Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V2) (Last update on post #5189)

[Gary]

Just in case some of you didn't check the VR thread yet (lol who does anymore) here are the latest updates:

http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...thread-re-ranking.3502268/page-7#post-5496015

Lastly, (sorry about the big post) I think omaster should drop to C-. A very very niche pokemon and should never ever be used unless a team is being built around it. It may have a suprise factor but never really gets an opportunity to set up, can't get past bulky pokemon, unuware clef is everywhere, it dies to priority and is pretty much complete crap, definately c- stuff.

Wait you do realize that Omastar is only on this list because of its viability on rain teams correct? The analysis originally had a standalone Weak Armor Shell Smash set (god knows why) but I'm pretty sure the only set now is the good old SS smash set. Albeit a pretty subpar option on rain, LO Smash is a really dangerous sweeper if given the chance to set up, and it can even use Specs to fire off incredibly powerful rain boosted Hydro Pumps, capable of 2HKOing Ferrothorn. It also has some pretty cool coverage options such as Ice Beam, which is something Keldeo lacks. Again, it's not something that is easy to fit onto any rain team, but it's a pretty cool sweeper and or wallbreaker that can function pretty well with the right support. C rank seems fine for it.

 

[Jacks0n]

Just in case some of you didn't check the VR thread yet (lol who does anymore) here are the latest updates:

http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...thread-re-ranking.3502268/page-7#post-5496015



Wait you do realize that Omastar is only on this list because of its viability on rain teams correct? The analysis originally had a standalone Weak Armor Shell Smash set (god knows why) but I'm pretty sure the only set now is the good old SS smash set. Albeit a pretty subpar option on rain, LO Smash is a really dangerous sweeper if given the chance to set up, and it can even use Specs to fire off incredibly powerful rain boosted Hydro Pumps, capable of 2HKOing Ferrothorn. It also has some pretty cool coverage options such as Ice Beam, which is something Keldeo lacks. Again, it's not something that is easy to fit onto any rain team, it's a pretty cool sweeper and or wallbreaker that can function pretty well with the right support. C rank seems fine for it.

ah, thats what i was missing, i guess C is fine for omaster.

 

[LightningLuxray]

Yeah, Mega Pinsir finds it really, really hard to function in this meta. Unfortunatley, its checks and counters are straight up everywhere. Firstly, Thundurus, Talonflame, and Scarf Tyranitar/Excadrill/Landorus-T/Garchomp/Terrakion are just about on every single offensive team right now, and they all dispose of Mega Pinsir with ease. Normally, it would be as easy as switching out; however, with a massive 4x Stealth Rocks weakness and the large commonality of Stealth Rock Deoxys-D, Deoxys-S, Tyranitar, and Mamoswine, Mega Pinsir really has trouble finding more than 1-2 opportunities to set up a game. A lot of times Mega Pinsir's setting up late-game when all its teammates are dead anyways, so it won't be able to switch out. Not only that, but stall has many options for it as well; Skarmory, Zapdos, and Rotom-W are on just about every defensive team and all deal with this thing remarkably well. Finally, its really hard to justify using Mega Pinsir over a lot of other Mega Evolutions such as Charizard X, Tyranitar, and Gyarados, who can boost their Speed to help remedy their Speed problems. Overall, while Mega Pinsir is far from bad and can sweep teams with ease once it's Checks/Counters are removed, it's really not as viable or good as it once was, and as such should probably be dropped to A

 

[the-bumper-car]

I'm happy with M-Venu finally going back to A+. It's one of the few offensive mons that has managed to survive in the HO-oriented OU meta, and the fact that the mere possibility of it showing up makes the top offensive mons run much worse coverage just to deal with it is a sign of how good it is.

Mandibuzz - I have a feeling that she's still underrated. Her unique typing in OU combined with her extremely handy toolbox of defensive and offensive qualities makes her an odd duck (vulture?) that I feel people have been misusing, which affects how people view her viability. I know I totally misused her when she was on my team. Being a really good counter to Aegislash and boosting sweepers in general thanks to Foul Play, in addition to screwing over set-up mons that rely on Spore/Sleep Powder to eliminate their counters, is a great niche that needs to get more love in OU. She should definitely be recognized as a good defensive mon that can actually fill some crucial roles even on Offensive/Balance teams.

