favourites strong breakers, having such a potent pivot can very easily shift the balance of a game. Nasty Plot is like B- best but the pivot set is just so good.

I have other nominations that I wanna address, but I'll do that when I have more time!
 
Rises

A- to A Agree

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Serves a lot of utility and the metagame is kind it to it. Dodrio being in the tier, Articuno, Roselia and Togedemaru rising in usage, very versatile mon too. It can run flyinium z, stallbreaker, defensive. It has a great typing both offensively and defensively and not many mons resist it's stab. It's good against the common rockers like Mudsdale and defensive Mesprit (To a certain extent).

B- to B

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The best answer to hard hitting special mons like Sensu, Mesprit, specs Jellicent, Aurorus, Lilligant, Omastar, Alolaguttor, Raichu, Haunter, Ludicolo even under rain, the list goes on. It has Protean too, which boosts stab and being normal type from the bat is great to get neutral damage from most attackers, even it can tank Focus Blast from most mons that learns it. It has a great movepool too. Besides Drain Punch, the 2 priorities and knock, has some overlooked moves like the elemental punches or fake ou. AV is just more splashable than before, and even it can be walled by mudsdale, still a great mon.

B+ to A-

Abomasnow_NB.gif


It just gotten better. The rise of Mudsdale and the fact that it hit hard, it has a great typing offensively, barely resisted by the metagame, it is quite unpredictable (being physical or special), has great coverage (focus blast to hit alolash,stabs grass/ice, eq, blizzard 100% accuracy, wood hammer, ice shard), it can serve as a support instead of aurorus if you really want that extra speed and better coverage and priority, or leech seed. As I said, barely nothing resists a blizzard paired with giga drain/energy ball, focus blast or the mixed physical biased set. The only mons that resist that combination are bronzor, articuno and maybe crab? (if its run mixed that's another thing). It cann revenge kill some threats like lilligant or sensu/pom pom after some chip with ice shard. The downsides are that it is still slow, weak to sr and easily revenged killed, so I think A- is a good start.

Bronzor_NB.gif

C+ to B-/B

It has a great typing, great bulk with eviolite, can fit into most stall teams and can stop mons that threaten their teammates like the normal twins (Stoutland and Kangaskhan), Dodrio, lilli, etc. It is annoying to deal but it has problems, like reliaying on psywave to deal damage or skuntank still prominence, Jelli dropping from NU, and being completely passive, but it is actually better right now.

I wanted to nominate Frostom to A- but I think it's too early, for now.

Drops

Bellossom_NB.gif


B+ to B

Dodrio's drop didn't maked it any favor, Articuno's rising in usage, being still slow after a quiver dance, Frostom rising too, the oricorio's brothers being that good, lilligant existing and being faster, needing like 4 quiver dance to really sweep, requiring a lot of support, Froslass existing, same with togedemaru, it's just not that good to be in the same rank as Crab, Alolachu or Alolasian.

Golurk_NB.gif


B+ to B/B-

Mudsdale existis, also better ghosts that are pretty common, not being that bulky or fast, only strong, but there are far better options, and one of them is not relying on shadow punch for stab. It has good coverage, but it's just too weak and is walled by common mons like mudsdale, poliwrath or defensive jelli/mesprit, because shadow punch is underwhelming. It is outclassed by a mile by mudsdale as a stealth rocker defensively, and if you want to spinblock hitmonchan or alolash, just use mudsdale with another ghost type that can support better the team.

Toucannon_SL.gif


C to D/Unranked

Why is this thing still ranked? It's just a bad dodrio. It doesn't have anything that dodrio already has. Bullet Seed? still doesn't do enough damage to regirock and good luck using that against mudsdale. Brave Bird? dodrio has that but it has also a great speed tier. The only thing it has to rely it's boomburst, good luck using that against Eelektross or Jelli, or even better, mudsdale can tank it. Same thing, articuno's rising doesn't do it any favor, same with PomPom. It can learn SD to, I don't think it is viable at all in this mon. Too slow and weak, and has nothing to do as a wallbreaker when stoutland, dodrio, scyther, kanga, aggron exists.
 
Toucannon C to D/Unranked: Disagree
Toucannon isnt a bad dodrio. Because it simply isnt a dodrio. They have completely different roles, Dodrio is broken very good, but it cannot threaten bulkier teams as well as Toucannon. With EVs in physical attack (in my opinion the better set right now), Bullet Seed 2HKOs Regirock, 2HKOs Carbink after rocks, the other mons you mentioned can't switch in at all, except Mudsdale who really doesnt tank Boomburst.. unless it has EVs in SpDef.. and usually it cant do too much in return. You are switching Toucannon on something you can beat and then you predict what will your opponent send in - i think beating every single stall mon 1v1 is a bit unrealistic. Toucannon is uncommon, but viable, i think C rank is accurate.

Leafeon B- to C+
Leafeon is a sweeper on sun teams, and sun teams are terrible right now. With Pyroar (and Ninetales) gone, the only usable Fire-type in PU is Simisear (Combusken does not have access to Solar Beam and is easily walled, Turtonator cant really fit on sun), Aurorus and Abomasnow can easily change weather by switching in and there just isnt really a reason to use sun teams instead of rain. Even on sun, Leafeon faces competition from Shiftry and Sawsbuck, who have better coverage and offensive typing.
Outside sun, Leafeon can be used as a sweeper with Swords Dance or Z-Celebrate, but its bad movepool, solid-but-not-high-enough speed and lack of power make those sets a bit underwhelming - SD is easily revenge killed and Z-Celebrate lacks power to get past pretty much any Pokémon with good physical defense (Aggron, Snowslash etc.) It is not terrible, but not on the same level as Pyukumuku, Probopass or Shiftry.

