+2 252 SpA Mega Lucario Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 12 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 258-304 (79.6 - 93.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
^Yeah, just ignore that
Last edited:
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
XY Suspect Testing Round 1 np: Michael Jackson - (extreme)Speed Demon (READ POST #1278)
- Thread starter Aldaron
- Start date
- Status
^Yeah, just ignore that
SD aegislash is almost a counter (key word, almost) to mega luc, as it doesn't need a boost to one shot mega luc with sacred sword and mega luc's dark moves never OHKO even at +2, you need an adamant nature and max EVs in attack to achieve this
all other sets are about 50/50 as neither OHKO each but after that, it's all down to prediction (does mega luc predict the king's sheild, does aegislash go for the priority, does mega luc use priority, does mega luc set up, etc) whoever messes up loses
mega venusaur does not beat special luc
+2 252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Venusaur: 234-276 (64.2 - 75.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Mega Venusaur Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Lucario: 160-190 (56.9 - 67.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Mega Venusaur Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Lucario: 136-162 (48.3 - 57.6%) -- 93.4% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Mega Venusaur Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Lucario: 184-218 (65.4 - 77.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
and sleep powder has shaky accuracy and in personal use has been found to be more of a momentum killer on mega venu than anything but seeding does a number to mega luc (in that case, both would die probably)
all other sets are about 50/50 as neither OHKO each but after that, it's all down to prediction (does mega luc predict the king's sheild, does aegislash go for the priority, does mega luc use priority, does mega luc set up, etc) whoever messes up loses
mega venusaur does not beat special luc
+2 252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Venusaur: 234-276 (64.2 - 75.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Mega Venusaur Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Lucario: 160-190 (56.9 - 67.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Mega Venusaur Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Lucario: 136-162 (48.3 - 57.6%) -- 93.4% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Mega Venusaur Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Lucario: 184-218 (65.4 - 77.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
and sleep powder has shaky accuracy and in personal use has been found to be more of a momentum killer on mega venu than anything but seeding does a number to mega luc (in that case, both would die probably)
*Calcs at +2 when Aegislash is coming in when you setup*
*Calcs using Shield and not Blade*
Try again.
Why is Aegislash attacking in shield form?
*Facepalm*
0 Atk Aegislash-Blade Sacred Sword vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 248-292 (88.2 - 103.9%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
There's still no guarantee to OHKO, and Luke is likely to be at +2 by the time you send him in anyway.
Also Mood4food77 that's why you come in as Mega Lucario sets up, tank a hit and Sleep Powder, and then 2HKO with EQ/HP Fire. Whether you like Sleep Powder or not is irrelevant. I'm not saying that this is an ideal way of countering Mega Lucario - it's absolutely not - but it's as universal of a counter as you're gonna get besides Aegislash. If your Mega Venusaur is at reasonable health and you don't miss Sleep Powder/get an early wake, you're always beating Mega Luke whether it is special or physical. If anything this proves how difficult it is to counter Mega Lucario: it's nearly impossible.
EDIT: Karxrida Shadow Sneak guarantees the kill. Point invalid :\ The special set doesn't even have priority to hit Aegislash with.
EDIT: Karxrida Shadow Sneak guarantees the kill. Point invalid :\ The special set doesn't even have priority to hit Aegislash with.
Most aegislash can definitely handle mega lucario... that has been proven many times in this thread, it can switch in while luke sets up, live a hit and then shadow sneak for the kill if it lives.
Anyway, I wanted to make a comparison with deo-s and mega-kangashan.
Obviously mega-khan is incredibly OP and deserved the quick ban, but iirc one of the arguments was that it was like he had a choice band and the ability to switch moves. And with deo-s it seems he acts like he has a scarf and can switch moves. The only difference is that there are scarfers that outspeed him, but i just wanted to throw that comparison out there and see what you guys think. Im still against a ban for deo-s but I can see why he would be.
And then Shadow Sneak:
0 Atk Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Lucario: 69-82 (24.5 - 29.1%)
This is still far from ideal though since you've basically killed your Aegislash at this point.
(ninja'd twice lol)
I think that the most important thing to realize with this comparison is that, while there are ways around Deoxys-S' "choice scarf" (priority, scarfers with more than 102 base speed), there was no way to effectively stop Mega Khan from having that insane attack stat. And it had priority too.
