Resource USUM PU Viability Rankings

Megazard

The Piranha Plant of Super Staff Bros
is a member of the Site Staffis an official Team Rateris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Battle Server Moderator
PU Leader
Well it's been a month and 2 bans, but we're back to to change the VR! You can see how individual members voted (except Teddeh who was busy) here, just don't forget to click the link on the page to actually get to the graphs. Also Sandslash and Silvally-Poison aren't on there (weren't discussed until after Sandslash dropped, after I sent out the vote) and there are a couple of slight errors, like on Spiritomb.

Rises

Qwilfish A to A+
Kangaskhan A to A+
Froslass A to A+
Lilligant A to A+
Lycanroc A to A+
Stoutland A- to A
Scyther A- to A
Dugtrio-Alola B+ to A-
Mudsdale B+ to A-
Crabominable B to B+
Kabutops B to B+
Golurk B to B+
Tangela B- to B
Ludicolo B- to B
Rotom-F C+ to B
Victreebel C+ to B-
Sandslash Unranked to C
Simisear Unranked to D
Silvally Poison Unranked to D

The meta has become centralized around a particular group of threats, and we felt a large A+ rank was the best way to represent that. It's hard to deny that any of the rising Pokemon aren't hugely influential and threatening at the moment. Ground types are also on the rise, with Alolan Dugtrio, Mudsdale, and Golurk all getting much better recently. Mudsdale I think people know about but the other two tend to be really underrated as powerful threats with neat set variations and solid customization. Rotom-F gets the biggest bump of the update, but we also got 3 new additions to the rankings who deserve a mention. Sandslash is back, it wasn't good and doesn't seem to be especially good now, but Assault Vest is still a remover in a meta that could really use more of those so for now it's starting in C. Simisear is by no means great, but it is a notable Pyroar replacement and gives Ninetales some competition by not needing to set up to hit harder than a wet paper bag. Silvally Poison is probably a surprise since it didn't come up in the thread, but it's found its way onto quite a few stall builds recently as a fat defogger that can absorb Toxic Spikes and has a bit more utility than Skuntank thanks to Parting Shot. Like Simisear it's incredibly niche, but we felt it stood out enough with its consistent use on stall to warrant a rank. Shiinotic fans, I await your hatemail.

Drops

Spiritomb A+ to A
Clefairy A+ to A
Carracosta A to A-
Eelektross A to A-
Poliwrath A- to B+
Probopass B to B-
Musharna B to B-
Gourgeist-XL B to B-
Misdreavus B- to C+
Smeargle C+ to C
Crustle C+ to C-
Vigoroth C- to D
Gorebyss B- to Unranked
Gumshoos C- to Unranked

Spiritomb, Clefairy, Eelektross, Probopass and Musharna got a fair amount of discussion as just not living up to past meta potential, so I suppose that's one theme here. The other is being outclassed by new drops, as Carracosta has taken a large loss as only the second best Water/Rock type smasher, Misdreavus is no longer that one Ghost that can annoy Skuntank with Wisp and Dbond, Crustle faces heavy competition from Omastar as a lead with both Stealth Rock and Spikes, Vigoroth keeps being a worse Type: Null, Gumshoos was only ranked because we lost Stoutland for a hot second, and Gorebyss is really just bad Omastar. There's also Poliwrath, who's still really good because Aggron and Lycanroc are things, but without the 2 major things it checked it's harder to ignore just how weak it is.

Rejected
Code:
Skuntank S to A+
Aurorus A+ to S
Aggron A+ to S
Omastar A to A+
Hitmonchan A- to A
Abomasnow B to B+
Sableye B+ to B
Silvally-Water B- to B
Pinsir B+ to B
Mr. Mime C to B-
Shuckle C to C-/D
Heatmor Unranked to D
As for S rank, the council is in wait and see mode. There hasn't been an awful lot of PU since the Pyroar ban and moves to drop Skuntank or raise Aggron or Aurorus just feel premature and may not seem like good ideas a week or two from now. In particular, Skuntank is still really good and people seem to devalue just how solid special, scarf, AV, helmet, and band are in favor of hating on your basic physical defog utility. Most of the rest aren't too controversial, although the rest of council wasn't as sold on Silvally-Water's utility in a post-Pyroar and Kingler metagame. If you want something more in-depth about why the other nominations failed, or why above nominations went through, feel free to ask on discord, in the SQSA thread, or in my PMs. If I messed up moving around a Pokemon from the update though, please just tell me in PMs.

I'm going to start doing discussion points again, people didn't really respond to them a lot which is why they stopped the first time but maybe these will go over better. They're pretty much just things I or someone else on the council would like to see more opinions on. The same questions about S rank still hold. Also, Mudsdale A- to A, Zangoose B+ to B, Drampa B+ to B, and Crustle C- to Unranked.
 
Last edited:
B+ to B - Sure. Offensive sets lack the aspect of what makes Stoutland and Kangaskhan so good to begin with, which is by functioning as threats with similar levels of wallbreaking potential but without the need to dedicate themselves to predicting the Ghost-type switch in, a key point given the increased use of them thanks to their spinblocking utility in a hazard-based meta. Belly Drum sets can still be threatening but suffer from that same issue of Ghost-type prevalence and often require a lot more support than the other two Normals. It's hard to justify using Zangoose outside of specialized playstyles and support that enhance its play (Webs, Memento, Scrreens, etc.).

B+ to B - Disagree, sort of. I feel Drampa's in a decent spot rn thanks to Clef's decline, ability to function as a fairly dependable check to Lilligant, a breaker that takes advantage of some mainstream defensive Pokemon like Mesprit / Qwilfish / Mudsdale, and overall a mon whose defensive checks are operating less actively in the metagame than checks to Aurorus (stuff like av crab / spd slash / lanturn are way worse vs this than aurorus) or even Aggron on teams lately. It's also one of the few Choiced attackers that can completely fuck over stall, with little more support required aside from hazards. Pretty slept on, I'd say.

C- to Unranked - Yeah, Omastar just does the multi-hazard stack thing better than this and everything else thanks to its much greater immediate presence, better overall defog match up, and better match up against common leads barring maybe Mesprit. Shell Smash sets... yeah, same deal (at least with Gorebyss it and Omastar shares similar threat level and not being weak to Mach Punch can be occasionally useful, so if this is getting the UR Crustle can too).

A- to A - I feel that its lack of recovery kind of makes its blanket physical attack checking job a little harder than what it could be otherwise, but it checks a lot of relevant top threats and takes advantage of the most common scarfer in the tier (Togedemaru), as well as the second most splashable rocker in the tier (Regirock). Otherwise, in terms of EVs, moves, and items, Mudsdale is variable with what it can offer for teams, to the extent that it can even function as lures in match ups like Aurorus or Omastar with berries. Overall this gives it great functionality and is gradually allow it to act as a staple in the PU metagame. So, yeah, works for me.

On other things, Alolan Sandslash and Oricorio-Pom Pom could stand to move up a subrank from their current ranks due to what they contribute for role compression and threat level. AloSlash is obviously a big part of what makes Hail Offense a strong playstyle, and the Specially defensive set has gotten more traction thanks to its solid hazard-based utility and great function as a check to special attackers like Aurorus, Oricorio-G, and Mesprit. Pom has similar offensive presence and defensive utility to Oricorio-G that trades the ability to spinblock and do slightly better vs certain defensive Pokemon and Lilligant (and by that, Z-Hyper Beam being a factor) for a better Scyther and Oricorio-G match up.

Also let's stop the Sableye hate :[ it's much better than it's often given credit for.
 
Basculin from UR to C-/D


Its been a while since Kingler was banned, and while people have been using Floatzel instead, I have looked to other alternatives.

Basculins niche lies in its ability in Adaptability, which boosts its water STAB to the point where it easily overpowers other physical waters in the tier: which is to say, pretty much Floatzel. Its no Kingler, but It can cause a lot of havoc for teams without water resists, especially with hazards up. Its abilty to revenge top breakers like Aggron and Aurorus adds to this. In addition, it's much faster Kingler ever was, even passing the 95 speed benchmark that many several PU mons share.

Calcs:

252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Basculin Liquidation vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Weezing: 150-178 (44.9 - 53.2%) -- 87.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery

252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Basculin Liquidation vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Mesprit: 156-184 (42.8 - 50.5%) -- 94.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Basculin Liquidation vs. 252 HP / 64 Def Eviolite Gurdurr: 156-184 (41.7 - 49.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes

Water resists can be chipped by Basculin and have their switchins limited or even be 2HKOd!

