Well, a 50% cut is hardly something to laugh about...if it can get one Dance up it's usually able to do SOMETHING before going down but without Rapid Spin support Volcarona struggles a bit. And with full Toxic Spikes and Spikes on top...it's at less than 25% just by switching in.
-
Check out the relaunch of our general collection, with classic designs and new ones by our very own Pissog!
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
Volcarona
- Thread starter Rising_Dusk
- Start date
Actually, I've been using Volcarona on my gimmick sun team. Even though the team performs godawfully (half due to awful play and half due to awful team), Volcarona is really entertaining to use. I use a set posted here (or was it sunny day thread?) - WoW/Flame Dance/Butterfly Dance/Morning Sun - and it's very successful. While stealth rock serves to effectively neuter it, there is nothing more satisfying than setting up on a -2 lati@s while it switches. Basically, if it gets a BD up and there is no Tar or Terakion to hold it back, it's hurting somthing.
You forgot to mention Heatran as a counter to that set you mentioned. Once your opponent sees you're using that set, they'll probably bring Heatran in to absorb Flame Dance.
I'm wondering if I'm the only person who thinks this moth sucks. Sure, its stats look nice and Butterfly Dance is a dangerous move, but regardless of what I've had on my team, I've been able to take it out easily. When building teams, I don't even have it in mind. Stealth Rock (this move is common, seriously) knocks half, Spikes, being more hyped this gen, adds a little more to that. Then you add Life Orb recoil on offensive sets, plus a priority move, and you get a Pokemon that gets to use his boosts for maybe one turn. I just never did understand the hype surrounding him.
It resists Mach Punch and Bullet Punch, and just like any other deadly sweeper proper support is necessary. A Magic Mirror user and/or a Rapid Spinner are both tools absolutely necessary when using it. Other support options include Toxic Spikes (for Chansey/Blissey), Aromatherapy (it hates paralysis and Toxic), Sun (Morning Sun is a nice tool in the sun; reduces water attacks). Leftovers > Life Orb... I don't see why people run Life Orb. Leftovers recovery (or nullifying inclement weather) is very important to sustain its sweep. Your opponent may have misjudged the pace of the game and set up at the wrong time, or was ill-prepared and needs to improve their team building skills.
Though I primarily play Sun, which should be threatened massively by the moth, I have to agree with you to some extent. If you can get SR up with any reliability it usually won't sweep, which isn't hard - the only place it really poses an issue is in the lead position, to me at least, and then if I predict around it's attacks I can take it out easily. Blaziken pretty much eclipses it as a threat imo, with its auto speed boosts and SD as opposed to a puny defence which if invested in makes it weak enough to be taken care of easily.
Stealth Rock isn't as big a deal as people are saying. Even with half health, after a Butterfly Dance it's going to punch a few holes in your team unless you have a solid counter.
People were to hyped by 4 sr weak. Remember charizard is NU because he is 4x SR weak in conjunction of being sucks. As proven, even 4x SR weak poke in SR dominated gen 4 metagame can be close to BL(Moltres ever get a BL vote remember ?) show how 4x SR weak poke can work if they are good.
Ulgamoth definitely the latter
Ulgamoth definitely the latter
Opponents. It's been like this for every Volcarona I've seen.
The examples I gave however are just the biggest and most obvious hazards to it, that's why I mainly focused on them. But even without them (I've faced plenty without any entry hazards up in the sun), I've just been able to handle them all easily. I've tried using it once on a team for a few games and it never did much for me. I just personally think it sucks.
Realistically, if you let someone get all 6 layers of entry hazards up you're in a lot of trouble, regardless of crippling your Volcarona.
As cool as I think this is, ultimately I have to agree that the typing is just a little too crippling. Heatran walls any Morning Sun variants, there are better ways to take out one maybe two pokemon than the "standard" Butterfly dance set, and like JT swift mentioned Scarf has better options too.
I don't see this ever getting out of BL if it is even in BL. I do see it getting a viable chance of replacing Moltres in UU but good typing is just too important in Standard.
I think "top-tier" is sort of overdoing it...
Note that the only pokemon who has a 4X stealth rock weakness who has made it to OU last gen was ninjask, who I really never saw much of.
typing is an extremely important factor that decides a pokemon's potential. Just because a pokemon is extremely awesome in a certain way doesn't mean that it is automatically a "top tier" pokemon with 4x weakness to SR hindering it.
evidence: yanmega.
Note that the only pokemon who has a 4X stealth rock weakness who has made it to OU last gen was ninjask, who I really never saw much of.
typing is an extremely important factor that decides a pokemon's potential. Just because a pokemon is extremely awesome in a certain way doesn't mean that it is automatically a "top tier" pokemon with 4x weakness to SR hindering it.
evidence: yanmega.
Yanmega didn't have 135 SpAtk and one of the best boosting moves in the game, though.
Exactly. Just having stealth rocks isn't an excuse as a counter for this monster. This bug's fire and bug type STAB is very dangerous in OU when boosted. Little pokemon resist that combo.
Heatran still blocks Volcarona's Fire moves with Flash Fire and 4x resists its Bug moves. Dragonite and Salamence also resist Fire + Bug, but they'll still be taking serious damage from Volcarona's STABs when they're resisted.
- Salamence
- Altaria
- Heatran
- Dragonite
- Chandelure
- Jellicent
- *insert all the Ubers that resist here*
- Gyarados
- Aerodactyl
- Archeops
Just to name a few.
The moth CANNOT get perfect coverage with three moves if it runs both STABs, which is unfortunate :/
Bug/Fire is really cool.
@voodoo pimp: I'm not saying ulgamoth is going to be another yanmega due to SR weakness. I'm just saying its not going to be a TOP TIER pokemon due to its SR weakness.
@ 1. e4 d6: I think kefka sort of produced a list of common pokemon that resists Ulgamoth's stabs... It simply can't win wit ha third move either. Run HP fighting, Dragonite and mence get in the way. Run HP ice, and Heatran gets in the way.
@ 1. e4 d6: I think kefka sort of produced a list of common pokemon that resists Ulgamoth's stabs... It simply can't win wit ha third move either. Run HP fighting, Dragonite and mence get in the way. Run HP ice, and Heatran gets in the way.
I never said prefect, but it is good coverage. Unlike past bug,s you aren't screwed when a steel type is thrown out. And for the few pokemon you miss, thats what your hidden power is for. Hidden power ice looks the best with that handy list you provided. And only then candelure and heatran your biggest counters anyway, blocking it completely. And you could always run hidden power ground. Which was the whole debate here, you need a counter for this thing.
Need is a strong word.
Stealth Rock is pretty easy to set up and even then, he has pretty crappy Defense, so smacking him with a strong Physical move isn't hard.
Btw, HP Ground still leaves you horribly walled by Chandelure, Heatran(You mentioned both, but...), Jellicent, Salamence, and Dragonite.
Best just to run Psychic I guess :/
Psychic is also worth considering, getting neutral coverage on everything except Heatran.
Edit: Accelgor'd.
Edit: Accelgor'd.
I would also like to point out Gyarados, who resists both HP ice AND HP fighting, and also has an offensive advantage on ulgamoth. the only solution would be to run HP electric.
in fact, that might be the best option, hitting everything on that list for at least neutral coverage.
in fact, that might be the best option, hitting everything on that list for at least neutral coverage.
The problem is that neutral Hidden Powers are too weak.
For example, a +6 HP Dragon from Chandelure CANNOT 2HKO Blissey.(That's 1700 Sp.Attack!)