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Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V2) (Last update on post #5189)

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Hjwang said:
I agree that Infernape is partially outclassed by Keldeo and Terrakion, but It is much mute versatile than either if the two. Terrakion is Choiced or is sashed with Stealth Rocks/Swords Dance most of the time while Keldeo is almost always Specs or sometimes CM. Basically, Infernape is a lot less predictable.

Edit: While Keldeo outclasses Infernape in many ways, Infernape wrecks stall much easier than Keldeo with its great coverage
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keldeo is a monster vs stall lmao, even if I have 6 checks I shit my pants every time cause scald easily deals with recovery and checks like mega venu, amoong (over time + hp fly + rocks) and cbbnite anyways yeah infernape's WoW stall set and mix set is always a bitch to face however I'm a stall player personally that always unintentionally builds with counters to it, but it deserves B-. great team Nog ^_^

don't mean to double post but unrelatedly- 1 thing I gotta bring up:
Dragonite for A+

Starting with Dragonite:
first of all, at this point I believe 100% that cbbnite is the best utility check you can put on a stall team (mvenu is perfect glue, char X is perfect fire type and one of the best mons if you can afford a mega slot if not heatran) and it's the best dnite set. As featured on "good dragonite m.A.Ad city"- iink: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/good-dnite-m-a-a-d-metagame-dragonite-stall.3509230/ - a claimed to be good team (made by yours truly but trying to have no bias) (back me up Jukain :]) which showcases how much of a monster cbbnite can be on stall checking some of stalls most threatening wallbreakers along with stallbreakers like toxtran running the show from the back. In general I find dnite to fill such an important and powerful niche on balanced and stall as a lando, keld, char Y and aegis check all in one which no other poke can fill in 1 slot. also the dd set can be cool however stall gives it some trouble at times :/.

I'll write up hippo later
 
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kabbes said:
I think Rotom-H is badly undervalued at C+. It suffers in perception because it isn't Rotom-W, but this is silly. Sometimes, you already have water on your team and want a fire version of almost the exact same thing. They play so similarly and yet one is at A- and the other C+!

On its own merits: Rotom-H has a whopping eight resistances and one immunity whilst only having two weaknesses. Like its watery brother, it's also whoppingly bulky and can take a super effective attack in its stride. Yes, it is stealth rock weak, but since it is always played with some type of recovery, it can eat that.

It's also immune to two status effects, which is excellently useful.

Biggest of all, however, is how much of a pain in the ass it is to top tier threats -- remember that Rotom-H generally runs physically defensive, unlike Rotom-W. Aegislash just hates it, as does Talonflame. Scizor quakes in its boots. Mawile runs away. If running double-status (which I do) then DD Char-X can be paralysed to uselessness (as can Char-Y). And let's face it, very few of those top threats would like to switch into a choice of burn or paralysis. All that and Volt Turn too.

Using it for real shows it for the great support that it is. This is no specialist niche mon, it's genuine worth considering for many teams. Because of that, C+ seems waaaay too low. It needs to be B at least.
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Nope, there's problems with moving Rotom-H up.

It's got severe competition in its role as a defensive Fire-type AND as a defensive Electric-type. It's nowhere near as good as Heatran, Char-X, or BU Talonflame at spreading burns, nor is it as good as Zapdos, Thundurus, Rotom-W or Raikou at countering Electric-weak mons. One could argue about the value of something that does a little bit of both, but in this case Rotom-H's severe deficiency in both roles means you're better off running two good mons than running one terrible mon.

Its SR weakness makes it a terrible pivot, especially when combined with its lack of reliable recovery.

Its weakness to Rock and Water are huge liabilities in the current meta, since both are favored attack types (to counter Flying and Fire types), and while one is commonly physical, Water is more commonly special, so investing in one of your defenses might not be enough for you to avoid the 0HKO/2HKO from the top threats in the tier.

Also, seriously, what is your double-status movepool? Thunder Wave, Will-o-Miss, Volt Switch, ???
 
Dude... Rotom-h runs a mirror rotom-wash movepool lol. It's VoltSwitch/PainSplit/OverHeat/Wisp.

