USUM UU Viability Ranking Thread V2

[bsu]

honestly can get on board with ranking swellow. after looking at the B and above ranks, there really isn't another mon that can spam a special move so reliably and so powerfully, and so fast(ly??). Reliably in the sense that nearly every mon's spam move of choice has either an immunity (lati Draco, gengar shadow ball or sludge wave, chandelure fire blast, prima hydro), plenty of 4x resists (serp leaf storm), etc.

In terms of power, well

252 SpA Choice Specs Swellow Boomburst vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Shaymin: 237-280 (69.5 - 82.1%)
vs.
252 SpA Choice Specs Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Shaymin: 190-225 (55.7 - 65.9%)
252 SpA Choice Specs Latias Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Shaymin: 195-231 (57.1 - 67.7%)
252 SpA Choice Specs Primarina Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Shaymin: 228-268 (66.8 - 78.5%)
prima comes close but its soooooo much slower

obvs their stronger stabs out damage but are far less reliable whether its accuracy, spatk drops, etc

any normal resist can comfortably tank, and boom burst can never hit super effectively but imo its a solid enough niche and its not terrible so I can see swellow being ranked!

 

[dingbat]

A+ --> A: DOWN WITH THE GARDEN SNEK

B+ --> A-: Gained a lot of traction as a durable Mega Manectric check while continuing to be a very serviceable blanket check to a bunch of popular physical mons rn.

B- --> B: In comparison to Haxorus, better overall match-ups against the rest of this meta along with greater longevity with Drain Punch definitely make up for the loss of initial speed and wallbreaking power, the latter of which is actually an underrated aspect of Kommo-o.

B- --> C+: Heavily outperformed by most other Fighting-types in this tier; however its ability to check its unique set of threats (including Breloom + most offensively passive mons) is still fairly valuable.

B- --> C: The increase in Hippowdon usage heavily hampers the two ability to set up Aurora Veil on a consistent basis, which on its own is continuing to spiral downhill.

C+ --> C: All mediocre mons that are directly hurt by Mega Slowbro's drop to UU

C+ --> C-: Has a harder time setting up + sweeping this meta than it did when it got ranked, especially with the uptick in Amoonguss and the introduction of Breloom. Reason to keep this ranked is because it capitalizes in the uptick of bird usage by threatening to set up on any birds lacking Grass coverage.

UR --> C-: BOOMBURST BOOMBURST BOOMBURST BOOMBURST BOOMBURST BOOMBURST BOOMBURST BOOMBURST BOOMBURST BOOMBURST BOOMBURST BOOMBURST BOOMBURST BOOMBURST BOOMBURST BOOMBURST

C- --> UR: Useless suicide lead like Kabutops

 

[Parkzy]

Mega Abomasnow from C+ to B-/B
Mega Abomasnow is a huge threat to unsuspecting teams on the UU ladder due to the fact it's duel stabs and coverage in earthquake can break through quite a few mons in the meta. In most scenarios this mon can break Latias, Azumarill and Gliscor assuming no boosts. It's duel stab and access to swords dance allows it to break through bulky balance or stall (most notibly Alomomola and Blissey cores.) Since Mamoswine left the UU tier it's been harder to find a strong ice type capable of breaking through what is mostly considered the biggest threat in UU in Gliscor. This is without saying that Abomasnow has it's fair share of counters in the tier most notably Scizor but other mons like Cobalion, Klefki, Arcanine, Entei, Mega Aggron and Forretress + others however I can't look at the higher tiers and find justification of Toxicroak and Jellicent being more viable than this powerhouse.

 

[Moutemoute]

From C+ to B- / B → Strongly Disagree

Even if Abomasnow-Mega can threaten some fat core in UU, it's way too slow and can be easily weaken. Its weakness to SR is annoying too (ik there is Pokemon like Moltres which are really weak to SR but high in the VR but Moltres has a real move of recovery while Abo-Mege just has Giga Drain [which mean no SD] or Synthesis [best strat w/ Hail imo]). With SR up, Pokemon like Azumarill Band, Breloom, Scizor, Cobalion, Houndoom-Mega, Gengar, Kommo-O, Manectric-Mega, Agron-Mega, Chandelure, Infernape, Volcanion or Zeroid can force it out.
Plus, Abo-Mega take your Mega Slot which sucks a lot cuz there is so much better Mega in UU..

 

[Jmac AU]

Mega Abomasnow from C+ to B-/B
Mega Abomasnow is a huge threat to unsuspecting teams on the UU ladder due to the fact it's duel stabs and coverage in earthquake can break through quite a few mons in the meta. In most scenarios this mon can break Latias, Azumarill and Gliscor assuming no boosts. It's duel stab and access to swords dance allows it to break through bulky balance or stall (most notibly Alomomola and Blissey cores.) Since Mamoswine left the UU tier it's been harder to find a strong ice type capable of breaking through what is mostly considered the biggest threat in UU in Gliscor. This is without saying that Abomasnow has it's fair share of counters in the tier most notably Scizor but other mons like Cobalion, Klefki, Arcanine, Entei, Mega Aggron and Forretress + others however I can't look at the higher tiers and find justification of Toxicroak and Jellicent being more viable than this powerhouse.

Strongly disagree with this nomination. I don't have a heap of experience playing UU, but its extremely slow and is very easy to chip. It doesnt even reliably beat the mons that you mentioned either. It certainly doesnt switch into either of latias' stab attacks, nor a banded play rough from azu, and if azu is a perish trapper set then it cant do anything to it at all.
252 SpA Latias Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Abomasnow-Mega: 127-150 (39.5 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Latias Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Abomasnow-Mega: 272-322 (84.7 - 100.3%) -- guaranteed KO in 2 turns after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Abomasnow-Mega: 256-303 (79.7 - 94.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Abomasnow also has little to no defensive utility either. It's typing works against it, being weak to rocks and weak to common top tier threats (scizor, loom, etc etc). Being weak to rocks might seem like a weak argument given the influx of defoggers available, but the fact that you can pretty much only bring abomasnow onto the field when hazards are not in play is very annoying. Also, when you are losing 25% on each switch in (assuming rocks are up and you bring aboma in), have zero reliable recovery other than synthesis (and if you run synthesis you are forced to drop either swords dance or a STAB/coverage move it needs), are extremely slow and easy to chip away at, easily pressured out, and take up a mega slot, i don't see any reason to have it on my team. If anything I think it should drop to C, because it isn't good enough at doing what it is supposed to do, the support it requires if you want to use it is too much, and the costs of using it heavily outweigh the benefits in general.

 

[Salemjuggernaut]

Serperior A+ > A: Agree
Ever since this thing came to be, many counters and checks to it have arose higher in usage and viability such as A-Muk, Amoonguss, Moltres, Gengar, etc. it’s still threatening with its Z-Hyper Beam set or Sub-Seed set with a good speed tier.

Klefki A- > B+: Agree
It’s hard to keep Klefki’s hazards in. Being hard countered by the best defogger in the tier Gliscor and letting in loads of ground types in is a bad trait to have for a hazard lead. It’s defensive typing is still valuable for Latias, Serperior, and Crobat. But it still struggles in keeping its hazards in.

Hippowdon B+ > A-: Agree
A Mega-Manectric answer is very necessary in this meta. Not being 4x weak to Ice or Grass is always nice to have and can provide Sand Stream chip damage and a rocker/phazer to boot. The only thing that could stop it from being in the A ranks is it’s matchup vs Flying types and a lot of the S ranks seeing as it has to carry Ice Fang for Latias and Gliscor, or give up phazing or Toxic. But seeing as answers to Mega Mane are still obscure (especially with Mamoswine gone), I think it has a worthy spot on A-.

Mega-Blastoise B > B-: Highly Agree
This thing is ranked here for its ability to threaten Gliscor, Stakataka, and Swampert but any other Water type can do the same thing without wasting a mega slot. Outclassed heavily by Primarina as a wall breaker and outclassed by Starmie and Tentacruel as a Spinner. As a matter of fact I think it should be ranked lower than B-.

Kommo-o B- > B: Agree
I have been using Sub-Salac Belly Drum and Sub-DD and it has been putting a lot of work for me lately. The typing and bulk gives it a setup opportunity vs the likes of Amoonguss, Non-Roar Mega-Aggron, and Alomomola. It has improved a lot from SuMo and I can expect more from it later in the future.

Crawdaunt B- > C+/C: Agree
At this point of the meta you have to ask yourself, why would I use this over Azumarill? It’s bulk, power, and typing are almost all inferior to Azumarill. The blue rabbit can at least run a Sap Sipper set to be less predictable. Crawdaunt is only conditioned to wallbreaking. Breloom only made it worse not only outclassing it but also being a nuisance to it in general.

Chesnaught C+ > C/C-: Agree
Spikes are in a rough spot in UU. Can’t really beat Gliscor and it struggles to do anything else. The influx of flying types like Crobat and Mega-Pidgeot doesn’t help the juggernaut in the slightest. I could even see this thing unranked.

Kabutops C > UR: Agree
Why was this thing ranked for the entire time? Rain is nonexistent and has garbage stats for UU standards. Get it outta here.

