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Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V2) (Last update on post #5189)

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TheWyvernKing said:
I feel like stored power is a good choice for the last slot considering it's one of the only ways clefable can get past heatran without using hp ground and it also helps with many other defensive behemoths like venusaur.
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+6 4 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 67-79 (17.3 - 20.4%)
In return 4 SpA Heatran Lava Plume vs. +6 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable: 22-27 (5.5 - 6.8%) not counting for SPA drops

It may take a while, but heatran eventually dies. also this is w/o life orb which clefable commonly uses.
 
escarlata said:
Tell that to Thundurus-I, whose most best set runs Thunder Wave for the pure sake of preventing sweeps as well as making itself harder to revenge. And no, Thundurus does not completely outclass Sharpedo in that role because in order to stop sweeps, it has to risk the target bypassing paralysis.



You can practically make the prediction argument on both sides. Sharpedo has the freedom to switch moves so not like as if it has to predict much. Just hit whatever is in front of you with whatever is ideal. Mixed sets with Ice Beam shits on Dragons that try to switch on it. You are seriously underestimating the power of 120 atk with an adamant nature backed with a life orb. For starters, Adamant Waterfall from Sharpedo hurts more than Jolly Garchomp's Dragon Claw. Heck it can even run a set with Hydro Pump, Dark Pulse, Ice Beam to lure in physical walls. 95 SAtk isn't terrible by any means given a Modest nature which it can afford to run. It hits harder than Greninja for one, and like Greninja, many hyper offense team also struggle with Sharpedo after their priority users are removed.

Being the fastest Destiny Bond user means if it cannot accomplish a late game sweep, it usually doesn't go down alone. They can set up all they want, but you still don't lose out in speed often due to speed boost. Destiny Bond + Speed Boost + bad bulk is basically a 'super sucker punch'. Destiny Bond is a big part of why it is less dead weight against most team, and makes it more reliable than most C+ ranked mons. So dropping Sharpedo means practically everything in C+ has to drop too since something that is actually better than them dropped.
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To be honest, a much better comparison for Sharpedo is Deoxys-S's Life Orb set. Sharpedo isn't meant to be a sweeper. It's got terrible coverage and lacks the power to break through any walls whatsoever, and is easily hard walled by Pokemon such as Ferrothorn, M-Venu, or even Chansey. Sweeping isn't what makes Sharpedo at all viable in OU; rather it's the way that it can act as a "scarfer without a scarf" enabling it to switch moves, preventing it from being locked in and set up fodder against a number of Pokemon.

However, Sharpedo is not without its flaws. While it hits harder than Deo-S, it faces much worse type coverage, incredible frailty, and the unfortunate reliance on Protect to outspeed things, allowing sweepers to turn things into a prediction war and attempt to set up alongside a predicted protect to outspeed the next turn. Destiny bond is a plus, but it puts Sharpedo's utility in the hands of prediction, something which serious ladders want to avoid. Sharpedo has some notable niches, but on the whole finds itself outclassed by other "scarfers" (which it essentially is- at least, that's the role it's playing) and other similar Pokemon like Life Orb Deoxys-S.

Also just a note about logistics- "Pokemon X is better than everything in this tier, so it should move up" or similar arguments defeat the purpose of our discussion. The point is to rank pokemon against definitions of tiering based on their own merits and niche in the OU metagame, in order to find their relative viability. An argument like the one above basically circumvents the entire point of the tiering process.
 
As much as I hate clefable, it's really good. It's all rounded stats allow it to run a multitude of set that take advantages of pokemon that can break though Clefable as set-up fodder. However it's immediate power is pretty weak, especially without a life orb. It's also can't invest in all Evs, making it choose whether to wall special or physical attackers.
 
Lil YoshiXD said:
+6 4 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 67-79 (17.3 - 20.4%)
In return 4 SpA Heatran Lava Plume vs. +6 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable: 22-27 (5.5 - 6.8%) not counting for SPA drops

It may take a while, but heatran eventually dies. also this is w/o life orb which clefable commonly uses.
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Defensive Heatran can just phaze it out.
 
