XY OU Suspect Process, Round 3 - BATON PASS [READ POST #590]

[MikeDawg]

Chillin at ~2600 COIL right now (#first). I'll be voting option 2, for anyone that cares. Bpass is a bitch, even if scoli dies. There's too much opportunity for them to recover with the other mons. Limiting that would destroy full pass.


Edit: got to 2690, then super duper tilt. Dropped from 1600 to 1100 elo LOL

 

[Ajwf]

Tbh I like options 3 and 2. From having used quick pass Scol and having faced that fucking stupid team Web has, I understand that it gets all those boosts off the ground, three per turn max, one passively min. And surviving CB TF is garb holy shit.

To me, Scol himself is going to be an issue if not solved here. That's impressive what he can do, and really my only misplay was one I thought was absolutely solid, going for Brave bird against +2 Scol... Apparently, I should've Uturned into Keldeo to stop that, but seriously... who suspects a scoli to survive a CB TF?

 

[Arcanine is Regal]

I am approaching reqs myself, and would like to discuss why i will be choosing option 3. While I think passing speed boosts is perfectly ok the fact that scolipede can switch into any physical threat and set up an easy +2def and speed and then pass, is too strong. I think the only way to truly purge BP from the OU metagame is to get rid of the 2 pokes that are the biggest problem and that is espeon and scolipede, with these two gone it will take alot more skill to avoid roar/WW, and will just be a more definite kill to baton pass.

I also have a question, lets say 40% of people voted for option 1, while 30% each voted for 2 and 30% for 3, would that mean nothing gets changed? If so I will definitely just pick the more sure way to nerf BP

 

[jbtc10]

So in other words, since most people are going to be voting to nerf Baton Pass in some way, if you actually don't want Baton Pass to be nerfed, you should vote for option #2 because it does the least damage to the concept of Baton Passing in general, and voting for #1 is pretty much guaranteed to be a waste of a vote.

 

[iohan]

Option 2 seems the smartest. I used to do alot of baton pass in the past and I know that to sweep with baton pass, and I had a lot of success with shedninja and a few other parteners with nasty plot, light screen/reflect and cosmic power/stockpile in gen 5. With lucario, dragonite and even charizard, I swept hard. But More than half of my team had to baton pass.
That's why I think option 2 is the best. After all, you need 4 or more pokemon with baton pass to BP-sweep.

 

[Ninja Charizard]

So in other words, since most people are going to be voting to nerf Baton Pass in some way, if you actually don't want Baton Pass to be nerfed, you should vote for option #2 because it does the least damage to the concept of Baton Passing in general, and voting for #1 is pretty much guaranteed to be a waste of a vote.

I really doubt 3 will win, from the way this thread is going. If you are against banning bp, you should just vote 1.

 

[megacrazyhand]

From what I'm seeing on the ladder (as well as experiences I've had in the past) option two is probably the best option. My reasons over all being that full baton pass (after less then ten turns) can stack enough boosts to solo most teams- especially with Scolipede getting up a sub, two speed boost and a swords dance/iron defence in a grand total of two turns guaranteeing that the receiver will either be fast and bulky or fast and hitting like a truck while being possibly behind a sub. Ultimately, I've seen a lot of games with and against full baton pass teams come down to sheer luck of crits (unfortunately, prankster taunt doesn't work out against magic bounce espeon and fast taunt is less effective against a speed boosted mon which can out speed the next turn and likely hit hard). As a result, the baton pass team often has ensure that they don't lose a member in one of those turns, which isn't too difficult as you stack up boosts.

That said baton pass as a move isn't broken, its certainly fun to put Scolipede on a team with Manaphy and pass a boost or two to the Manaphy and watch the world crumble. I've even seen the strategy fail quite often, which gives it a lot of unpredictability when playing it. As such, I'm a proponent of choice two because it nerfs the aspect that I think is most broken to the metagame while not actually removing a move that isn't broken in and of it self.