Mega-Slowbro: A-
A Special Attack stat as high as Volcanion’s and a movepool consisting of CM, Trick Room, Slack Off, Fire Blast, Scald, and Iron Defense. It has a lot going for it and can be a very dangerous late game sweeper. My main issues with it is the amount of offensive mons that can threaten it. Mega-Mane, Scizor, CM Latias, Breloom, etc and a Toxic can ruin its tanking abilities. The second one was only a minor complaint but I believe it earned the spot on A-.

 

[Freeroamer]

It seems to be a common misconception in this thread that Kabutops was ranked for its role as a rain sweeper, which is just flat out false as that set was never viable. It was ranked for a suicide lead set that abused Weak Armor in order to fuck with the other suicide leads that were popular at the time in that it would prevent their rocks going up while getting its own. I think it’s a relic that’s stayed there far too long but that’s the set it’s ranked for, not some rain garbage.

 

[MaahirMomtaz12]

I don't think Kabutops' stats are garbage when you have Pokémon like Klefki that has no stats over 100. Kabutops' stats are pretty decent with good Attack, Defense, and pretty decent Speed for UU standards. But yeah I agree with it being unranked. That meta is long gone and things have changed now

 

[bsu]

mostly agree on kabutops buttttttttttttttt with the chance of gliscor leaving UU loses a solid defogger so maybe things could change but also thats just speculative and shouldn't matter rn

Also agree on hippo, its such a good check/counter to mane and can be not setup bait with whirlwind. I personally like using it on offense as a pivot that can get rocks and chip things with sand. its also just so nice to have a non swampert ground type that doesn't just die to HP ice

 

[Jade]

Disagree with Swellow being ranked. Its frail, has competition from other, better Flying types, and needs a lot of team support due to its rocks weakness. Its fast yes, but its very susceptible to Scarfers such as Latias, Hydreigon, and Infernape. Its Normal/Flying hinders it more than it helps it, as being neutral to Breloom's Mach Punch just makes it worse, despite the Boomburst spam. Have I even mentioned the fact that every good team is probably carrying at least one or more normal resists, or things that can just tank the Boomburst? Steel is a staple on every team, and this isn't even mentioning the uprising in Rock types like Nihilego and Mega Aerodactyl. It has a meh matchup against BO due to Mega Aerodactyl, Mega Aggron, Hydreigon, etc. Its nearly deadweight against stall because of Blissey. Against Balance, there will usually be a Mega Aggron + Sylveon, which just completely walls Swellow.

 

[DetroitLolcat]

Kommo-o should be higher than B-. The SubBD Salac set creates constant fear for opposing teams because it only needs one free turn to become a nearly impossible to defeat sweeper. It has a favorable matchup against many bulky offense, balance, and even some stall builds, setting up against Amoonguss, Alomomola, Sylveon, some Mega Altaria sets, and Pokemon choice-locked into the wrong move. Soundproof + Substitute is a really, really strong combination too.

 

[Hilomilo]

Ranking Update
The main focus of the ranking council this time around was to clean up some of the lower rankings, since not a lot of discussion happened this past couple of weeks. In addition to that, I'd like everyone to know that whether or not Swellow warrants a rank somewhere is still undetermined as more of the ranking council needs to use it for us to make a decision. Now, without further ado, here's what changed:

Rises

New Pokemon rank -> A

B+ -> A-

B- -> B

B- -> B

Drops

A- -> B+

B -> B-

B -> B-

B- -> C+

B- -> C+

C+ -> C

C+ -> C

C+ -> C

C+ -> C

C+ -> C

C -> C-

C -> C-

C -> C-

C -> UR

C- -> UR

reasons for rises

Mega Slowbro has found a home in A for now, and while it may not receive much current usage, it has a very defined place in the tier as both one of the best bulky sweepers and one of the best physical walls available. Its amazing mixed defenses and typing allow it to wall extremely important presences in the tier, such as Azumarill, Cobalion, and Infernape, while it can be one of the hardest Pokemon to stand up to after it’s accumulated even just one Calm Mind boost. Its main struggles include dealing with prevalent special attackers like Hydreigon and Mega Manectric and facing competition from the likes of Suicune and Latias, though it’s capable of consistently contributing to any team it’s put on in more than one way while fitting on several archetypes, and overall has enough going for it to make A a justifiable starting rank.

Hippowdon has recently become a significantly stronger pick due to its ability to entirely shut down what is possibly UU’s most troublesome specially offensive pivot in Mega Manectric. It also has good defensive synergy with a lot of staples on the metagame’s currently popular balance builds, which justifies rising despite having rather shaky matchups against the likes of Azumarill, Breloom, Serperior, and Mega Slowbro.

I’m personally not a huge fan of Kommo-o, though the majority of the ranking council agreed that rising is fair for it at this stage. The consensus here was that due to its unique set of tools, Kommo-o is currently about as good of a Dragon-type as Haxorus and should share a rank with it due to this. Its typing allowing it to more reliably break Steel-types and Soundproof enabling reliable setup on Sylveon are two very important tools that allow it to adequately distinguish itself and fit comfortably in B.

Slowbro continues to work its way up the food chain, establishing its prowess as a defensive pivot enough to warrant rising from B-. It fits extremely well onto play styles with a lot of current viability (balance and bulky offense) due to the utility of regenerator, its fantastic matchups against the majority of UU’s physical attackers, and good overall synergy with other Pokemon commonly found on these play styles. It’s proving to have a niche that isn’t outdone by its recently reintroduced Mega Evolution and it is slowly finding relevance in the metagame again, after a long period of universal hatred from the community.

reasons for drops

Klefki’s drop reflects the decreased viability of the offensive Spikes builds it once thrived on, which simply don’t match up against the metagame like they used to. Spikes stacking in general is a lot more of a monumental task, especially when Klefki’s lack of appreciation for the recent rise of Mega Aggron Fire-types such as Chandelure is taken into consideration.

Mega Blastoise has recently received some notable tournament usage, though it still struggles against too much of the metagame’s top threats to justify staying in B for now. Its ability to combat Mega Slowbro and offensively pressure several balances is offset enough by the huge presences of Pokemon like Azumarill, Mega Manectric, Serperior, and Breloom to make it better suited for a rank alongside Mega Beedrill and Crawdaunt than one alongside Celebi or Salazzle.

Alolan Marowak is just generally underwhelming at this stage in the metagame. Its Stealth Rock weakness, horrible Speed tier for a Pokemon with its typing, and vulnerability to a large amount of UU’s most defining Pokemon, which particularly include Azumarill and Gliscor, makes a drop in rank reasonable, despite having been shut down as a suggestion earlier on in the thread’s history.

Mega Absol has been a mediocre choice in the metagame for a while now, struggling heavily on account of its frailty, often struggling to find room for all the coverage it needs, and matching up poorly against several top tier threats, including Gliscor, Scizor, Azumarill, Cobalion. It just struggles to do anything too notable right now, and unless something changes to benefit it C+ will suit it perfectly.

Talonflame has a lot of opportunity cost in a metagame where Moltres is as good as it is. This in tandem with Azumarill, Mega Manectric, and Mega Slowbro all having big presences in the metagame is grounds for a drop to C+, which consists of Pokemon it is closer to in viability than its former subrank.

Entei and Mienshao struggle for niches in a metagame that constantly works against them. Both suffer immense competition from fellow Fire- and Fighting-types, are pressured by several big metagame presences, and to make matters worse, are directly hurt by the recent introduction of Mega Slowbro. While they have niches, said niches have become much less reliable and useful and justify dropping further from C+.

These Pokemon all dropped due to simply not being as good as what was in their former subrank and having more adequately reflected viability lower in the ranks. Barbaracle is mostly dropping due to Breloom’s presence hurting its prowess as a sweeper a lot. Porygon2 lacks the usage necessary to prove its worth while also poorly matching up against the tier’s several viable Fighting-types. Chesnaught dislikes the increased popularity of threats such as Chandelure, Moltres, and Crobat while being setup bait for Latias and Mega Altaria, and Cresselia’s drop reflects the heavy falling out of favor that dedicated Trick Room teams have suffered since Stakataka hype died down. Froslass and Stoutland have lacking niches in the metagame, which justifies further dropping from C given their equally lacking usage, though unique sets of tools justify maintaining ranks in C-.

These two both struggle too heavily as suicide leads to justify staying ranked. Kabutops has never received consistent enough of usage to prove its worth, while it also generally dislikes all of the Grass-types currently dominating the metagame. Smeargle looks to function on an already struggling archetype in webs offense, which doesn’t even require a suicide lead anyway due to the much greater viability, utility, and consistency of a much better setter in Araquanid.

rejected nominations and discussion points

Serperior A+ -> A
A case can still be made for Serperior not necessarily being as defining as what else sits in A+, though it is certainly more of a centralizing and dominant force than what else sits in A. The constraint it currently puts on teambuilding and the fact that it’s still extremely difficult working around a +2 Serperior ultimately both are grounds for staying A+.