And it's pretty damn good. Checks Pinsir-mega decently well, is not bad burn support, and has the advantage of pivoting over grass types who generally give wash hell. A full wall to Scizor, it also resists both forms of pivot moves (volt switch and uturn) and can run a very effective specs set if need be. Immune to Twave, immune to wisp, isn't in long enough to be bothered by toxic... Checks all the electric types in OU, too (Zap/Manectric/Thundy) outside rotom wash. Imo this thing could take B- or B, it needs the spin/defog support badly but then basically runs on it's own.

Edit: Just checked B rank... Meh. I'd put it at B-, doesn't do as well as most of B rank.
 
Monte Cristo said:
keldeo is a monster vs stall lmao, even if I have 6 checks I shit my pants every time cause scald easily deals with recovery and checks like mega venu, amoong (over time + hp fly + rocks) and cbbnite anyways yeah infernape's WoW stall set and mix set is always a bitch to face however I'm a stall player personally that always unintentionally builds with counters to it, but it deserves B-. great team Nog ^_^

don't mean to double post but unrelatedly- 1 thing I gotta bring up:
Dragonite for A+

Starting with Dragonite:
first of all, at this point I believe 100% that cbbnite is the best utility check you can put on a stall team (mvenu is perfect glue, char X is perfect fire type and one of the best mons if you can afford a mega slot if not heatran) and it's the best dnite set. As featured on "good dragonite m.A.Ad city"- iink: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/good-dnite-m-a-a-d-metagame-dragonite-stall.3509230/ - a claimed to be good team (made by yours truly but trying to have no bias) (back me up Jukain :]) which showcases how much of a monster cbbnite can be on stall checking some of stalls most threatening wallbreakers along with stallbreakers like toxtran running the show from the back. In general I find dnite to fill such an important and powerful niche on balanced and stall as a lando, keld, char Y and aegis check all in one which no other poke can fill in 1 slot. also the dd set can be cool however stall gives it some trouble at times :/.

I'll write up hippo later
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Definately Agree on this. Most people rank Nite based on the CB and DD sets but CBBNite is the foremost reason to be ranking him. It can literally fit on any team, even in some HO teams, and be the glue of the team. It checks so many threats at once, both Special and Physical and can even revenge kill weakened priority users thanks to ESpeed. Seriously, like Monte said, how many mons are there that can check Lando, Keld, CharY and Aegi with one set while also having offensive presence and doesn't have any glaring weaknesses other than hazard control, which is pretty easily remedied by a Roost that isn't competing for a moveslot. move it to A+
 
The thing that keeps Dnite from being A+, at least in my experience, is both his reliance on his ability, as well as his middling speed. Banded Dnite is great. There really aren't any arguments against that. However, Defog or. Spin support is 110% mandatory on him. Otherwise, yu have something that's outsped by a good portion of the metagame, and while not frail, has a mediocre defensive typing as well as only above average bulk (roughly at the same level as Garchomp). Multiscale saves him from this, and is the main reason why he's OU right now.

The other thing I mentioned is his speed. Base 80 is okay, but you're not gonna get anywhere fast with that, as the OU benchmark is base 100. Now, he does have Extreme Speed, which is not only priority, but is also a +2 priority which allows him to go before anything else (including opposing priority). However, over relying on priority to hit faster threats just simply doesn't go very well, especially when that priority is of the Normal type and you're locked into it. Anyways, once Multiscale is broken, most of the A+ and S rank Pokémon can check/ counter him quite easily. Additionally, he needs team support to remove fairies and physical walls for the opposing side. More than Garchomp or Latios, who are A+ rank dragons.

Tl;dr Dnite is definitely good, but has a few key flaws in speed, ability, and team support that keeps him from A+.
 
Cloneblazer12 said:
The thing that keeps Dnite from being A+, at least in my experience, is both his reliance on his ability, as well as his middling speed. Banded Dnite is great. There really aren't any arguments against that. However, Defog or. Spin support is 110% mandatory on him. Otherwise, yu have something that's outsped by a good portion of the metagame, and while not frail, has a mediocre defensive typing as well as only above average bulk (roughly at the same level as Garchomp). Multiscale saves him from this, and is the main reason why he's OU right now.