Murkrow C+ to D/Unranked
It is a bit strange for me to see Murkrow up there in C+. It is a NFE with 60/85/42/85/42/91 stats and a gimmicky Z-Mirror Move set. It is not easy to set it up, you have to bring it in safely against a Pokémon that has already used a move and can be killed by a Z-copied move (+2 if physical). With Z-Mirror Move, Murkrow can get the +2 boost quite safely, but it takes a Z-crystal that could be used on a better Pokémon just to set up. When trying to sweep, Murkrow relies on Sucker Punch and Brave Bird. Sucker Punch is a useful priority move that should prevent it from being revenge killed, but it can be played around by priority and status moves from Pokémon such as Froslass, Dodrio and Lycanroc, bulkier Pokémon such as Persian-A, Silvally with speed investment or Scyther can easily take the hit and KO Murkrow, and a bit of chip damage is needed to OHKO most Pokémon that outspeed Murkrow with Sucker Punch. Brave Bird is much stronger than Sucker Punch, but has 33% recoil - with its 60 base HP and weakness to Stealth Rock and priority attacks (Gurdurrs Mach Punch deals 45-53%, for example), its sweep will most likely end after one or two Pokémon.. Murkrows reliance on Brave Bird as its only really strong attack also means that every Flying-type resist with a bit of bulk can, unless it is heavily weakened, take a hit and stop the sweep - Aggron, Aurorus, Omastar, Regirock, Alolan Sandslash and many others are very common.. There is just no reason to use Mukrow - we have a lot of better cleaners, Sucker Punch users, and also Dodrio.
 
Leafeon B- to C+
Leafeon is a sweeper on sun teams, and sun teams are terrible right now. With Pyroar (and Ninetales) gone, the only usable Fire-type in PU is Simisear (Combusken does not have access to Solar Beam and is easily walled, Turtonator cant really fit on sun), Aurorus and Abomasnow can easily change weather by switching in and there just isnt really a reason to use sun teams instead of rain. Even on sun, Leafeon faces competition from Shiftry and Sawsbuck, who have better coverage and offensive typing.
Outside sun, Leafeon can be used as a sweeper with Swords Dance or Z-Celebrate, but its bad movepool, solid-but-not-high-enough speed and lack of power make those sets a bit underwhelming - SD is easily revenge killed and Z-Celebrate lacks power to get past pretty much any Pokémon with good physical defense (Aggron, Snowslash etc.) It is not terrible, but not on the same level as Pyukumuku, Probopass or Shiftry.
I have to disagree with 'Bad movepool' and 'lack of power' Grass Dark Normal hits everything that is relevant in the tier at least neutrally. And 110 with solid base power moves is above average for the tier. It also nukes Aggron with +2 Bloom Doom, and KO's Snowslash with Knock off into +2 Bloom Doom. I'll agree that the Z-Celebrate set is underwhelming tho.
I was gonna make a nom for this anyways so... Leafeon B- to B


Leafeon actually does very well against the popular team styles. It takes advantage of Mudsdale, Roselia, Jellicent type builds. Grassium sets nuke a majority of the tier at +2. Even the popular grass resists dont appreciate switching in (Skuntank, Togedemaru, Lilligant, Dodrio ect) Sure Leafeon doesn't sweep teams or anything, but it's a completely viable breaker. It's one of those mons that is either viable or it isnt, depending on meta trends. And right now I think its solid. It still has the same weaknesses as it always has this gen but, there's more going for it than there ever has. So yeah, I think Leafeon deserves to move up, the meta trends really help it out with set up opportunities. As well as it's STAB + coverage hitting a majority of cores.
 
Ditto: D -> UR

I don't see how he's ranked. He's, at most, an placeholder for litteraly anything else. Sure you could do the bluff and transform into a good mon, but why not take said mon at the first place ? Plus, the fact it only have 5 pp on all capacities upon transforming just gives it terrible durability, if his terrible 48 base HP didn't finished him first. Plus, his 48 base SPD really cripples him in that he'll probably get hit before transforming or even get KO'd if he's against an offensive poke, which is the defining meta currently.
Although, while the ability Imposter prevents the problem said above, the top tier pokes (which is the most common target) will mostly have an attack that is a check against thier own type (Think Jelli's shadow ball or Mesprit's U-turn), so they can easily defeat the transformed Ditto, and such is even more easily done by Ditto's atomically small HP stat.

(Every reason why i consider this is in bold)
 
Ditto: D -> UR

I don't see how he's ranked. He's, at most, an placeholder for litteraly anything else. Sure you could do the bluff and transform into a good mon, but why not take said mon at the first place ? Plus, the fact it only have 5 pp on all capacities upon transforming just gives it terrible durability, if his terrible 48 base HP didn't finished him first. Plus, his 48 base SPD really cripples him in that he'll probably get hit before transforming or even get KO'd if he's against an offensive poke, which is the defining meta currently.
Although, while the ability Imposter prevents the problem said above, the top tier pokes (which is the most common target) will mostly have an attack that is a check against thier own type (Think Jelli's shadow ball or Mesprit's U-turn), so they can easily defeat the transformed Ditto, and such is even more easily done by Ditto's atomically small HP stat.