 

[Eievui-Nymphia]

I used a Baton Pass team in the suspect ladder and I can't climb it. The reason is that I found a lot of teams who had ways to disrupt Baton Pass chains and even though I tried to restart the chain itself, it's not easy to do.

The team that I'm using are
Scolipede @ Mental Herb
248 HP 8 SpD 252 Spe
Aility: Speed Boost Nature: Timid (+Spe, -SpA)
-Protect
-Iron Defense
-Substitute
-Baton Pass

Espeon @ Leftovers
248 HP 252 Def 8 Spe
Ability: magic Bounce Nature: Bold (+Def-, -Atk)
-Calm Mind
-Stored Power
-Substitute
-Baton Pass

Sylveon @ Leftovers
252 HP 184 Def 72 SpA
Ability Pixilate Nature: Bold
-Calm Mind
-Hyper Voice
-Wish
-Baton Pass

Zapdos @ Leftovers
252 HP 100 SpA 156 SpD
Ability: Pressure Nature: Calm
-Thunderbolt
-Roost
-Defog
-Baton Pass

Mew @ Leftovers
252 HP 4 Def 252 SpD
Ability: Synchronoize Nature: Calm
-Roost
-Barrier
-Substitute
-Baton Pass

Maybe I'm doing a lot ofmispredictions, but if I don't know correctly, my BP team is damaged.

 

[Anty]

I used a Baton Pass team in the suspect ladder and I can't climb it. The reason is that I found a lot of teams who had ways to disrupt Baton Pass chains and even though I tried to restart the chain itself, it's not easy to do.

The team that I'm using are
Scolipede @ Mental Herb
248 HP 8 SpD 252 Spe
Aility: Speed Boost Nature: Timid (+Spe, -SpA)
-Protect
-Iron Defense
-Substitute
-Baton Pass

Espeon @ Leftovers
248 HP 252 Def 8 Spe
Ability: magic Bounce Nature: Bold (+Def-, -Atk)
-Calm Mind
-Stored Power
-Substitute
-Baton Pass

Sylveon @ Leftovers
252 HP 184 Def 72 SpA
Ability Pixilate Nature: Bold
-Calm Mind
-Hyper Voice
-Wish
-Baton Pass

Zapdos @ Leftovers
252 HP 100 SpA 156 SpD
Ability: Pressure Nature: Calm
-Thunderbolt
-Roost
-Defog
-Baton Pass

Mew @ Leftovers
252 HP 4 Def 252 SpD
Ability: Synchronoize Nature: Calm
-Roost
-Barrier
-Substitute
-Baton Pass

Maybe I'm doing a lot ofmispredictions, but if I don't know correctly, my BP team is damaged.

I know that it is nice to be creative by putting mew in, but it is definately not worth over vaporeon, who a. wish passes, b. adds a vital fire resist, so you dont get rekt by talonflame who laughs at scolipede lead. I dont see any reason not to use denis's team because he/she built it after a lot games and has peaked 1. Other than the standard 6 (or zapdos) there isnt much else important.

Most people are eluding to option 2 as it is the most sensible mon. I was using scoli quick pass before this and it is very helpful for fixing megachomp/cross 's low speed or even getting a sd up. i highly doubt it can still be broken with 3, but why not make it two or even 1. Just in case 3 mons with bp are still broken and quick pass only takes 1, not many people will use espy and scoli (the only two viable bp sets outside of chains).

People are saying that this could be prevented not mentioning the whole thing. A. denis's rmt told the world, b. its still broken, like in bw, not many people used it, but it was still broken.

 

[Eievui-Nymphia]

The Option 3 is:

1. Ban the combination of the move Baton Pass in conjunction with the ability Magic Bounce and the ability Speed Boost (complex ban).

