Metagame Views From The Council [ SEE POST 716 ]

[BigFatMantis]

Kind of impressive we went through all of 2023 without mentioning sleep clause (This is the old PR thread from 2021-2022 that has points on both sides).

Considering Darkrai entering the tier with Hypnosis sets is what sort of triggered this discussion, it seems like the issue (if there is one) is more Darkrai than sleep. Was sleep an issue before Darkrai was in the tier? As in, an actual issue that needed tiering action to stabilize the metagame?

If we want to talk about cart mechanics then I think it’s fair to talk about both sleep and freeze clause, but if cart mechanics are the reason to take action then we can’t pick and choose, either stay true to cart or keep both clauses that have kept these two statuses in check for years of competitive mons.

 

[Akalli]

Fully support going forward with this, Sleep has always been an uncompetitive mechanic and I believe the tier can only be better as a result of this. Darkrai would be a total non issue if we didn't hold on to an historic clause just for the sake that it's historic. I have never seen a mon, even past ubers in OU, reach such a level of uncompetition granted you hit your moves.

the hypnosis valiant variants used to be dumb but at least you had viable counterplay in gholdengo. Darkrai is even more stupid tho, as you're able to run sash or wide lens, basically having two chances at hitting hypnosis or simply more accuracy (trust me, even the small raise to 66% is huge and matters a lot).

Point B) is also very correct, not having a set turn where you're gonna wake up is uncompetitive as hell. It's unfortunate I have to say that Amoonguss will get caught in the crossfire, but realistically it never had a chance in the tier anyway for obvious reasons.

edit: after reading blunders and ziozios post ive kinda changed my mind, I still think sleep is broken and the random layers of rng is uncompetitive, but Darkrai is clearly the sole reason of why it’s broken right now, and why this discussion came up in the first place, so anyway either we ban darkrai or we ban sleep moves, the two of them can't coexist it’s as simple as it sounds

Misty Terrain, Electric Terrain, Taunt, Lum Berry, Substitute, even Sleep Talk. The means of dealing with Sleep Status are more diverse than Freeze and we do not have Freeze Clause.

This post feels like it's been written in bad faith, are we really mentionning Misty terrain and Electric terrain in SV as Sleep counterplay? Have you ever, ever seen a Darkrai or an Iron Valiant being taunted? Lum berry is not a consistent counterplay at all and substitute falls into the same category, it's not going to work if the mon has a ridiculous speed tier.

 

[Ehmcee]

I've personally been an advocate for removing sleep clause for a while now, in my opinion we should be striving to play a game as close to the cartridge format as possible when it comes to mods and what not.

Freeze Clause Mod would need to be removed right with Sleep Clause.

Freeze Clause has only been instated in Gen 1, 2, 3 and 4, this policy decision in no way will affect old gens at all.

Any discussion of removing Sleep Clause Mod on the basis of being a mod should put all other mods into question as well. Battle Timers (complete with move animation times) would need to be added, to replicate console battles timing out. Endless Battle Clause would be removed on the basis of all battles eventually ending. Freeze Clause Mod would need to be removed right with Sleep Clause. Trying to replicate the console games would need to be an all or nothing option, as picking and choosing which parts to retain and which to mod goes against the original argument.

This is a silly argument, we can easily strive to play as close as possible to the original cartridge format without it being and all or nothing decision. Picking and choosing is actually something we should do as a community.

I also personally dislike calling it Sleep "Clause", because it isn't a clause, it's a Mod. Most quality of life decision smogon has decided to implement don't directly change how the game is played. They're all replicable through things like third party arbiters for things like the Cancel button, and the timer is quite frankly something not a single user realistically wants to remove.

Also yeah, sleep is broken too :P

 

[Tio Chico]

This post feels like it's been written in bad faith, are we really mentionning misty terrain and electric terrain in gen 9 as sleep counterplay? Have you ever, ever seen a Darkrai or an Iron Valiant being taunted? Let's be serious for a second, Lum Berry? I have never seen a mon run lum berry in this gen. Substitute falls into the same category, it's not going to work if the mon has a ridiculous speed tier.

Maybe a hint of irony, but not bad faith. Okay about the terrains although Weezing-Galar is underrated and Sleep Talk is a real gimmick. I don't see Lum Berry in a bad light, but you mentioning Darkrai and Iron Valiant and not mentioning mushrooms is perhaps a good indication of the direction that should be followed.