(Every reason why i consider this is in bold)
I think that you're misunderstanding Ditto's role. It serves as a revenge killer and is usually ran with a scarf to outspeed the mon it's supposed revenge kill and isn't meant to be switched-in directly. Also, Ditto's presence usually makes your opponent think twice before setting-up and this is just super useful. The low amount of PP doesn't really matter because it's just here to revenge kill, pressure your opponent or sweep under good circumstances. Keep Ditto D.
 
I think that you're misunderstanding Ditto's role. It serves as a revenge killer and is usually ran with a scarf to outspeed the mon it's supposed revenge kill and isn't meant to be switched-in directly. Also, Ditto's presence usually makes your opponent think twice before setting-up and this is just super useful. The low amount of PP doesn't really matter because it's just here to revenge kill, pressure your opponent or sweep under good circumstances. Keep Ditto D.
While i understand the revenche kill niche, it is easily countered due to his poor HP (the reason why Shuckle is not higher in the tier, to say only the most common example) and thus can be killed easily with an priority move, especially if said killer is an glass cannon, thus ultimately giving it an 50/50 chance to do nothing because he got outspeeded and got OHKO'd. For me this is too low of a chance to be considered reliable.

E: i forgot to add an argument that after a private talk i found: It's also very easy to prevent the revenche kill by switching to an faster poke than the transformed Ditto then use an attack strong against the Ditto (even if i admit that it may be difficult due to sometimes sweeping relying on maximum speed, but nothing an priority move can't overcome)
 
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I am not sure if you know what does Ditto do.. It never takes a hit before transforming, as its ability Imposter makes it transform immediately after switching in, copying every opposing Pokémon's stat except HP - Ditto's other stats like SpD dont matter at all. It has Choice scarf -> it alwayss outspeeds the opponent, unless the opponent has scarf too. WHile your opponent has a Ditto, you will never set up most of the tiers setup sweepers, because it would be copied by Ditto with stat boosts and sweep your team. Its 5PP in every move is both a curse and a blessing - it makes it very useful against stall teams, as it has essentially infinite PP and can heal your team, especially if you manage to switch it into a Knock Off. It is not too good, but the D rank is definitely deserved.
 
chan -> B+

one of the biggest draws of this mon over other blanket special attacker checks is its ability to spin hazards and rn its arguably the worst of the viable removers. jellicents introduction has fucked this mon over hard as it completely walls chan and either burn stalls to death, or does over half w/ specs water spout/hydro. this isnt accounting for all the other shiz its gotta watch giving free turns to, such as dodrio, the spikers, offensive mesprit variants etc. i find it way harder to justify using this mon in the current meta

mush -> Lower

he sucks lol. the metas too offensive for musharna to get setup opportunities vs p much any team. its really easily worn down by hazards, has an awful recovery move, and extreme vulnerability to status. along w/ this fighting checks arent as in as high demand as they used to be, seriously cutting down on the usefulness of its typing.

44th president of the united states, barack obama -> A-

agree with this moving up. mixed is really good rn imo cuz the combo of wood hammer+blizz is just so hard to switch into for a lot of teams. takes advantage of dumb mudsdale+roselia+jellicent type shit and imo is a solid pick vs most bulkier oriented teams. also sd grassium is the god set js

bronzor -> C+

also agree with rising this. super solid pick on stall teams, not only bc of its ability to wall like 70% of the meta and get rocks but also cuz it checks aggron and aurorus in the same slot. i think B- is kinda overrating it cuz it literally cannot beat any pursuit trapper and its passive as balls, but its leagues better than like everything in C lol.
 
chan -> B+

one of the biggest draws of this mon over other blanket special attacker checks is its ability to spin hazards and rn its arguably the worst of the viable removers. jellicents introduction has fucked this mon over hard as it completely walls chan and either burn stalls to death, or does over half w/ specs water spout/hydro. this isnt accounting for all the other shiz its gotta watch giving free turns to, such as dodrio, the spikers, offensive mesprit variants etc. i find it way harder to justify using this mon in the current meta
I have to disagree with this dropping to B+ of all things. Number one, jellicent does not wall chan. Chan can run thunder punch, which 2hko Specs Jellicent and meanwhile, jellicent does outspeed, I'd be willing to run 128 Spe to outspeed it and threaten it out tbh. Chan is not "completely fucked over" in the slightest

Also, chan has a good matchup against our top wallbreakers, aurorus and aggron, which are x4 weak to fighting. Chan is always forcing a switch against them It's not harder to use just because Jellicent is here. Priority Mach Punch is very nice to have, especially to beat mons like AlolaSlash, which dies to it after rocks.

In summary, chan can threaten some of our most common offensive threats (aurorus, aggron, toge, omastar, alolaslash) and Jellicent dropping to the tier has not fucked it enough to make it drop to B+.

(Nice to be back on the forums.)
EDIT: AV chan on smogdex runs 128 speed, didnt know that.
 
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Might as well just post my thoughts on the vr:

Clefairy to A-
Don’t get me wrong, Clefairy is not a bad mon by any means but it is definitely not the top mon that it used to be. The metagame has shifted away from Balance and into a much more offensive meta with Spikestacking and BO being the forefront of the tier. Clefairy is also just weak as fuck if it’s not using Calm Mind and fails to even put a dent on faster offensive mons once they come in and rip Clefairy to shreds.

Weezing to B+

Weezing has found itself being outclassed left and right while having its own defensive merits having less value. Its Taunt WoW set suffers from major competition with the Jelli set of the same name while it competes with Qwilfish as a bulky T-Spikes setter. Weezing also despises that Scyther has been on a decline. It also suffers that a lot of the top threats can currently break through it like Flyinium Dodrio.