I think that this option should be rewritten in this way with those two rules:
- Ban The combination of BOTH the ability Speed Boost and the move Baton Pass AND the ability Magic Bounce or the item Absolite and the move Baton Pass in the same team (complex ban).

Or
-Ban the combination of BOTH Espeon and Scolipede or Absol with Absolite + Scolipede with BOTH having Baton Pass in the same team (complex ban).

It's clear that without Scolipede and Espeon BP is barely viable, and even with Espeon BP are completely manageable.

Although it's being clear that Baton pass requires a lot of prediction. Mybe with Deoxys-D you can easily switch to Espeon (Espeon is a counter of all Deoxys-D) butthere are other SR setter that Espeon can't switch.

By my experiences, I think that maybe BP teams are uncompetitive but not broken given the amount of prediction that it requires in the first turns of the match.

 

[ShadowMarioGalaxy64]

Just now posting in this thread after glancing over some things (late to the party again, I guess), but I want to try to shed a little light on another end that might be glanced over sometimes.

When building a full Baton Pass team, there is typically an already "good" Pokemon on the receiving end of the chain, typically something like Kyurem-B or Mega Mawile that need a little help in one stat or another. I...once had a Baton Pass Chain team for "teh lulz" and found that I could easily win without knowing much about the team itself. Just know "use x when y" and "go to this guy when z". This team utilized Espeon, Mega Scizor, Gorebyss, Gliscor, and Smeargle as the Baton Passers. The monster that would receive these boosts?

Rampardos.

It then proceeded to annihilate Thundurus, Landorus-T, and Keldeo with ease before the opponent forfeit. Replay: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-95094767

Yes, Rampardos was the one using the boosts to destroy the team. Rampardos. A Pokemon forever doomed in the lower tiers, never thought to come up.

Knowing some of the other users of Baton Pass, particularly Scoliopede and Mega Mawile, I want to use the judgment I had with this team and the different possibilities.

1. Do Nothing

Right...not going to happen.

2. Limit Baton Pass to three Pokemon per team.

This seems like it would be a relatively fair option at first. You can only have three with it? Sure--that's fine. We then run into a different problem: Scoliopede, Espeon, Baton Pass FILLER (could be Mega Scizor, Gorebyss, Gliscor, etc.), Ditto/Recipient/Support, Ditto/Recipient/Support, Ditto/Recipient/Support. It turns into another Gen IV Garchomp ordeal where teams dedicated to Baton Pass teams would be running the same things in order to crush the opponent somehow. This opens up new ways to use the team and new ways support a smaller chain of Baton Pass that will limit itself to, typically, Speed, Attack, and Screens (which is scary enough on its own right considering that it's really all you need). Is it easier to deal with? Somewhat, but it's still an issue when you have up to THREE recipients for the Baton Pass team that could potentially wreck instead of only worrying about one--a double-edged sword, if you will.

3. Ban Baton Pass in conjunction with Speed Boost and Magic Bounce.

Once again, it sounds impressive on paper. This would remove the threat of Espeon and Scoliopede almost entirely by disallowing them to boost their allies. On the other hand, though, this would only bring up other threats to the table. Venomoth would rise up to the challenge of its rivals as a Quiver Dance Passer, Vaporeon would patch up with Acid Armor, massive Substitutes, and Wish, Togekiss would cripple the opponent with Thunder Wave and pass a boost to an ally, Celebi is Celebi, and Zapdos received Baton Pass as a Gen III Event Move and can pull a job similar to Togekiss. It would merely mean that more and more Pokemon would be used in order to cover the holes that would be made. It's the slightly more effective approach in my eyes, however.

Final Verdict:

I'd personally go with option 3 and Ban Baton Pass when combined with either Speed Boost and Magic Bounce, but I'd first have to work up the ladder to get a spot. That's just my input, though.

 

[TM13IceBeam]

If you're using Mew for Baton Pass you shouldn't use Barrier, you should be using Amnesia. Your only other option for that is roflgorebyss, which means Mew is much better suited for this niche. For defense passing you already have solid options in Scolipede and Vaporeon anyway...