252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Basculin Liquidation vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lanturn: 170-201 (43.4 - 51.4%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

-1 252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Basculin Liquidation vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Qwilfish: 83-98 (24.9 - 29.4%) -- 0.2% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock (Helmet damage sucks though, Please don't try to kill a healthy one)

-1 252 Atk Choice Band Basculin Zen Headbutt vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Qwilfish: 158-186 (47.4 - 55.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Its best set is Mixed LO by far, allowing Basculin to potenially take out Bulky grasses like Tangela and Gourgeist but banded is REALLY strong and can net those important 2HKOs as seen in the calcs earlier.

Basculin @ Life Orb
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Liquidation
- Superpower/Zen Headbutt
- Ice Beam
- Aqua Jet

Basculin-Blue-Striped (M) @ Choice Band
Ability: Adaptability
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive/Jolly Nature
- Liquidation
- Superpower/Zen Headbutt
- Crunch
- Aqua Jet

Here's some replays:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-805276613

After letting Primeape get chipped like an idiot, Basculin was able to easily clean my team using its powerful STAB and priority.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-803405708

The last 4 turns symbolize what LO basc is supposed to do, Hitting hard and fast, cancelling priority with its own.
 
Last edited:
Been a while but I just wanted to quickly nominate one Pokemon.


Alolan Raichu: B > B+ / A-

Alolan Raichu right now is actually very good. Meta shifts and changes have all been heavily in its favour to the point that a lot of teams pretty much lose to it right now. Ferroseed and Gastrodon leaving plus the massive decrease in Spiritomb usage have all be in favour of it, with it now having a free moveslot and Z-move thanks to Focus Blast no longer being a necessity; meaning you can either run Grass Knot or Substitute (yeah you miss out on Togedemaru but I don't see it switching into you anytime soon apart from revenge killing). Being able to run its signature Z-move is amazing for it as it's an extremely powerful nuke with basically zero switch-ins, bar a few things like Mudsdale which then just get bopped by Grass Knot. Even the Z-Celebrate set is semi-decent in the current meta as it has good enough coverage to sweep late-game. With the meta being more offensive, and with another similar Electric-type with a fantastic STAB combo (being Rotom-Frost) rising in viability, I think it's only fair that Alolan Raichu does the same; it can also heavily abuse Spikes stacking teams and use Spikes to basically net a kill or two most games.
 
Last edited:
First time giving this a go so here goes nothing.


Alolan Raichu
First I would like to express my support for Yogi's nomination, I have gotten the chance to use both regular and Alolan Raichu recently and have gotten a lot of experience with the two as of late. As I have only recently returned from a four or so year hiatus, Alolan Raichu has been a very effective part of my current team. In the current meta, It can hit just about everything for super effective damage and can really rip apart teams if it gets even one nasty plot up. The meta really favor's it right now and really allows it to get in there and do its job. There isn't much else for me to add that Yogi didn't already cover, but from my personal experience with A-Raichu I fully agree with Yogi's nomination.


Now I'd like to Nominate one.

Ninetails: D > C- / C


With the loss of Pyroar from the meta, I feel that Ninetails becomes more viable of an option as a result. Although nowhere near as powerful as Pyroar, Ninetail's can still accomplish a similar job to what Pyroar did to a lesser degree. Ninetails also hits many of it's checks and counters for rather good chunks, especially if running Firium-Z. It also hits many of the more commonly used Pokemon relatively hard as well, without set up with its ability to run Fire Blast/Psyshock/Energy Ball giving it excellent coverage in the current meta.
Mudsdale-
252 SpA Ninetales Inferno Overdrive (185 BP) vs. 132 HP / 0 SpD Mudsdale: 252-297 (67.3 - 79.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Ninetales Energy Ball vs. 132 HP / 0 SpD Mudsdale: 164-194 (43.8 - 51.8%) -- 14.1% chance to 2HKO
Hitmonchan-
252 SpA Ninetales Psyshock vs. 208 HP / 0 Def Hitmonchan: 156-184 (53.2 - 62.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Skuntank-
252 SpA Ninetales Inferno Overdrive (185 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Skuntank: 328-387 (94.2 - 111.2%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 SpA Ninetales Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Skuntank: 195-231 (56 - 66.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
Poliwrath-
252 SpA Ninetales Energy Ball vs. 112 HP / 0 SpD Poliwrath: 158-186 (45.2 - 53.2%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Gurdurr-
252 SpA Ninetales Inferno Overdrive (185 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Gurdurr: 255-300 (68.1 - 80.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Ninetales Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Gurdurr: 153-180 (40.9 - 48.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Aggron-
252 SpA Ninetales Inferno Overdrive (185 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Aggron: 331-391 (117.7 - 139.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Ninetales Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Aggron: 196-232 (69.7 - 82.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Lycanroc-
252 SpA Ninetales Energy Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Lycanroc: 204-240 (70.1 - 82.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Mesprit-
252 SpA Ninetales Inferno Overdrive (185 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mesprit: 211-249 (57.9 - 68.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Ninetales Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mesprit: 127-150 (34.8 - 41.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Qwilfish-
252 SpA Ninetales Psyshock vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Qwilfish: 146-172 (43.8 - 51.6%) -- 8.2% chance to 2HKO

Outside of Lycanroc, a few other mons and scarfers, Ninetails is also able to out-speed the majority of the higher usage Pokemon, all the calc's above are without Stealth Rock/other entry Hazards being introduced. All Calcs are also timid nature and without Ninetails getting up a nasty plot. If Ninetail's is able to get a switch in and is able to set up, it is capable of breaking through teams and battering them making it at times difficult to switch into multiple times. Lanturn/Entry Hazards, its frailty and lack of a bigger SpA base set of course hold Ninetails back. However I believe it is still worthy after the loss of Pyroar of at least being bumped up one rank with its ability to hit AV Chan relatively hard giving it the edge over it's closest comparable competition Simisear.
 
I'm not really a fan of posting in the VR since my grammar typically sucks and i hate misusing the intended meaning of my words but there are a few things i have wanted to do for a while here.


Poliwrath A-/A
Poliwrath is currently the best balance/bulky offense glue in the current meta and id like to address the reasoning for its drop to B+ as whats given just isn't solid enough for how reliable Poliwrath is right now
There's also Poliwrath, who's still really good because Aggron and Lycanroc are things, but without the 2 major things it checked it's harder to ignore just how weak it is.
There is no doubt that Poliwrath got its initial popularity through both Kingler and Pyroar however it has become more staple for bulky based teams with the departure of both, just through the multitude of threats that have gained popularity with Poliwrath either checking or straight countering Pokemon like Aurorus, Snowslash, Gurdurr, Omastar and the previously mentioned Aggron and Lycanroc

Addressing the latter part I am genuinely unsure how to respond to it being "weak" considering Poliwrath is one of the few walls that doesn't let in threats for free, Many would be offensive threats are either scared of the potential Scald burn or just being hit by Circle Throw relying on a forced Rest which even then holds risk for both players. I would definitely like Poliwrath to go back up to A- but I would also like to see discussion on it potentially joining A because quite frankly it is just that important and splashable for many builds currently.


There is no secret i have been thoroughly enjoying Ninetales.

Post Pyroar there was a ton of discussion in the PU Room and Discord about what Fire Types would "replace" Pyroar and obviously nothing does, However there is no denying certain Fire Types have shown viability even if it means for them to be in the lower ranks and quite frankly i find Ninetales to be an amazing pick up right now although not initially strong there is no denying that at +2 Ninetales is quite the threat being capable of breaking and even sweeping teams outright with its combination of Fire Blast/Energy Ball and Psyshock it is able to break past most would be counters with either Grassium Z or outright chunk/knock out others with Firium Z. There is also the Z-Hypnosis option over Psyshock which many know i just adore allowing Ninetales to out-speed would be checks like Duggy-A, Lycanroc and Scarf Primeape at the cost of not taking out AV Hitmonchan. C- at the least however i would like for it to potentially rise in the future

I would like to also post about a few more Pokemon like Jynx,Snowslash,Carracosta,Rapidash and more however this is about all I'm comfortable with for the moment. Enjoy
 
Last edited:
Okay, I'm back and I have what will most likely be a controversial nomination but a justified one, so here goes...


Froslass: A+ > S rank

Okay so, this will probably spark some debate and I'm hella happy if it does, but I believe Froslass is just fantastic at the moment. Froslass right now defines the tier's hazard game alongside fellow Spikes setter Qwilfish, but is often more versatile in its roles compared to Qwilfish. Froslass has a stupid amount of available utility that makes what set it's running not certain until you've scouted its moves, with Bulky, Offensive Spikes, Choice Specs, and even Choice Scarf all being more than viable options for it to run, with each set being able to tech different utility options depending on the team that it's being used on; dibs used Protect Bulky Froslass here to both scout and chip down the opponent's Pokemon.