Bronzor to C+
Now this is a nom that I can get behind. It’s typing and ability is insanely undervalued and it’s an easy pick for stall teams. Even with the drops, there is a plethora of mons that you see in the high ranks that are easy switchins for Bronzor and then it can reliably set up Stealth Rocks for the team. This mon is very underutilized and should be checked out way more.

These are my noms for the time being thanks for reading!
 

Megazard

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Rises
Stoutland A to A+
Oricorio-Pom-Pom A- to A
Persian-Alola B+ to A-
Audino B to B+
Tangela B to B+
Bronzor C to C+
Simisear D to C-

Drops
Aurorus A+ to A
Qwilfish A+ to A
Dodrio A+ to A
Clefairy A to A-
Weezing A- to B+
Primeape A- to B+
Oricorio-Sensu A- to B+
Raticate-Alola B+ to B
Bellossom B+ to B
Golurk B+ to B
Altaria B+ to B
Crabominable B+ to B
Zangoose B to B-
Musharna B- to C+
Toucannon C to C-
Dusknoir C to D
Murkrow C+ to D
Abomasnow B+ to A-
Silvally-Dragon B to B-
Kecleon B- to B
Leafeon B- to B or C+
Ditto D to Unranked
Hitmonchan A- to B+
Sandslash-Alola A to A-
Gurdurr A+ to A
50/50- Mudsdale A+ to A
So we made a few big changes between A and A+ that saw some discussion on Discord and in the room but didn't really get major posts here. Stoutland and Dodrio swapped places, which might be surprising to anyone who still considers the latter broken but frankly it isn't and it's not even especially consistent. Dodrio remains an incredibly strong Pokemon that can dominate matchups but also often struggle in them, and we felt it better fits alongside Pokemon like Omastar and Jynx. On the other hand, Stoutland is always a strong pick, pairs excellently with so many top Pokemon like Froslass, Mesprit, and Lycanroc, and has been seeing more and more usage recently. Aurorus and Qwilfish were also dropped from A+ as the power creep in the rank started to get to them, again these are some excellent choices with high amounts of utility but competition from other breakers/spikers and the introduction of Jellicent just means that they aren't quite as strong anymore despite remaining really good. That's the theme for pretty much all of these drops, with other Pokemon like Weezing, Sense, Bellossom, Crabominable, Murkrow, etc. doing pretty much the same thing they did but less effectively and/or with more competition. The only real outlier here is Altaria, which probably just shouldn't have been that high to begin with.
Moving to one of the rejected nominations, Abomasnow got a fair amount of hype in the thread but that sentiment was not shared among council. It is absolutely better in this meta and a rise to B+ already reflected this, but it's still inferior to Aurorus and suffers a lot from how easy it is to chip and check. Abomasnow still gets a significant amount off of gimmicks and surprise sets, which isn't inherently bad but hurts its consistency and splashability. I believe the most recent lure set we saw was Ktut's SubPunch Abomasnow in ladder tour and like, that's really emblematic of how you really need to work to make it good whereas the A ranks perform a bit more effortlessly than others. As for other rejected nominations, Kecleon is overrated, Leafeon is fine where it is but is certainly closer to dropping than rising, and my personal mediocreness on Gurdurr continues to be fruitless.
For discussion points, Mudsdale A+ to A was brought up by Teddeh in the council chat and we ended up split pretty evenly on that. Nobody is arguing it's a bad Pokemon, but it skyrocketed in the rankings and A+ might be a bit too high for a Pokemon that is still really annoyingly chippable by the Pokemon like Stoutland that it's supposed to take on. I'll also throw in Floatzel B+ to B, now that Alolan Persian is our go-to 115 speeder, this thing's relationship to Jellicent is a lot more devastating. As always, see the votes here and feel free to ask for more specifics about noms on the discord, in the room, in the SQSA thread, in my PMs, alongside complaints that I forgot to move xyz Pokemon or that council is biased and dumb, etc.
 
Sorry to ruin the peace but I have a nom

Cradily: C+ -> B-

Been meaning to do this for a while now. At the moment, PU doesn't have that many special walls, and with Cradily having a nice unique typing that's pretty difficult to deal with (unless you're a hail team), some solid special bulk, as well as a couple of other things, I believe Cradily has improved quite a bit. For one, Gastrodon's gone, who was Cradily's main competitor as a bulky Toxic/Recover mon with access to Storm Drain. Speaking of Storm Drain, Jellicent is here now, and Cradily makes for a great counter to Specs Jelli sets as well as other choiced mons like Scarf Kabutops. It also eats a Scald from Quagsire and forces it out with Giga Drain. Furthermore, would-be threats to it like Hitmonchan and Primeape have seen a decline in usage. With all this into consideration, I believe it's about time to revive this fossil.
 
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Ktütverde

Always turning thoughts into things
is a Tiering Contributor
S -> A+

Ok, my luggage are prepared, ready to take a flight to Antarctica where nobody will bother me (cries).

Jellicent is good. But jellicent isn't S rank worthy, in other words, not an ultraviable mon like mesprit and skunk. The latter two are S because of some of their sets: skunk because of its defog sets, mesprit because of the colbur lead set (and scarf too iirc). But all their sets are tremendously annoying (band skunk, glasses skunk; CM mesprit, specs). But jellicent doesn't have that one set that u can use more or less everywhere and put in work. Specs relies on predictions way, way too much. Defensive wisp is annoying, but a surge in usage of grass types and stoutland is making it a mon u dont throw in randomly, and requires support to do something (hard grass check required). And most importantly, defensive wisp suffers quite badly from 4MSS (scald/hex?).