Infernape A -> A-
Infernape was definitely hurt by the unbanning of Mega Slowbro, though it still has invaluable traits that justify its consistent use as a scarfer. Pivoting, a STAB combination capable of revenge killing the vast majority of threats that often require revenge killing, and insane versatility between its sets all justify staying above A- for now, as Infernape is much more on par with what is in its current rank.

Crawdaunt B- -> C+/C
It’s undeniable that Crawdaunt has taken a hit in viability since Azumarill’s introduction to the tier, though it still has enough going for it to barely stay above the C rankings. Pressuring one of the more annoying physical walls in Mega Slowbro as a physical attacker is certainly impressive and allows it to distinguish itself, while Swords Dance and STAB Knock Off are also niches valuable enough to maintain B-.

Mega Abomasnow C+ -> B-
This was already addressed in the last upqdate, so I’ll clarify now that Mega Abomasnow will absolutely be staying C+ for the time being. Not officially blacklisting discussion on it but I’d avoid bringing it up for a rise. Mamoswine’s departure didn’t really do a lot for Mega Abomasnow given that its most powerful physical Ice-type move that it can afford to fit on a set is Ice Shard, and it still struggles more than ever to combat the multiple metagame trends working against it and the competition with Breloom that it suffers. Overall just not a Pokemon that is currently B-ranks caliber due to its iffy response to the general metagame.

Discussion Points

Mega Sharpedo A- -> A
Mega Sharpedo seems to constantly fluctuate between struggling a little bit in the meta and suddenly performing super nicely. It’s mainly being brought up for a rise on the basis of having a fantastic matchup against Mega Slowbro, which is a trait most other physical attackers lack. It can still struggle to combat Breloom’s presence and the decline in Spikes viability, however.

Celebi B -> B+
You could make a case for a few Grass-types having increased viability on account of Mega Slowbro now being in the tier. However, Celebi possibly stands out the most for its ability to, in addition to reliably handling Mega Slowbro, pressure Amoonguss, checking Breloom, and with Z-Earth Power, muscling past several common defensive Pokemon that have recently risen, such as Mega Aggron and Alolan Muk. However, it is still held back by being generally awkward to fit on teams and being easy to offensively pressure due to its several weaknesses, which makes a rise much less clear cut of a decision.

Mega Steelix B -> B-
The main thing working against Mega Steelix right now is that in a lot of cases, Mega Aggron is simply the stronger pick. Mega Aggron is much more capable of taking on Serperior, Azumarill, Mega Manectric, and Gliscor due to its ability, movepool, and typing, which lacks a Water weakness and Grass neutrality, giving it significant advantages. Arguments for staying B are still valid, however, given that Mega Steelix possesses a potentially crucial Electric-type immunity, better Special Defense, and a more powerful Earthquake.

Toxicroak B- -> C+
On one hand, Toxicroak is capable of revenge killing both Azumarill and Breloom fairly reliably while also often finding opportunities to set up against the likes of Amoonguss and Suicune. On the other hand, its lacking power and Speed tier hurt it in that it is faced with severe competition from Infernape, Cobalion, Terrakion, and nearly any other Fighting-type booster. It also can’t make use of its Water immunity against one of the tier’s better bulky Water-types in Mega Slowbro, which makes a drop worth discussing.

Hoopa C+ -> C
Hoopa hasn’t received serious competitive usage in a long time, which doesn’t give it much of an ability to prove its worth in the metagame. It can be a fairly capable special attacker on account of its good matchups against several walls and its ability to muscle past Alolan Muk, though its horrible Pursuit vulnerability, poor matchup against most of the offensive metagame, and bad physical bulk potentially rationalize a drop.

Umbreon C+ -> C
Umbreon is yet another mixed bag in the metagame. It’s a fantastic special sponge with better mixed bulk than its main competition in Sylveon, though its typing is becoming increasingly inconvenient for it in a metagame where Fighting-types, Mega Altaria, Azumarill, and Scizor are all so prevalent.

Rhyperior C -> C+/B-
Rhyperior is picking up a lot of steam right now, particularly for its ability to check Mega Manectric extremely reliably while remaining capable of maintaining an offensive presence. Working against it is the prevalence of types that it can’t tank hits from, like Water, Grass, and Ground, though the arguments for a rise are more valid than ever.

Hope you guys enjoyed! If there was something you think we might've missed, let me know via VM, as there was certainly a lot that we cleaned up here. Happy posting, and be ready for some more discussion points to roll around if tier shifts happen any time soon! Till next time, friends.

 

[Jade]

Making VR posts are fun and well-received, so here I am.

Mega Sharpedo to A: Agree

Though Spikestack has fallen, Sharpedo is still an overlooked threat. It's easily able to sweep late-game even without Spike support. Water/Dark is a good offensive typing as well, despite Azu being prevalent. Getting Psychic Fangs really helped it, as it now has a way to combat Fighting types aside from a Water move.

Celebi to B+: Disagree.

Already talked about why Celebi shouldn't rise in this post. tl;dr its hard to fit on teams without building around it and also awkward to build around. Grass/Psychic isn't too great of a defensive typing either, as the 4x weakness to U-Turn can hinder it. Mons such as Hydreigon and Latias being so common don't help it either.

Rhyperior to C+ Agree.

This mon is a really nice check to birds (which are broken). It also checks other mons such as Rotom-Heat, Manectric, etc. It can also act as an emergency Gliscor check with Ice Punch. My problem with it is that you need to find another check to Mega Aero since you can't just hope they don't have Aqua Tail.

Hoopa to C: Agree.

I haven't seen this mon in AGES. There are much better stallbreakers out there, bad defensive typing, and TR is pretty bad right now. Really not a lot to say here.

Mega Steelix to B-: Agree.

Also haven't seen this mon much. It has competition from the newly uprising Rhyperior as well as an Electric check. Also has competition from Mega Aggron as a Steel type mega in general.

Umbreon to C: Agree.

Breloom dropping hindered this thing a lot. It also has competition as a cleric from Sylveon, who is a lot more splashable and has an (arguably) better typing. Also haven't seen this thing as well (I see a recurring theme...)

Toxicroak to C+: Agree.

Talked about why here. Tl;dr it has competition from other Poison types that offer better utility and are more splashable, and has competition from an SD Fighting type from Coba and competition as an NP Fighting type from Lucario. Doesn't help that Gliscor is everywhere as well.

And now for my own nominations:

from C- to C.

Pyuku is becoming more common on stall to deal with things that Quag can't beat such as Lucario, Crawdaunt, Azumarill (can also block in Perish Azu which is cool), Pidgeot, etc. Daisies has been using a Block/Spite set that is surprisingly effective. Though I've found Soak/Toxic/Recover/Counter more effective, because you can Counter Z-Move breakers besides Haxorus, which Quag loses to anyway. I think C+ is a stretch, but C is fair because it definitely has more of a niche than some of the things in C-.

from B- to C+.

This might be controversial, but I don't see a reason to use Mega Beedrill at all. Being countered by Gliscor and Scizor and having to fear for Scarf Lati doesn't help it at all. On VoltTurn, I'd rather just use Manectric. It offers no defensive utility at all and no reason to use it unless you're building around it. Not only this, it's hard even building around this thing because it just makes your team weaker to Gliscor/Scizor. Its also hard walled by Steel types such as Mega Aggron. I don't think this thing is comparable to some of the mons in B- anymore.

from B- to C+.

On top of being practically nonexistent usage-wise, it has competition from mons like Chandy and Gengar as an offensive Ghost type. It doesn't help that Alolan Muk are very common.

from A- to A. (not completely sure though)

Starmie seems a rank above everything in A- to me. This mon has no switch ins besides Blissey. Its super annoying to switch into for offense, especially the Waterium Z/Life Orb set. Its also a decent spinner, although I prefer Psyshock over Spin just to hit things like Amoonguss harder. However, its lack of usage and being Pursuited easily are arguments I can see for it to stay A-.

+

from B- to C.

Not C+, C. In my mind, these two are garbage at the current state of the meta. Mons like Breloom, Hippowdon, etc that just annoy these two are more common than ever. Not only that, Veil is in an awkward place right now. C- is too far because they still hold greater niches than things in C-.

from C to C-.

This thing is pretty bad. Webs are basically dead and if I wanted a hard-hitting physical Water type, I could just use Azumarill. It also has competition from Heracross and Scizor as a Physical Bug type and, unlike them, doesn't even have a boosting move,

Glad my Mega Absol and Toxicroak noms are getting recognition. ^_^

 

[Pokeregionz]

A- -> A Agree
This thing is probably one of, if not the best physical attacker that takes on Slowbro-M right now. It is an amazing cleaner and can dent most bulkier teams. This thing doesnt even need a water STAB. Protect/Psychic Fangs/Crunch/Ice Fang gives it coverage to hit things like Hydreigon, Fighting Types, etc.

B -> B+ Agree
This thing is doing better than it ever did before. After Breloom dropped it was the perfect check for it. Immune to spore, resists its STABs and can KO back. Then when Mega Bro dropped, the first thing I thought could take it on was Celebi with its NP set. On that note, its Groundium set can KO Muk-A at +2

Calcs

+2 252 SpA Celebi Tectonic Rage (175 BP) vs. 0 HP / 180 SpD Assault Vest Muk-Alola: 356-420 (101.4 - 119.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

C+ -> B- Agree
I honestly love this thing on Hyper Offense. Being an amazing check to Mega Manectric, Most Mega Aerodactyls. Also being a reliable rocker on that play-style.