 

[Lil YoshiXD]

One thing I'm noticing a lot on ladder is baton pass teams and anti-baton pass teams. Really amusing is when I use baton pass, they run an anti-baton pass team and say it should be banned at start of match, then when they proceed to beat me they say baton pass sucks.

 

[skies]

Ok, well, here's my input. I've been playing around with dEnIsSsS ' Baton Pass team, which is arguably one of the most effective Baton Pass teams, and I have not been enjoying it very much. I've played around 30 matches and I've only won like 10 of those, i've noticed how much people are counter-teaming Baton Pass teams lately, I've seen things like Roar Mega Garchomp, Circle Throw Exploud (thanks MikeDawg), and even obscurer shit like Taunt Chesnaught which threw me off guard, but nonetheless, the biggest counter I've found is Thundurus. Thundurus easily plays mind games and they usually lead when they see a baton pass team and it plays games with Scolipede first. They probably know that it has Mental Herb, so they Thunderbolt, but the second you're done boosting / simply cannot anymore, they Thunderbolt more, then when you switch to something else, Taunt immediately. This is a really tough battle, but, I can sometime overcome it if I can get into Zapdos safely, which can 2HKO with Thunderbolt, or flat out OHKO with Charge-boosted Thunderbolt. I may not be too good at Baton Pass, but I'm trying, and I much prefer using normal teams and more accepted playstyles like hyperoffense. But, yeah, if I get to 2700 COIL I'm definitely going to vote for #2 because they're a bitch to face and a bitch if you let them set up u.u.

 

[Rhaegar]

Just now posting in this thread after glancing over some things (late to the party again, I guess), but I want to try to shed a little light on another end that might be glanced over sometimes.

When building a full Baton Pass team, there is typically an already "good" Pokemon on the receiving end of the chain, typically something like Kyurem-B or Mega Mawile that need a little help in one stat or another. I...once had a Baton Pass Chain team for "teh lulz" and found that I could easily win without knowing much about the team itself. Just know "use x when y" and "go to this guy when z". This team utilized Espeon, Mega Scizor, Gorebyss, Gliscor, and Smeargle as the Baton Passers. The monster that would receive these boosts?

Rampardos.

It then proceeded to annihilate Thundurus, Landorus-T, and Keldeo with ease before the opponent forfeit. Replay: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-95094767

Yes, Rampardos was the one using the boosts to destroy the team. Rampardos. A Pokemon forever doomed in the lower tiers, never thought to come up.

Knowing some of the other users of Baton Pass, particularly Scoliopede and Mega Mawile, I want to use the judgment I had with this team and the different possibilities.

1. Do Nothing

Right...not going to happen.

2. Limit Baton Pass to three Pokemon per team.

This seems like it would be a relatively fair option at first. You can only have three with it? Sure--that's fine. We then run into a different problem: Scoliopede, Espeon, Baton Pass FILLER (could be Mega Scizor, Gorebyss, Gliscor, etc.), Ditto/Recipient/Support, Ditto/Recipient/Support, Ditto/Recipient/Support. It turns into another Gen IV Garchomp ordeal where teams dedicated to Baton Pass teams would be running the same things in order to crush the opponent somehow. This opens up new ways to use the team and new ways support a smaller chain of Baton Pass that will limit itself to, typically, Speed, Attack, and Screens (which is scary enough on its own right considering that it's really all you need). Is it easier to deal with? Somewhat, but it's still an issue when you have up to THREE recipients for the Baton Pass team that could potentially wreck instead of only worrying about one--a double-edged sword, if you will.