SomeDrunkRockLee said:
Also just a note about logistics- "Pokemon X is better than everything in this tier, so it should move up" or similar arguments defeat the purpose of our discussion. The point is to rank pokemon against definitions of tiering based on their own merits and niche in the OU metagame, in order to find their relative viability. An argument like the one above basically circumvents the entire point of the tiering process.
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If you followed the entire convo back, I never mentioned it should move up, just mentioning it should not drop from what it currently is in.
 
M-Venu anticipates Clefable as last pokemon, comes in with sludge bomb and destroys it... :/ it still has weaknesses.

Not to mention M-venu can have sleep powder. If you're relying on sweeping when all your pokemon are gone, your opponent can just laugh and bring in the most common stall poke, correct? To be honest, this "Magic Guard GG stall" bullshit is overrated.
 
Ajwf said:
M-Venu anticipates Clefable as last pokemon, comes in with sludge bomb and destroys it... :/ it still has weaknesses.

Not to mention M-venu can have sleep powder. If you're relying on sweeping when all your pokemon are gone, your opponent can just laugh and bring in the most common stall poke, correct? To be honest, this "Magic Guard GG stall" bullshit is overrated.
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By that same token, they'll wait until Mega Venu is dead. Then it's "Magic Guard GG stall".

Learn to logic.
 
Karxrida said:
By that same token, they'll wait until Mega Venu is dead. Then it's "Magic Guard GG stall".

Learn to logic.
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By that, though, you're suggesting the player would be good enough to remove mega venusaur first... Can I ask you A.) Why you need MG Clef if you're able to do that consistently and B.) How is it GG stall when the most major component of most stall teams is being removed for this example?

Yeah. M-Venu isn't easy to kill. You're probably using a trapper if someone recognizes this little strat of MG Clef in reserve, which isn't terrifically hard to see. So you run Goth (the only trapper able to take M-Venu with any consistency) AND MG Clefable for stall. At least, to secure this because otherwise I argue that brains exist. You're also relying on Aegi not being the last pokemon in the 5 man core, the possibility you could be running into an abstract (Edit: This should be "Other" stall, aka any not standard. Just me not reading my posts) stall team or even haze quagsire laughing at you. I just don't see the end all right here. Just run Goth or something.
 
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Magic Guard Clefable is far from being one of the best Pokémon to beat stall with, it has been used for that purpose for a long time and though that wouldn't happen if it didn't have some very useful tools at its disposal, it won't overcome any stall team made by an experienced player.

Firstly, even at +6 it fails to 2HKO Chansey (and Unaware Quagsire/Clefable), so between them they can stall it for 32 turns+ with the combined recovery of Soft-Boiled and Recover (with Wish the stalling is even easier), and Quagsire can come in when it likes to remove the boosts with Haze if another team member is better placed to defeat it. Amoonguss can remove its boosts easily with Clear Smog and waste its attacks' PP by switching out for Regenerator recovery. Any Pokémon with a fast Encore will cripple it, as will any Pokémon with Trick (Trick Gothitelle is finding its way onto a lot of stall teams). Switching into it with a fast, bulky Taunt user also completely shuts it down - Mew, Heatran and others can do this very well. Unaware CM Clefable beats its Magic Guard counterpart every time. All of this goes without mentioning the fact that many stall teams do have a Pokémon on them with the power to muscle through Clefable before it can boost too highly.

Smog Frog said:
Umm...Clefable isn't anywhere near frail. 95/73/90 is quite bulky. Also, unaware is typically the superior abilty, but 1. Aegislash should NEVER use stance dance, and 2, Char-X and Pinsir aren't being stopped by clefable. And you should NEVER, EVER, EVER use a cosmic power set. And Chansey has absolutely no place on balance, let alone offense. Also, clefable has base 95 special attack, which with calm mind, is significant offensive presence. You CLEARLY don't know clefable.
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Speaking from experience, Cosmic Power Clefable can work. You just need to give it some support, i.e. clear out the opponent's obvious counters with trappers. I made a very successful team with that strategy (1800+).

Also, Chansey is great choice for balanced teams. I might write up a proper post on this later, but it is quite possibly the best Pokémon to use as a general sponge for incoming strong attacks. Along with outright walling too many Pokémon to count, and absorbing & clearing status, it can survive almost any boosted hit in order to cripple something with Thunder Wave, saving a team from being swept. People love to use Thundurus as their anti-sweep backup plan, but Chansey does a perfectly fine job of it too.