 

[palkia246]

Mega Steelix down to B-: Agree
I feel like B- perfectly reflects Mega Steelix's current viability in UU. It's definitely not a weak pick in the metagame, but the main thorn in its side is that Mega Aggron just has so much going for it right now. Mega Steelix lacks the crucial ability to take on two of the most defining threats around in Serperior and Azumarill in contrast to Mega Aggron due to its Ground-typing, which doesn't ultimately provide enough benefits to justify staying B, considering that every Electric-type in the rankings has a way of overpowering it with relative ease. It's also hurt by the new usage of Rhyperior and recent surge in Hippowdon viability despite its access to Sand Force, given that Hippowdon competes with it as a bulky Ground-type heavily due to its ability to take on Mega Manectric way more reliably while Rhyperior can also do that while providing an overall stronger offensive presence. Mega Steelix is still good, it's just less worthy of being considered for teams than before due to a significant increase in competition.

Celebi up to B+: Agree
The perks that come with using Celebi are more notable than ever right now. Mega Aggron and Alolan Muk are often used to combat Serperior, which allows Celebi to distinguish itself from its main competition due to being able to muscle past them with Z-Earth Power. Psychic is also an option it has at its disposal to easily power through Amoonguss, another Pokemon Serperior struggles with. This was all what made B rank reasonable for Celebi, though that in tandem with the introduction of Mega Slowbro, a Pokemon it can force out and find opportunities to set up on, is enough for me to believe that going to B+ is reasonable. It definitely is super awkward to fit onto a team, but once adequately built around it really puts in serious work, especially given that not many teams consist of majority fast offensive Pokemon these days.

I'm sort of indifferent on the other discussion points, so I'd like to finish this post by adding my own nominations into the mix:

Rotom-C up to B+: This is one I've advocated for several times throughout my UU VR contributions, though I think that Rotom-C is horribly underrated even in B rank and that its responses to the metagame trends atm justify placement up in B+. It absolutely loves that Mega Slowbro recently dropped and is one of the more centralizing Pokemon currently residing in the meta. It also appreciates the rise of both Hippowdon and Rhyperior and provides offensive teams with a fantastic offensive check to some really important threats, most notably Azumarill, Suicune, and Primarina. Its struggles that are most apparent at this stage include not having much of a tournament showing, failing to really do much to stuff like Amoonguss/Latias/Hydreigon/Alolan Muk, and being rather slow, though I think these are all adequately balanced by its current perks enough so that a rise is justifiable right now.

Raikou down to B-: Kind of odd that I advocate for the rise of one Electric-type and the drop of another. Despite matching up well against Mega Slowbro, I find Raikou to be a bit of an underwhelming pick in the metagame. It doesn't have power without setting up, which can be crucial for trying to combat a boosted Mega Slowbro or Suicune, which the likes of Mega Manectric and Rotom-C with either Choice Specs or Grassium Z can accomplish more easily. It also isn't loving the increased usage of the aforementioned Rhyperior/Hippowdon, and at least for me struggles as a sweeper given that it's so easy to chip down and offensively pressure despite its good Speed tier. I find that it generally struggles to come into play due to its nearly complete lack of useful resistances, which can complicate finding opportunities to set up and setting up in general. Idk, I just feel like it's been harder to use this guy lately and returning to B- would reflect that.

Decidueye up to B-: Substitute SD Decidueye is kind of a sick stallbreaker right now. It absolutely preys on a lot of stall staples, which include Alomomola, Quagsire, and particularly the newly introduced Mega Slowbro, and this is a really valuable trait it possesses given how viable and centralizing stall builds are currently. The offensive metagame isn't as present as before, so while Decidueye still struggles against it this isn't as much of an issue, and I also feel that its flaws are generally easy to circumvent due to the good synergy it has with a lot of pretty splashable Pokemon, like Scizor, Latias, and Alolan Muk.

Thanks for reading! Hope you guys liked what I had to say :)

 

[Jade]

Disagree with Decidueye moving up. I wouldn't call Mega Slowbro a stall staple, since imo Slowbro stall has more problems than current stall builds. Not to mention stall is starting to adapt and using things like Crobat (breaks through sub w/ Infltrator and only fears the Z-Move, which could be bad if the opponent has smth like Mega Aggron). The popularity of Hydreigon, Volcanion, Moltres, Infernape,etc don't help it either. It also dislikes the popularity of Mega Aggron, as Heavy Slam is a 2HKO and it's forced to use its Z-Move. It has competition as a Grass type physical attacker from Breloom, who has more attack, Spore, and STAB priority. If I wanted an SD Z-User, I could use something like Haxorus, Scizor, etc over Decidueye. It also offers next to no defensive utility and is awkward to fit on a team due to its competition without building around it.

Agree with Rotom-C, this mon is really nice and likes the popularity of Hippowdon and Rhyperior. Z-Leaf Storm has a great 195 BP, allowing it to nuke things without a special attack drop.

 

[LORD HELIX 65]

Mega Steelix down to B-: Agree
I feel like B- perfectly reflects Mega Steelix's current viability in UU. It's definitely not a weak pick in the metagame, but the main thorn in its side is that Mega Aggron just has so much going for it right now. Mega Steelix lacks the crucial ability to take on two of the most defining threats around in Serperior and Azumarill in contrast to Mega Aggron due to its Ground-typing, which doesn't ultimately provide enough benefits to justify staying B, considering that every Electric-type in the rankings has a way of overpowering it with relative ease. It's also hurt by the new usage of Rhyperior and recent surge in Hippowdon viability despite its access to Sand Force, given that Hippowdon competes with it as a bulky Ground-type heavily due to its ability to take on Mega Manectric way more reliably while Rhyperior can also do that while providing an overall stronger offensive presence. Mega Steelix is still good, it's just less worthy of being considered for teams than before due to a significant increase in competition.

Celebi up to B+: Agree
The perks that come with using Celebi are more notable than ever right now. Mega Aggron and Alolan Muk are often used to combat Serperior, which allows Celebi to distinguish itself from its main competition due to being able to muscle past them with Z-Earth Power. Psychic is also an option it has at its disposal to easily power through Amoonguss, another Pokemon Serperior struggles with. This was all what made B rank reasonable for Celebi, though that in tandem with the introduction of Mega Slowbro, a Pokemon it can force out and find opportunities to set up on, is enough for me to believe that going to B+ is reasonable. It definitely is super awkward to fit onto a team, but once adequately built around it really puts in serious work, especially given that not many teams consist of majority fast offensive Pokemon these days.

I'm sort of indifferent on the other discussion points, so I'd like to finish this post by adding my own nominations into the mix:

Rotom-C up to B+: This is one I've advocated for several times throughout my UU VR contributions, though I think that Rotom-C is horribly underrated even in B rank and that its responses to the metagame trends atm justify placement up in B+. It absolutely loves that Mega Slowbro recently dropped and is one of the more centralizing Pokemon currently residing in the meta. It also appreciates the rise of both Hippowdon and Rhyperior and provides offensive teams with a fantastic offensive check to some really important threats, most notably Azumarill, Suicune, and Primarina. Its struggles that are most apparent at this stage include not having much of a tournament showing, failing to really do much to stuff like Amoonguss/Latias/Hydreigon/Alolan Muk, and being rather slow, though I think these are all adequately balanced by its current perks enough so that a rise is justifiable right now.

Raikou down to B-: Kind of odd that I advocate for the rise of one Electric-type and the drop of another. Despite matching up well against Mega Slowbro, I find Raikou to be a bit of an underwhelming pick in the metagame. It doesn't have power without setting up, which can be crucial for trying to combat a boosted Mega Slowbro or Suicune, which the likes of Mega Manectric and Rotom-C with either Choice Specs or Grassium Z can accomplish more easily. It also isn't loving the increased usage of the aforementioned Rhyperior/Hippowdon, and at least for me struggles as a sweeper given that it's so easy to chip down and offensively pressure despite its good Speed tier. I find that it generally struggles to come into play due to its nearly complete lack of useful resistances, which can complicate finding opportunities to set up and setting up in general. Idk, I just feel like it's been harder to use this guy lately and returning to B- would reflect that.

Decidueye up to B-: Substitute SD Decidueye is kind of a sick stallbreaker right now. It absolutely preys on a lot of stall staples, which include Alomomola, Quagsire, and particularly the newly introduced Mega Slowbro, and this is a really valuable trait it possesses given how viable and centralizing stall builds are currently. The offensive metagame isn't as present as before, so while Decidueye still struggles against it this isn't as much of an issue, and I also feel that its flaws are generally easy to circumvent due to the good synergy it has with a lot of pretty splashable Pokemon, like Scizor, Latias, and Alolan Muk.