3. Ban Baton Pass in conjunction with Speed Boost and Magic Bounce.

Once again, it sounds impressive on paper. This would remove the threat of Espeon and Scoliopede almost entirely by disallowing them to boost their allies. On the other hand, though, this would only bring up other threats to the table. Venomoth would rise up to the challenge of its rivals as a Quiver Dance Passer, Vaporeon would patch up with Acid Armor, massive Substitutes, and Wish, Togekiss would cripple the opponent with Thunder Wave and pass a boost to an ally, Celebi is Celebi, and Zapdos received Baton Pass as a Gen III Event Move and can pull a job similar to Togekiss. It would merely mean that more and more Pokemon would be used in order to cover the holes that would be made. It's the slightly more effective approach in my eyes, however.

Final Verdict:

I'd personally go with option 3 and Ban Baton Pass when combined with either Speed Boost and Magic Bounce, but I'd first have to work up the ladder to get a spot. That's just my input, though.

Offensive passing is not broken. Just because someone used it and won doesn't make it broken. Of course having +N boosts to speed and attacks turn nearly any pokemon into a monster capable of sweeping entire teams. Rampardos is actually a great option since it's lack of speed is the main thing that holds it back.
The team in the replay is very easily beaten since it runs a lot of risk. The main issue here are the defensive chains which have very few things that can deal with them and run no risk other than the possibility of getting hit by a crit which doesn't matter once a Sub is up and more oft than not doesn't beat them because the mons are bulky and up against attackers they fare well against so can usually live a crit anyway.

 

[ShadowMarioGalaxy64]

The main issue here are the defensive chains which have very few things that can deal with them and run no risk other than the possibility of getting hit by a crit which doesn't matter once a Sub is up and more oft than not doesn't beat them because the mons are bulky and up against attackers they fare well against so can usually live a crit anyway.

I still think that bringing up the potential with Offensive Chains as well as Defensive Chains is still note worthy in the sense that it can also lead to a "close-to-a win condition" situation of sorts. Defensive Chains are irritating as well, sure, but Offensive Chains are still...there. They exist, so in my eyes, it's worth giving a glance to some degree--definitely not as much as the Defensive Chain, but it's still important to know all of the aspects. After all, knowing everything about a situation before completely tackling it is important (even if I break my own rule sometimes). As the main post says, we're here to talk about Full Baton Pass Teams, in both their Offensive and Defensive forme.

Now I want to tackle the weaknesses of each chain for comparison. I'll keep it short, as Defensive Chains have the obvious advantage, but like above: all aspects. If people have more input on this, all to them. Add on.

Offensive Chain Weaknesses:

The most Defensive of Pokemon can typically keep some threats at bay unless THAT many boosts are gained. Prankster Taunt, as long as Espeon and Mega Absol are out of the question, can ease the pain some. Foul Play can also deter Physical Boosts somewhat, as can Will-O-Wisp given the right timing. Offensive Chains will, at some capacity, have one or two Defensive Passers so that the bulk of their end (and throughout) will be able to withstand the punishment of their opponent, but only the most Defensive (and ONLY up to a point).

Defensive Chain Weaknesses:

Outside of Auto-Crit Pokemon, Prankster Taunt, and the very rarely-used Seismic Toss and Night Shade, there's almost no defense against them, especially with Espeon and Mega Absol. Using Roar+Entry Hazard damage is something reserved for Heatran--even then, it's stopped by Magic Bounce. Any moves that would counter the strategy, be it Haze, Topsy-Turvy, etc., are so niche that it's almost not worth bringing up. Much like Swagger and its haxish entirety, a well made Defensive Chain Team can create an uncompetitive MATCH based upon luck. We've had matches that have turned with one stroke of luck towards the end, be it Flinch or a Crit, or matches that you get the upper hand because of luck, but after (and even during) setup, that luck better be on your side because it's the only way you're going to win without resorting to a last niche effort--hey, I made a pun!

Call me insane if you will (I've been called worse), but I believe it to be worth bringing up.

 

[jc104]

Is this going to be a simple vote where everyone picks only one option, or will voters be asked to rank the options? I've noticed people talking about tactical voting in the thread already. Hope I don't need to explain why that's a bad thing!