I think one of the absolute main selling points is Froslass' ability to play the hazard war to its advantage 95% of the time, preventing both forms of removal with a combination of both its typing and its access to Taunt, plus its amazing speed tier which always lets it Taunt before removal. This means any good Froslass, especially Bulky Froslass, player can manipulate the hazard game to their advantage while shutting down the opponents removal throughout the match. This makes Froslass very obnoxious to play against, and certainly more troublesome in comparison to Qwilfish.

Froslass' great offensive typing combined with a decent Speed stat also makes more offensive sets viable, despite having a rather low Special Attack stat, meaning that it can still function as a good revenge killer with Spiking capabilities, along with having both Destiny Bond and Trick to KO or cripple the opponent's Pokemon.

Back onto the point about its great utility I've seen countless different sets that have put in work, ranging from Dib's Protect Bulky Froslass to Megazard's Z-Water Pulse Froslass successfully luring Aggron Turn 1 versus Hjad. It's a Pokemon that's very hard to tell what set it is from preview, and also one where guessing wrong can be costly, as seen with the previous replay too. This level of viable versatility really pushes it above the benchmark for A+, and I firmly believe that just the Bulky set alone pushes Froslass into S rank.
 
Last edited:

Ktütverde

Always turning thoughts into things
is a Tiering Contributor
I'm not really a fan of posting in the VR since my grammar typically sucks and i hate misusing the intended meaning of my words but there are a few things i have wanted to do for a while here.


Poliwrath A-/A
Poliwrath is currently the best balance/bulky offense glue in the current meta and id like to address the reasoning for its drop to B+ as whats given just isn't solid enough for how reliable Poliwrath is right now
There is no doubt that Poliwrath got its initial popularity through both Kingler and Pyroar however it has become more staple for bulky based teams with the departure of both, just through the multitude of threats that have gained popularity with Poliwrath either checking or straight countering Pokemon like Aurorus, Snowslash, Gurdurr, Omastar and the previously mentioned Aggron and Lycanroc

Addressing the latter part I am genuinely unsure how to respond to it being "weak" considering Poliwrath is one of the few walls that doesn't let in threats for free, Many would be offensive threats are either scared of the potential Scald burn or just being hit by Circle Throw relying on a forced Rest which even then holds risk for both players. I would definitely like Poliwrath to go back up to A- but I would also like to see discussion on it potentially joining A because quite frankly it is just that important and splashable for many builds currently.


There is no secret i have been thoroughly enjoying Ninetales.

Post Pyroar there was a ton of discussion in the PU Room and Discord about what Fire Types would "replace" Pyroar and obviously nothing does, However there is no denying certain Fire Types have shown viability even if it means for them to be in the lower ranks and quite frankly i find Ninetales to be an amazing pick up right now although not initially strong there is no denying that at +2 Ninetales is quite the threat being capable of breaking and even sweeping teams outright with its combination of Fire Blast/Energy Ball and Psyshock it is able to break past most would be counters with either Grassium Z or outright chunk/knock out others with Firium Z. There is also the Z-Hypnosis option over Psyshock which many know i just adore allowing Ninetales to out-speed would be checks like Duggy-A, Lycanroc and Scarf Primeape at the cost of not taking out AV Hitmonchan. C- at the least however i would like for it to potentially rise in the future

I would like to also post about a few more Pokemon like Jynx,Snowslash,Carracosta,Rapidash and more however this is about all I'm comfortable with for the moment. Enjoy
Poli isn't a mon you prepare for unlike mudsdale (imo), it remains a great glue but many teams are able to check aggron and snowslash+rain with other methods, even if they require more creativity atm. Imo B+ (and lower) is a nice place for mons that are good because they are able to check A ranks and therefore carve out a solid niche for themselves, but arent inherently threats you actually prepare for: see typenull and sableye, both B+. PU doesnt have a definition for each rank because the tradition is "PU does not use rank descriptions like some other tiers do. Each Pokemon in a rank should just be seen as above or under Pokemon in other ranks rather than needing to fit a certain set of criteria." , but my reasoning's conclusion would be not to make poli rise above B+ due to not being a threat like A- ranks are.
 

Granbull: C > C+

Been using Granbull a lot lately, pretty cool mon. Intimidate is a great ability that both improves Granbull's physical bulk and lets it hard counter Gurdurr and Hitmonchan, two mons that currently see very high usage in a very offensively focused meta. With 120 Attack and STAB in Play Rough this thing can also kill said Fighting-types or heavily dent switch-ins. Thunder Wave allows it to cripple fast setup sweepers like Scyther, and Heal Bell gives it additional utility. It can also threaten potential checks and switch-ins like Aggron or Skuntank with Ground-type coverage in Earthquake. The lack of recovery certainly hurts, but with a combination of Intimidate, a strong HP stat and a good defensive typing it's capable of taking plenty of hits, and dealing out plenty more.
 
Last edited:
Froslass for S is interesting and while I'm not sure it's quite there yet, I want to touch upon Qwilfish's comparison; I don't think the slight edge in set variety necessarily puts it a step ahead. In fact, I'd say they're entirely equal. While Froslass has the slight edge in Speed and versatility, Qwilfish's defensive presence and typing creates that "I wall/shut you down, force you out, and I do what I do best" effect to an often greater degree since it walls a lot more Pokemon just by its typing, usable bulk, and access to Intimidate in a way that Froslass lacks in similar situations. This gives it much safer opportunities to carry out its Spiking and utility most of the time, while Froslass is mostly about its extra Speed and unpredictability. Qwilfish also absorbs TSpikes, which is still a very strong thing to account for given its own access to TSpikes and Weezing's viability. Otherwise, their utility is mostly the same (barring Wisp and TSpikes, respectively) and so whatever point is in the favor for one with this aspect also applies to the other much of the time.

There's also Qwil's presence for rain, which is one of the biggest reasons why Rain is ridiculous right now. Otherwise, they fit well in about any archetype, and Spikes are busted (see: Ferroseed back then. Speaking of which, this also proves that "lesser" versatility isn't an issue to begin with). Either way, these two are the most defining A+ Pokemon and imo are equal to where one shouldn't go S without the other.
 

UberSkitty

Ok now rank Cherrim
is a Pre-Contributor
After over 9 months. 34 Teams. A cancelled analysis. And a lot of hax. Was I way too dedicated? Yes. Was it worth it? Probably not Yes. So here we go, with no bias at all:

Duosion: Unranked -> C/C-
In a metagame with so many hazards, Duosion thrives thanks to its ability in Magic Guard. On top of giving Duosion an immunity to hazards, Magic Guard also makes it immune to other forms of chip damage like Toxic, Leech Seed, and Hail, which makes it a snazzy bulky setup sweeper. There are a solid amount of foes it threatens out, such as Hitmonchan, Lanturn, and Altaria (non-Haze), which can give it a good opportunity to set up. It also has an impressive base 125 Special Attack, which gives it some nice immediate offensive pressure, notably having a decent matchup against many Taunt users. Although its natural bulk can be lacking, its Eviolite alongside access to both Calm Mind and Acid Armor help make up for that. Its also slow, but that just gives it an even better matchup against Trick Room! Finally, it can be somewhat prediction based at times, knowing what the opponent will switch into when Duosion hits the field so you can set up accordingly, but that's assuming they have multiple potential switchins. And if you can get that right, Duosion can put in work.

The Set:

Jake (Duosion) @ Eviolite
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psyshock
- Calm Mind
- Acid Armor
- Recover

Yep, not physically defensive with Signal Beam. While that can work too, I've found that specially defensive gives Duosion a better matchup against some top-tier threats like Aurorus, Oricorio-Sensu, and Froslass, which can otherwise beat physically defensive. Running specially defensive also pairs better with Acid Armor, which gives +2 in physical defense, compared to Calm Mind only giving +1 in special defense. You can also still beat physical wallbreakers like Stoutland and Golurk in certain circumstances if you predict correctly. While Signal Beam sets can 1v1 non-Crunch Skuntank and Pursuit Spiritomb and catch other Dark-types on the switch, I still personally prefer specially defensive's ability to beat those previously stated mons. The rest is pretty standard, with Eviolite giving it decent bulk, Recover allowing it to heal itself, and Psyshock letting it better 1v1 other Calm Mind users like Clefairy. Also Jake cuz Jake.

The Competition:

A major thing that has been holding back Duosion is its competition with certain other Calm Mind users. However, it does have its various niches that justifies using it over them. It's also notable that Dusion beats all of them 1v1, bar hax and maybe some uncommon stuff that I'm too lazy to calc.

