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What teams thrive nowadays?
- Thread starter Phadunk
- Start date
Now, if we were to keep this relevant to the discussion, the salamence switching in (which he would have to be doing in order to intimidate) would be 50% or less, so he would certainly be KO'd before having the chance to make even one move?
I was using 50%, but your calculations further prove my point, even if Salamence were taking only stealth rock damage, if he switched in to a scizor bullet punch, he would be 2HKO'd 100% of the time without being able to make 1 move. He would have to not take residual damage, as well as not be a neg spA nature (with flamethrower) or be packing fireblast (and risk a miss) with no ev investment to have a shot at switching in and winning vs scizor. Tons of shit -can not- switch in to scizor, regardless of taking neutral damage or whatever, only a small handful of things and you have to know what's coming for it to be safe.
thats a stupid guideline. It is dead stupid if you switch Salamence into Scizor at all. Salamence doesn't want to risk taking a neutral STAB from Scizor at all, let alone get U-Turned at. Unless SR isn't on the field and Salamence doesn't switch into an attack, then it can switch into Scizor. But that is pretty rare considering SR is almost always down early. Regalstar is right when he states 50% is a huge overstatement with the popularity of steel and water typing in the metagame. If you include usage+amount of OU pokemon, it does not OHKO half of OU pokes.
I like it, the "no you're wrong" argument. You never said I was switching into an attack, you just said it did more than 50% and i proved you wrong...for all we know i could be switching in to revenge kill, or hell, there could be no SR in play. And tons of shit -can- switch into Scizor, you're just disregarding all of the ones we've said for whatever reason. A lot of this metagame is set up to either take on Scizor, or prevent it from having any real effect on the battle.
Sorry this is a little late, but what the hell?
in my experiences in shoddy battles, i find that what most people try to do is start a baton passing chain and give the stat boosts to something that would be embarassing to lose to. or they come in and cripple your pokemon so they can set themselves up for a sweep.
That's the result of "we hate #1" mentality.
It's not a "no you're wrong" arguement, logic would dictate that if you are intimidating scizor, you are switching into it, unless it's a revenge switch in, in which case scizor already killed something. Anything that has equal to or less defense capability of Mence and neutral defensive typing to bullet punch would fair the same or worse, which is alot of things.
looks you are trying to prove that Scizor is dominant because half of OU Pokemon are OHKOed or 2OHKO in "real low" HP(50%) with Salamence as a "guideline." There's looks like little point in the argument, but it seems like it is disturbing some users and me. Bullet Punch is so damn predictable and most Pokemon that take more than 50% will never switch in unless its planning to sacrifice itself. Although this makes Scizor such a good revenge killer late-game or whenever needed like if Salamence is locked in Outrage. Scizor is so successful that it forces the metagame to always prepare for it as SoT stated. Teams in this metagame are so geared up to take on Scizor that many things like Suicune, Gyarados, Zapdos, Empoleon, Jirachi, Metagross, Skarmory, list goes on... that set up on Scizor so damn easily and only take like what 17% from CB Bullet Punch.
What have you seen produce consistent wins with ease?
I would have to say Stall and Bulky offense. This is what I have seen, and I'm pretty sure this is what most of us have seen.
I agree with the above posters, you absolutely don't need Scizor to win. It is absurd to think that you do. Scizor isn't unstoppable, but he is a menace. Even noobs can use him successfully (in a sense). I think Scizor is a solid choice for any offensive team, whether it be bulky offense(the style I prefer) or hyper offense (which I wouldn't recommend).
I would have to say Stall and Bulky offense. This is what I have seen, and I'm pretty sure this is what most of us have seen.
I agree with the above posters, you absolutely don't need Scizor to win. It is absurd to think that you do. Scizor isn't unstoppable, but he is a menace. Even noobs can use him successfully (in a sense). I think Scizor is a solid choice for any offensive team, whether it be bulky offense(the style I prefer) or hyper offense (which I wouldn't recommend).
I hate to be the one to point out SOT's mistake, but since no one else will do it....scizor's bp is actually 90 BP and not 60, so it does closer to ~60%, pretty much a guaranteed ohko after one turn of SR and LO recoil.