Thanks for reading! Hope you guys liked what I had to say :)

Yeah I also would have to disagree with Decidueye to B-. For a "sick stallbreaker" it sure struggles with the Influx of Mega Aggron rn. It also hates common threats like Hydreigon, Infernape, Alolan Muk, Scizor, Mega Aerodactyl, and Mega Altaria to a somewhat lesser extent. It has a niche as a stallbreaker but struggles otherwise in the meta, and while it has a good niche, it certainly isn't as good as Mega Blastoise, Alolan Marowak, Snorlax, and Mega Beedrill.
Also, I am going to make the controversial opinion that mega steelix should stay B. Ground type is actually very viable atm thanks to being able to shut down VoltTurn and being able to deal with Mega Manetric much better. It deals with Mega Pidgeot better than mega Aggron imo thanks to higher special defense. Also agree with Rhyperior to B-. It's a really good slappable mon on a team to check a Plethora of threats. Really Solid mon and B- reflects that much better than C.

 

[dingbat]

A- --> A: I realized during the suspect how underappreciated Mega Sharpedo was, despite the introduction of Breloom and the increased usage of Mega Manectric. It pressures the living fuck outta stall harder than it did before since Mega Aero is being used fairly infrequently and it especially exploits the living hell out of Mega Slowbro stall since it can just come in, mega evolve immediately, and damn near 2hko entire teams with Crunch. Anyone that watched me on the ladder during MegaBro suspect can damn well attest how great of a wallbreaker Shark is in this meta now.

B --> C+: It sucks to be a Volt Switch stopper that can't reliably check the aforementioned Mega Manectric. Reason I'm nominating this below B- is because on top of being severely outperformed by both Hippo and Mega Aggron, its typing overall is a rather huge liability versus most of the top threats in this meta rn and I don't really see this being any better than Rhyp right now.

It deals with Mega Pidgeot better than mega Aggron imo thanks to higher special defense.

???

Don't care either way: While alolan Muk does give coffin quite a bit of issues, I still find it extremely anti-meta because it still quite literally screws over the rest of this meta bar Blissey. Pairs fairly well with (CB) Stak too

 

[Lord Iroh]

In my opinion, Zoroark deserves a spot in C-. Though it is not by any means superior to its dark type counterparts in the tier in hydreig, mega doom, mega absol, muk etc it still deserves recognition as a viable mon in the tier. Its ability in illusion in theory makes it capable of luring any one mon and forcing out others allowing you to have the initiative. Personally, I have found success in pairing Zoroark with possible SD or Nasty Plots users which include a few big threats in the tier like Breloom, Scizor, Celebi and Infernape. The ability along with decent speed and mixed attack stats and decent coverage and access to priority imo gives it a convincing case.

 

[Velcroc]

In my opinion, Zoroark deserves a spot in C-. Though it is not by any means superior to its dark type counterparts in the tier in hydreig, mega doom, mega absol, muk etc it still deserves recognition as a viable mon in the tier. [1] Its ability in illusion in theory makes it capable of luring any one mon and forcing out others allowing you to have the initiative. [2] Personally, I have found success in pairing Zoroark with possible SD or Nasty Plots users which include a few big threats in the tier like Breloom, Scizor, Celebi and Infernape. The ability along with decent speed and mixed attack stats and decent coverage and access to priority imo gives it a convincing case.[3]

[1] Sorry to say this but zoroark is utter trash. It's not a case of X being bad (although Zoroark was C+/C last gen; you know the meta without the massive Gen 7 power creep™ ) but rather a case of W, Y and Z simply outclassing it in anything it can accomplish. All the pokemon you just mentioned do zoroark's role better in every single way possible.

[2] You know what? Fair point. Illusion works. In theory. And while it is a significant of an ability to make it banned from RU, UU and RU are completely different metas. For a start, RU is a much slower paced meta with the fastest viable mon being Aerodactyl (jolteon is garbage), meaning that 339 speed (base 105) is a decent speed. RU also has different walls and different offensive pokemon for zoroark to break/pair up with (respectively). Incidentally, nearly all walls or defensive pokemon in RU are weak to zoroark somehow (be it super effective coverage or knock off). The pokemon zoroark would normally pair up with in RU are also completely useless here (i.e. Virizion) or have better partners (i.e. Salazzle). Bottom line, illusion is a gimmick.

[3] Most people would probably ask for replays and they are absolutely free to do that. However, I'll spare you that hassle and focus on what you just said here. Firstly, you make a distinction between SD (or physical) Zoroark and NP (or special) Zoroark in an attempt to show the pokemon is versatile (ala Infernape). However, simply listing it isn't going to convince anyone. You need calculations and you need relevant targets to hit. Your case could have been cemented if there were accompanying calculations as a boosted zoroark does quite a lot. It even happens to beat different checks with different sets.

Seriously, some of these calcs are pretty crazy:

Calcs

SD:
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Zoroark Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 124+ Def Scizor: 286-337 (83.3 - 98.2%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Zoroark Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 92 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 213-251 (58.5 - 68.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Zoroark Sucker Punch vs. 92 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 153-182 (42 - 50%) -- 90.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
NP:
+3 252 SpA Life Orb Zoroark Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 619-728 (86.6 - 101.9%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Zoroark Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 72+ SpD Amoonguss: 244-289 (56.4 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Zoroark Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Sylveon: 192-229 (48.7 - 58.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Zoroark Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 180+ SpD Empoleon: 244-289 (65.5 - 77.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

However, these all rely on the assumption you: a) set up b) aren't phased or knocked out c) Use life orb instead of a Z-move (meaning you have to decide between recoil and that sweet sucker punch damage on Azu - quite the ultimatum)

Good calcs but in all honesty we're chock full of dark types. We're filled to the brim with dark types. We eat, sleep and breathe dark types. We have 6 UU dark types, 1 other BL2 and whatever Honchkrow is doing in C-. And just like any other type, dark types tend to form patterns in role assingment. We have special sweepers (Houndoom, Hydra), SD'ers (Daunt, Absol), Scarfers (Hydra and Krook), Sweepers (Shark, Absol, Daunt, Hydra, Doom, Krow. Hell, even Muk and Krook) and who can forget pursuit trappers (Mainly Muk and Krook tbh but Absol and Krow can work too). If you paid close attention, you would nbotice that I listed almost every offensive role. And that's why Zoroark should not be ranked. Not because it's intrinsically bad, not because it doesn't have a use but because it's outclassed by a dark type in nearly every subrank. If you need a dark type, chances are zoroark is your last pick.

The nomination was still a brave one and I commend you for that. If I only I were that brave for nominating durant...

Edits: Just some touch ups here and there. Touch ups range from grammatical changes to the addition of entire sentences.

 

[Katy]

[1] Sorry to say this but zoroark is utter trash. It's not a case of X being bad (although Zoroark was C+/C last gen; you know the meta without the massive Gen 7 power creep™ ) but rather a case of W, Y and Z simply outclassing it in anything it can accomplish. All the pokemon you just mentioned do zoroark's role better in every single way possible.

[2] You know what? Fair point. Illusion works. In theory. And while it is a significant of an ability to make it banned from RU, UU and RU are completely different metas. For a start, RU is a much slower paced meta with the fastest viable mon being Aerodactyl (jolteon is garbage), meaning that 339 speed (base 105) is a decent speed. RU also has different walls and different offensive pokemon for zoroark to break/pair up with (respectively). Incidentally, nearly all walls or defensive pokemon in RU are weak to zoroark somehow (be it super effective coverage or knock off). The pokemon zoroark would normally pair up with in RU are also completely useless here (i.e. Virizion) or have better partners (i.e. Salazzle). Bottom line, illusion is a gimmick.

[3] Most people would probably ask for replays and they are absolutely free to do that. However, I'll spare you that hassle and focus on what you just said here. Firstly, you make a distinction between SD (or physical) Zoroark and NP (or special) Zoroark in an attempt to show the pokemon is versatile (ala Infernape). However, simply listing it isn't going to convince anyone. You need calculations and you need relevant targets to hit. Your case could have been cemented if there were accompanying calculations as a boosted zoroark does quite a lot. It even happens to beat different checks with different sets.

Seriously, some of these calcs are pretty crazy:

Calcs

SD:
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Zoroark Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 124+ Def Scizor: 286-337 (83.3 - 98.2%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Zoroark Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 92 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 213-251 (58.5 - 68.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Zoroark Sucker Punch vs. 92 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 153-182 (42 - 50%) -- 90.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
NP:
+3 252 SpA Life Orb Zoroark Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 619-728 (86.6 - 101.9%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Zoroark Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 72+ SpD Amoonguss: 244-289 (56.4 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Zoroark Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Sylveon: 192-229 (48.7 - 58.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Zoroark Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 180+ SpD Empoleon: 244-289 (65.5 - 77.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

However, these all rely on the assumption you: a) set up b) aren't phased or knocked out c) Use life orb instead of a Z-move (meaning you have to decide between recoil and that sweet sucker punch damage on Azu - quite the ultimatum)

Good calcs but in all honesty we're chock full of dark types. We're filled to the brim with dark types. We eat, sleep and breathe dark types. We have 6 UU dark types, 1 other BL2 and whatever Honchkrow is doing in C-. And just like any other type, dark types tend to form patterns in role assingment. We have special sweepers (Houndoom, Hydra), SD'ers (Daunt, Absol), Scarfers (Hydra and Krook), Sweepers (Shark, Absol, Daunt, Hydra, Doom, Krook. Hell, even Muk and Krow) and who can forget pursuit trappers (Mainly Muk and Krook tbh but Absol and Krow can work too). If you paid close attention, you would nbotice that I listed almost every offensive role. And that's why Zoroark should not be ranked. Not because it's intrinsically bad, not because it doesn't have a use but because it's outclassed by a dark type in nearly every subrank. If you need a dark type, chances are zoroark is your last pick.

