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***[VOTE] Event Moves, Legendary IVs. How "real" do we want it to be?***

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There was overlap in the replies of chaos and Jumpman so I am not responding to everything that was said here, just what is required.

Jumpman said:
If that is the argument you're going with, it begs the question: "hasn't there been 'clear opposition' to Wobbuffet for the last five months?" Since you know the answer to that, and you also know what you've done (or haven't done) in spite of the answer to that, then logically the only answer to your question is "yes, I do".

Or take another case study: Aldaron initially tried to convince me that the egg moves thing was confined to what I initially believed it was. Rather than just accepting that, I posted a discussion topic (which attracted many poor replied unfortunately), but it ultimately turned out that the effects of the glitch were more widespread, so it would have to be a separate game, rather than applied to the main one as Aldaron would have preferred. I actually do care what is posted in these topics.

Jumpman said:
The issue here is that you feel that your forums are, or, at the very least, were representative of the opinion of a large portion of the competitive pokemon battling community.

This is no excuse because both the forum topic and the tournament were thoroughly advertised. It is extremely hard to imagine that all of these skilled players were ignorant of this (and they weren't, since many signed up for the tournament). The reality is they chose not to participate in the topic and discussion, not that they didn't know about it. You are wrong that we did not get any public opinion on this. There was public opinion involved at every step of the way, and a continual bombardment of adverts to encourage people to voice their opinions.

Ignoring what you mean by "we", that's an ad verecundiam argument and you know it. Maybe VIL's a retard...or, to not counter an appeal to authority with an ad hominem, maybe Sub blocking Rapid Spin suited his style or best team very well. Regardless, it is up for discussion for the reason I literally underlined: there's virtually no way that a simulator can get it exactly right and even know that we did without Nintendo releasing a comprehensive list.
Or, again, it's a question of game mechanics. You knew this paragraph didn't really support your argument, why did you include it?
Game mechanics shouldn't be left to preference; they should be as close to the game as we can get it.
Well it looks like we all agree then. The portion of my post which Jumpman quoted was criticising the fact that whether legendary IVs should be restricted is up for vote. Since this is just an issue of game mechanics, it shouldn't be up to preference (as it is in this topic). And if chaos agrees with me here, why are we voting on it?

In fact, Jumpman said above "Max Legendary IVs were banned without any public discussion." and my reply is that since it was just an issue of mechanics, that was not required, and I was apparently criticised for that response, even though we seem to agree.

Jumpman said:
Ok, how do you know that you wouldn't have been welcomed into our inner circle (Inside Scoop) if you demonstrated that you actually wanted to be a part of it? You're as guilty of this as is AA (even if he has much less of a reason to be), so don't even try making us out to be the guilty party.

To be fair, I am in a fairly awkward position here. Especially now that Smogon is going to have its own server, I feel pretty out of place commenting on this stuff, since the only reason I was commenting in the first place is that I hosted the most popular server. But if I am still welcome here then I apologise for not taking the initiative in this regard.
 
Tay said:
I know the plan isn't to legalize the known illegal ones; bold wish bliss was a bad example. But on both Shoddy and NB, non-bold Wish Blisseys with perfect IV's were allowed, even though I'm pretty sure no one has ever seen one in a cartridge game.
People voting on these things really do need to know better. The idea that wish Blisseys were restricted to one nature was a myth propogated by a highly untrustworthy user that has since been cleared up by Gold Ursaring. The funny thing here is that the original myth was that wish Blissey could -not- be bold.
 
Colin, it probably would be useful if you created those topics on Smogon which the majority of the competitive community visits rather than on ShoddyBattle.com which, honestly, I think most people think of as a tech support forum.

The topic you make doesn't have to be completely Shoddy related. You can just make a topic like a normal user proposing possible changes to how Pokemon is played.

I understand Smogon can be a bit intimidating at times, especially with some users' hostile attitude towards the way you and the way Shoddy is run, but avoiding this site isn't going to help. I think taking a larger and more active role here could have been beneficial.
 
The only thing I was responding to is Jumpman's contention that these things had no public consultation. Considering the massive campaign of advertising these venues for public opinion underwent (it is not that easy to ignore regular displays of big red letters), it is a difficult claim to take seriously, especially for Deoxys-S.
 
Voting in favor of cartridge consistent IVs and
In favor of allowing Event Moves for reasons already mentioned.
 
Okay, so we're at the point of personal attacks. That's fine I guess though I really didn't expect that from someone like you. If even you are at this point, I can only conclude that you are speaking for the whole community when addressing me. I suppose this entire post is going to be off topic, but you decided to try to call me out so I figure I had best respond. I ask that you actually read all of this.