 

[Pagoose]

I agree with everything LightningLuxray has to say about Pinsir.

About Talonflame though, I think it should definitely stay A+. It's just such a good revenge killer and lategame sweeper. Talonflame is probably the pokemon you have to think about most when teambuilding, and if you don't carry at least 1 rock, electric or steel type to check choice band Brave Bird spam then you basically auto-lose against any good team with Talonflame. It's just such a defining force in OU, I really can't see it any lower than A+.

 

[D-Ssain]

If we're on the subject of Pokes that were good but not anymore because the metagame has shifted against them I think Bisharp is another Mon that has lost viability because of the sheer number of counters people run these days for him. Bisharp to A. I think he has fallen into the Mega Pinsir and Mega Charizard Y category where at first you're like OH LOOK THE DAMAGE but then you realize that it is much easier to deal with. It is no longer as threatening as it used to be when Deosharp first started out. It can't even consistenly counter the things its supposed to counter. For ex you switch your Bisharp into Latias who has just defogged. You go for Knock Off expecting it to switch. Well sorry you're dead because he killed you with HP Fighting. Sucker Punch is also extremely unreliable. So let's go back to the Bisharp Vs. Latias scenario. You think he might have HP Fighting so decide to Sucker Punch, but instead she uses Healing Wish and now the opponent's Conk is back at full health. Well there goes all the work Deoxys put in to get those hazards on the field. It also can't reliably switch into Aegislash either, because of the fear that the opponent might predict the switch and Sacred Sword you. At the end of the day Sucker Punch forces Bisharp's user to play mindgames, where at the end of the day the user, not the opponent, relies more on the predictions to be correct. Also, too many stall Pokes counter it rather easily. Quagsire just destroys it. Skarm can defog and not worry about Defiant because Knock Off does 70%ish and so it can phaze or Counter or even Roost Up and not have knock off do the same damage the next turn. The fact of the matter, the metagame is overly prepared for Bisharp and it is no longer the threat it used to be. It filled Mega Luc's shoes rather well but unlike Mega Luc it lacks speed and has psuedo priority, where you are not guaranteed to kill and any faster mon will WOW can burn you.

 

[Rhaegar]

Uhm... No, you don't need all that garbage on the sub set. Run sub seed + 2 attacks. Simple. No need for this Spiky Shield. Please refer to this post I wrote up in far more detail about using Chesnaught. After that's done, I feel you might be able to understand what set I'm using. SubSeed protect isn't used by any mon so far as I know.

Wow that post was far too long and well presented to not be a thread starter. I'm sorry I couldn't go through it all but I don't have much experience with Chesnaught so I'll take your word for it. And I assumed Spiky shield on SubSeed would be used to get that extra turn of Leech Seed Plus Leftovers Recovery so that it can just repeat subs without losing health like how SubToxic Gliscor does.

 

[Ropeburn]

If we're on the subject of Pokes that were good but not anymore because the metagame has shifted against them I think Bisharp is another Mon that has lost viability because of the sheer number of counters people run these days for him. Bisharp to A. I think he has fallen into the Mega Pinsir and Mega Charizard Y category where at first you're like OH LOOK THE DAMAGE but then you realize that it is much easier to deal with. It is no longer as threatening as it used to be when Deosharp first started out. It can't even consistenly counter the things its supposed to counter. For ex you switch your Bisharp into Latias who has just defogged. You go for Knock Off expecting it to switch. Well sorry you're dead because he killed you with HP Fighting. Sucker Punch is also extremely unreliable. So let's go back to the Bisharp Vs. Latias scenario. You think he might have HP Fighting so decide to Sucker Punch, but instead she uses Healing Wish and now the opponent's Conk is back at full health. Well there goes all the work Deoxys put in to get those hazards on the field. It also can't reliably switch into Aegislash either, because of the fear that the opponent might predict the switch and Sacred Sword you. At the end of the day Sucker Punch forces Bisharp's user to play mindgames, where at the end of the day the user, not the opponent, relies more on the predictions to be correct. Also, too many stall Pokes counter it rather easily. Quagsire just destroys it. Skarm can defog and not worry about Defiant because Knock Off does 70%ish and so it can phaze or Counter or even Roost Up and not have knock off do the same damage the next turn. The fact of the matter, the metagame is overly prepared for Bisharp and it is no longer the threat it used to be. It filled Mega Luc's shoes rather well but unlike Mega Luc it lacks speed and has psuedo priority, where you are not guaranteed to kill and any faster mon will WOW can burn you.