 

[Ehmcee]

Follow up question, in the case of a ban of sleep moves, how would the council handle moves with a secondary chance of putting pokemon to sleep? Thinking particularly Dire Claw (still usable on Smeargle) and Relic Song.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Follow up question, in the case of a ban of sleep moves, how would the council handle moves with a secondary chance of putting pokemon to sleep? Thinking particularly Dire Claw (still usable on Smeargle) and Relic Song.

relic song was mentioned as being exempt alongside effect spore, but i don't know about dire claw. i don't think sneasler should be allowed into ou ever again in any gen with a viable terrain setter even without dire claw, and smeargle will become completely irrelevant without spore, so i don't think we really need to worry about which way dire claw goes

 

[HydreigonTheChild]

Sleep is broken. Why?

Well counterplay to smth like darkrai, iron valiant, or ninetales trying to sleep u can go either way ... for ex. i dont know thye have hypnosis so i go amoonguss against iron valiant and get slept... now they go heatran and have free progress making. Even if they miss they can easily go for it again and have a 15% chance to miss both..

if you know darkrai is gonna toss sleep and lets say u go to alommola to sleep sack so u can go to ur clef or valiant ... well if they miss now what... maybe they will just click it again or maybe they just click dark pulse and do good amount of damage but undoubtably ur prob going to sleep...

vs offense sleep is just unfair... hitting hypnosis and just turning the tide or losing is just not fun. Imagine iron valiant using sleep on ur booster energy tusk and just sleeping it and setting up all over it and getting 3 turns

And... finally. What is the benefit of keeping sleep in the tier? Do we gain anything... a big part of DNB gliscor was that gliscor was a healthy defensive wall for the metagame but smth like chien pao or ursaluna BM didnt add anything and was very broken... so what does sleep add here? RNG of missing the move and having 60/40's from it? The amount of turns you stay asleep? What does keeping sleep accomplish

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2024200413?p2 winning due to good sleep roles...
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2024021055 slept the amoonguss and basically forced them into a catch 50/50 of you are screwed... if i missed i could have easily eaten a spore. They even got 1 turn but what if they got 3
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2019136430 allowed me to put manaphy out of commision and i even missed a sleep... what if i hit and got 3 turns.. i wouldve flipped this game on its head

 

[TheDuckChris]

Kind of impressive we went through all of 2023 without mentioning sleep clause (This is the old PR thread from 2021-2022 that has points on both sides).

If we want to talk about cart mechanics then I think it’s fair to talk about both sleep and freeze clause, but if cart mechanics are the reason to take action then we can’t pick and choose, either stay true to cart or keep both clauses that have kept these two statuses in check for years of competitive mons.

The PR thread is a great read, definitely recommend. Also on cart mechanics, I'm old enough to remember when Showdown tried showing Hp in pixels (48ths if I remember correctly) cause that's all you can see on cart. And guess what we all hated it. The % we see now is an agreed upon mod because it makes the game better to play. And as a fan made metagame we have the ability to do that. Same as ignoring timers, same as sleep mod.

So I agree that cart accurate mechanics is not a reason to change something that works well for the players

 

[skippergamez]

I think Sleep Moves Clause has literally zero negatives, it does have collateral (tho tbf it’s really only Amoonguss), but sleep is uncompetitive.

also the reason there’s no freeze clause is that’s there’s no reliable way to freeze and it’s not just dumb like in RBY/GSC, just dumb like now

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

And... finally. What is the benefit of keeping sleep in the tier? Do we gain anything... a big part of DNB gliscor was that gliscor was a healthy defensive wall for the metagame but smth like chien pao or ursaluna BM didnt add anything and was very broken... so what does sleep add here? RNG of missing the move and having 60/40's from it? The amount of turns you stay asleep? What does keeping sleep accomplish

i still don't think this is a relevant thing to bring up. whether or not we "gain anything" from something being in the tier isn't an excuse to ban or not ban something. if something adds a lot of healthy utility to the meta but is still broken or uncompetitive, that thing should go. if something adds absolutely nothing to the tier but isn't broken or uncompetitive or unhealthy, it should still stay. for example, volcarona and gliscor added plenty of stuff to the tier, but they were still broken at the time, so they were banned. meanwhile, magikarp adds absolutely nothing to the tier, not even comedic value anymore, but it's still allowed here. the question is not "what do we gain from keeping this" or "will we miss it when it's gone", it's "is this banworthy"

and for the record, i'm going to ignore that part of me screaming "no" and say that i do consider sleep moves uncompetitive and therefore banworthy