Mega Lucario: What's interesting about him is 1. He can run both Special and Physical versions of his sets, meaning many teams are having to run multiple "counters" to him. 2. His counters are all 2HKOd at +2, and most are weak to Stealth Rocks, bar Aegislash (who proceeds to lose to Mega Lucario if said Mega Lucario goes straight for Crunch/Dark Pulse, then comes in later and sweeps). It can be revenge killed, but then you're forced to sacrifice something just to bring out your check. It should also be noted that counters tend to avoid getting 2HKOd by the +1 or +2 thing they counter. And 3. It has a guaranteed 2HKO on Chansey on the special side. Yes, it's hitting super-effective, but to give you a rough idea, that's doing as much damage as Lustrous Orb Palkia's Hydro Pump in the rain...at +2.
Genesect: Everything about it screams fantastic Pokemon, that can't be denied. As much as everybody loves that it's easy to slap on their teams and fill a ton of holes, it's fairly broken. It only has 1 common OU counter (Heatran), however, other bulky Fire types can beat it. Somewhat on the fence about this one, though leaning towards "ban".
Deoxys-S: To be completely honest, I'm still trying to figure out who decided this seemed like it should be on the first line of suspects. With Genesect, Mega Lucario, Mega Pinsir, Talonflame, Aegislash, Azumarill, and Mega Venusaur running around, most people don't even bother considering it in teambuilding. While it can guarantee momentum, the same could be said of Deo-D, Smeargle, Mew, and just about anything with a good support movepool and the ability to hold a Focus Sash. The whole "scarfer without the scarf" thing, I get, but frankly it's just weak and can hardly put a dent in common bulky mons. If having a pseudo-Scarf was that bad, Victini should be up here for having a pseudo-Band in V-Create, or Porygon-Z for having pseudo-specs in its Adaptability and Download abilities.
Genesect: Everything about it screams fantastic Pokemon, that can't be denied. As much as everybody loves that it's easy to slap on their teams and fill a ton of holes, it's fairly broken. It only has 1 common OU counter (Heatran), however, other bulky Fire types can beat it. Somewhat on the fence about this one, though leaning towards "ban".
Deoxys-S: To be completely honest, I'm still trying to figure out who decided this seemed like it should be on the first line of suspects. With Genesect, Mega Lucario, Mega Pinsir, Talonflame, Aegislash, Azumarill, and Mega Venusaur running around, most people don't even bother considering it in teambuilding. While it can guarantee momentum, the same could be said of Deo-D, Smeargle, Mew, and just about anything with a good support movepool and the ability to hold a Focus Sash. The whole "scarfer without the scarf" thing, I get, but frankly it's just weak and can hardly put a dent in common bulky mons. If having a pseudo-Scarf was that bad, Victini should be up here for having a pseudo-Band in V-Create, or Porygon-Z for having pseudo-specs in its Adaptability and Download abilities.
I'm not going to make suspect reqs., but just to throw in my thoughts.
Mega-Lucario needs to be banned from OU, for reasons that most other posters in this thread have mentioned. I'll add that I find Mega-Lucario to be a very boring Mega-evolution, as it's just strictly better than Lucario, being faster, stronger and with one of the best offensive abilities in the game. There's no reason not to mega-evolve immediately, while with many of the other mega-evolutions, the original pokemon has certain features that aren't completely overshadowed by the Mega-evolution, such as a faster speed, a different typing or an alternative, useful ability (Moxie, Intimidate, Magic Guard etc.).
Genesect is also pretty broken. If only U-turn/Volt-Switch forced you to select your switch immediately...
I don't want Deoxys-S to go in this suspect test. The metagame will be shaken up enough with Mega-Lucario, and possibly Genesect gone, so it definitely needs further testing. I'm not sure that it needed to be included in this suspect test either, as imo it's less powerful than some of the other pokemon not being suspect tested, and going by the current usage statistics, it's only on 2.56% of teams/69th on the January OU usage rankings, and isn't currently popular enough to determine whether or not it's unhealthy for the OU metagame.