Clefairy is another Magic Guard mon, but Duosion has a much higher Special Attack stat. This gives it a much better matchup against Taunt users, which often completely shut down Clefairy, being able to 2HKO bulky Froslass, bulky Oricorio-Sensu, and Oricorio-Pom-Pom if it manages to even get one Calm Mind up. Even if it can't get one at up first, it can still 3HKO Froslass and create mind games against both Oricorios in whether to use Taunt or Roost once Taunt wears off. Furthermore, Duosion's Psychic-typing gives it a much better matchup against two very common Taunt users in Qwilfish and Weezing. Duosion also has Acid Armor, which allows it to not be easily broken through by most physical attackers like Clefairy is, unless it wants to run Cosmic Power.

Musharna shares Duosion's Psychic typing, but can be easily worn down. Since it lacks Magic Guard, Musharna is susceptible to Toxic, Leech Seed, and hazards. It also has a much less reliable form of recovery in Moonlight, which on top of having less PP than Duosion's Recover, leaves Musharna even more easily worn down through Hail, which is pretty common in a meta with both Aurorus and Abomasnow. It also has less Special Attack and therefore immediate power than Duosion, albeit much less so than Clefairy.

Mesprit is a more offensive Calm Mind user, and while this does give it various qualities Duosion lacks, it simultaneously gives Duosion more niches over it. Mesprit lacks solid recovery, usually doesn't invest in bulk, and has no way to boost its physical defense, which makes it much easier to wear down and revenge kill. It can run its uncommon Substitute Calm Mind set to play around some of this stuff, but still has its problems with Substitute wearing it down and runs less Special Attack, giving it less offensive presence.

The Other Problems:

Just some other stuff that holds Duosion back.
(and so on)
Dark-types can completely stop Duosion due to being immune to its only attacking move. They can also run Taunt to stop it from setting up, use Knock Off to remove its Eviolite, Pursuit trap it, or use it as setup fodder themselves. While this can be difficult for Duosion to play around on its own, its another benefit Duosion has from the hazard-filled meta. Many Dark-types like Alolan Raticate are easily worn down through having to switch in too much, and even ones with recovery like Sableye have to watch out for Toxic Spikes. Skuntank is kinda odd here since while it will often be the opposing team's form of hazard removal, it simultaneously can't rely on teammates to remove the hazards for it. You can also just run Signal Beam, but even then it can't beat things like Crotomb.
(and so on)
Trick and Switcheroo users can stop Duosion pretty well, locking it into a single move. However, if you can manage to lure it earlier in the game, meaning they lose their Choice item, they are much less threatening. While they can still remove Duosion's Eviolite, which does suck, I've found that Duosion still can function decently, which is why there isn't an entire Knock Off section here. Also Choice Specs Duosion can put in work, just saying.
(and so on)
Hax. They're kinda inevitable, but can really screw over Duosion. Crits just ignore its defense boosts, and other things like being Frozen can be easily taken advantage of by the opponent. The mons shown above are just a few that I remember destroying my dreams while trying to get replays. But similar can be said about most bulky setup mons bar, like, Type: Null with crits, but otherwise hax are pretty much out of your control.

The Calculations:


0 SpA Duosion Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Oricorio-Sensu: 141-166 (39.8 - 46.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 0 SpA Duosion Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Oricorio-Sensu: 210-247 (59.3 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 0 SpA Oricorio-Sensu Supersonic Skystrike (185 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Duosion: 193-228 (57.7 - 68.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
If Duosion can manage to get a Calm Mind up before Oricorio-Sensu comes in, or play around its Taunt with Taunt vs Roost mind games, Duosion can beat bulky Oricorio-Sensu.
0 SpA Duosion Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Oricorio-Sensu: 141-166 (48.4 - 57%) -- 90.6% chance to 2HKO
+1 0 SpA Duosion Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Oricorio-Sensu: 210-247 (72.1 - 84.8%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Oricorio-Sensu Revelation Dance vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Duosion: 158-188 (47.3 - 56.2%) -- 82% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Oricorio-Sensu Revelation Dance vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Duosion: 108-128 (32.3 - 38.3%) -- 95.8% chance to 3HKO
It can also beat offensive Oricorio-Sensu if it can get a Calm Mind up beforehand.

0 SpA Duosion Psyshock vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Froslass: 141-166 (41.1 - 48.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 0 SpA Duosion Psyshock vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Froslass: 210-247 (61.2 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Froslass Hex (65 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Duosion: 78-92 (23.3 - 27.5%) -- 64.1% chance to 4HKO
0 SpA Froslass Hex (130 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Duosion: 152-182 (45.5 - 54.4%) -- 53.5% chance to 2HKO
0 SpA Froslass Hex (130 BP) vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Duosion: 102-122 (30.5 - 36.5%) -- 58.8% chance to 3HKO
Similar to Oricorio-Sensu, Froslass loses to Duosion 1v1 even with Taunt, especially after one Calm Mind.
0 SpA Duosion Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Froslass: 141-166 (50.1 - 59%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 0 SpA Duosion Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Froslass: 210-247 (74.7 - 87.9%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Froslass Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Duosion: 126-150 (37.7 - 44.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Froslass Shadow Ball vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Duosion: 84-102 (25.1 - 30.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 SpA Froslass Never-Ending Nightmare (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Duosion: 248-294 (74.2 - 88%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Froslass Never-Ending Nightmare (160 BP) vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Duosion: 168-198 (50.2 - 59.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Also similar to Oricorio-Sensu, Duosion can play around offensive Froslass, although has to watch out for the rare Z-Shadow Ball set if it hasn't gotten a Calm Mind up.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Aurorus Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Duosion: 160-190 (47.9 - 56.8%) -- 90.6% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Aurorus Blizzard vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Duosion: 108-127 (32.3 - 38%) -- 95.6% chance to 3HKO
Although it risks hax between the Freeze and crit chance, Duosion can take a Blizzard, set up a Calm Mind, take another, heal up, and go from there.

0 SpA Duosion Psyshock vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Qwilfish: 236-282 (70.8 - 84.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 0 SpA Duosion Psyshock vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Qwilfish: 356-420 (106.9 - 126.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Duosion just bops Qwilfish.

0 SpA Duosion Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 224+ Def Weezing: 134-162 (40.1 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
+1 0 SpA Duosion Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 224+ Def Weezing: 204-240 (61 - 71.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
0 SpA Weezing Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Duosion: 57-67 (17 - 20%) -- possible 5HKO
Although it doesn't do as much to Weezing as it does to Qwilfish, Duosion still wins the 1v1 with ease.

+6 0 SpA Duosion Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Clefairy: 493-582 (143.3 - 169.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+6 0 SpA Clefairy Moonblast vs. +6 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Duosion: 45-54 (13.4 - 16.1%) -- possible 7HKO
Duosion pretty much uses Calm Mind Clefairy as setup fodder, assuming there aren't any crits.

+6 0 SpA Duosion Psyshock vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Musharna: 166-196 (38.1 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+6 8 SpA Musharna Psyshock vs. +6 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Duosion: 54-63 (16.1 - 18.8%) -- possible 6HKO
+6 8 SpA Musharna Dazzling Gleam vs. +6 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Duosion: 41-49 (12.2 - 14.6%) -- possible 7HKO
+6 8 SpA Musharna Twinkle Tackle (160 BP) vs. +6 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Duosion: 81-96 (24.2 - 28.7%) -- 98.9% chance to 4HKO
Similar to Clefairy, Duosion basically uses Musharna as setup fodder, but again without crits.

252+ Atk Choice Band Stoutland Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Duosion: 282-333 (84.4 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Stoutland Return vs. +2 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Duosion: 142-168 (42.5 - 50.2%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Stoutland Return vs. +4 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Duosion: 94-112 (28.1 - 33.5%) -- 0.2% chance to 3HKO

252+ Atk Silk Scarf Kangaskhan Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Duosion: 240-283 (71.8 - 84.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Silk Scarf Kangaskhan Double-Edge vs. +2 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Duosion: 120-142 (35.9 - 42.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ Atk Iron Fist Golurk Shadow Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Duosion: 288-342 (86.2 - 102.3%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Iron Fist Golurk Shadow Punch vs. +2 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Duosion: 146-174 (43.7 - 52%) -- 10.2% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Iron Fist Golurk Shadow Punch vs. +4 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Duosion: 98-116 (29.3 - 34.7%) -- 8.1% chance to 3HKO
Stoutland, Kangaskhan, and Golurk are all examples of mons that usually beat Duosion 1v1, but lose if it manages to get up an Acid Armor beforehand.