I don't like being accused of not caring. That's just not true, and it actually deeply offends me. Does anyone remember my big reputation for making ridiculously long posts? I didn't just make those for fun; I was always doing my best to be thorough and insightful when I did make such posts. The result? People always got upset whenever I said anything controversial (controversial being anything they didn't agree with, because it's evidently offensive to be in disagreement) or just because my post was too long for their tastes. I was always making arguments about one thing or another for sure. Whether it be that Magneton was the second best electric type in RSE or that Dragonite should be OU in RBY because of Wrap or that HP legends in GSC is a stupid rule or that we need to test all of the Pokemon for status in that newfangled DP game or that Wobbuffet isn't broken or whatever, I was definitely always on the minority side. Smogon's community doesn't treat that kindly if you haven't noticed, and if my 1500+ post count is any indication, I really did give it a lot of attempts. You are telling me I'm not really a part of the community, and you may be right. I never really found any friends in the Smogon community. So here I am years later not a part of the community still here in another argument on the hated minority side. Either I must be a really bizarre troll... or maybe I just happen to care.

You are trying to call me out on not using IRC, but think about it for a second. My experience on the forums already makes it abundantly clear that every time I post an opinion I'm going to be drug into a somewhat tiring argument in which the other side is going to probably make either severely flawed arguments that are obviously wrong but they stick to anyway (codes of honor, etc.) and/or (probably and) degenerate into sometimes not so thinly veiled attacks against me personally. This is actually far harder to deal with in real time chats, and in any case, I just generally don't like random chat programs (I also don't use AIM, MSN, etc.). IRC especially has a stigma for me; I left it with a very sour taste in my mouth after RSBot, and in any case, I really question the transparency of such a system. I don't see why using IRC should be mandatory to be a part of this community; is this forum just for giggles?

This leads into why I don't post much any more. It's not because I don't care. Far from it in fact. It's just that I have limits, and I couldn't handle how stressful being an active poster was (due to the nature of the replies I always got). I am still here a whole lot. Every single day I come here and read everything of interest I can find in Inside Scoop, Policy Review, and Stark Mountain (and yes, when everyone else had "given up" on Stark Mountain, I was still reading it). When I do post, it's either something really "safe" that I'm sure won't offend anyone (which is why I spent some substantial time researching ingame mechanics and posting about them here) or something about which I feel strongly enough that I have to post for one reason or another.

You might be wondering why I still bother if I get the feeling that I'm generally just hated and don't belong and why I would actually care if I really feel this way. It really is about the game. All along, the only thing I ever wanted was for Pokemon to be a serious competitive game. When I say serious, I mean that I wanted to see Pokemon listed alongside Street Fighter and other such obvious gems as the top notch in competitive gaming. Smogon, as long as it has been around, has always been my best hope. I tried seeing if I could make a difference just dealing with new people on Gamefaqs; it didn't work. Places like serebii's forums or pokerealm weren't options for reason that should be obvious to all, and everywhere else was just too small of a community. So yeah, I'm here because Smogon is the best competitive community for Pokemon even if it's loaded with anti-competitive people with "codes of honor" etc. Every post I make is always my way of best trying to move Smogon past those problems and into a fully fledged competitive community. Even when I don't do anything, that's just me stuck in the position where I am just sitting back watching and hoping that things will work out and feeling helpless to do anything.

I suppose there's also hope. I always hoped that even if everyone actually posting was against me that maybe, just maybe, I was making a difference with those who were just lurking. I know for a fact that "randoms" (who are really just unestablished members whose opinions are too often devalued) have listened to what I had to say before; maybe in general I was making headway even if the surface signs suggested it was always hopeless. Reading your post about my position in this community, I'm getting a feeling that the surface signs were pretty much right.

You pretty much said the only reason I'm relevant at all is because of my connection to Colin. Try looking at that statement from my perspective for a second. My literal years of time spent in the Pokemon community mean absolutely nothing, and everything I have ever tried to accomplish was meaningless. You're just telling me that really, at the end of the day, all of my attempts to do anything really didn't count for anything, that honestly when people said tl;dr they meant it and didn't read it, and that I'm just generally expendable. These votes themselves are just an attempt to roll back everything I've been trying to accomplish in competitive Pokemon in the past 6 months which is not a short amount of time. It's even worse because it's the first thing I've ever actually accomplished; I finally had something to be proud of, and it's being taken away by this process that's obviously designed to produce the desired results. I guess it doesn't affect the official server true, but ultimately the impact of the official server is pretty small on the game as a whole if the biggest community that everyone looks to for competitive guidance is against it.