It seems to me that both of the two options would pretty much remove baton pass teams as a serious force. So ultimately, it comes down to the effect outside of baton pass teams. Option 2 seems clearly the better option if we are looking to minimize this impact.

 

[WebBowser]

Edit: got to 2690, then super duper tilt. Dropped from 1600 to 1100 elo LOL

I know that feel man, I know that feel. The amount of BP counter-teaming is pretty ridiculous, I gotta admit. It feels like there are more anti-BP teams then there are BP teams. That being said, despite the amount of BP counterteaming, all scoli needs is one safe opportunity to grab that +2 defense. If he has a teammate that can safely recieve that boost, the opponent may as well forfeit at that point, as it's GG from there. Excadrill and Togekiss in particular love that speed and defense pass. Togekiss has good natural special bulk and at +2 defense is nigh invincible. Being nigh invincible has a lot of perks, such as being able to setup one or two NPs with no fear and then OHKO the entire tier. Excadrill is less bulky on the special side, but is immune to thunder wave and is the closest thing to a thundy counter you're ever going to get. With speed and defense, he can easily setup a SD in front of any physical threat, SE STAB or otherwise, and proceed to wreck face in a manner reminiscent of sand rush Excadrill from gen 5.

The fact that Scolipede can function even in an environment like this one should be a testament to his brokenness.

 

[Andrew]

i really really hate that i forgot to save this replay y'all/you guys...so Im running Sand Offense with support T-Tar/sand rush Exca/keldeo/lando-I/Mega Gyarados and Latios. I mean come on for fucks sake I have even Taunt on my Mega Gyarados, but u know that they will switch to that sweet sylveon to take ur taunt and retaliate with 2hko Hyper voice. However I even have Calm mind Lando for starters...annnnd Sand rush Exca to outspeed if scoli dont get enough boosts for sylveon/vap. Well u know how it goes, i taunt, sylveon comes in, i switch, he just accumulates more boosts i seriously thought i was going to loose except somehow i disrupt his chain and get a kill with sand rush exca...he starts over blahblahblah gets defense and speed w/ scoli...he almost had me then i am able to get a free turn to bring in T-Tar for sand, his sylveon has +2 spd/+3 def and sand rush exca comes in and iron heads that bish. well then the match was over. But fuck, it was an irritating game to play, not to mention the server was lagging so each move took like 1 whole minute to make. I would really like to be able to have ice fang on my mega gyara again ;~;

ok, here's a replay, i mean wtf is this shit
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-124613360
i honestly dunno if id vote for 2 or 3 now....

also
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. +2 252 HP / 252 SpD Espeon: 113-134 (33.8 - 40.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO,

 

[Salt]

I'm gonna pop in and give my two cents for now since I've done a few games using Baton Pass. Full Baton Pass is just really fucking dumb. Yeah, I know I'm not the first person to say it, but it's true. I'm not usually an asshole on PS, but I've been called a (BAN ME PLEASE) or other obscenities in every game I've played so far. Using Baton Pass gives the opponent very little room for error. In one game (sorry I don't have the replay) I fucked up my chain twice, let a Mega Charizard X get three Dragon Dances, and still won. You know why? He made one small misplay which let me Acid Armor with Vaporeon. Then I was able to Roar the Zard out, get the chain going again, and win. It's ridiculous. No other team type is able to fuck up so royally to let Mega Charizard X get three fucking Dragon Dances and not lose. If I get reqs (I probably won't) I'm definitely going for option #2 to nerf this playstyle as much as possible.

 

[Lil YoshiXD]

No other team type is able to fuck up so royally to let Mega Charizard X get three fucking Dragon Dances and not lose.