Bisharp isn't a sweeper though. The comparison to Mega Lucario makes no sense because both pokemon do completely different things. Bisharp is a "defog-blocker". Having Bisharp on your team is literally like asking: "Are you sure you want to Defog?" because having a pokemon like Bisharp who has 130 attack and STAB Knock Off is scary.

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 239-282 (73.9 - 87.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Keldeo resists that hit and now has no item. )

There's no other pokemon in the tier that punishes teams who rely on Defog to remove hazards as well as Bisharp does.(Thundurus comes close) Even if Skarmory phazes you out after you deal ~85% damage to it that's basically a dead skarmory and you've still got your Bisharp. There's a reason Bisharp was S rank for a time. It's still useful outside of Defog situations and it really puts a punish on slower bulky teams.

I think Bisharp is fine in A+

 

[Jacks0n]

If we're on the subject of Pokes that were good but not anymore because the metagame has shifted against them I think Bisharp is another Mon that has lost viability because of the sheer number of counters people run these days for him. Bisharp to A. I think he has fallen into the Mega Pinsir and Mega Charizard Y category where at first you're like OH LOOK THE DAMAGE but then you realize that it is much easier to deal with. It is no longer as threatening as it used to be when Deosharp first started out. It can't even consistenly counter the things its supposed to counter. For ex you switch your Bisharp into Latias who has just defogged. You go for Knock Off expecting it to switch. Well sorry you're dead because he killed you with HP Fighting. Sucker Punch is also extremely unreliable. So let's go back to the Bisharp Vs. Latias scenario. You think he might have HP Fighting so decide to Sucker Punch, but instead she uses Healing Wish and now the opponent's Conk is back at full health. Well there goes all the work Deoxys put in to get those hazards on the field. It also can't reliably switch into Aegislash either, because of the fear that the opponent might predict the switch and Sacred Sword you. At the end of the day Sucker Punch forces Bisharp's user to play mindgames, where at the end of the day the user, not the opponent, relies more on the predictions to be correct. Also, too many stall Pokes counter it rather easily. Quagsire just destroys it. Skarm can defog and not worry about Defiant because Knock Off does 70%ish and so it can phaze or Counter or even Roost Up and not have knock off do the same damage the next turn. The fact of the matter, the metagame is overly prepared for Bisharp and it is no longer the threat it used to be. It filled Mega Luc's shoes rather well but unlike Mega Luc it lacks speed and has psuedo priority, where you are not guaranteed to kill and any faster mon will WOW can burn you.

Honestly, I could actually see bisharp dropping. It is a great pokemon and by no means is A bad, but the meta has prepared for it, with common stops on hyper offence such as loom and keldeo, complete stops on stall with pokemon such as quag and the fact that with no boosts it is set up bait for bulky zard x needs to be noted. Bisharp is an awesome pokemon, but the meta is prepared and I don't think it is quite at the level of completely amazing pokemon such as mega mawhile, azum and mega gyara.

Also, why the hell are you comparing bish to mega luc. Bish is a defog abuser not really a sweeper, although it can be. Also mega luc could run special and physical sets awesomelly. Different typings and speed tiers, quite different pokes.

 

[Rhaegar]