+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 570-672 (80.9 - 95.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Seriously one of the absolute best Pokémon in the game
 
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Clefable is more A than A+. reason: Fairy is good, but not excellent.

Clefable doesn't have either godly defensive stats, and has average type. Good type, but not spectacular (not many resistances).

However, if you manage to set up it's very threatening, because with 3 or more Cam Mind his Stored Power are very powerfu.

And about Stored Power and CM:
0 Boosts: 20 BP
1 Boost: 60 BP at +1.
2 CM: 100 BP at +2.
3 CM: 140 BP at +3. In other words,

But his standard combo not having away to damage Steel types (which are super effective), Steel STAB being more common than BW, and the presence of strong physical non-resisted attacks makes means that looks more of an A threat (has decent (good when fully invested) physical bulk and great special bulk, specially after Calm Mind is used). Also, being easy to revenge kill (with physical attack) because his 60 Base Speed which is never boosted.

It looks like an B+ pokemon. But it's higher because Clefable has many viable movesets and move options depending of the needs of your team, being one of the msot unpredictable pokemon of the game.
 
Clefable isn't that unpredictable to be honest, and simply having SR up gives you the exact knowledge of what ability it has when it comes in, and because of move + ability incompatibilities as well as general set effectiveness, it also reveals information about its moves and therefore you generally have a good idea as to how to tackle it.
 
Eievui-Nymphia said:
Clefable is more A than A+. reason: Fairy is good, but not excellent.

Clefable doesn't have either godly defensive stats, and has average type. Good type, but not spectacular (not many resistances).

However, if you manage to set up it's very threatening, because with 3 or more Cam Mind his Stored Power are very powerful.

And about Stored Power and CM:
0 Boosts: 20 BP
1 Boost: 60 BP at +1.
2 CM: 100 BP at +2.
3 CM: 140 BP at +3. In other words,

But his standard combo not having away to damage Steel types (which are super effective), Steel STAB being more common than BW, and the presence of strong physical non-resisted attacks makes means that looks more of an A threat (has decent (good when fully invested) physical bulk and great special bulk, specially after Calm Mind is used). Also, being easy to revenge kill (with physical attack) because his 60 Base Speed which is never boosted.

It looks like an B+ pokemon. But it's higher because Clefable has many viable movesets and move options depending of the needs of your team, being one of the msot unpredictable pokemon of the game.
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...what.

Fairy is an excellent typing. By your logic Dragon type isn't that much better considering it only has 1 more resist. Fairy has Resists in key places. Fighting, Dark and Bug. It resists the U-Turns. It resists the Knock Offs and Sucker Puncher and Pursuits. The Mach Punches and Focus Blasts can mean little.

Clefable's subpar stats doesn't mean that it is deserving of a lower rank. If anything, its the one thing holding it back from S-Rank. Do yourself a favor and imagine if Clefable had any one of its stats, bar Sp.A because its at 95 already, pierce the 100 benchmark. Even Attack because Clefable is no slouch in the Physical Movepool department.

Clefable's ability to fit on most teams not labeled "hyper offensive" is amazing because of that movepool.
 
Redolent said:
Magic Guard Clefable is far from being one of the best Pokémon to beat stall with, it has been used for that purpose for a long time and though that wouldn't happen if it didn't have some very useful tools at its disposal, it won't overcome any stall team made by an experienced player.

Firstly, even at +6 it fails to 2HKO Chansey (and Unaware Quagsire/Clefable), so between them they can stall it for 32 turns+ with the combined recovery of Soft-Boiled and Recover (with Wish the stalling is even easier), and Quagsire can come in when it likes to remove the boosts with Haze if another team member is better placed to defeat it. Amoonguss can remove its boosts easily with Clear Smog and waste its attacks' PP by switching out for Regenerator recovery. Any Pokémon with a fast Encore will cripple it, as will any Pokémon with Trick (Trick Gothitelle is finding its way onto a lot of stall teams). Switching into it with a fast, bulky Taunt user also completely shuts it down - Mew, Heatran and others can do this very well. Unaware CM Clefable beats its Magic Guard counterpart every time. All of this goes without mentioning the fact that many stall teams do have a Pokémon on them with the power to muscle through Clefable before it can boost too highly.