Now, it is true that jellicent really centralizes teambuilding (the specs one) : u need waterabsorb/4x water resist+ skuntank/normaltype and it forces 5050s. But more often than not, jelli doesnt do anything, due to how it relies on predicting. idt we can have this mon with mesprit and skunk which are always reliable; jellicent is more similar to stoutland and lilligant imo.

I do fear specs jelli when building; but not as much as stoutland, aggron and lilligant. WHile wisp jelli, it is too weak to hazards and unable to beat the best two fightings: gurdurr and chan. What makes it S rank worthy then? Splashability? As far as I'm concerned, this is not splashable at all (lanturn/stoutland/exeguttor-A/skunk counterplay needed). And a mon isnt S because it is strong (aggron, lilli for S then).

Thanks for reading.
 
Couple noms for today...
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Metang from C- —> C
I think Metang could use a slight bump up. It’s a solid normal resist in a meta with Stoutland and Dodrio at their strongest, and is a passable rock check for Aggron and Lycanroc, especially if carrying Bullet Punch for the latter. As a bulky Stealth Rock setter, it’s nice that removal like Skuntank, Hitmonchan, or Alolan Sandslash cannot come in for free, and Pokemon like Altaria and Swanna are not super common. Metang also is not bait to any of the Spike setters (2HKOs Qwilfish with Clear Body EQ), which also indirectly plays into keeping itself as healthy as possible by avoiding Spikes chip. However, keeping Metang healthly is admittedly difficult and one of its biggest flaws, with it lacking any recovery. Inviting in Pom Pom, Mudsdale, Specs Jellicent and most waters isn’t the best thing either, however mind that most of these Pokemon hate taking a Toxic. Overall, I think Metang does its job as a tanky Stealth Rock setter well enough without forfeiting momentum to Spikers, as well as immunity to Toxic, to warrant another rise.

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Leafeon from B- —> B
Yeah I’ll have my take on this nom again. I personally think Leafeon is a perfectly functional breaker, even outside of sun atm. SD+Grassium is raw power with a respectable speed tier, outrunning the Oricorios, which both get KO’d at +2 by Z. Boosted Z-Leaf Blade is also capable of OHKOing Skuntank, and coverage in Knock Off/Frustration annoys or dents other Pokemon like Scyther, Tangela, Alolan Exeggutor, Togedemaru, etc. Weezing being on the decline doesn’t hurt either. Leafeon is realistically capable of setting up as well, threatening out Jellicent, Mudsdale, and Regirock, as well as anything in range of the Z move. It also possesses solid natural physical bulk, helping you eat a hit while setting up and allows you to tank priority easily. While it won’t sweep, it can be used to put holes in many teams that rely on Jellicent/Roselia/Mudsdale or Mesprit/Gurdurr/Skuntank cores. While the recent popularity of Alolan Persian and Sp. Def Alolan Sandslash aren’t things Leafeon perticularly cares for, both are prone to a Z-Leaf Blade on the switch or Knock Off, respectively. Leafeon’s capability of breaking a good amount of traditional grass resists and capability of set up can allow it to rise in a meta with cores that crumple to it.
+2 252 Atk Leafeon Bloom Doom (175 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Skuntank: 352-414 (101.1 - 118.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 Atk Leafeon Bloom Doom (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 64 Def Eviolite Gurdurr: 360-424 (96.2 - 113.3%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

+2 252 Atk Leafeon Bloom Doom (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Mesprit: 357-421 (98 - 115.6%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Leafeon Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Togedemaru: 136-161 (50.1 - 59.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Togedemaru U-turn vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Leafeon: 102-120 (37.6 - 44.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

+2 252 Atk Leafeon Bloom Doom (175 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Oricorio-Pom-Pom: 336-396 (95.1 - 112.1%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

+2 252 Atk Leafeon Bloom Doom (175 BP) vs. 248 HP / 172 Def Oricorio-Pom-Pom: 273-322 (77.3 - 91.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock (Sensu calcs are the same for the above two, although note that you can just Knock Off against Sensu)

+2 252 Atk Leafeon Bloom Doom (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Sandslash-Alola: 216-255 (61 - 72%)

+2 252 Atk Leafeon Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Sandslash-Alola: 160-189 (45.1 - 53.3%) -- 35.5% chance to 2HKO

+2 252 Atk Leafeon Frustration vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Exeggutor-Alola: 226-267 (57.5 - 67.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Leafeon Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Scyther: 113-133 (40.2 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 Atk Leafeon Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 4 Def Scyther: 113-133 (32.9 - 38.7%) -- 99.6% chance to 3HKO

+2 252 Atk Leafeon Frustration vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Roselia: 247-291 (81.2 - 95.7%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-836742795 While by no means against a standard build, Leafeon is capable of breaking through everything on the team, and can eat a hit from Lycanroc if need be, and would have done so if not for an untimely Scald burn.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-837241189 Leafeon showcases its ability to break down cores and utilize its bulk to avoid getting revenge killed easily.

As for discussion points...
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Mudsdale from A+ —> A
Disagree

While it’s possible the Mudsdale train went a bit far, I think A+ is still deserved. Mudsdale still remains an excellent blanket check to much of the physical meta, with options like Toxic to wear down many switch ins, while Protect gives it more Leftovers and allows Mudsdale to play more carelessly whenever Specs Jellicent or Lilligant threatens to switch in. Being on the same level as Regirock is fine imo, they check different things, but do about the same thing, and I find Mudsdale’s ability to check rock types and not be too weak to Gurdurr quite valuable. Mudsdale can also expand a bit in sets, occasionally with Choice Band or RestTalk. Mudsdale in general is quite splashable and performs consistently well in most games, I think staying A+ is fine.