 

[ianlazerbeem]

I find it very telling that the best counter argument for sleep ban is "yeah but what about this other completely irrelevant situation" - no analysis about the actual effect sleep has on the meta or how to respond to it from the no action crowd. Because how do you respond to the outcome of a match being determined by a 60% roll, potentially followed by a 33% roll (if it isn't already too late?) why is the counterplay to spore "take advantage of the mod we have implemented?" I've heard "but this will make Amoonguss worse" - WHO CARES? Baton Pass ban made plenty of Pokémon worse, and removing uncompetitve elements from the game has always affected viability. Never mind the fact that ppl in tournament are running AV Amoonguss, stall is running Toxic Amoonguss, Stun Spore is still a great move, and it still has REGENERATOR a super useful type and absorbs knock. The idea that removing sleep would somehow be a huge mistake or destroy the game is ridiculous. Who in their right mind looks at BW and says "you know what the problem with this tier is? I can't use sleep to cheese." Lower tiers don't matter, trying to avoid nerfing random mons doesn't matter, but what does matter is the way 1-3 free turns is certain death against HO and putting this in the hands of a 60% roll is inherently uncompetitve as is the completely insane way we respond to spore - "sleep sack?" We banned 30% ohko moves, how about we ban the one with 60% accuracy and the one with 100% accuracy

 

[Jumpheart]

meanwhile, magikarp adds absolutely nothing to the tier, not even comedic value anymore, but it's still allowed here. the question is not "what do we gain from keeping this" or "will we miss it when it's gone", it's "is this banworthy"

while i get your point comparing sleep to magikarp of all things is hilariously bad

as people have been saying, sleep is uncompetitive. we have things like sand veil and brightpowder banned. sleep, on average, gets you as many free turns per game as brightpowder does, possibly more. how is that not uncompetitive? the difference between waking up in 1 turn versus 2 can be game-deciding, let alone 1 turn vs 3.

we ban pokémon that decide games in one turn, even if they're reliant on using player predictions. why not ban something that does the same thing, but without any of the skill?

 

[Melbelle]

Freeze Clause has only been instated in Gen 1, this policy decision in no way will affect gen 1 at all.

It's in gens 1, 2, 3, and 4.
RBY main and I'm for removing it in every gen tbh, but this is a gen 9 thread where no such clause exists so..

We should remove sleep clause mod tho, banning sleep moves is a pretty easy way to do so. No real thoughts on if it's broken or uncompetitive in gen 9 (it's certainly competitive in gen 1 and I would propose removing the "mod" part, but again, not the gen 1 thread)

For moves (edit: and abilities/effect spore) with a chance of inflicting sleep, allow them, and also allow them to get lucky and get 2+ sleeps. I only like this from a purist perspective, not a sleep is uncompetitive perspective (where i have no real thoughts).

 

[MC Squared]

Sleep hasn't had a discussion like this for Gens 6-8 and now suddenly because players utilize Hypnosis Darkrai now it becomes a problem? I read through a lot of these posts and it looks like the overbearing factor is Darkrai itself. Clearly Darkrai has to be looked at instead of sleep. Keep in mind this ban would affect lower tiers too, where I don't think sleep is a big issue as it is here

 

[ianlazerbeem]

Sleep hasn't had a discussion like this for Gens 6-8 and now suddenly because players utilize Hypnosis Darkrai now it becomes a problem? I read through a lot of these posts and it looks like the overbearing factor is Darkrai itself. Clearly Darkrai has to be looked at instead of sleep. Keep in mind this ban would affect lower tiers too, where I don't think sleep is a big issue as it is here

What is fundamentally different between hypnosis Darkrai and valiant? Darkrai being slower and having a worse type? And "overbearing" and "uncompetitve" are not the same and I think the latter is a better descriptor for sleep. Why are we treating "switch a Mon tou don't care about in vs Amoonguss to get spored, then switch again bc it can't spore again" like a normal interaction

and for the record lower tiers don't matter and should not be (and are not) a factor in tiering OU aka competitive singles, but even if they did, given that PU has banned 3 separate mons due to sleep I'm sure they wouldn't mind