Speaking from experience, Cosmic Power Clefable can work. You just need to give it some support, i.e. clear out the opponent's obvious counters with trappers. I made a very successful team with that strategy (1800+).

Also, Chansey is great choice for balanced teams. I might write up a proper post on this later, but it is quite possibly the best Pokémon to use as a general sponge for incoming strong attacks. Along with outright walling too many Pokémon to count, and absorbing & clearing status, it can survive almost any boosted hit in order to cripple something with Thunder Wave, saving a team from being swept. People love to use Thundurus as their anti-sweep backup plan, but Chansey does a perfectly fine job of it too.

+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 570-672 (80.9 - 95.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Seriously one of the absolute best Pokémon in the game
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What.... first off, roar and taunt just shit on CP shitfable, and the fact that chansey is complete setup bait for half of the meta, and if it isn't setup bait its taunt bait, makes it a horrible choice for any team archetype but stall. Sylveon isn't setup bait, isn't taunt bait, and can do what chansey does. Literally the only thing keeping chansey from being outclassed by sylveon is the bulk. Sylveon is the superior choice for balance, making chansey a horrible choice. Also, Thundurus should be used over chansey for thunder waving unless its on stall, because theres a chance it might not actually take damage, unlike chansey. Also, exactly what trappers are you using to get rid of CP shitfables counters?(shitfable only applies to CP) There are literally too many counters to list.
 
I very certainly think Rotom Wash and should be A rank. Rotom Wash is a complete boss, with arguably the most useful typing and ability to go with in the game. Walling more than half the metagame and burning to make their attacks even more pitiful. It's unpredictable sometimes and even if you have a counter, it can just Volt Switch on your Venusaur and into Talonflame. Just based on performance alone, I can look you straight in the eye and say that Rotom Wash deserves A rank.
 
LeekSlap/ChewyDonuts said:
I very certainly think Rotom Wash and should be A rank. Rotom Wash is a complete boss, with arguably the most useful typing and ability to go with in the game. Walling more than half the metagame and burning to make their attacks even more pitiful. It's unpredictable sometimes and even if you have a counter, it can just Volt Switch on your Venusaur and into Talonflame. Just based on performance alone, I can look you straight in the eye and say that Rotom Wash deserves A rank.
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Typing is good. Defenses are only ok and it has no reliable recovery. You can't "just Volt Switch" on anything either. Rotom-W was good when all the hype surrounded Wonderbug and Smogonbird but not as much anymore.
 
Lil YoshiXD said:
+6 4 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 67-79 (17.3 - 20.4%)
In return 4 SpA Heatran Lava Plume vs. +6 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable: 22-27 (5.5 - 6.8%) not counting for SPA drops

It may take a while, but heatran eventually dies. also this is w/o life orb which clefable commonly uses.
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um, stored power does WAYYY more than that even without sp attack evs

+6 0 SpA Clefable Stored Power (260 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 246-289 (63.7 - 74.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
 
RotomPoison said:
The idea behind that is Stored Power CP Clefable is bad.
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Stored power is probably outclassed a lot of the time and i read the thing i was replying to wrong (honestly don't know what it said) but yeah stored helps with venusaur/heatran/unaware pokes which it can't do normally and ik its not the best but yeah.
 
TheWyvernKing said:
Stored power is probably outclassed a lot of the time and i read the thing i was replying to wrong (honestly don't know what it said) but yeah stored helps with venusaur/heatran/unaware pokes which it can't do normally and ik its not the best but yeah.
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It would never help against them as it shouldn't be staying in on them. Quagsire will burn with Scald, Heatran will burn with Lava Plume, Venusaur just wins completely
 
Cosmic Power may be bad, but Calm Mind Magic Guard Clefable with Stored Power is a really cool balanced/bulky offense Pokemon that can absolutely murder stall if given the chance to set up. Stored Power is a pretty ridiculous move, and gains 40 BP every time Clefable boosts, which is nuts.
 
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