Maybe you're ready to go on about how I've been trying to circumvent this community in what has been happening on the Official Server. That's actually really not true as I was always looking at what people on smogon were saying and taking it very seriously, but that aside, I was hoping that maybe changes enacted there might inspire change here. Don't read anything I've been doing as abandoning smogon; I've just been trying to get something of substance to "bring back" and maybe really make things happen. My "alternative" was always to look at the weight of the evidence and to analyze it fairly and objectively. I'm sure I've said this before; that accusation is really off base.

You and probably many others probably think I'm just being difficult and have always just been difficult (VIL actually tried to call me out on that once in the main chat of the official server). That's not true at all. Every single thing I have ever argued I truly did believe, and I have always in every case had nothing but the best intentions. Even now as it's clear to me that my cause is hopeless, I'm still trying against all reason. This may be "just the internet", but seeing years of efforts amount to nothing not only in practical results but in any sort of appreciation is really hurtful. At several points while typing this post, I was literally about to cry. I do care; I care more than you could ever know.

I'm really not scared of the threats to demote me out of even the ability to say anything. I just ask for one thing. Really look at what I've been doing for the years I've been here. Has it really been of absolutely no value? Am I really so poorly esteemed that you are reading the way I act as an apathy toward trying to be a part of the community? If you and everyone else really can't see any value in anything I've done, I suppose there's no sense in delaying the inevitable. I've been grinding my gears for years, and probably without even realizing it, you've managed to bring all of those years to a critical point. I want a clear, unambiguous answer about where I stand, and if that answer really is that I'm nothing, I can make you a solemn promise that I'll never pester you or anyone else here by posting again. I'd really like to hear that it's really not like that, but please do be honest. I have spent too much time already to not have what should be the most simple of clarity. Just know that I actually do care about both Pokemon and smogon and have always been trying the best way I know how to seek the best and that, yes, I was absolutely terrified when I hit the "Submit Reply" button.
 
I'm for the Legendary IV Clause, if it's not possible to get such an IV combination, why should we use it?

I'm for an Event Move blanket ban. Though I don't doubt the majority being legit, if we don't know for certain and if there are nature/IV restrictions then it only seems fair to not allow them. I love using Wish Hypno in UU, and it will most likely change that metagame a lot. But if we don't know enough about it, then I'm perfectly fine with a blanket ban. (Though, I won't exactly be disappointed if Event Moves are allowed either).
 
Okay, the off-topic replies are kind of derailing the thread. If any party feels like the discussion should go on, please make a separate topic or take it to PM.
 
Open to the public.

Note that any vote on "Legendary IVs" is up to my discretion as it involves game mechanics, and we should simulate the game as closely as possible. I am heavily in favor of keeping this clause.
 
I believe that Event moves should be allowed. They are possible to obtain and like Surgo(iirc) stated, Gold Ursaring knows a ton about event pokemon. The only problem we face is determining what combination of IV's are possible for said event pokemon. But that is not enough of a reason to ban the event moves.

I also believe that Ledgends should have their cartridge consistant IV restrictions. If a pokemon is illegal to obtain ingame, why should we allow it on Shoddy, which is trying to emulate the game as much as possible. It's no different than using a Wondertomb, or a missingno. Illegal Pokemon should not be allowed. Period.
 
In favor of the Legendary IV Restriction, as we should simulate the game as closely as possible when it comes to in-game mechanics. This is a different case from "pixels on the HP bar" which is the reason there are not decimals used in the health bars, and other similar situations concerning in-game simulations.

100% in favor of event moves that are known. Look, they're not some asian kids made up story, they were publicly announced and should be allowed for this same reason. However, I would hope that we have sufficient evidence supporting their existence before allowing them, which I'm sure we have.
 
I vote that event moves should be allowed. They are real, they are documented, and they have really found a niche in the metagame, and just suddenly removing them leaves a gaping hole that can't easily be filled.

Voting Ledgends shouldn't have their cartridge consistant IV restrictions. It's needlessly complex for team-building, and all for the sake of Heatran having 17 Attack IVs instead of 31. My main beef is with Hidden Powers. Most of the time it's an irrelevant IV change, and just makes it more difficult and confusing in team-building, and rarely will the IV change have any impact at all. Another bad thing is Hidden Powers, I know there's a list somewhere but not every Shoddy user knows that, and then they have to look it up. It's all rather pointless and frivolous in my opinion.
 
Going with the Legendary IV restriction, because really, a simulator is to (as pointed out before) create almost a replicate of the game. Therefore, it might have a negative effect on team building, but it is a necessary effect to really keep the ingame feel.