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

while i get your point comparing sleep to magikarp of all things is hilariously bad

as people have been saying, sleep is uncompetitive. we have things like sand veil and brightpowder banned. sleep, on average, gets you as many free turns per game as brightpowder does, possibly more. how is that not uncompetitive? the difference between waking up in 1 turn versus 2 can be game-deciding, let alone 1 turn vs 3.

we ban pokémon that decide games in one turn, even if they're reliant on using player predictions. why not ban something that does the same thing, but without any of the skill?

i'm not comparing sleep to magikarp, i was using an example of something that doesn't add anything to the tier while also being not banworthy and that's the most extreme example of it i can think of. sleep wouldn't fall into either category of examples i used—it adds nothing useful and is uncompetitive, but it should be banned for the latter alone and the former shouldn't be taken into consideration

 

[Kibo]

unban darkrai they said it will be fine they said

 

[pixelpenguin]

I think a ban on certain sleep moves could be a better approach to the sleep problem. Mainly Hypnosis, though sleep powder could be considered as well. Spore has always been incredibly limited in distribution, and both Amoonguss and Breloom as spore users haven't been overwhelming in the past. Similarly, Yawn offers plenty of counterplay.

Hypnosis, and to an extent sleep powder, worsen the sleep issue by introducing accuracy as another factor of RNG. The move either sets you to sleep or it doesn't, and there is no 100% safe way to play around it. If the move hits, your mon is useless and now you face the RNG of waking up. However if this was completely accurate like spore, at least you could play around it and offer sleep fodder. There's no guarantee that your sleep fodder will actually be sleep fodder. Thus your defensive counterplay can never be consistent in a way not seen with other RNG aspects of the game.

I believe banning sleep entirely is too wide of a solution that takes away defensive tools from pokemon that don't abuse them. The most problematic aspects of sleep all result from offensive use of sleep in Hypnosis and Sleep Powder, so I would argue attempting tiering action on those first should be the priority. I'm aware banning moves is complicated due to Smogon policy, but banning sleep as a status condition is a more complex ban than simply banning problematic sleep moves.

 

[NotDaProGamer]

I find it very telling that the best counter argument for sleep ban is "yeah but what about this other completely irrelevant situation" - no analysis about the actual effect sleep has on the meta or how to respond to it from the no action crowd. Because how do you respond to the outcome of a match being determined by a 60% roll, potentially followed by a 33% roll (if it isn't already too late?) why is the counterplay to spore "take advantage of the mod we have implemented?" I've heard "but this will make Amoonguss worse" - WHO CARES? Baton Pass ban made plenty of Pokémon worse, and removing uncompetitve elements from the game has always affected viability. Never mind the fact that ppl in tournament are running AV Amoonguss, stall is running Toxic Amoonguss, Stun Spore is still a great move, and it still has REGENERATOR a super useful type and absorbs knock. The idea that removing sleep would somehow be a huge mistake or destroy the game is ridiculous. Who in their right mind looks at BW and says "you know what the problem with this tier is? I can't use sleep to cheese." Lower tiers don't matter, trying to avoid nerfing random mons doesn't matter, but what does matter is the way 1-3 free turns is certain death against HO and putting this in the hands of a 60% roll is inherently uncompetitve as is the completely insane way we respond to spore - "sleep sack?" We banned 30% ohko moves, how about we ban the one with 60% accuracy and the one with 100% accuracy

Made pretty much this exact post then read above and saw this. Can't be bothered to write a new post since I have exams tomorrow so just linking this. Made pretty much the exact amoonguus argument and yeah.

 

[Cuddly]

Heya everyone, some of the council has had a conversation today about sleep and its effect on the tier this generation. Disclaimer that this post does not necessarily reflect every council member's individual view.

SV OU has had a few sleepers over the course of the generation. To give a quick rundown;

- Amoonguss did what it usually does for a while, and to some extent it still does that. However, as people realised the power of neutralising mons in SV, "lead Amoonguss" was discovered - it'd run Red Card and just lead off, click Spore, and you didn't have much of a choice but to sack something to sleep. Red Card obviously had the side benefit of being great against Booster Energy users.

- There were a few popular Hypnosis Iron Valiant teams at various points in the metagame. It'd turn beating it with any non-Gholdengo check into a slightly weighted coinflip, Games against this thing got ugly really fast, especially because Iron Valiant is so versatile that you didn't necessarily see it coming unless you knew the team, as opposed to Amoonguss.