The nomination was still a brave one and I commend you for that. If I only I were that brave for nominating durant...

Edits: Just some touch ups here and there. Touch ups range from grammatical changes to the addition of entire sentences.

Hello, I think you underestimate Zoroark a bit with simply saying Illusion is a meme. It has a role imho due to that in the UU tier. Also the fact it gets a wide movepool helps it out. Nasty Plot and also SD are great setup moves, bringing you to a +2 and moves like Sludge Bomb, Flamethrwer and the Dpulse coverage is pretty good. It is able to check Mega Altaria, Celebi, Chandelure which are all not rare mons at the UU tier. Sure Mega Houndoom does the job way better, but I think Zoroark can still fit on teams. So I wanna say:

From Unranked to C

 

[Velcroc]

Brace yourselves, folks. This is a long one.

The two users suggesting the ranking of Zoroark (Katy and Lord Iroh) make valid points despite reaching a horribly wrong conclusion. However, I decided to focus on Katy's argument for the sake of this post whilst making references to Iroh's one. I'm also flexing my essay writing skills.
Protip: You can skip everything if you really don't care but just focus on the last two paragraphs (conclusion and the final point; in case I write anything more)

Hello, I think you underestimate Zoroark a bit with simply saying Illusion is a meme. It has a role imho due to that in the UU tier. Also the fact it gets a wide movepool helps it out. Nasty Plot and also SD are great setup moves, bringing you to a +2 and moves like Sludge Bomb, Flamethrwer and the Dpulse coverage is pretty good. It is able to check Mega Altaria, Celebi, Chandelure which are all not rare mons at the UU tier. Sure Mega Houndoom does the job way better, but I think Zoroark can still fit on teams. So I wanna say:

Man, you are wrong on so many levels. I take it you just skimmed through my post? That's what it sounds like judging by your response. Let me break it down ™.

Hello, I think you underestimate Zoroark a bit with simply saying Illusion is a meme.

No, I did not. Let's see what I actually said.

[2] You know what? Fair point. Illusion works. In theory. (Side note: I didn't even have to emphasise this, LMAO)

Hmmm. Doesn't sound like I dismissed it as a "meme" now did I. I also happened to justify this by saying it wasn't worth it in this meta by saying that the reason it got banned in RU has no implication on its viability in this meta. That is (in simple words): Illusion was good enough for it to be banned in RU but not good enough for it's ranking in UU.

I'd also like to take you a minute to tell you the difference between a gimmick and a meme. A gimmick is a specific strategy that is based on the assumption that the opponent doesn't know what you're doing. A meme is an ironic team that aims to be as badly made as possible. A meme is also a pokemon that gained attention for being notoriously bad. I'll change this if you on mobile

I mean come on, this is a tangent

For example:
Curse Alolan Muk = Gimmick
Ambipom = Meme
as is this

Now, Zoroark's illusion ability sounds like a gimmick doesn't it. Zoroark's ability is based on the opponent not knowing which pokemon is Zoroark (which is difficult to pull off as I will explain later). It also hasn't received enough attention to be as infamously bad as ambipom.

Also the fact it gets a wide movepool helps it out. Nasty Plot and also SD are great setup moves, bringing you to a +2 and moves like Sludge Bomb, Flamethrwer and the Dpulse coverage is pretty good.

Hold on! Did someone say a wide m o v e p o o l ?! Let's see what Zoroark actually has other than hidden powers.
Physical:
*Knock off
*Sucker Punch
*Low Kick
*Shadow Claw
*Pursuit
*U-turn

Special:
*Dark Pulse
*Flamethrower
*Sludge Bomb
*Focus Blast
*Extrasensory
*Shadow Ball
*Grass Knot

Status/Utility:
*Taunt
*Foul Play (technically a move, but practically utility)
*SD/NP
*Pursuit (The other half of the time)
*Substitute
*Agility/ Calm Mind (outclassed set up moves)
*And Toxic and Protect (you don't get points for these)

As you can see, we have a colourful physical movepool consisting of 5 moves! Sounds like a spectacular Swords Dance breaker that isn't outclassed by Terrakion, Cobalion, Gliscor, Scizor, Breloom and even stuff like M-Aboma, Gatr, Absol and everybody's favourite Crawdaunt! Come on. You aren't even trying. This thing is outclassed every way to Sunday over here.

On the nasty plot side, it's alright. It has to contend against stuff like the Monkey King, Luke Skywalker and Cerberus (all pokemon that can break through the same/similar stuff) but it does have a wide m o v e p o o l. Too wide, in fact. You usually end up having TOO many moves to fit in one slot and end up missing out on coverage. For the nasty plot set this is already compounded due to having two moves set moves (Nasty Plot and Dark pulse) and you would have to choose moves accordingly. Without flamethrower or focus blast, steels are a lot tougher to face (particularly scizor) and without sludge bomb, you miss out on hitting fairies. While Sludge Bomb, Flamethrower and Dark pulse hit most of the meta, you still miss out on walls such as Blissey (which is crucial) and the odd RU walls such as Umbreon (which has inner focus to avoid flinches) and Snorlax. And that's not including the merits of the other moves

Now let us see what it "checks". Mega Altaria.

Well, that's a wonderful first impression right there. Mega Altaria. Mega. Altaria. You do realise it'd be a pain to switch into mega altaria. And if you do happen to, it could just dragon dance in your face. Or chunks you. Listen, simply having poison move =/= fairy check. Especially if you're 'checking' one of the most resilient and versatile mons in this meta. Sure, Mega Alt can't exactly switch in but that doesn't mean that zoro checks it.

Moving on, Celebi. Now this could actually be somewhat correct. However, Celebi also has a high chance of running Colbur Berry meaning it could still end up tanking a sucker punch and end up Ko'ing it back. Other than that, zoroark does soft check it. Chandelure. Hahaha. Nice one. Good luck tanking a specs fire blast and flamethrower. At best, Zoroark is a revenge killer.

You Keep Using That Word, I Do Not Think It Means What You Think It Means

The argument you used in this post was rather telling. It appears as if you are not acquainted with what a "check", "counter" or "revenge-killer" is. There is a Smogon article about it which I highly recommend you read as well as this thread . Both are excellent resources that can help understand these concepts in further detail.

Illusion is also not a reliable ability in UU. At best it may fool an experienced player a few times here and there; however, every time you switch out, it becomes harder and harder to conceal zoroark due to hazards. This means zoroark requires hazard control in order to work effectively. You know what else does: Mega Houndoom. So ironically, Zoroark doesn't even patch up Mega Doom's allergy to stealth rocks (and hazards in general) because of its ability; to put it simply, it's a poor man's Houndoom. Even if your team had another Mega, I'd still prefer Hydreigon over it. It offers more speed control (scarf), more momentum and the ability to break past fairies via Z-Belch. It even has the ability to pair up with other dragons and dark types to pressure the opposing checks (Dragon Spam being good with M'Alt and Dark Spam being good in general due to lack of viable and reliable dark resistances in Pokemon as a whole - the ones that are don't like taking coverage to the face).

So no, Zoroark does not fill any role in UU. Even if it does, it fits its role on 1 or 2 teams. The Viability Rankings focuses on the meta as a whole. One or two teams are never an accurate representation of any metagame in any video game.

Which brings me to my final point:

Why would you rank a mon that is so thoroughly outclassed?

Honestly, this reminds me of that Sneasel nomination a while back based on the merit "Since weavile was ranked why can't sneasel be too!!!1!". And frankly, this nomination reeks of the same pungent notion. Except it's: "Why is this mon not ranked it's BL2 !!1!!". And out of all the BL2 mons, Zoroark is the least viable. Out of the unranked mons, Durant is far, far, far better and even Sharpedo (base form) outclasses it and has an even better match up against offense. I brought this up in the last post but zoroark is outclassed by something in almost every. single. ranking. Skeptical? Well...

Here you go

D-Rank -> Nothing really comparable but Ambipom puts more pressure on offense. Both are equally bad. Arcanine also has a much larger niche in general.