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Floatzel from B+ —> B
Agree

Floatzel before was a bit under the radar, but could still function decently with various sets like Bulk Up, Life Orb, or even Choice Scarf. But now, Jellicent is an incredibly hard roadblock for Floatzel to overcome, forcing physical sets to run Crunch to even touch it at all, and eating most hits from special variants easily. Running options like Crunch leaves Floatzel open to other threats like Poliwrath or Abomasnow, and certain Switcheroo sets fail to cripple offensive Jellicents enough. As mentioned, Alolan Persian has become a more effective Pokemon with 115 speed, who can check Lycanroc and Dodrio far more reliably, as Persian can switch directly into them if it needs to, and eats up boosted Accelerocks and Quick Attacks, while Floatzel cannot do either of those.
 
Rises


Shiftry from B- to B

Shiftry is one of those Pokemon that is terrifying to face due to its unpredictability (similar to Mesprit, who is expected to be a defensive pivot but can surprise you with its other sets). STAB Leaf Storm blows away would-be checks like Gurdurr and Sucker Punch is good at picking off faster threats. Or, its Swords Dance set with Bloom Doom can tear apart unprepared teams. Nobody really prepares for this thing which is why I think it warrants a rise.

Drops


Dugtrio-Alola from A- to B+

Umm, why is this thing ranked so high? Personally, I think that the SubToxic set is especially overrated now, and Gurdurr is too common for it to be that useful. As a Choice Band user, STAB Earthquake hits hard, but it requires a lot of prediction considering the ubiquity of levitating stuff like Mesprit. Overall, I think that it's a good Pokemon, it's just not as good as most of its fellow A- ranks.


Ursaring from B- to C

Now that Zangoose is B- (which is 10x better than Ursaring), Ursaring can also drop. It's Guts set is too slow to be useful on any teams other than Trick Room, where it is outclassed by Crabominable as a wallbreaker. It's Quick Feet set is a serious reduction in immediate power, and it is still too slow to outspeed the vast amount of faster Pokemon like Dodrio, Froslass, and Choice Scarfers.


Munchlax from C+ to C-/D

With the advent of Jellicent, many PU mons saw a drastic decline in viability, including many non-Scrappy Normal types. Munchlax is really bulky, but it currently has no observable niche over Type: Null. It's only niche, Thick Fat, was better back when Pyroar was still in the tier. Munchlax likes a more balanced tier where wallbreakers, Taunt users, and Ghost-types aren't everywhere. Unfortunately, PU is not like that.


Pinsir from B+ to B

Pinsir is another one of those "B+ mons that everyone leaves alone". In all honesty, Pinsir is not that great. The recent influx of threats like Jellicent, Scyther, Dodrio, and Quagsire should have made this thing drop a while ago.


Sandslash from D to Unranked

I hate to say it, but Sandslash isn't really viable. It lives in the shadow of its Alolan cousin who too can set rocks and spin, and has a solid defensive typing. Sandslash is eclipsed by Mudsdale in general, and large outshined by Claydol as a spinning Ground-type. Jellicent, which has proven to be a meta-defining mon, is the last straw.
 
Rises


Shiftry from B- to B

Shiftry is one of those Pokemon that is terrifying to face due to its unpredictability (similar to Mesprit, who is expected to be a defensive pivot but can surprise you with its other sets). STAB Leaf Storm blows away would-be checks like Gurdurr and Sucker Punch is good at picking off faster threats. Or, its Swords Dance set with Bloom Doom can tear apart unprepared teams. Nobody really prepares for this thing which is why I think it warrants a rise.

Drops


Dugtrio-Alola from A- to B+

Umm, why is this thing ranked so high? Personally, I think that the SubToxic set is especially overrated now, and Gurdurr is too common for it to be that useful. As a Choice Band user, STAB Earthquake hits hard, but it requires a lot of prediction considering the ubiquity of levitating stuff like Mesprit. Overall, I think that it's a good Pokemon, it's just not as good as most of its fellow A- ranks.


Ursaring from B- to C

Now that Zangoose is B- (which is 10x better than Ursaring), Ursaring can also drop. It's Guts set is too slow to be useful on any teams other than Trick Room, where it is outclassed by Crabominable as a wallbreaker. It's Quick Feet set is a serious reduction in immediate power, and it is still too slow to outspeed the vast amount of faster Pokemon like Dodrio, Froslass, and Choice Scarfers.


Munchlax from C+ to C-/D

With the advent of Jellicent, many PU mons saw a drastic decline in viability, including many non-Scrappy Normal types. Munchlax is really bulky, but it currently has no observable niche over Type: Null. It's only niche, Thick Fat, was better back when Pyroar was still in the tier. Munchlax likes a more balanced tier where wallbreakers, Taunt users, and Ghost-types aren't everywhere. Unfortunately, PU is not like that.


Pinsir from B+ to B

Pinsir is another one of those "B+ mons that everyone leaves alone". In all honesty, Pinsir is not that great. The recent influx of threats like Jellicent, Scyther, Dodrio, and Quagsire should have made this thing drop a while ago.