- Alolan Ninetales, at its peak, was super high in usage, and a lot of its variants ran Hypnosis. Considering it was supporting the incredibly broken Baxcalibur, it's not hard to see why this would become a problem very quickly, and it's not like Ninetales-A does a ton of damage on its own, so it didn't lose much by clicking it. Its bulk and typing also gave it plenty of fishing opportunities.

- Venusaur's new popularity has led to a decent amount of Sleep Powder sheananigans, which is very dangerous considering its threat level. Hisuian Lilligant has been fringe in OU since it dropped but its antics on Sun teams with Sleep Powder are incredibly frustrating to play around. Brute Bonnet was much the same thing. All of these were also incredibly threatening to everything that could hope to absorb Sleep.

- Our newest addition, Darkrai sometimes runs Hypnosis and does silly things with it when it lands. Obviously Darkrai is pretty much built around Sleep as a mechanic given Bad Dreams and all, so it makes sense that it's more popular on this than anything else, but it has served to highlight the unpleasant gamestates Sleep creates.

There's also the elephant in the room that PS's implementation of Sleep Clause Mod is exactly that - a mod. It's not possible to recreate on cartridge; the argument of "just don't click Spore after you put something to sleep" doesn't really hold up, considering the PP limitations which honestly aren't even negligible on Amoonguss.

We're thinking about opening a dialogue on whether or not Sleep Clause Mod should be removed and Sleep moves should just be banned as a whole. There would technically still be ways to put opponents to sleep like Effect Spore and Relic Song, but that's not really the point we're going for here.

---

To address the obvious question of "why not Darkrai?" - we have a few reasons;

a) Darkrai is certainly moving the needle here, but we have seen enough examples of this throughout the generation;
b) Sleep's layers of RNG - between 1 vs 2 vs 3 turn sleeps and whether or not the moves actually hit to begin with - are undesirable regardless of Darkrai's presence;
c) The mod we currently use for sleep is unfaithful to cartridge mechanics, which would *maybe* be okay in exceptional circumstances to keep the game playable (such as the various RBY desync patches on sim), but we do not necessarily feel that this warrants such a mod.

Any and all feedback from here is appreciated. Thanks!

So I’m guessing there are no plans to include Dire Claw here then?

 

[Demon Queen]

Hypnosis and Sleep Powder are definitely pretty cheesy, but what about Yawn? Would it be allowed to stay?
It's obviously not exactly the same, but it feels comparable to how OHKO moves are banned but Perish Song isn't.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Sleep hasn't had a discussion like this for Gens 6-8 and now suddenly because players utilize Hypnosis Darkrai now it becomes a problem? I read through a lot of these posts and it looks like the overbearing factor is Darkrai itself. Clearly Darkrai has to be looked at instead of sleep. Keep in mind this ban would affect lower tiers too, where I don't think sleep is a big issue as it is here

sleep has multiple discussions like this every gen, they're just either not official, not large-scale, or not public. the fact that it's been a point of contention for so long alone is enough to reconsider the clause

 

[ayevon]

The only reasonable solutions are to either A) ban darkrai or B) ban sleep entirely. banning hypnosis and sleep powder don't pass the smell test of reasonable tiering action.

 

[Lily]

So I’m guessing there are no plans to include Dire Claw here then?

Would depend on whether or not this actually goes through. We have not talked about it right now though.

Hypnosis and Sleep Powder are definitely pretty cheesy, but what about Yawn? Would it be allowed to stay?
It's obviously not exactly the same, but it feels comparable to how OHKO moves are banned but Perish Song isn't.

Also something that hasn't been discussed yet. I don't know if it'd be different, but it could be talked about.

The only reasonable solutions are to either A) ban darkrai or B) ban sleep entirely. banning hypnosis and sleep powder don't pass the smell test of reasonable tiering action.

I'm not sure if this is a response to the OP or another post here so apologies if I'm just telling you stuff you already know but this would be a blanket ban on sleep moves, Hypno/Powder were just listed because they're the common examples

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Hypnosis and Sleep Powder are definitely pretty cheesy, but what about Yawn? Would it be allowed to stay?
It's obviously not exactly the same, but it feels comparable to how OHKO moves are banned but Perish Song isn't.

i think yawn should be an exception since it doesn't immediately put you to sleep and can be switched out of, and because in effect it's used far more often as a phazing tool than an actual sleep-inducing move, but if i recall correctly, sleep moves clause as it currently exists (in other metas) also bans yawn. yawn is even specifically mentioned as being banned in bw ou's sleep moves clause