I think we should allow Event moves within our knowledge, because if Nintendo did 'make' the events, and it's not some playful child's hoax. Why not allow it? It was their addition to the game and as mentioned in my previous paragraph, a simulator is to create a replicate and therefore the moves should be allowed if obtainable.
 
In favor of Legendary IV restriction, shoddy is supposed to simulate the game...

And I am actually against event moves within our knowledge, with the exception of Wondercard based events (such as TRU Darkrai with Spacial Rend). I know that these moves probably do exist. I honestly think many people are contradicting their own arguments when they say they approve of them for the same reason as restricting Legendary IVs. You want to replicate the game as much as possible. We have NO knowledge of how IVs are generated for events like Wish Blissey. For all we know, Nintendo may never have even released a certain nature of certain events. IIRC, Nintendo just kind of created them and passed them out, unlike Wondercards. Raikou knows a bit about this, she told me she knew a guy at TRU and viewed some of the TRU Mews or something. I'd elaborate a little more but I'm kinda tired, I'll probably have more to say tomorrow...
 
I am for cartridge consistent IVs because, as others have said, it helps keep the simulator as close to the cartridge as possible.

I am also for allowing event moves, so long as we know enough information about it to verify it as true. It also keeps the game interesting, etc.
 
You want to replicate the game as much as possible. We have NO knowledge of how IVs are generated for events like Wish Blissey.
So, wanna ban Celebi, Jirachi, and other legends that we don't know the exact IV generation method of?

It is stretching the argument a bit - but it is quite similar. We have pretty good sources that say that Tickle wynaut and stuff that were handed out in distribution machines are available in any nature - considering NYPC probably ran similar machines, I don't see why any Pokemon available in eggs would be limited in nature/IVs. Hell, you could probably just make a compilation of all the known Egg event Pokemon and check.

Yes, we "assume" but I would be willing to gamble that this assumption is good enough.

Nintendo may never have even released a certain nature of certain events. IIRC, Nintendo just kind of created them and passed them out, unlike Wondercards.
And those "certain events" don't have event moves! What a shocking fact! The egg ones were distributed via a machine that I would assume that is random nature/IV since we don't have any evidence otherwise. "Assume normal, unless there is evidence that there is limitation". Isn't that what we're doing with wondercard events anyway? :P
 
I agree fully with the cartride consistant IV restrictions because Shoddy is supposed to simulate the game as close as it can and there is a lack of a reasonable arguments against them. No, saying they complicate getting the right Hidden Power is not a good argument. No, saying they are hard to remember or pointless or whatever is not a good argument. Just learn how to get the correct Hidden Power, it's not _that_ difficult, and just going through the listing to get the best Hidden Power isn't a waste of time.

I am also for allowing Event moves. It's a case of innocent until proven guilty or guilty until proven innocent as many people have said. I so happen to approve of innocent until proven guilty.
 
In favor of Legendary IV restriction, shoddy is supposed to simulate the game and make it fair, just like the game.

I as well, am against event moves within our knowledge, Wondercard event moves like Alamos Darkrai and Spacial Rend should be allowed because everyone can get their hands on it, either directly or indirectly. Also, Pokemon with sets based around Event Moves that can't be seen in Wi-fi, are dominating the Shoddy Metagame. I feel that we should imitate the cartridge as much as possible to make everything as enjoyable as a regular Wi-fi battle, minus the length of time spent on battles and teams.

Well that's my 2 cents, hope we could make this server the best it can be.
 
I would follow Shoddy's example on this one. To properly simulate cartridge play Pokemon Legendary IV's should be restricted. Also Event moves should be banned unless more information becomes available due to the unsure possible IV's/natures of such Pokemon
 
Allow Event moves, I don't care if we "might be inconsistent" or whatever. We have reliable enough information to suggest that they probably exist, and while that's technically an assumption, we're talking about something that improves the metagame either way (future event moves are nice for freshening the game up, plus you have stuff like Wish Blissey that arguably helps keep the metagame from being too offensive) so it's a reasonable assumption to make.

I don't care about legendary IVs.
 
I am in favor of cartridge consistent Legendary IVs. The goal is to make a simulator that is as close to the cartridge as possible, so therefore any restrictions that apply on the cartridge should apply in simulation.

On that note, I am relatively in favor of allowing event moves as long as they are documented. These moves do exist. It's not some Japanese nerd making a hoax. These events were announced to the public.
 
I am for EVENT MOVES and for cartridge-like IVs. Whatever we do should be based on in-game, and these two options just fit the best in the realm of possible vs impossible.
 
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