Sandslash from D to Unranked

I hate to say it, but Sandslash isn't really viable. It lives in the shadow of its Alolan cousin who too can set rocks and spin, and has a solid defensive typing. Sandslash is eclipsed by Mudsdale in general, and large outshined by Claydol as a spinning Ground-type. Jellicent, which has proven to be a meta-defining mon, is the last straw.
have you tried the z hurricane set ? growth + z? shit really gets rid of it's answers and it's really amazing. it even puts in work in ou
 

UberSkitty

Ok now rank Cherrim
is a Pre-Contributor
Ok hi I'm here to nom some stuff ok let's go they'll be short this time I swear.


Alolan Persian: A- -> A
Just raise this mon to A rank already smh. It's rise to A- has already been discussed recently, but I'd say it should go further than that. It's able to offensively check top tier threats like Lycanroc and Dodrio and stop them from being able to sweep (Togedemaru comes to mind here too but that hates taking a +2 Sucker Punch from Lycanroc). Not only that, but its a great source of momentum with Parting Shot in this offensive metagame, and it can give setup mons like Lilligant and Omastar chances to set up and sweep, or even give them a second chance with Z-Parting Shot. It has some other cool support moves too with Taunt and Hypnosis. Meow wow!

Roselia: B -> B+
Another mon that's been recently nommed, so yeah a lotta those reasons apply here. It can switchin on a few top tier Special Attackers like Jellicent and Lilligant. While Spikes might not be as common as they were a while ago, they're still great to have in such an offensive metagame. Being immune to Sleep Powder, removing Toxic Spikes on switchin, reliable recovery, and access to Toxic Spikes if you really wanna run it are all pretty nice too. Overall, I'd say its deserving of more than B rank, so raise this flower that had too much flour to B+.

Ludicolo: B -> B+
Ludicolo is just a solid offensive threat. It has an amazing offensive typing and a solid movepool that give a good offensive matchup against several mons like Aggron, Jellicent, and Aurorus. While its stats do somewhat lack, its self-setting Rain Dance helps make up for this with the Speed boost and powered up Hydro Pump. It's also practically a staple on Rain Dance teams, and has some other fun options like Assault Vest to better check Jellicent and mixed to give it a better matchup against Roselia and whatnot (come at me). Open your eyes people, its British Duck party time.

Ok now some other noms I agree with.


Metang: C- ->C
Agreed, this mon is so good in DPP and ORAS. Oh yeah we're talking about USUM, woops. Either way, it's a nice switchin for stuff like Dodrio, Stoutland, Aurorus, ect. It has decent bulk alongside its Eviolite, and while it might be somewhat offensively passive, it can still pick up some important KOes like the OHKO on Lycanroc and 2HKO on Skuntank. Stealth Rock is also nice.

Cradily: C+ -> B-
I'm fine with this nom, since Cradily is a low key great switchin to Jellicent. While this is generally done better by Roselia, Cradily does have the bonus of not minding many Physical Attackers as much, most notably making Stoutland's Frustration less spammable (albeit it is OHKOed by Superpower). Stealth Rock is also nice.

Sandslash: D -> UR
Yeah, as much as I love its design, Sandslash is just so outclassed between Mudsdale, Alolan Sandslash, and even Claydol. I've heard it has some fun SD set but :shrug:

Hitmonchan: A- -> B+
That's right, I watch Untier Talk. Jellicent has just really screwed over Hitmonchan, as well as the rise in usage of other Fighting checks like Oricorio-Pom-Pom and Mudsdale. It's also a pretty mediocre Rapid Spinner, especially when compared to the two better choices in Alolan Sandslash and Kabutops. It has it's usual uses with its solid SpeDef and priority in Mach Punch which are always nice, but its just not A- levels of solid.

Clefairy: A- -> B+
That's right, I still watch Untier talk. Clefairy just doesn't appreciate the more offensive meta, especially with Special Attackers that it wants to check like Choice Specs Alolan Exeggutor and Jellicent being able to 2HKO it. And don't even get me started on the rise of Stoutland (Toxic it and gg). Again, still a fine mons between its ability to blanket check stuff, nice support moves like Stealth Rock, and run Calm Mind set, but it's just not A- material.

And now stuff I disagree with.


Mudsdale: A+ -> A
Imma have to disagree with this. Mudsdale is just a great answer for mons like Aggron as well as solid blanket check for many other physical attackers in the tier like Kangaskhan, especially with its ability in Stamina. While it's not some special niche Mudsdale has, Toxic+Protect is just so good on this mon for wearing down foes. I'd say this mon deserves to be on the same rank as Regirock. Stealth Rock is also nice.

Pinsir: B+ -> B
Nah, Pinsir is a fine setup mon. It has two great options between Z-Me First and SD, which both have their high points. Z-Me Fist can put in work against offensive teams, while SD is an amazing stall breaker. In both case, it can be pretty difficult to wall, with its high base Attack, solid STAB alongside pretty good coverage, and two great abilities. These all make it still a solid choice over Scyther, who does admittedly give it competition. Additionally, while things like Jellicent and Quagsire can suck for its Z-Me First set, its SD set is able to 2HKO both at +2, or OHKO with some previously acquired damage.
 
Last edited:
All I wanted to say about the current noms has been said so might as well nom a thing

eelektross.gif

A- to A
This might seem like a weird nom to make but I personally think that Eelektross should rise. It does an amazing job at messing with popular Balance cores such as Jelli + Mudsdale + Roselia with its amazing coverage options, making it pretty hard to switch into and it's able to beat traditional Electric checks like Lanturn and Mudsdale which makes spamming Volt Switch much easier. It also has some nice utility in Knock Off, allowing it to cripple mons reliant on their items like Roselia and Gurdurr. Some other meta trends also help it, like the rise of Oricorio Pom-Pom and Togedemaru, two popular mons it can check.
 