The other thing I mentioned is his speed. Base 80 is okay, but you're not gonna get anywhere fast with that, as the OU benchmark is base 100. Now, he does have Extreme Speed, which is not only priority, but is also a +2 priority which allows him to go before anything else (including opposing priority). However, over relying on priority to hit faster threats just simply doesn't go very well, especially when that priority is of the Normal type and you're locked into it. Anyways, once Multiscale is broken, most of the A+ and S rank Pokémon can check/ counter him quite easily. Additionally, he needs team support to remove fairies and physical walls for the opposing side. More than Garchomp or Latios, who are A+ rank dragons.

Tl;dr Dnite is definitely good, but has a few key flaws in speed, ability, and team support that keeps him from A+.
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I feel like you're trying to rank DNite's Viability solely by its banded set rather than the sum of its good sets (there is also DDance and CBBNite.)
 
KztxL7 said:
You can't just "eat" a stealth rock weakness on a Pokemon like Rotom-H. It doesn't have actual recovery options like Zard-X, Zapdos, or Mandibuzz (Roost). Its suffering the same problem as Rotom-W in that it gets worn down over time and losing 25% hp on a switch in just makes that easier.
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Rotom-H's job is to spread status and volt out, whilst also threatening some of the biggest threats in the game. It doesn't have to last the full match to do that. Either you have hazard control or you accept that it'll eventually be worn down. But eventually still lasts a surprisingly long time.

Talking of being worn down, I find more problems with Rotom-W, who always I seem to walk into a stray burn. None of that with Rotom-H.

the-bumper-car said:
Nope, there's problems with moving Rotom-H up.

It's got severe competition in its role as a defensive Fire-type AND as a defensive Electric-type. It's nowhere near as good as Heatran, Char-X, or BU Talonflame at spreading burns, nor is it as good as Zapdos, Thundurus, Rotom-W or Raikou at countering Electric-weak mons. One could argue about the value of something that does a little bit of both, but in this case Rotom-H's severe deficiency in both roles means you're better off running two good mons than running one terrible mon.

Its SR weakness makes it a terrible pivot, especially when combined with its lack of reliable recovery.

Its weakness to Rock and Water are huge liabilities in the current meta, since both are favored attack types (to counter Flying and Fire types), and while one is commonly physical, Water is more commonly special, so investing in one of your defenses might not be enough for you to avoid the 0HKO/2HKO from the top threats in the tier.

Also, seriously, what is your double-status movepool? Thunder Wave, Will-o-Miss, Volt Switch, ???
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I use Thunder Wave in place of Rest/Pain Split and rely on lefties for recovery. He's going to wear out mid-game but by then he'll already have done his damage, with the opposition thoroughly status'd by then.

Weakness to rock and water are not necessarily a problem in the right team. Maybe the rest of your team copies fine with these and you need grass resist. Maybe burn resist is more important to you. Maybe you need to flat out check Aegislash, Mega Scizor , Mega Pinsir and Mega Mawile all in one package.

Mowtom said:
Rotom-W always runs physically defensive. Which OU have you been playing?
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Its Smogon-approved recommended set is specially defensive. Meh, the meta moves about and trends go both ways. But in the long run, its most comfortable blocking special attacks.

Rotom-H doesn't need to be A or anything. But it doesn't belong in the general C category. Especially not when Rotom-W is A-
 
Cloneblazer12 said:
The thing that keeps Dnite from being A+, at least in my experience, is both his reliance on his ability, as well as his middling speed. Banded Dnite is great. There really aren't any arguments against that. However, Defog or. Spin support is 110% mandatory on him. Otherwise, yu have something that's outsped by a good portion of the metagame, and while not frail, has a mediocre defensive typing as well as only above average bulk (roughly at the same level as Garchomp). Multiscale saves him from this, and is the main reason why he's OU right now.