140+ Atk Hitmonchan Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Duosion: 109-129 (32.6 - 38.6%) -- 98.9% chance to 3HKO
140+ Atk Hitmonchan Stone Edge vs. +2 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Duosion: 55-65 (16.4 - 19.4%) -- possible 6HKO

252+ SpA Lanturn Scald vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Duosion: 67-79 (20 - 23.6%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Lanturn Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Duosion: 136-162 (40.7 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Lanturn Hydro Pump vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Duosion: 91-108 (27.2 - 32.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

0 SpA Altaria Dragon Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Duosion: 45-54 (13.4 - 16.1%) -- possible 7HKO
Hitmonchan, Lanturn, and Altaria are just some examples of mons Duosion can use as an opportunity to setup.

The Replays:

Good replays (Recent and relevant in the current metagame):
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-800363536
Although this is admittedly a battle with physically defensive Duosion, it displays playing around Mesprit's Trick and Duosion still winning even with its Eviolite removed.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-809700615
I played pretty bad in this match, but still ends with someone cleaning with Duosion so oh well.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-809900135
While this was slightly haxy and the end is just a dragged match, it displays Duosion beating bulky Oricorio-Sensu and technically picks up the last KO. You also get to see some of my terrible team rating.

Old Replays (From a while ago but still include only currently legal mons by complete chance):
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-675481262
Yep, the replay from the original post. That's all.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-753231441
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-753354731
Its against a somewhat memey team, but still a solid player.

Outdated Replays (Old and also include currently illegal mons, but are against solid teams/players and they still show Duosion sweeping so might as well include them):
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-697406381
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-706659807
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-683669680
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-685701049
PP stall yay.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-698392100
While I didn't win this last one, Duosion did pretty much win if it weren't for the crit.

Bad Replays (Against pretty bad teams, but again might as well include them cuz Duosion sweeps yay):
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-792648954
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-792646256
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-685701742
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-684246098
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-683661911

Overall, Duosion can really put in work if used correctly. Wait, that's every mon, frik. Lemme try this again. Duosion's ability in Magic Guard alongside its high Special Attack, reliable recovery, and great setup options make it an overall solid mon.

By the way, reserving Duosion. Bop.
 
Last edited:
Slaking -> D rank

While, after playing numerous games with this monkey, I agree that hes pretty suboptimal, that he lets every other mon in the tier set up, and requires the use of whirlwind support like vullaby or some other low tier garbage, I still believe he merits a position in D-rank, as he generally provides more value than he detracts (LOL). All jokes aside if you correctly predict 100 percent of the time with the choice band set this guy is a monster, as between return, EQ, play rough and Night Slash, he has the potential to OHKO about 95% of the tier. He can even run focus punch to smack avaluggs and instakill regirock, or normalium to kill weezing. For comparison here's some calcs:

Mudsdale's pretty fat:
252+ Atk Choice Band Slaking Return vs. 132 HP / 0 Def Mudsdale: 321-378 (85.8 - 101%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

An unboosted physical attack ohkoing avalugg is unheard of:
252+ Atk Choice Band Slaking Focus Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 290-342 (73.6 - 86.8%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

The weezing:

252+ Atk Slaking Breakneck Blitz (200 BP) vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Weezing: 285-336 (85.3 - 100.5%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery

Offensive teams have a horrible time:
252+ Atk Choice Band Slaking Return vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mesprit: 306-361 (101.6 - 119.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Slaking Night Slash vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Zangoose: 221-260 (77 - 90.5%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and toxic damage
252+ Atk Choice Band Slaking Return vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Skuntank: 444-523 (127.5 - 150.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Slaking has the potential to demolish offense teams when coupled with a viable u-turn slow pivot that can also phase(aka vullaby), ensuring that after aggron is removed it will kill something with nearly every attack. I'm sure if I ran probopass my winrate would be much much higher, but honestly im kinda too lazy to switch now.

Other stuff: Slaking carried me to mid tier with a >70 percent winrate, which is not bad for a first time pu player amirite.

Carried in a fight vs top ladder (top 100) player and won the game singlehandedly: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-810262737

Please, do not hate on slaking. He only wants to make a small dent in the metagame and putting him in D-rank will help him and aspiring young players to achieve their passions. OK fr tho look at some of the D rank mons and tell me a well played slaking couldn't do better. U won't. xD

Edit: Somehow vullaby isnt even on here and im wondering how. With whirlwind, vullaby checks most mesprits, scythers, a plethora of generic physical attackers, completely hardcounters lilligant due to overcoat, softchecks cm sensu, and checks band basculin , taking considerably under 50 percent from a band liquidation. Also it has defog which is always welcome and helps it out vs the common mesprit. Besides this, vullaby isnt even taunt fodder as it has the option to use foul play or knock off. It can also use U-turn to help shift momentum, taunt to stop a slower toxic or rocks, tailwind to help an offensive team, or timer the opponent with toxic. While it doesnt get wish or heal bell like togetic, it has so many more viable options and doesnt get completely invalidated by taunt. Seems fit for d tier at least.

Edit: Oh i forgot to mention: yea fake out and protect kinda cuck slaking over. Thats why its recommended to run a taunt mon or second breaker to ease that particular pain. You do get a lot of free switches on protects tho.
 
Last edited:
Slaking -> D rank

While, after playing numerous games with this monkey, I agree that hes pretty suboptimal, that he lets every other mon in the tier set up, and requires the use of whirlwind support like vullaby or some other low tier garbage, I still believe he merits a position in D-rank, as he generally provides more value than he detracts (LOL). All jokes aside if you correctly predict 100 percent of the time with the choice band set this guy is a monster, as between return, EQ, play rough and Night Slash, he has the potential to OHKO about 95% of the tier. He can even run focus punch to smack avaluggs and instakill regirock, or normalium to kill weezing. For comparison here's some calcs:

Mudsdale's pretty fat:
252+ Atk Choice Band Slaking Return vs. 132 HP / 0 Def Mudsdale: 321-378 (85.8 - 101%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

An unboosted physical attack ohkoing avalugg is unheard of:
252+ Atk Choice Band Slaking Focus Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 290-342 (73.6 - 86.8%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

The weezing:

252+ Atk Slaking Breakneck Blitz (200 BP) vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Weezing: 285-336 (85.3 - 100.5%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery

Offensive teams have a horrible time:
252+ Atk Choice Band Slaking Return vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mesprit: 306-361 (101.6 - 119.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Slaking Night Slash vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Zangoose: 221-260 (77 - 90.5%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and toxic damage
252+ Atk Choice Band Slaking Return vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Skuntank: 444-523 (127.5 - 150.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Slaking has the potential to demolish offense teams when coupled with a viable u-turn slow pivot that can also phase(aka vullaby), ensuring that after aggron is removed it will kill something with nearly every attack. I'm sure if I ran probopass my winrate would be much much higher, but honestly im kinda too lazy to switch now.

Other stuff: Slaking carried me to mid tier with a >70 percent winrate, which is not bad for a first time pu player amirite.

Carried in a fight vs top ladder (top 100) player and won the game singlehandedly: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-810262737

Please, do not hate on slaking. He only wants to make a small dent in the metagame and putting him in D-rank will help him and aspiring young players to achieve their passions. OK fr tho look at some of the D rank mons and tell me a well played slaking couldn't do better. U won't. xD

Edit: Somehow vullaby isnt even on here and im wondering how. With whirlwind, vullaby checks most mesprits, scythers, a plethora of generic physical attackers, completely hardcounters lilligant due to overcoat, softchecks cm sensu, and checks band basculin , taking considerably under 50 percent from a band liquidation. Also it has defog which is always welcome and helps it out vs the common mesprit. Besides this, vullaby isnt even taunt fodder as it has the option to use foul play or knock off. It can also use U-turn to help shift momentum, taunt to stop a slower toxic or rocks, tailwind to help an offensive team, or timer the opponent with toxic. While it doesnt get wish or heal bell like togetic, it has so many more viable options and doesnt get completely invalidated by taunt. Seems fit for d tier at least.

Edit: Oh i forgot to mention: yea fake out and protect kinda cuck slaking over. Thats why its recommended to run a taunt mon or second breaker to ease that particular pain. You do get a lot of free switches on protects tho.
Hey! While I do agree that Slaking hits hard. I would have to disagree with the point that "he generally provides more value than he detracts." While its high stats (especially attack) and pretty great movepool are great things going for it. It honestly all falls apart once you realize Truant makes it completely outclassed by other hard hitting normals like Stoutland, Kangaskhan, Raticate-alola, Zangoose, ect.

I think you're underestimating just how bad Truant really is. In a breaker & set up sweeper heavy meta like this, letting something like Lycanroc, Aggron, Lilligant, and many more in for free is insanely bad. I understand that, yeah you're hitting something hard. But the risk vs reward 99.9% of the time is completely in your opponents favor. You can't even threaten them with any damage for a whole turn. Not to mention how much of a momentum drain it is. Having to switch out every single 2nd turn its in. Switching is a risky thing in pokemon, and being FORCED to do it is insanely bad.