(stab 1.5*40)=60*1.5 technician=90 bp.
(stab 1.5*40)=60*1.5 technician=90 bp.
While true that Gyara is a fantastic Scizor switchin. I tend to disagree with a bulky offensive team using Gyarados as their main Scizor counter. Scizor usually enters the game within the first 5 moves (early game) and will be U-turning and even if it does Bullet Punch or whatever it doesn't really amtter. Typically Gyara due to the SR weak will get in one time and DD kill something and die. However due to Scizor coming out early game their Gyarados counters will still be alive and I see newer players basically waste their Gyarados because they can't team build and find a better early game switch in when later in the game when you have worn down their Gyara counters Scizor becomes a liability against your team.
The best way for an offensive team to beat Scizor, really, is to stop it in its tracks. I mean, if you use Jolteon, Gyarados, and Heatran, Scizor really won't be doing much to you.
On a stall team, double-switching becomes vital. If you can get in your Forretress on the enemy Scizor, they've just lost a good bit of momentum and you've just got a free layer of Spikes, which makes it even harder for Scizor to come in and out.
No pokemon can beat Scizor. But with a decently made team and some basic prediction skills, Scizor isn't hard to beat.
I love when the people with authority on smogon use stealth rock in their typical damage calculations(look at the analysis), yet I see some arguing that Stealth Rock won't always be on the field.
Being common enough to need to be minded in a typical scenario and not always there are not mutually exclusive concepts you know.
When you speak of in terms of certainty, I typically derive a sense of something always being constant. You are right about neither of them being true, which is why I find it odd that the same people who use Stealth Rock in their calculations are the same people that are arguing Stealth Rock isn't always present.
What do you mean "in terms of certainty?" In Scizor's analysis, SR is mentioned when it turns 2HKOs into OHKOs, or when it means Salamence will die after LO+SS+SR or something. Also, it's really convenient to include SR damage in calculations because then a player can say "ah, if I use SR I can get these KOs" or allows players to know what KOs they can prevent by spinning away rocks or something.
Of course rocks aren't always present, but who's arguing that it is?
I think, in this platinum generation more so than in Diamond and Pearl, originality, synergy and overall defining strategy are two factors that are really important and often overlooked. I am not talking here about individual pokemon, such as using a Lanturn in OU simply to be 'original', I am more talking about the team as a whole. You cannot simply throw the six most used pokemon in OU, using the first listed set on Strategy Pokedex because the synergy just won't be there and there won't be a strategy for you to execute in a battle. You need to select Pokemon, and indeed, movesets and spreads depending on what your team needs and how it fits in with the team strategy as a whole. For example, when JabbaTheGriffin posted his 'Rotom, CHARGE' team, he used sub charge Rotom, which, at the time, practically no one used, alongside Roserade which is a UU pokemon. However this team worked brilliantly; partly because Jabba is a great battler but also because Roserade and Sub Charge Rotom have great synergy and allowed him to execute a team strategy in order to beat his opponents. I believe these factors are more important than overall 'brokenness' of the pokemon used. Good pokemon are needed, but if the strategy isn't going anywhere then the team won't be very successful.
Actually, Scizor/Salamence/Gyarados teams are everywhere on the ladder, and some permutations of them are quite successful, if a bit derivative. Since they are rather predictable, they do end up losing to heavy stall, which loves a foe that is easy to predict.
Generally, creativity is dying as the metagame becomes more and more optimized. Chenman333's late warstory accentuated this: both he and his opponent (both adroit, above-average players) had painfully bog-standard teams with Scizor, Salamence, and Latias. Bulky offense is the norm now, but things will probably change after Garchomp and pals enter the game after the voting.
Generally, creativity is dying as the metagame becomes more and more optimized. Chenman333's late warstory accentuated this: both he and his opponent (both adroit, above-average players) had painfully bog-standard teams with Scizor, Salamence, and Latias. Bulky offense is the norm now, but things will probably change after Garchomp and pals enter the game after the voting.
Lol. Don't count it. All I'm gonna say.