The other thing I mentioned is his speed. Base 80 is okay, but you're not gonna get anywhere fast with that, as the OU benchmark is base 100. Now, he does have Extreme Speed, which is not only priority, but is also a +2 priority which allows him to go before anything else (including opposing priority). However, over relying on priority to hit faster threats just simply doesn't go very well, especially when that priority is of the Normal type and you're locked into it. Anyways, once Multiscale is broken, most of the A+ and S rank Pokémon can check/ counter him quite easily. Additionally, he needs team support to remove fairies and physical walls for the opposing side. More than Garchomp or Latios, who are A+ rank dragons.

Tl;dr Dnite is definitely good, but has a few key flaws in speed, ability, and team support that keeps him from A+.
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Did you even read the posts nominating it for A+? They specifically mentioned CBBNite, not BandNite, being the reason for it to be bumped. If you don't know, CBBNite was a set made by its namesake, CrashingBoomBang, that works like a special tank (don't quote me on this, CBB made the set for some reason). It beats so many threatening mons that im too lazy to state again and can actually provide offensive pressure, as well as being able to revenge kill weakened threats with Espeed.
 
As much As I hate BP and will never use it, I think 3 man BP chains need to be addressed. I think BP teams post nerf are more comparable to deosharp than anything. Scolipede + espeon are the Deoxys D and Bisharp of baton pass. Scolipede and espeon are irreplacable but the rest of the members can vary throughout the teams. Post nerf 3 man baton chains are now more varied and more varied pokemon in the other three slots. Although BP post nerf is harder to use, it definately pays off. It is a lot harder to prepare for these teams because they are more varied and if anything, the nerf has opened peoples eyes to the possibilities of different and diverse BP teams. Untill BP gets quick banned (my wish lol) I think scolipede and espeon should be ranked higher because they are the staples of the playstyle and 3 man baton chains are extremely dangerous and are now more diverse and harder to prepare for, I think BP can now be classed as a playstle instead of a team.
 
I have to support Scolipede and Espeon for at least A- rank for the reasons grassycows mentioned.
The BP "nerf" did nothing but open a Pandora's box that allowed BP chains to become much unpredictable while not changing the fact that you need to carry obscure checks in order to stop them. Not even two days have passed and Denisss has already managed to reach the top of the ladder with a variation of the original BP team and who knows how many other viable variants are there.
The current teams rely on a dual screen lead such as Deoxys-S (who is already S rank) as well as two designed BP recipients who cover each other's weaknesses. Denisss is currently using Clefable and Vaporeon but of course there are dozens of other options for that role.
Either way it's the combination of Scolipede and Espeon that makes this archetype possible, and therefore they deserve A- rank.
 
grassycow said:
As much As I hate BP and will never use it, I think 3 man BP chains need to be addressed. I think BP teams post nerf are more comparable to deosharp than anything. Scolipede + espeon are the Deoxys D and Bisharp of baton pass. Scolipede and espeon are irreplacable but the rest of the members can vary throughout the teams. Post nerf 3 man baton chains are now more varied and more varied pokemon in the other three slots. Although BP post nerf is harder to use, it definately pays off. It is a lot harder to prepare for these teams because they are more varied and if anything, the nerf has opened peoples eyes to the possibilities of different and diverse BP teams. Untill BP gets quick banned (my wish lol) I think scolipede and espeon should be ranked higher because they are the staples of the playstyle and 3 man baton chains are extremely dangerous and are now more diverse and harder to prepare for, I think BP can now be classed as a playstle instead of a team.
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I'm 1600+ on about 8 alts solely with a Quickpass Scoli team, and it's definitely the fastest and easiest way to ladder up until that point, but then things start to become a lot more difficult for you and the free wins start grinding to a halt. If your opponent isn't dumb and has a good team, winning can be a pretty big challenge just as it is against any other team.

I still have no idea why Scoli isn't ranked A- yet, we've been calling for that since the start of 2014. It basically enables a playstyle and has some other strong, viable sets. Espeon is good, but not as good as Scolipede, so B+ may be more appropriate for it for the time being.
 
But the thing about Espeon is that it commands the entire playstyle just like Scolipede does.
Froslass was S-rank in BW UU because she commanded the HO playstyle there, just like Deo-D is S-rank now because it commands HO in XY OU.