Slaking also requires almost pin point perfect predictions to do well in some matchups, because of its inability to attack the 2nd turn. While of course CB Stoutland (being Slakings #1 competition) has to predict when your opponent has for example, a rock or steel type. Scrappy allows Stoutland to hit ghosts, allowing it to just ignore ever clicking a non stab move against a whole type. Which is insanely good, and makes Stoutland's stabs insanely spammable. Something Slaking lacks.

Stoutland and Kangaskhan being the main normal breakers at the moment (along with the ones I mentioned near the beginning) just don't have these glaring flaws that Slaking has. I don't usually make responses but I heavily disagree with Slaking ever being ranked. Feel free to respond if you have any problems with what I said, or just wanna continue the discussion!
 
Hey! While I do agree that Slaking hits hard. I would have to disagree with the point that "he generally provides more value than he detracts." While its high stats (especially attack) and pretty great movepool are great things going for it. It honestly all falls apart once you realize Truant makes it completely outclassed by other hard hitting normals like Stoutland, Kangaskhan, Raticate-alola, Zangoose, ect.

I think you're underestimating just how bad Truant really is. In a breaker & set up sweeper heavy meta like this, letting something like Lycanroc, Aggron, Lilligant, and many more in for free is insanely bad. I understand that, yeah you're hitting something hard. But the risk vs reward 99.9% of the time is completely in your opponents favor. You can't even threaten them with any damage for a whole turn. Not to mention how much of a momentum drain it is. Having to switch out every single 2nd turn its in. Switching is a risky thing in pokemon, and being FORCED to do it is insanely bad.

Slaking also requires almost pin point perfect predictions to do well in some matchups, because of its inability to attack the 2nd turn. While of course CB Stoutland (being Slakings #1 competition) has to predict when your opponent has for example, a rock or steel type. Scrappy allows Stoutland to hit ghosts, allowing it to just ignore ever clicking a non stab move against a whole type. Which is insanely good, and makes Stoutland's stabs insanely spammable. Something Slaking lacks.

Stoutland and Kangaskhan being the main normal breakers at the moment (along with the ones I mentioned near the beginning) just don't have these glaring flaws that Slaking has. I don't usually make responses but I heavily disagree with Slaking ever being ranked. Feel free to respond if you have any problems with what I said, or just wanna continue the discussion!
I agree with most of what you said, but as you said stoutland and kanga are good and theyre nowhere near D rank.
 

Rabia

IM ME, I DO ME, AND I CHILL
is a Contributor to Smogon
I agree with most of what you said, but as you said stoutland and kanga are good and theyre nowhere near D rank.
While there is clearly a huge discrepancy between the A ranks and D rank, that doesn't mean we should rank anything for the sake of it having some niche. When evaluating whether or not something is worth ranking, an important factor is competition. The fact Slaking faces so much competition from more viable Normal-type wallbreakers like Kangaskhan and Stoutland is why it's considered unviable and not worth ranking. Sure, Slaking is bulkier and hits harder, but its ability makes it not worth using under any circumstances. D-rank Pokemon should have some very obscure niche that you can build around. Slaking does not fit that bill; there is no reason to use it over other Normal-types as a wallbreaker.
 
Froslass for S is interesting and while I'm not sure it's quite there yet, I want to touch upon Qwilfish's comparison; I don't think the slight edge in set variety necessarily puts it a step ahead. In fact, I'd say they're entirely equal. While Froslass has the slight edge in Speed and versatility, Qwilfish's defensive presence and typing creates that "I wall/shut you down, force you out, and I do what I do best" effect to an often greater degree since it walls a lot more Pokemon just by its typing, usable bulk, and access to Intimidate in a way that Froslass lacks in similar situations. This gives it much safer opportunities to carry out its Spiking and utility most of the time, while Froslass is mostly about its extra Speed and unpredictability. Qwilfish also absorbs TSpikes, which is still a very strong thing to account for given its own access to TSpikes and Weezing's viability. Otherwise, their utility is mostly the same (barring Wisp and TSpikes, respectively) and so whatever point is in the favor for one with this aspect also applies to the other much of the time.

There's also Qwil's presence for rain, which is one of the biggest reasons why Rain is ridiculous right now. Otherwise, they fit well in about any archetype, and Spikes are busted (see: Ferroseed back then. Speaking of which, this also proves that "lesser" versatility isn't an issue to begin with). Either way, these two are the most defining A+ Pokemon and imo are equal to where one shouldn't go S without the other.
One of the absolute best selling points for Froslass is that it's basically impossible to stop it setting hazards and, against a good player, even harder to remove them. You talk about Qwilfish having a defensive quality of "I wall/shut you down, force you out, and I do what I do best", but my lord does Bulky Froslass, and the other sets to a lesser extent, do that. While Qwilfish does deter hazard removal, a well-played Froslass all but removes the ability to do so. If I wanted to with a Hitmonchan, I could come in versus Qwilfish, get rid of 3 Spikes, 2 Toxic Spikes, and Stealth Rock, with the trade of losing Hitmonchan or trading it for two layers or one layer of Spikes; I cannot do that with Froslass. I 100% disagree with Qwilfish being equal to Froslass right now, even if it does have the niche of Toxic Spikes.
 
Hello, it's me again and I'm here to talk about some underused Pokemon in the current meta!


Metang D > C-/C

While I'm certain I'll have a large amount of bias towards this Pokemon, it's undeniable that the meta is far more favourable towards it in comparison to previous metas. Gone are things like Ferroseed and Gastrodon and in their place Pokemon like Qwilfish and Froslass. Being able to threaten and/or check Qwilfish, Aggron, Lycanroc, Froslass, Skuntank, Aurorus, etc. is far better than what most of the other D ranks offer. I'm not saying it's anything amazing and that it can reliably keep on coming in against these Pokemon, but as a blanket check I think it deserves better. Bullet Punch, Earthquake along with a good typing just gives it enough of an edge right now.


Kabutops B+ > A-

Really the last tier shift boosted the viability of basically every Rock-type, and Kabutops is no exception. While I rate the Rain and Swords Dance sets, I feel like the Choice Scarf just got so much better. Yes it still does have a few issues locking itself in to Rapid Spin, but being able to threaten almost every setter in the tier whilst also avoiding Destiny Bond from both Qwilfish and Froslass makes it decent glue for offense and balance team alike. It's also a great option for Froslas Spikes stack teams as being able to check Skuntank, Lycanroc, etc. makes it a very notable partner. Rock- and Water-attacks are also pretty spammable right now with there being basically no resists, outside of Poliwrath, to both. You can also put it on teams to deal with the increasingly common Rain teams running around on the ladder. Yeah, this should definitely rise.
 
Last edited:


Electrode: Unranked >D

Electrode is a mon that I believe deserves at least the rank of D because of the Choice Specs set alone. With its 150-base speed and Spec’s, it is the best volt switcher in the tier. It’s volt switch is not only a momentum builder but also a very hard-hitting move on some of the more common mons of the tier. It does even healthy chunks of damage to the likes of AV Chan. The biggest issue it faces are mons like Togedamaru, Mudsdale, Golurk, Lanturn, Eelektross and Dugtrio-A. However, for the majority of pokemon that are not either a bulky grass type or completely immune to Volt Switch it hits hard and creates momentum at the same time. Here are some calc’s against some of the more used mons within the tier.
.
Gurdurr-
252+ SpA Choice Specs Electrode Thunder vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Gurdurr: 246-291 (65.7 - 77.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Hitmonchan-
252+ SpA Choice Specs Electrode Volt Switch vs. 208 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Hitmonchan: 84-100 (28.6 - 34.1%) -- 1.9% chance to 3HKO
Skuntank-
252+ SpA Choice Specs Electrode Volt Switch vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Skuntank: 204-240 (58.6 - 68.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
Raichu-A-
252+ SpA Choice Specs Electrode Volt Switch vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Raichu-Alola: 78-92 (29.8 - 35.2%) -- 19.4% chance to 3HKO
Aggron-
252+ SpA Choice Specs Electrode Volt Switch vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Aggron: 205-243 (72.9 - 86.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Aurorus-
252+ SpA Choice Specs Electrode Volt Switch vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Aurorus: 145-172 (37.4 - 44.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Sandslash-A-
252+ SpA Choice Specs Electrode Volt Switch vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Sandslash-Alola: 193-228 (66 - 78%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Lilligant-
252+ SpA Choice Specs Electrode Volt Switch vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Lilligant: 86-102 (30.6 - 36.2%) -- 50.6% chance to 3HKO
Clefairy-
252+ SpA Choice Specs Electrode Volt Switch vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Clefairy: 85-102 (24.7 - 29.6%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO
Frolass-
252+ SpA Choice Specs Electrode Volt Switch vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Froslass: 181-214 (64.4 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Mesprit-
252+ SpA Choice Specs Electrode Volt Switch vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mesprit: 130-154 (35.7 - 42.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
With the rise of rain teams in the tier, it also can fit into these teams as a viable setter and an abuser thanks to its second highest in the tier base speed and 100% Thunder. It’s biggest issue that comes with having the second highest base speed in the tier is its fragility and vulnerability to be worn down by rock’s and picked off by priority moves. However even with those two issues, I still believe it’s base speed/volt switch/specs combination, it's ability to fit into rain teams as a setter/abuser and it's ability of being able to be a fast double screener warrants it being moved up from unranked to at least D as it has at least three sets and roles it can fulfill at a viable level.
 