If we're on the subject of Pokes that were good but not anymore because the metagame has shifted against them I think Bisharp is another Mon that has lost viability because of the sheer number of counters people run these days for him. Bisharp to A. I think he has fallen into the Mega Pinsir and Mega Charizard Y category where at first you're like OH LOOK THE DAMAGE but then you realize that it is much easier to deal with. It is no longer as threatening as it used to be when Deosharp first started out. It can't even consistenly counter the things its supposed to counter. For ex you switch your Bisharp into Latias who has just defogged. You go for Knock Off expecting it to switch. Well sorry you're dead because he killed you with HP Fighting. Sucker Punch is also extremely unreliable. So let's go back to the Bisharp Vs. Latias scenario. You think he might have HP Fighting so decide to Sucker Punch, but instead she uses Healing Wish and now the opponent's Conk is back at full health. Well there goes all the work Deoxys put in to get those hazards on the field. It also can't reliably switch into Aegislash either, because of the fear that the opponent might predict the switch and Sacred Sword you. At the end of the day Sucker Punch forces Bisharp's user to play mindgames, where at the end of the day the user, not the opponent, relies more on the predictions to be correct. Also, too many stall Pokes counter it rather easily. Quagsire just destroys it. Skarm can defog and not worry about Defiant because Knock Off does 70%ish and so it can phaze or Counter or even Roost Up and not have knock off do the same damage the next turn. The fact of the matter, the metagame is overly prepared for Bisharp and it is no longer the threat it used to be. It filled Mega Luc's shoes rather well but unlike Mega Luc it lacks speed and has psuedo priority, where you are not guaranteed to kill and any faster mon will WOW can burn you.

IMO Bisharp is best played outside DeoSharp on a Hyper Offensive team. DeoSharp makes it switch into things which it's not very good at. Its much more reliable to set up an SD at the right moment. But it does provide immense offensive pressure and can even wear Chansey down with Pursuits. It's powerful priority is also a free kill on weakened scarfers and does over 75% to Sand Rush Drill iirc.

In the HP fighting Latias scenario, I would personally go for Sucker Punch because the opponent didn't have a problem going for Defog and I know HP fight Latias is a thing. Even if he switches out he would have to have a Keldeo,Terrakion, Breloom, or Conkeldurr to manage to take on a +2 Bisharp. Which isn't unlikely, but being forced to run HP fighting Latias as well as one of those four mons is a testament to Bisharps threat level.

Bisharp should stay A+ for the same reason Venusaur should be back at A+. They force teams to prepare for them and still do a good job. Once the meta gets used to them not being huge threats, it'll once again start being unprepared and they'll go back to dominating at a level easily deserving of A+.

Although Venusaur was demoted for its defensive set which is A- at best. Offensive Megasaur deserves A+.

 

[Halcyon.]

I disagree greatly with Mega Pinsir dropping. It's still a huge threat and I would say it's major counters like Zapdos and Rotom-W are just about gone. People rely on checks nowadays like Thundurus (which is super easy to wear down) Ttar, and Excadrill to beat it, and each of these are pretty easily exploited with the right teammates. I think it still finds it decently easy to sweep and is dangerous enough to warrant A+.

 

[Jacks0n]

I disagree greatly with Mega Pinsir dropping. It's still a huge threat and I would say it's major counters like Zapdos and Rotom-W are just about gone. People rely on checks nowadays like Thundurus (which is super easy to wear down) Ttar, and Excadrill to beat it, and each of these are pretty easily exploited with the right teammates. I think it still finds it decently easy to sweep and is dangerous enough to warrant A+.

skarm is also a major counter and its usage is still there, although its checks are easy to wear down, where does it set up? So many offencive pokemon can OHKO pinsir with their stabs or even 2OHKO pinsir with their resisted stabs. Pinsir is great but has its flaws, and I really think we should look into Pinsir dropping.

 

[Rhaegar]

On how Pinsir is more easily dealt with than before,

• Pinsir doesn't find it too easy to snag an SD boost against offense and is beaten by faster mons like Greninja when it's not boosted.

• It's walled by Skarmory against stall and can only beat stall when paired with Gothitelle/Magnezone.

• Pinsir is also sort of one-shot sweeper because it really doesn't like switching out and coming back in to rocks after it transforms.

• It's Returns/Frustrations are deadly but there are common faster mons other than Thundurus which can take a +2 Quick Attack and OHKO such as Latios and ScarfChomp.

I could see Pinsir moving down but not quite sure because it doesn't seem to go well with the mons in either A or A+.



What I do believe should move down is Mega Tyranitar with the flood of Sand Rush teams which prefer running Regular Tyranitar. It's a great sweeper but can't OHKO Keldeo at +1 and setting up is pointless when the opponent is packing a Breloom.

It's also commonly predicted since by looking at your team people can generally tell your Tyranitar is the only potential mega unless you're running a Garchomp as well but MegaChomp is not as big a threat so the safe assumption would be the MTtar.