Perhaps what you're trying to say is that Scolipede is more useful than Espeon outside BP chains, and thus it deserves a higher rank?
 
Flamer said:
Did you even read the posts nominating it for A+? They specifically mentioned CBBNite, not BandNite, being the reason for it to be bumped. If you don't know, CBBNite was a set made by its namesake, CrashingBoomBang, that works like a special tank (don't quote me on this, CBB made the set for some reason). It beats so many threatening mons that im too lazy to state again and can actually provide offensive pressure, as well as being able to revenge kill weakened threats with Espeed.
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My bad. I misread CBBNite as CBNite, which I assumed was Choice Band.
 
Rotosect said:
But the thing about Espeon is that it commands the entire playstyle just like Scolipede does.
Froslass was S-rank in BW UU because she commanded the HO playstyle there, just like Deo-D is S-rank now because it commands HO in XY OU.

Perhaps what you're trying to say is that Scolipede is more useful than Espeon outside BP chains, and thus it deserves a higher rank?
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Espeon is virtually staple on any team that features a quick-passing Scolipede, absolutely, but I'd say there is good reason to believe that Scolipede commands the playstyle moreso than Espeon because Espeon absolutely needs Defense + Speed in order to function and is thus pretty much entirely dependent on Scolipede, whereas Scolipede can still support other things in this way independently of Espeon. In fact, I often find Unaware CM Clefable being my most frequently used win-con that Scoli passes to, which sort of illustrates the point I'm making. Espeon has another niche outside being a BP receiver as a Stallbreaker, but the set is pretty mediocre to say the least against everything else so most players wont opt to use it for that role. And yes, Scoli has more viable uses outside of BP than Espeon which is something to consider factoring into their relative positions.
 
Cloneblazer12 said:
The thing that keeps Dnite from being A+, at least in my experience, is both his reliance on his ability.
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cbbnite barely uses Multiscale in general it just uses it as a safety measure vs hp ice thundy,greninja and icy wind keld which it can completely rely on having with lefties and roost:
252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 216 HP / 228 SpD Dragonite: 168-199 (44.5 - 52.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
(hits back: 68+ Atk Dragonite Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 152-180 (46.9 - 55.5%) -- 17.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery_
252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Amoonguss: 173-204 (40 - 47.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 216 HP / 228 SpD Amoonguss: 195-230 (46 - 54.3%) -- 4.7% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
bulkier than Amoonguss w/o multiscale. things like spooky/LO crumblr destroy stall teams because they force sdef hippo which opens holes for char X, which cbbnite sorta fixes. not only this but it can reliably check things like knock off and sludge wave landorus w/ SR!:
Knock Off Landorus:
SR = 25%
+
0- Atk Life Orb Landorus Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 216 HP / 0 Def Dragonite: 103-122 (27.3 - 32.3%) -- 63.4% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
+
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Psychic vs. 216 HP / 228 SpD Dragonite: 123-146 (32.6 - 38.7%) -- 4.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
= 96 DMG MAX
ROOST after psychic
Sludge Wave Landorus:
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Sludge Wave vs. 216 HP / 228 SpD Dragonite: 130-153 (34.4 - 40.5%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
2x SW + SR = 93.8 DMG
Roost after 2nd Sludge Wave

In all seriousness only switch into SR in emergencies as dnite tends to hold up the team from multiple threats so getting health ridden of is not very good. I feel like we should treat it's hazard removal needing problems no worse than char X
 
Okay, I'm gonna repeat some things I've said before, which may not have been noticed.

Mew needs to be promoted to B+. It's becoming very common lately, and for a good reason. It's a very annoying pokemon, being fast and having great bulk, and a moveset that expands to infinity. It's a good defogger, burn spreader, mixed wall, and much more. It's not completely countered by Aegislash like most psychics due to having Knock Off. It's an unpredictable and incredibly annoying pokemon, often used as a glue to stall and balanced teams alike.