Many

Impetuous and silly
is a Tiering Contributor
Froslass to S- Agree. Froslass is as difficult to switch into as any pokemon that has ever had 80 SpA. Furthermore, its fantastic speed tier and ability to consistently set and keep up hazards defines the meta.

Spiritomb from A to A-. This might seem like a weird nom considering how dominant Tomb used to be, but it has had a decent fall from grace. The trapping set can actually be a bit passive in this fast-paced meta without a strong STAB move and bait for pokemon like Lilligant and Qwilfish. If a team doesn't need the extra fighting check, Skunk really does outclass it in many occasions due to its speed tier and Tspikes absorption. As for CM sets, they are highly underrated but not really A level either with the prevalence of Taunt and strong pokemon like Aggron.

Persian-Alola from B+ to A. Big jump but I feel like it's well deserved. Froslass's speed tier defines the meta so considering Persian-A outspeeds it is automatically in a great spot. Furthermore, Foul Play is very offensively threatening right now just scrolling through the VR. Combined with Parting Shot it can be an absolute menace to the offensive squads running around. Nasty Plot is also an underrated set that can often sweep entire teams, especially considering the drop in usage of Clefairy.

Raichu-Alola from B to A-. Agree. +1 to everything yogi has said. This shouldn't be in B, it's too potent to both offensive and balanced teams. The only thing holding this pokemon back from going any higher is the usage of Scarf Toge and the prevalence of Sucker Skunk/Tomb.

Altaria from A- to B+. Alt's really not a bad pokemon at all and it has a solid niche, but it really is quite passive at times and isn't the most optimal hazard remover in a meta where Taunt Qwilfish and Froslass are so dominant. Also fr*ck Aggron. I'm not running mono-EQ coverage on this.

Poliwrath from B+ to A-. Agree. This is the highest it should rise given its lacklustre offensive abilities, but yeah this pokemon is a massive annoyance. It's resistances to the meta-dominating Rock-types and AlolaSlash in particular make it worth using on many teams.

Sableye from B+ to A-. Sableye has come full circle. The vast majority of the physical meta is supremely annoyed by this thing once it gets into play, and pairing it with a strong special wall is a recipe for success for many balanced teams. The fact that the meta has become more offensive only helps it as there are less tanky special attackers to repeatedly switch into it, and priority Taunt is a more useful trait than ever for a defensive pokemon. Furthermore, it is the only spinblocker which reliably blocks both Hitmonchan, Slash, and Kabutops. Sableye should be on the level of Spiritomb rather than below it.

Kabutops from B+ to A-. Agree. Everything yogi said is correct, but I also want to add that Choice Band and Swords Dance Kabutops are solid wallbreakers both in and out of rain. It's in a nice place where not all too many teams are really prepared for strong physical water-type attackers.

Ludicolo from B to B+. Rain is fantastic right now, and it can move up for that alone.

Tangela from B to B+. This should have moved up a long while ago. Tangela still happens to be one of the best physical walls in the meta. Although there are a lot of trends going against it, the fact that it does not suck up momentum by having to Recover and being able to shrug off hazard damage is incredibly useful right now, as well as its ability to check staples like Lycanroc/Aggron/Primeape/Toge.
 
Last edited:
People are nomming unranked mons now so let's have a go with something that's music to my ears: huhuhu

Chimecho: Unranked > D

Ok, so Chimecho here is packed with crazy amounts of utility, and it's stats aren't that bad either. It gets access to Defog, Heal Bell, 2 recovery moves in Wish and Recover, status in Toxic, which it can viably run with recovery, and Thunder Wave, Taunt, Healing Wish and Knock Off, as well as other moves that I won't mention here. It should be noted that Chimecho was buffed in USUM, giving it +10 in HP, Defence and Sp. Def, as well as access to the aforementioned Defog, making it considerably more viable than before. This could explain why it hasn't been given much love until now. My preferred set is a bulky defogger/wish passer, as Levitate allows it to switch in on hazards without chip damage, but it can be used as a cleric or heck, even run Calm Mind and Psychic or Psyshock (don't run Calm Mind plz). This is the set that I use:

Chimecho @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Defog
- Heal Bell / Recover
- Psyshock / Psychic
- Healing Wish

Before I go into detail, it should be noted that Chimecho is the only Pokemon in PU to have access to both Defog and Healing Wish. These are it's main two moves that allow for it to switch in and quickly remove hazards while tanking hits, and if Chimecho is at low health after using Defog it can use Healing Wish to sacrifice itself while reinvigorating partners. With Heal Bell or Recover it can wall status stall / mons that don't 2HKO it, and threaten them with Psychic or Psyshock. Weezing, Dusknoir, Hitmonchan, Gurdurr and Qwilfish are examples of this. Additionally, hard-hitting Ground-types like Mudsdale can't hit Chimecho with it's STAB due to Levitate. I'm aware that Psychic isn't the greatest typing at the moment, and that Mesprit may outclass it, but Chimecho provides an appreciable niche in it's access to recovery and ability to remove hazards safely, which Mesprit lacks. If you want to discuss this I'm open for debate, but I believe that it's chime for this guy to rise.

Calcs:

Froslass:
0 SpA Froslass Hex (65 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Chimecho: 128-152 (36.1 - 42.9%) -- 94.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Chimecho Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Froslass: 124-147 (36 - 42.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

AV Crab:
16+ Atk Iron Fist Crabominable Ice Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chimecho: 153-180 (43.2 - 50.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Chimecho Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Crabominable: 206-246 (51.7 - 61.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 SpA Chimecho Psychic vs. 252 HP / 240 SpD Assault Vest Crabominable: 128-152 (32.1 - 38.1%) -- 94.9% chance to 3HKO

Gurdurr:
192+ Atk Gurdurr Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chimecho: 158-188 (44.6 - 53.1%) -- 30.5% chance to 2HKO (with Item)
4 SpA Chimecho Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Gurdurr: 218-258 (58.2 - 68.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Chan:
252+ Atk Hitmonchan Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chimecho: 86-102 (24.2 - 28.8%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Chimecho Psyshock vs. 208 HP / 0 Def Hitmonchan: 204-240 (69.6 - 81.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 SpA Chimecho Psychic vs. 208 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Hitmonchan: 116-138 (39.5 - 47%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Poliwrath:
252+ SpA Poliwrath Scald vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Chimecho: 105-124 (29.6 - 35%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Chimecho Psychic vs. 112 HP / 0 SpD Poliwrath: 204-242 (58.4 - 69.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

U-Turners:
252 Atk Scyther U-turn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chimecho: 170-204 (48 - 57.6%) -- 43.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0- Atk Mesprit U-turn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chimecho: 78-94 (22 - 26.5%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Primeape U-turn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chimecho: 110-130 (31 - 36.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Silvally-Bug U-turn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chimecho: 152-182 (42.9 - 51.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Togedemaru U-turn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chimecho: 106-126 (29.9 - 35.5%) -- 28.2% chance to 3HKO
232+ Atk Komala U-turn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chimecho: 126-150 (35.5 - 42.3%) -- 91.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery



Replays:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-814874623
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-814883157
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-814895278
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-814903231
A montage of Gurdurr almost dying, Chimecho switching in and tanking Dark moves/Defogging, Chimecho clicking Healing Wish and saving Gurdurr, allowing it to carry

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-814938828
Chimecho tanking a +2 Qwilfish Liquidation and killing with Psyshock

PS: I wanna show my support for Lost Soul's nom as I used Electrode while getting my Chimecho replays and it performed great. The specs set is a brilliant pivot with it's insane speed tier and high damage output ^^
 
Last edited:

Megazard

The Piranha Plant of Super Staff Bros
is a member of the Site Staffis an official Team Rateris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Battle Server Moderator
PU Leader
Ok so I started a vote on Sunday and then this thread exploded, we haven't voted on anything past Yogi's post so no Chimecho, no Electrode, and none of Many's noms. Sorry lads, but an update is an update ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ also I like the colors they're sticking around s/o Kiyo

Rises
Mudsdale A- to A
Poliwrath B+ to A-
Kabutops B+ to A-
Alolan Raichu B to B+
Claydol C to C+
Ninetales D to C
Metang D to C-
Basculin Unranked to D
Duosion Unranked to D

Drops
Carracosta A- to B+
Zangoose B+ to B
Smeargle C to C-
Shuckle C to C-
Sandslash C to D
Crustle C- to Unranked

Skuntank S to A+
Froslass A+ to S
Aggron A+ to S
Granbull C to C+
Slaking Unranked to D
Gorebyss Unranked to D

Drampa B+ to B
Sawsbuck C to C-

So the big thing to discuss was S rank and we didn't do anything to it. The council was and is super split on exactly what should happen to S rank, in fact you can listen to some differing opinions on this week's Untier Talk. It's just really close and fairly subjective whether Froslass or Skuntank are good enough for S and what being good enough for S rank even means, it was even argued that Froslass and Skuntank are about as good but them being in S as a pair devalues S rank. Ultimately we couldn't come to one unifying opinion and nothing changes this time around, which at least isn't super unrepresentative of the meta.

In other news, most of the rises have received plenty of hype and discussion recently as the new mons people are messing with, and most of the drops are just things outclassed by other mons continuing to slide into obscurity. We talked about Alolan Raichu a decent bit on Untier Talk as an example of new interesting things, and Carracosta and Zangoose aren't remotely bad but it's really hard to justify using them over Omastar and Stoutland/Kangaskhan respectively. That's it really, nothing too major since the only big scenario resolved with no changes. Any continuing S rank discussion is welcome and we did split 50/50 on the Drampa and Sawsbuck nominations, so those can go for discussion points.
Also there has been a huge uptick in nominating unranked things, and a word of advice on those: get some good replays and give us a strict set. The worst of these nominations fail to really get into what the mon's niche is and make it very unclear why you'd ever want to bother with them, and that can make or break an investigation into something that part of the council hasn't had the time to test. Slaking and Gorebyss were just hard no's either way though, so don't think I'm calling out any individual noms.
Votes can be viewed here
 

Electrode: Unranked > D, but for a different reason

Electrode @ Light Clay
Ability: Aftermath
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Reflect
- Light Screen
- Taunt
- Explosion
Nomming Electrode to D rank because it's on par, and in my opinion better than Meowstic, who I understand is currently D rank for being the best Screens setter in the tier. While Meowstic seems better at first look thanks to Prankster, Electrode has two notable benefits going for it: Taunt and Explosion.
Thanks to Taunt, Electrode is able to deny Defog from Pokémon such as Silvally and Skuntank whilst preventing both entry hazard setup from setters like Froslass and Clefairy, as well as boosting Pokémon like Lilligant.
Explosion not only prevents Defog, but also allows for a free switch into any one of your setup sweepers which Meowstic is not able to provide.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-814484925
Electrode sets up on Skuntank without caring about Defog thanks to Taunt. Later comes back in the game thanks to its bulk and sets up screens again, giving Mesprit and Zangoose free reign.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-814479718
Electrode uses Taunt to prevent Silvally-Dragon from Defogging the screens away, enabling a Lilligant sweep.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-814559615
Electrode gets screens up and comfortably taunts Regirock - Earthquake doesn't do enough damage thanks to Electrode's bulk.
This taunt allows Lilligant to come in for free and do some early damage without worrying about Toxic.
It then comes into the game later on Shiftry and not only sets up another Reflect but knocks Shiftry into Quick Attack range for Zangoose to clean up in the late-game. Explosion also gives Zangoose an easy switch-in.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-814564343
I played this game very poorly but I feel that it shows Electrode's capabilities well; it got screens up, prevented Oricorio-Sensu from setting up and gave my Omastar a free Shell Smash setup.
In short, Electrode should either join Meowstic in D rank or replace it; while Screens HO is a niche playstyle, Electrode is in my eyes definitely the best choice for said archetype.
(I don't particularly rate it as a Rain setter or offensive pivot; it seems outclassed by Volbeat/Liepard and Manectric/Zebstrika in those roles)
 
Last edited:

Hitmonchan from A- to A

It's surprising to me that the best spinner, Hail check, and AV user in the tier is not A rank. I know it has its flaws, but it is one of the most commonly used Pokemon in the tier and is a solid blanket check for many different types of threats.


Altaria from A- to B+ (or lower)

Now that Pyroar is gone, offensive Fire-types are not as large of a threat anymore. Hail teams and Rain teams are fluorishing in the current meta, and Altaria loses to them both. The introduction of Froslass, Scyther, and Omastar have further hindered it from being a good defensive option. The defensive set is very passive and loses to special sweepers it is meant to check, namely Oricorio-G and HP Ice Lilligant (who rarely runs HP Fire anymore since Ferroseed is gone).


Bellossom from B+ to B

Although it has many niches that differentiate it from Lilligant, it is still largely outclassed. First of all, it's slow as hell. It won't be outspeeding stuff like Froslass or Scyther after +1. Second of all, it doesn't have Sleep Powder.

It does have much better bulk than Lilligant as well as access to Strength Sap, but it often requires at least 2 turns of set up for it to remotely become an offensive threat. That is 1 turn too many considering the hyper offensive nature of the meta right now.


Golurk from B+ to B/B-

Ask yourself, "When was the last you saw Golurk on the ladder?" Okay, you might have seen it a few times but really not that often. It is a nice offensive rocker but it is far from reliable. Stuff like Mesprit, Lycanroc, and Aggron do it far more reliably because of either A.) their good speed, B.) their good defensive typing, C.) their good bulk, or a mixture of thereof.

Golurk possesses none of these traits. On paper, its excellent offensive typing and strong base 124 attack should make it a solid wallbreaker and compensate for its poor qualities. Au contraire, you'll find how few opportunities there are for it to switch in as well as how rapidly it gets worn down by chip damage.

In conclusion, the abundance of good Stealth Rock setters (Lycanroc, Mudsdale, Omastar, Mesprit, etc.) makes it hard for Golurk to find a place in the tier. It's not bad, but it's nowhere near the caliber of fellow B+ members including Sableye, Type: Null, Drampa, and Carracosta.
 

Altaria from A- to B+ (or lower)

Now that Pyroar is gone, offensive Fire-types are not as large of a threat anymore. Hail teams and Rain teams are fluorishing in the current meta, and Altaria loses to them both. The introduction of Froslass, Scyther, and Omastar have further hindered it from being a good defensive option. The defensive set is very passive and loses to special sweepers it is meant to check, namely Oricorio-G and HP Ice Lilligant (who rarely runs HP Fire anymore since Ferroseed is gone).
Agreed. Altaria has been slightly irrelevant recently what with all the Ice- and Rock- types running around, and has definitely seen a decline in both usage and viability because of this. Bulky Altaria is basically just a worse Articuno, one of it's only main niches being that it resists Fire but like you mentioned Fire-types are negligible now.


Golurk from B+ to B/B-

Ask yourself, "When was the last you saw Golurk on the ladder?" Okay, you might have seen it a few times but really not that often. It is a nice offensive rocker but it is far from reliable. Stuff like Mesprit, Lycanroc, and Aggron do it far more reliably because of either A.) their good speed, B.) their good defensive typing, C.) their good bulk, or a mixture of thereof.

Golurk possesses none of these traits. On paper, its excellent offensive typing and strong base 124 attack should make it a solid wallbreaker and compensate for its poor qualities. Au contraire, you'll find how few opportunities there are for it to switch in as well as how rapidly it gets worn down by chip damage.
I heavily disagree with this. First of all, it functions as a sort of counter to other rockers while being able to set rocks. This means it normally stays in on the first turn rather than switching in. Lycanroc Taunts you? Too bad, they die to EQ. Aggron? Dies to EQ. Mesprit? Shadow Punch and force the switch or 2HKO. (Ok, it might run Ice Beam but it's unlikely.) Let's say you don't do this, and instead decide to switch into Golurk later in the game. You mentioned that it has "few opportunities to switch in". It has 3 immunities. Switch in on any Fighting-, Normal- or Electric move and you're given basically a free turn to do whatever, as they can't normally hurt you back and are forced to switch. It's fine where it is - just because it's not seen everywhere doesn't mean it's bad. Look at Jynx.
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 3, Guests: 2)

Top