ScarfTar on the other hand is great and can be held in reserve till late game while the opponent doesn't know what kind of a Ttar to expect.

Regular Tyranitar should really be above MegaTTar purely on account of its versatility. It can run Smooth Rock, Scarf, Special Attacker, Focus Sash Lead, AV, and even DD Lum Berry/Life Orb if you want to run another mega. Mega Tyranitar is limited only to one set, and though it's a great set, the fact that you can run only one of either Ttar or MegaTTar in a team, combined with the viability of Sand Rush teams and MegaTar taking up the Mega slot should warrant a one rank difference between them.

 

[Albacore]

Yeah, I totally agree with Halcyon on Mega-Pinsir. It has quite a few counters at +0 and checks at +2, which is what made it lose its S-rank in the first place, but if you lose your answer to it, it can be downright impossible to stop. Although HO can check it without too much difficulty, and Stall usually carries Skarmory which is arguably Pinsir's best counter, it can be a nightmare for Bulky Offense teams that don't pack Rotom-W (who is falling in usage) or Zapdos (once again, falling in usage). So basically, while Pinsir's performance against Stall and HO may not quite worthy of A+, its ability to deal with Bulky Offense and more balanced teams definitely makes it deserving of its current rank.

 

[Halcyon.]

skarm is also a major counter and its usage is still there, although its checks are easy to wear down, where does it set up? So many offencive pokemon can OHKO pinsir with their stabs or even 2OHKO pinsir with their resisted stabs. Pinsir is great but has its flaws, and I really think we should look into Pinsir dropping.

There are plenty of Pokemon that Pinsir can threaten out on offensive teams in order to grab a boost though...the most obvious one is Keldeo, but there are others as well. So many Pokemon take huge amounts of damage from Return that late-game it should be easy as all hell to grab a boost off of something weakened like Garchomp, Landorus, Scarf Excadrill locked into EQ or Rapid Spin, Zard X, Zard Y, Ttar locked into Pursuit, Conkeldurr, Mega Mawile, Gardevoir, Heracross, Breloom with sash broken, etc. I mean all those mons are decently common at the very least and are all forced out by Return without too much prior damage. I mean, obviously it comes down to how you play, but Pinsir just seems so easy to use compared to other Pokemon that need support. It's almost like a forgotten threat that people just say "oh I can just put Thundurus on this team and I'll be fine" when team building, but it's so simple to set up situations where it can sweep. I still think it fits the definition of A+ rank.

 

[Rhaegar]

There are plenty of Pokemon that Pinsir can threaten out on offensive teams in order to grab a boost though...the most obvious one is Keldeo, but there are others as well. So many Pokemon take huge amounts of damage from Return that late-game it should be easy as all hell to grab a boost off of something weakened like Garchomp, Landorus, Scarf Excadrill locked into EQ or Rapid Spin, Zard X, Zard Y, Ttar locked into Pursuit, Conkeldurr, Mega Mawile, Gardevoir, Heracross, Breloom with sash broken, etc. I mean all those mons are decently common at the very least and are all forced out by Return without too much prior damage. I mean, obviously it comes down to how you play, but Pinsir just seems so easy to use compared to other Pokemon that need support. It's almost like a forgotten threat that people just say "oh I can just put Thundurus on this team and I'll be fine" when team building, but it's so simple to set up situations where it can sweep. I still think it fits the definition of A+ rank.

Thing is, if I were playing the Keldeo, I would sac it and just use Scald/Hydro Pump which is either a potential burn or OHKO. Unless you came in after I killed something with secret sword which would be a bad play on my part. If Pinsir manages to take a Scald from Keldeo without getting burnt, then kills it, any faster mon that can take a +2 QA can still KO or force it out at SR KO health.