And here's some more

C-
Honchkrow (mentioned it in the previous post),
Cloyster (better sweeper with actual utility),
Stoutland (better sweeper; granted weather. About the same level of viability if zoro wasn't so outclassed)

C
Barbaracle (Shell Smash)
Chesnaught (Belly Drum with perks thanks to bulletproof)
Entei (Physical wall breaker that's more difficult to switch into)
Gatr (Better set up move in DD and Sheer force + LO combo)
Linoone (Not too sure what this guy's niche is; maybe something to do with belly drum and how it's difficult to kill this thing under veil. Perhaps that)
Lycanroc (Might as well abbreviate the moves to SD, BD and so on) SD btw

C+
Aboma (Mentioned)
Absol (Likewise)
Decidueye (SD + Trapper)
Hoopa (NP + Sub)
Reuniclus (actually takes hits)
Talon (SD and Gale Wings)
Venomoth (QD)
Zygarde (Good matchup against Rotom Volt-turn (rip); Good spikes abuser; reliable priority (move acronyms too ig, ExtremeSpeed)

B-
Bewear (SD, Actual wallbreaker)
Crawdaunt
Toxicroak (Better ability, better typing)

B
Celebi (NP and SD lure)
Doublade (SD + Bulk)
Haxorus (Breaks stall so hard it's not even funny)
Kommo-o (Wallbreaks with SD, DD or BD)
Luke (SD and NP)
Necro (Odd SD & CM sets but a rocker with actual utility)
Salazzle (NP; defines this rank)
Sceptile (SD + Speed)

B+
NOT Azelf (NP sets are worse than zoro tbh)
Houndoom Mega
Terrakion (SD)

A-
Krook (Pursuiter)
Sharpedo (Sweeper)
Heracross (Sd + Guts + a stall team's nightmare)
Togekiss (NP + ParaFlinch + stallbreaker)

A
Infernape (Literally every set)
Breloom (Sd + good priority)
Cobalion (DualDance with SD and Rock Polish - Terrak does this too btw)
Muk Alola (Pursuit traps nearly every special attacker)

A+
Mega Aero (The odd Hone Claws)
Altaria (DD + Bulk + Defensive utility)
Hydreigon (scarfer)

S
Scizor (SD sets with numerous variation)
Gliscor (SD Stallbreaker)
Azu (BD)

Italic = fulfills niche outlined in the two posts and my post

Conclusion
Before you call me a "smogonite" for proving you wrong let me explain two things as clearly as I can humanly possible: I do not oppose any new rankings, in fact, I actively encourage them as they challenge the status quo (I supported Bro nom after thinking about it long and hard - for example); and I am not doing this simply to belittle you two. The nomination was, in all honesty, courageous - however flawed it may have been. The fact that you came here and contributed shows that not only this system works but that you are willing to learn. There are two types of people: those that succumb to critcism and those that learn and bounce back.

On a less sappy pretence, I would like to conclude by saying there is nothing wrong with Zoroark inherently. However, the meta as a whole is rather unkind to zoroark. Viability rankings are determined by three things: how good the mon is, its impact on the metagame (being meta defining or anti-meta) and competition from other Pokemon. Zoroark has the first criteria down pat and you can somewhat justify the second by saying zoroark is an anti-meta pick. However, what is indisputable is that Zoroark is immensely outclassed by not only fellow dark types (1st post for more) but also by almost every set up sweeper in the tier (even excluding other niches/moves such as Dragon Dancer, Belly Drummer, Curser and so on and focusing on NP and SD).

This is why it must stay unranked

Thoughts on all of this

Man, this probably the second time I've accused of underestimating a pokemon (the first being by Geezer during the Volcanion Escapade) without the people actually reading what I wrote. Look, I realise that my writing style is pretentious and a little unbearable but if you want to prove me wrong, you have to get past this and critically analyse my work for what it is instead of reaching blind conclusions. This brash attitude to criticism and skepticism is one of the reasons why Youtube "debates" are so bloody awful.

Anyways, here's my 2 cents on the other nominations:
* Rhyperior is the most based mon I've ever seen. This thing can legitimately 1v1 gliscor if it needs to be. 100% for its rise.
* Don't Drop the Wasp - especially considering we need to see how the meta will evolve afterwards (gliscor leaving means it's hard countered by one less thing).
* Ambivalent on Shark but since Slowbro is hot rn, Agree
* Celebi is cool, even cooler is the fact that it can set up so easily on Hippo and Co. and break through stall/bulky/balance teams.
* Hoopa should stay C+, imo. While Alo Muk is a bit of a thorn in the side, Hoopa can potentially break through it with sub + NP + Fightinium. If anything, the presence of Gengar hurts it more (+usage of alo muk + a bit of competition)
* I say no to Swellow, bro. This can change though.

Nothing else to add (which incidentally describes why I lurk).

 

[Jade]

Disagree with Altaria rising a rank, doesnt look S worthy at all. Its nowhere near as centralizing as the big 4 and not the best out of the A+ mons. DD got better with Amoong leaving but still has other common checks. Special already beat Amoong on the switch in if it hit both Fire Blasts, so it didnt really get too improved. Even in a universe without Amoong, I dont think Alt is comparable to the big 4 in S. Id really like to hear how Alt would be S worthy even with Amoong gone. In fact, Ill compare it to the S mons:

Latias: Versatile, decent typing, can fulfill basically any role, splashable. Deserved.

Azumarill: Splashable, versatile, good typing. Deserved (pls ban btw).

Gliscor: Splashable, versatile, good typing. Deserved.

Scizor: Splashable, versatile, good typing. Deserved.

As you can see, the 4 S mons all have multiple things in common, whether it be good typing, being versatile, or being splashable. Now lets look at Alt:

Splashable: Okay, I admit Altaria is rather splashable. Dragon/Fairy is a really good typing and allows it to check common metagame threats like Latias, Breloom, etc.

Versatile: I wouldnt say its TOO versatile. Really the only sets ive seen are DD, mixed wall, and wall (the last of which is rlly only run on stall).

Good typing: Yes.

What holds Altaria back is that a lot of things in the current meta annoy it such as Scizor, Mega Aggron, Sylveon, Moltres, etc.

Agree with Loom, pretty much everything has been said about this thing to make it rise-worthy.

 

[Hilomilo]

I think that we should wait a day or two to pick up on metagame trends just because Amoonguss leaving was a matter of not even a day ago. Not saying that Breloom and Mega Altaria should or shouldn't rise on account of one of their better checks leaving the metagame, though it's still hard to know what exactly will happen just as the new metagame is beginning.

On another note, it is with pure joy that I announce that Forretress has finally been removed from the rankings. Ambipom and Amoonguss were also removed, in the case of the former because it is no longer UU and isn't viable enojugh to warrant a rank in this thread, and in the case of the latter because it is now OU by usage and illegal in UU as a result. Happy posting! Just make sure you don't rush into things given how young our current meta is :)

 

[Dreadfury]

I'm probably jumping the gun a bit here, but I'd like to make a rather controversial nomination of my own here:

Vileplume to C+ or B- (leaning towards C+ though)

Vileplume always had a niche in the tier and its current ranking of C reflects this quite well, but after the loss of Amoonguss to a spike in usage in a much shittier tier OU this thing's niche has become far more pronounced and I really feel like, despite this recency, it warrants a rise.

First, let's get Vileplume's cons out of the way: it suffers from a fair bit of 4MSS, and it really wishes it could run all of Giga Drain, Sludge Wave, Gastro Acid, Strength Sap, Sleep Powder, Stun Spore, and HP Fire (to hit steels and particularly Scizor) but it can't. In addition, it lacks a lot of firepower since it needs to run a considerable amount of defensive investment to survive hits it wants to tank, despite having a higher Special Attack stat than its other Grass/Poison counterpart Venusaur. Because of its lacking offensive capabilities, Vileplume requires a fair bit of team support to truly shine: Magneton makes for a pretty solid partner if Vileplume isn't running HP Fire since it deals with the ubiquitous Scizor (though Strength Sap can ironically check Choice Banded variants from full since it outheals the damage from one hit and then proceeds to stall it out unless it crits). Nevertheless, I've often struggled to find the perfect support for Vileplume since it obviously isn't as self-sustainable as Amoonguss (and man do I wish this thing got Clear Smog) but I still feel that C+ or B- reflects this well, especially since Vileplume isn't strictly outclassed anymore. Lastly, a lot of the tier's premiere Special attackers, like Latias, go to town on Vileplume. Thus, Vileplume really appreciates some Pursuit support specifically to deal with Latias.