Alomomola needs to be ranked. This pokemon is more limited to stall (though I've seen it do well on balance), and it doesn't have a big niche, but it works. It's job is being a mixed defense, wish passer, with regenerator. It funcions like Slowbro, spamming Scald and coming in and out, but instead of having Slowbro's physical bulk, it has Wishes. It's a pokemon that tends to last for the entire match and be very annoying to face, due to having decent enough bulk to wall quite a lot of things. I believe it should be somewhere around C+.
 
Ninja Charizard said:
Mew needs to be promoted to B+. It's becoming very common lately
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No it's not lol, or not at a high level at least.
Ninja Charizard said:
It's a very annoying pokemon, being fast and having great bulk, and a moveset that expands to infinity. It's a good defogger, burn spreader, mixed wall, and much more.
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Agree for the most part that it can do all of this, but there is not much of a reason to use Mew over other Defog users outside of you just wanting to be a hipster :/
Ninja Charizard said:
It's not completely countered by Aegislash like most psychics due to having Knock Off.
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Interesting, would you name me a Psychic type that doesn't have a Ghost attack, a Fire attack, a Ground attack, or a Dark attack? All the Psychic types used in OU have at least one of these.
Ninja Charizard said:
It's an unpredictable and incredibly annoying pokemon, often used as a glue to stall and balanced teams alike.
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Yes it is annoying.

Ninja Charizard said:
Alomomola needs to be ranked. This pokemon is more limited to stall (though I've seen it do well on balance), and it doesn't have a big niche, but it works. It's job is being a mixed defense, wish passer, with regenerator. It funcions like Slowbro, spamming Scald and coming in and out, but instead of having Slowbro's physical bulk, it has Wishes. It's a pokemon that tends to last for the entire match and be very annoying to face, due to having decent enough bulk to wall quite a lot of things. I believe it should be somewhere around C+.
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IF we were considering to add this in it would be nowhere near C+. D rank at most and even that's a stretch. Problem is it's way too niche and has relatively no usage even on stall unless again you want to be hipster. I love Mantine on my stall teams but that doesn't mean it needs to be ranked here. All in all I disagree with both :/
 
Hi fleurdyleurse here.
I think that Mega Alakazam should be moved to B+/B.
Here's my reasoning:
Valentine, Albacore, Srn9130, Smog Frog and I have been building a team with Mega Alakazam. I don't have the calcs with me now but Jolly Pinsir only 2HKOes it. Sure, it needs support, but the B-Rank is for stuff that needs support!
It cannot be placed with stuff like Weavile and Rhyperior! Let's look at its stats:
when mega evolved w/ Modest, it ties with base 132s, and therefore, outspeeds:
Landorus, Keldeo, Terrakion, Latios, Weavile, Greninja, the Charizards and almost the entire tier.
Trace is very useful: it can copy Protean, regenerator, Sheer Force, Magic Guard, et cetera.
Even if it copies a bad ability, it isn't crippled at all; it can spam attacks with it's base 175 Special Attack.
Also, for those who want to say that Deo-S outclasses it, you are wrong. Alakazam has a much more reliable STAB, higher Special Attack, and better bulk.

When it comes to stall/wallbreaking, it can use Taunt for stall, use Psyshock to heavily damage stuff, and win.
The teammates that it really needs are Keldeo and Bisharp, and they themselves are a core.
I'll let the aforementioned tagged people to cover for me after this.
 
Very true fleurdyleurse, let me reiterate my previous post.
Smog Frog said:
Bro, you forgot to move megazam up to B or B+. It doesnt die to every priority attack that exists, and with a stellar base 150 speed, it can run a modest nature and outspeed the entire unboosted metagame sans megaman and deo-s. With a modest nature and a HUGE base 175 special attack, it just hits BRUTALLY. and with its ability trace, it might trace protean, sheer force, or some other useful ability and just shit all over the tier. it doesnt even need to trace a good ability! as long as it has speed and power, it can do a number on any team. literally all the support it needs is a talonflame switch-in(should be on every team), a pursuit user, and a decent fighting type. and its just way better than things like mega ampharos and mega absol, and it is more comparable to or better than things like lucario and amoonguss. just get the cereal killer out of B-, pls.
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