 

[Jacks0n]

There are plenty of Pokemon that Pinsir can threaten out on offensive teams in order to grab a boost though...the most obvious one is Keldeo, but there are others as well. So many Pokemon take huge amounts of damage from Return that late-game it should be easy as all hell to grab a boost off of something weakened like Garchomp, Landorus, Scarf Excadrill locked into EQ or Rapid Spin, Zard X, Zard Y, Ttar locked into Pursuit, Conkeldurr, Mega Mawile, Gardevoir, Heracross, Breloom with sash broken, etc. I mean all those mons are decently common at the very least and are all forced out by Return without too much prior damage. I mean, obviously it comes down to how you play, but Pinsir just seems so easy to use compared to other Pokemon that need support. It's almost like a forgotten threat that people just say "oh I can just put Thundurus on this team and I'll be fine" when team building, but it's so simple to set up situations where it can sweep. I still think it fits the definition of A+ rank.

but if they choose to stay in, for example keld a specs hydro pump KO's and it is faster lol, it can't grab them too reliably.

 

[Halcyon.]

but if they choose to stay in, for example keld a specs hydro pump KO's and it is faster lol, it can't grab them too reliably.

Ok but this is all a risk v reward kinda thing and will depend on the battle in question, which is what I said in my post lmfao. The point is that Pinsir can KO Keldeo or grab a boost if the opponent is likely to switch out. Could it be that maybe Pjnsir pairs well with Pokemon that appreciate Keldeo being gone like Landorus or Bisharp? That would incentivize the opponent to keep Keldeo alive, thus giving you a setup opportunity, or you get a free +2. The point I'm trying to make is that Pinsir absolutely DOES have plenty of opportunities to set up against offense, whether they are 50/50s or not...

 

[Delibird is Amazing]

What kind of gothitelle set it taunt rest trick? What the hell does that accomplish?
The actual set it should be running is trick/psyshock/and 2 of either thunderbolt, energy ball or hidden power fire, depending on what you want to beat

It is retardedly good on birdspam teams, it traps and kills skarmory and washing machine rotom effortlessly with thunderbolt and energy ball respectively
Tired of chansey walling your special attackers? trick that blob a specs and then just keep spamming psyshock

gothitelle for b+

 

[Anty]

Mega pinsir definitely shouldnt go down, its closer to going up imo. Now that birdspam is going down, there is less need and use for rotom-w and zapdos. Two of its biggest counters have gone down in usage and viability and opposite bird spam has also gone down. Pinsir even has a way to deal with its most common check, rotom-w with mold breaker eq, 40% chance to 2hko - guaranteed with rocks. That is the point of pinsir, to choose whether to megaevo or set up straight away. If you see your opp still has a rotom-w at full health you are not going to set up and try to sweep. Thundurus can only switch in once, mega return is a clean 2hko ohko after sr and 3 spikes in gravity. Only now people are starting to see how to play pinsir better, you dont set up if the opp has counters to stop you, you wear them down with repeated returns.
It isnt hard to get sd's up, pinsir can force many switches and if they stay in, there is a chance of being ko'd.

note: im not saying it should go up, a+ is fine

 

[DC-Shadow_Blaze]

What kind of gothitelle set it taunt rest trick? What the hell does that accomplish?
The actual set it should be running is trick/psyshock/and 2 of either thunderbolt, energy ball or hidden power fire, depending on what you want to beat

It is retardedly good on birdspam teams, it traps and kills skarmory and washing machine rotom effortlessly with thunderbolt and energy ball respectively
Tired of chansey walling your special attackers? trick that blob a specs and then just keep spamming psyshock

gothitelle for b+

If you ever played against the trick taunt set with a stall team, you would ragequit pretty quickly, it derails defense effortlessly. The Toxic stall variant is also an option on a Trick set.

The major issue with offensive TrickSpecs is how easy it is to wear down when switching into things it plans to kill. Even if it removed the targets, you'd likely have to pass a Wish/find a free switch to make Goth useful again if you're don't plan to die as fodder.

No arguments about your proposition on her rank, We just have to keep our mind open to her options.

 

[jbtc10]

What kind of gothitelle set it taunt rest trick? What the hell does that accomplish?
The actual set it should be running is trick/psyshock/and 2 of either thunderbolt, energy ball or hidden power fire, depending on what you want to beat

It is retardedly good on birdspam teams, it traps and kills skarmory and washing machine rotom effortlessly with thunderbolt and energy ball respectively
Tired of chansey walling your special attackers? trick that blob a specs and then just keep spamming psyshock

gothitelle for b+

Taunt is pretty terrible on Goth and shouldn't really be used, but Rest is actually legit. 2 attacks + Trick + Rest is a very decent set. If you don't have Rest, you can cripple Chansey with a choice item, but it will end up killing you if it has Seismic Toss. But B+ is where it should be, yes.