Now for the good stuff. For frame of reference, the set I run is this:

Vileplume @ Poisonium Z
Ability: Effect Spore
Nature: Bold (+Def -Atk) (IVs: 0 Atk)

EVs: 252 HP / 88 Def / 168 Speed

Move 1: Strength Sap
Move 2: Sludge Bomb
Move 3: Giga Drain
Move 4: Gastro Acid / Hidden Power Fire / Sleep Powder

Every single thing listed here has a purpose, though many aspects of this set may seem quite unorthodox at a glance:

• The Speed investment allows Vileplume to hit 178 Speed, allowing it to outspeed typical offensive Azumarill variants (and it can creep those that want to creep it at the cost of a little bit of bulk).
• Its HP is maxed out and the rest of its EVs are dumped into Defense so it can best check the things it's meant to check. It's still able to live a +2 Serperior's Breakneck Blitz from full about 43% of the time if push comes to shove.
• Vileplume's abilities aren't anything to write home about, but Effect Spore can occasionally come in really clutch by crippling something that makes contact with it (one of my replays showcases this quite nicely) and it's certainly better than Chlorophyll in a Droughtless meta. Being able to potentially Paralyze, Poison, or inflict Sleep on a contact move is way better than nothing.
• Strength Sap is the reason why you would even consider using Vileplume. It offers a very consistent and powerful heal and guarantees an Attack drop. When dealing with Breloom and Azumarill, this is crucial: both have very high Attack stats and Strength Sap consequently heals for a tremendous amount more, allowing Vileplume to repeatedly pressure them. If Breloom wishes to Swords Dance up, Vileplume can just Strength Sap and consequently put itself out of Breakneck Blitz OHKO range, forcing Breloom to either go for the full commitment and use the Z-move and get Sapped again, thus wasting its nuking potential, or risk going for a second Swords Dance, which can be swiftly punished by a Sludge Bomb. In Azumarill's case, all Choice Banded variants fail to OHKO Vileplume from full (and Ice Punch is a hell of a commitment to run regardless since you lose one of Liquidation/Knock Off/Aqua Jet/Play Rough) and get swiftly dispatched with a Sludge Bomb if weakened and an Acid Downpour if at full, or Vileplume can just go for the Strength Sap and force Azumarill to switch out instead. If at full HP, Vileplume has a chance to live a +6 Azumarill's Knock Off or Play Rough (it gets destroyed by Ice Punch if it opts to run Ice Punch though) and proceeds to either kill it or, again, stall it out with Strength Sap since it basically guarantees a full heal every time it's used. The -1 Attack it inflicts also allows it to not be a complete momentum sap (pun 100% intended) since an array of Physical attackers won't appreciate having to play around potential switches when they're doing two-thirds the normal damage.
• Sludge Bomb is Vileplume's strongest consistent STAB option and it hits Serperior, Azumarill, and Breloom for tremendous damage, and its Acid Downpour will OHKO all Azumarill and Serperior variants, including Sap Sipper+Whirlpool+Perish Song Azumarill variants.
• Giga Drain doesn't see quite as much use but it does considerable damage to Suicune, Hippowdon, Alomomola, Mega Bro, and the like.
• The last moveslot is a rather strange case: Sleep Powder, despite not being Spore levels of broken, allows you to cripple something willing to come in on Vileplume and deal with it with the rest of your team. Hidden Power Fire allows you to not be setup fodder for Scizor and does some damage to other Steels, although Scizor is its primary target and you may as well run this exclusively to hit Scizor since it's not really doing enough to other Steels regardless. Gastro Acid is definitely the most unorthodox option here, but removing certain abilities, like Poison Heal from Gliscor and the Breloom variants I never see, Technician from Scizor and the Breloom variants I always see, Huge Power from Azumarill, Tough Claws from Mega Aerodactyl, Regenerator from Alomomola, Natural Cure from Blissey, Filter from Mega Aggron, Contrary from Serperior, Pixillate from Mega Altaria, Strong Jaw from Mega Sharpedo, and the like, can really make this thing a pain to predict around since a lot of threats rely on their abilities to be threats. Do note, however, that I'm not at all implying that any of these can or should already come in on Vileplume, nor am I implying that Vileplume can or should come in on them and attempt to check them; this is just a general list of things that can be nailed by Gastro Acid, either as a prediction or as a parting gift so a sweeper can take advantage of a missing ability, since a lot of things really resent losing their abilities.
• The Z-move is also chosen over Black Sludge because it minimizes damage taken from Knock Off and cannot be Tricked off. Since Azumarill is one of the things Vileplume is meant to check it really appreciates taking less damage from Banded Knock Off, as does it appreciate having even the slightest chance of living a +6 Knock Off from full HP. Ironically, this was the first thing I thought about giving Vileplume when I decided to test it out.

Now for a handful of relevant calculations:

0 SpA Vileplume Acid Downpour (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Azumarill: 492-578 (121.7 - 143%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Leftovers recovery (This is the Perish Song variant and is a guaranteed OHKO as is, so other variants get erased too.)

+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Vileplume: 324-382 (91.5 - 107.9%) -- 50% chance to OHKO (It's a guaranteed OHKO after rocks though)

252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Vileplume: 122-144 (34.4 - 40.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

0 SpA Vileplume Acid Downpour (175 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Serperior: 426-504 (146.3 - 173.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 SpA Serperior Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Vileplume: 200-236 (56.4 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252 SpA Serperior Breakneck Blitz (200 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Vileplume: 330-389 (93.2 - 109.8%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO (Another OHKO after rocks, unfortunately, but still more useful as an emergency check if at full HP than nothing; nevertheless, Alolan Muk is a good partner for this thing because of Latias and it does a good job at keeping Serperior under control if need be too.)

252+ Atk Lansat Berry Breloom Natural Gift (100 BP Flying) vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Vileplume: 226-268 (63.8 - 75.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Substitute this for any applicable super effective Natural Gift variant as needed.)

252+ Atk Breloom Breakneck Blitz (200 BP) vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Vileplume: 226-266 (63.8 - 75.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 SpA Vileplume Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Breloom: 320-378 (122.6 - 144.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Some of these are admittedly kinda shaky, but Vileplume is functioning more as a good check than a good counter; I already explained why Breloom is generally at a disadvantage anyway, and most Azumarill variants have a hard time dealing with Vileplume anyway. Serperior is definitely the shakiest but it's still doable enough. And as mentioned earlier, Vileplume still has the tools to deal with other relevant threats in the UU metagame. It just struggles against other Special Attackers, but, again, it's not meant to check Latias, Hydreigon, and the like anyway.

Now that's all good and well in theory, but does it work in practice? Well, I'm certainly not the best UU player by any margin but I figured I'd test it out for myself. Here are two replays I had of Vileplume doing something pretty relevant, and I'm very confident that a more competent UU player can showcase Vileplume far better than I did both with predictions and with team support:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-731998335

This was admittedly a pretty bad showing on my part very early on, and I lost Magneton very early to an Earth Power I should've seen coming from a mile away, but after a crucial Draco Meteor miss from my opponent I regained momentum and won from there. Though Specs Kyurem obviously did the most work by far, dispatching of Mega Manectric, Togekiss, Empoleon, and Arcanine pretty easily, Vileplume did exactly three things here that were absolutely crucial: it baited and ate Breloom's Spore, forced Breloom to switch out, and it proceeded to do huge damage to the Arcanine that pressured it into healing. Vileplume's ability to threaten Breloom quite easily can never be ignored. My opponent admittedly could've been better, but consistently putting pressure on Breloom was essential as it can all too easily stop Kyurem from doing some crazy damage by cutting its rampage short.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-731814919

This, on the other hand, was Vileplume at its finest. It successfully managed to force my opponent's Breloom to switch out, it was able to Strength Sap the Defog Scizor, removing Serene Grace from Togekiss allowed me to far more easily pressure it with Scizor, and I was quite easily able to gain momentum from there on out. I opted to sac my Scizor to Stakataka (not a very smart option in hindsight, but it worked out) in order to trap and promptly eliminate it with Magneton, and Magneton proceeded to clean up quite nicely although I came pretty close to getting Flinch Haxed to death. After Magneton did its job I proceeded to use Vileplume as my wincon against the Breloom. The definitive MVP here was Effect Spore; deciding to simply get some high chip damage with U-turn ended up resulting in my opponent's complete downfall, and the Paralysis would've arguably been a better option. It's inconsistent, but Vileplume does a pretty good job at making U-turn spammers reconsider just freely throwing out the move.

I'll probably try to get a few more replays over the course of the next couple days so I can really put Vileplume to the test against stuff like Serperior and Azumarill (if anyone has any team options I'm all ears by the way), of course.

Anyway, to quickly summarize this enormous post/nomination: Vileplume requires a bit of support to function well, but with Amoonguss leaving the tier its niche as a defensive Serperior, Azumarill, and Breloom check is now far, far more pronounced. Thus I would like to push for its rise to C+ or, potentially, higher.

EDIT: Taking the liberty of adding additional replays showcasing Vileplume every so often, starting with this:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-732386726

This was a different account but I conveniently ran into the same person you may have seen in one of the previous replays. This time, though, I got a much better showcase of Vileplume both forcing Breloom out early on and giving me a lot of momentum by healing all the damage his Beedrill's U-turn did to it and giving his Stakataka -1 Attack, rendering Vileplume much harder to kill, and pestering his Togekiss on the switch with Gastro Acid although the more optimal play would've been an Acid Downpour (which would've been a hype but risky play; this showcases how much Vileplume ended up pestering his team. Though Specs Kyurem did a lot of work this game, as it should, Vileplume functioned as an incredible wincon at the end, completely walling his Breloom set and easily managing to stay relatively healthy to check Beedrill. When the Beedrill finally came out, Vileplume absolutely went to town on it; though a crit would've obviously killed, its Poison Jab didn't do enough to kill Vileplume, and Strength Sap thus kept Vileplume out of even a crit's kill range. From there Beedrill was kinda forced to just attack into Vileplume as it outhealed it. It procced a Paralysis Effect Spore eventually, and I got Gastro Acid off to ultimately solidify my win against the Beedrill.

This was a VERY good showcase of Vileplume. It did everything it needed to but I didn't expect it to effectively wall Mega Beedrill like this on top of keeping Breloom away. I definitely wanna try exploring this thing a lot more!