Hyper offense has priority
Stall has Quagsire
Also there is sturdy whirlwind skarmory

Also boosted threats are trouble in general, but most teams should be able to play around them.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

I was far on the side of Option#2 at first. But after seeing some of the teams some people have put together, I've realized, that three members doesn't quite nerf it as much as I'd like to think. Yes, it makes it a bit more manageable, but only a bit. I think if Option 3 were to be "Baton Pass + Speed Boost + Magic Bounce" were to be the ban, I'd be all for it.

Regardless, something needs to be done.

Hyper offense has priority
Stall has Quagsire
Also there is sturdy whirlwind skarmory

Also boosted threats are trouble in general, but most teams should be able to play around them.

There's a difference between Pinsir setting up, and a perfectly put together team of six acting as one.

 

[WebBowser]

i really really hate that i forgot to save this replay y'all/you guys...so Im running Sand Offense with support T-Tar/sand rush Exca/keldeo/lando-I/Mega Gyarados and Latios. I mean come on for fucks sake I have even Taunt on my Mega Gyarados, but u know that they will switch to that sweet sylveon to take ur taunt and retaliate with 2hko Hyper voice. However I even have Calm mind Lando for starters...annnnd Sand rush Exca to outspeed if scoli dont get enough boosts for sylveon/vap. Well u know how it goes, i taunt, sylveon comes in, i switch, he just accumulates more boosts i seriously thought i was going to loose except somehow i disrupt his chain and get a kill with sand rush exca...he starts over blahblahblah gets defense and speed w/ scoli...he almost had me then i am able to get a free turn to bring in T-Tar for sand, his sylveon has +2 spd/+3 def and sand rush exca comes in and iron heads that bish. well then the match was over. But fuck, it was an irritating game to play, not to mention the server was lagging so each move took like 1 whole minute to make. I would really like to be able to have ice fang on my mega gyara again ;~;

ok, here's a replay, i mean wtf is this shit
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-124613360
i honestly dunno if id vote for 2 or 3 now....

also
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. +2 252 HP / 252 SpD Espeon: 113-134 (33.8 - 40.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO,

Just to add onto that point, had I used morning sun in front of his scizor like I should have (lets face it, scizor was doing nothing to me), I could have easily tanked the draco meteor and carried on my way. I misplayed badly and it cost me the game, again.

Ugh, why am I the only player hell bent on proving scolipede is op? I feel like if a more competent player built a team around iron defense scoli, knowing what it's capable of, he could wreck far harder then I can.

 

[Reflect Suicune]

Option 3 is not very well explained. So with that option, I cannot use Espeon and a Baton Passer on the same team at all?

If so, I think it should be changed to "A pokemon cannot have both Magic Bounce and Baton Pass"

Otherwise in addition to nerfing BP teams. you're also nerfing teams that use Espeon defensively, such as to counter SR or other stuff, and teams that use Baton Pass defensively, as a pseudo-U-Turn. This is unnecessary collateral damage.

This is a terrible option if I am understanding it correctly.

 

[Lil YoshiXD]

There's a difference between Pinsir setting up, and a perfectly put together team of six acting as one.

To be fair Mega Pinsir only has maybe 5 or so viable counters (Similar to baton pass counters) A few checks (also similar to baton pass), Yet no1 is asking for it to be banned.
Also all well put together teams should be acting as one.

I simply don't find baton pass as unhealthy or broken as some of the other things banned. 2 ppl got high on the ladder with it (not that great imo), by now people should know to prepare against it. Baton pass isn't nearly as luck reliant as swag play, ohko moves, or evasion moves. Also it isn't nearly as dominant as MegaLucario or MegaKang. Some people are making to be a nearly unstoppable play style, but it really isn't people just need to prepare against it. The suspect ladder has shown so far that if well prepared for, Baton Pass can be beaten pretty easily. I don't just mean weird things like Circle Throw Exploud. CM Lando, CM Gardevoir, Mega Pinsir, etc... all work well. I just really think we shouldn't be banning things unless we have to.