 

[Pagoose]

Taunt is a waste of a moveslot on gothitelle, as the aim against things like chansey is to trick it the scarf and then pp stall them into struggling; all taunt does is decrease the time you spend pp stalling, and the moveshot would be much better spent with a move such as HP fire. I've used trick+taunt+psychic+HP fire on a rain team to trap venusaur, ferrothorn, and chansey, the main things stopping my swift swimmers from cleaning up against stall and balance, and it works amazing to give me the win against something that would normally wall the rest of my team. Even though it is mainly used to basically guarantee a win against stall, it isn't dead-weigh against offense either, being able to trap keldeo and Breloom, as well as weakened 'mons. Unfortunately, gothitelle is just huge setup bait for alot of top tier threats, so more often than not against offense, gothitelle is just used as death fodder on a aegislash's shadow ball. However, its unparalleled ability to tear stall in two, and also doing an amazing job of trapping 'mons for a m-Gyarados sweep (or whatever It may be) make it a B+ 'mon imo.

 

[Monte Cristo]

Bisharp isn't a sweeper though. The comparison to Mega Lucario makes no sense because both pokemon do completely different things. Bisharp is a "defog-blocker". Having Bisharp on your team is literally like asking: "Are you sure you want to Defog?" because having a pokemon like Bisharp who has 130 attack and STAB Knock Off is scary.

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 239-282 (73.9 - 87.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Keldeo resists that hit and now has no item. )

There's no other pokemon in the tier that punishes teams who rely on Defog to remove hazards as well as Bisharp does. Even if Skarmory phazes you out after you deal ~85% damage to it that's basically a dead skarmory and you've still got your Bisharp. There's a reason Bisharp was S rank for a time. It's still useful outside of Defog situations and it really puts a punish on slower bulky teams.

I think Bisharp is fine in A+

"there's no other pokemon" js defiant thundurus is a well known and good pokemon for this role too

 

[Lazybeef]

Taunt is a waste of a moveslot on gothitelle, as the aim against things like chansey is to trick it the scarf and then pp stall them into struggling; all taunt does is decrease the time you spend pp stalling, and the moveshot would be much better spent with a move such as HP fire. I've used trick+taunt+psychic+HP fire on a rain team to trap venusaur, ferrothorn, and chansey, the main things stopping my swift swimmers from cleaning up against stall and balance, and it works amazing to give me the win against something that would normally wall the rest of my team. Even though it is mainly used to basically guarantee a win against stall, it isn't dead-weigh against offense either, being able to trap keldeo and Breloom, as well as weakened 'mons. Unfortunately, gothitelle is just huge setup bait for alot of top tier threats, so more often than not against offense, gothitelle is just used as death fodder on a aegislash's shadow ball. However, its unparalleled ability to tear stall in two, and also doing an amazing job of trapping 'mons for a m-Gyarados sweep (or whatever It may be) make it a B+ 'mon imo.

The taunt/rest/psyshock/trick gothitelle set can single handedly beat entire stall teams. This is from the VR thread "creative and innovative movesets":

So recently theres been a new set going around the top ladderers used to destroy stall teams and a vast number of defensive mons. i know Daaauudee Sandstorm uses it, and Kaz777, and it has been extremely effective, particulary against me, cuz i mostly use stall myself. Its a Gothitelle set, and it literally makes me wanna pull my hair everytime i face it.

Gothitelle @ choice scarf
ability: shadow tag
252 hp (not entirely sure about EVs and nature, i just know its max HP)
- trick
- taunt
- psyshock
- rest

with this set, your job is to switch into any desired wall (chansey, quagsire, skarmory, etc). shadow tag ensures that they cannot switch out. first, you trick them a scarf, locking them into one move. if they used an attack move, it will do pitiful damage, since they're a wall, and then you can use rest and PP stall them out of that attack, forcing them to struggle sooner or later. if they used a support or healing move, you simpy taunt them next turn, which makes them struggle also. oh and the best part is, right before the last turn they die to struggle damage, you can trick again so you get your scarf back, and do the same exact thing again to another wall.

Basically, if completely owning stall is what you want to do this set is something to look into.