Random Troll Nom.

Jellicent from S to S+
This mon is absolutely amazing in what it does. It has two sets that fit in every playstyle. The other S tier noms are still good though, keep them S.

Also disagree in Hitmon drop. It can 2HKO Jellicent with TPunch which actually Is more common than Skuntank.
Plus Disagree in Pinsir Drop due to the same reasons as UberSkitty said.
Hope you like this.
 

Taskr

Peng Ting
is a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
PU Leader
Random Troll Nom.

Jellicent from S to S+
This mon is absolutely amazing in what it does. It has two sets that fit in every playstyle. The other S tier noms are still good though, keep them S.

Also disagree in Hitmon drop. It can 2HKO Jellicent with TPunch which actually Is more common than Skuntank.
Plus Disagree in Pinsir Drop due to the same reasons as UberSkitty said.
Hope you like this.
Right now there is no S+ rank in PU and no plans to have one either. S+ is generally reserved for Pokemon that make teams significantly worse when not using them and that is only really common in tiers like Ubers (Primal Groudon being the the example). Jellicent is a really good Pokemon and that's why it is S rank but it doesn't fit the criteria for S+ at all and probably never will.
 

Ktütverde

Always turning thoughts into things
is a Tiering Contributor
C- -> C+ (more than agree)
I know this seems weird, but I tried using this mon a bit and it is 10x better than what I expected. This mon alone handles mesprit, dodrio, stoutland, kangaskhan, lilligant, aggron + checks exeguttor, roselia, articuno which are mons we see a lot more since jelli dropped. It is a great niche mon, and C+ decently reflects how it handles the top tier threats while having stealth rock in its movepool. PS: bronzor is bad.

A- -> A : disagree
Persian remains a niche mon which doesn't shape the metagame at all imo. You only use it because dodrio, froslass and lycanrock are super annoying for balance/bulkyoffense, but otherwise it is a liability more often than not. It's bulk is ok, its speed is the only thing that makes it good along with parting shot. I just see this mon as a temporary trend: if dodrio wasn't here I really don't think it would have much usage. It needs the Z to be actually "good" (and u often need Z elsewhere), it doesn't pressure anything correctly, just a nice glue like poliwrath.

A- -> B+ disagree
Okay, I don't know how people use hitmonchan but this mon is a real threat. Checks lilligant, aurorus, aggron, sandslash, eelektross, lanturn + is a great spikes abuser+ has rapidspin. Qwilfish doesn't really handle it, froslass doesn't last very long; jellicent can't wall it even with a high defense investment. You can revengekill powerful mons like stoutland, kanga and lycanrock. Could we stop saying it doesn't spin that well? This mon can also break teams, revengekill stuff, check a shitload of toptierthreats and clean late game. With gurdurr, it shapes how teams are built (using multiple fighting resists) and is a pokemon that defines the PU metagame to a certain level. B+, no way.
 

Hitmonchan: A- -> B+ (agree)
Much like Clefairy and Weezing, Hitmonchan just can't keep up with the more offensive meta. With an increase in hard-hitting wallbreakers like Jellicent and Exeggutor-A, Hitmonchan can't afford to keep taking the hits it used to and balance teams as a whole are decreasing in value meaning Hitmonchan isn't nearly as splashable as it once was. Compared to before, he faces far more competition from Alolan Sandslash and Kabutops as spinners who better fit the more offensive archetype of teams.
Combine this with an inability to spin against the most common hazard setters without at minimum being heavily crippled in return (Mesprit, Qwilfish, Mudsdale, Froslass) and it really doesn't have the consistency as a spinner I'd come to expect from an A- Pokémon. Other A- Pokémon may have bad matchups, but I personally feel that a poor matchup for a wallbreaker tends not to be nearly as difficult to play around as a poor matchup for a spinner when we're in such a hazard-heavy meta.

Granted, Hitmonchan does have ways to beat some of its checks, using coverage such as Thunder Punch for Qwilfish and Jellicent, or Stone Edge for Froslass and Scyther.
Having said that, it often feels like you're choosing which Pokémon you want to lose to and Hitmonchan isn't overly powerful. It's strong, but not so strong it isn't fairly easy to scout coverage against. Again, its lack of consistency really makes it hard to splash on teams compared to the aforementioned Sandslash-A.

It's worth noting I've only covered Assault Vest. Life Orb Hitmonchan doesn't have as many troubles in terms of being walled but combining recoil with an inability to come in on all but weak attacks means Hitmonchan still doesn't live up to the consistency as a spinner it once had.

It's still a good Pokémon - hence why B+ is as low as I feel it should go right now. It offensively checks Aurorus, Omastar, Lycanroc, Aggron and some other fast sweepers/wallbreakers thanks to its typing and can still take hits from Lilligant and the like in an emergency.



Mudsdale: A+ -> A (disagree)
Mudsdale is just a great check for a lot of physical attackers right now with a decent amount of sustainability thanks to sets like Iapapa and RestTalk. It may face competition from Regirock in this role but it has an advantage in being able to better check Rock types like Lycanroc and Aggron as well as fighting types like Hitmonchan and Gurdurr. Like Jmash, I think Mudsdale and Regirock should remain on the same level right now seeing as how there's no clear advantage in using one over the other - it appears to be very dependant on what Pokémon you'd rather check.
Choice Band is also very cute.

I also agree with raising Persian-A to A and Leafeon to B but I don't feel I have enough experience with personally using either mon to comment on them just yet; I just wanted to throw it out there.
 

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