Mega-Lucario needs to be banned from OU, for reasons that most other posters in this thread have mentioned. I'll add that I find Mega-Lucario to be a very boring Mega-evolution, as it's just strictly better than Lucario, being faster, stronger and with one of the best offensive abilities in the game. There's no reason not to mega-evolve immediately, while with many of the other mega-evolutions, the original pokemon has certain features that aren't completely overshadowed by the Mega-evolution, such as a faster speed, a different typing or an alternative, useful ability (Moxie, Intimidate, Magic Guard etc.).
Genesect is also pretty broken. If only U-turn/Volt-Switch forced you to select your switch immediately...
I don't want Deoxys-S to go in this suspect test. The metagame will be shaken up enough with Mega-Lucario, and possibly Genesect gone, so it definitely needs further testing. I'm not sure that it needed to be included in this suspect test either, as imo it's less powerful than some of the other pokemon not being suspect tested, and going by the current usage statistics, it's only on 2.56% of teams/69th on the January OU usage rankings, and isn't currently popular enough to determine whether or not it's unhealthy for the OU metagame.
Stop saying that Genesect is broken!
Most of users used a Scarf Genesect, it choose only 1 move, so it can be check very easily! For example; Jellicent and Mega-Venusaur.
Most of users used a Scarf Genesect, it choose only 1 move, so it can be check very easily! For example; Jellicent and Mega-Venusaur.
Except genesect is versatile as fuck and can all sorts of other things besides scarf u-turn spam?
No.
Staring at one set is like staring at the damn sun, you're blinding yourself. CB Genesect is also insanely powerful since it has a reason to run Iron Head (le fairy faec)/getting Extremespeed from that idiotic event. Gear Shift is great too, but not sure I'd elevate it to the same level of the other two sets. You can certainly run a counter to certain sets, but it is in Genesect's nature that you likely won't know which set you're up against until the damage has been done, which is basically what folks are also saying about Mega Lucario.
Mixed genesect is waay to powerful overall, and it's ability to be on any team without problems is ridiculous
Comparing Genesect with Lucario is outright ridiculous, what ever set it runs it is highly unlikely to sweep you through until the very late game
You're correct, and that isn't what I meant to imply. My apologies if my wording was unclear. All I meant to say was that they are similar in that they can cause severe damage to a team before you isolate what set it is they are running. The scale of the damage isn't really comparable though. Genesect is almost guaranteed to get 1-2 KOs against any given team, assuming the Genesect user doesn't have a metal plate in their skull, whereas one mistaken prediction facing a Mega Lucario could very easily result in your whole team getting swept.
Case of fight fire with fire, if there is one thing even the strongest teams can utterly break against is plain bad roll of the dice and losing their speed advantage.
The exact problem is too many people utterly disregard it because they're unable to perceive how it is overpowered, it is the type of support that forces people to build teams in a extremely restrictive way whilst remaining unpredictable and strong enough to continuously render most attempts to prepare for it ineffective and stealing momentum.
If there was anything both Deoxys-S&D forms proved back in Gen 5 was the lack of foresight and close minded mentality most players have of why something that doesn't sweep half your team can also be equally too much for an entire metagame simply because it sets up a win condition by continuously applying pressure . Now whether you can capitalize on it is another matter, but in that respect both Deoxys-S and Genesect are basically similar in their roles that they have too easy a time setting up win conditions and it is a role that has not changed at all between Generations making them equally if not more effective with stronger teammates to aid them now.
I don't know why some people think that the new generation has had no effect or a positive effect on Deoxys-S. Genesect is debatable, but Deoxys-S has definitely suffered this generation. Even with "stronger teammates", the opposing team can too use these teammates. What's new in this generation is priority, something that nullifies Deoxys-S and his great speed. Talonflame, Mawile, and especially Aegislash utterly scare Deoxys-S out. Deoxys-S, while still a great revenge killer, now faces competition from priority users. Hazards are easier to remove than ever in this generation, thanks to the defog buff, making Deoxys-S and his suicide lead set less appealing. You can still pull if off and if you run a hyper-offensive team, you can even use defog to gain more momentum, but it doesn't change the fact that now there's 2 ways to remove hazards. You can discourage defog (with bisharp) or flat-out stop it with taunt, but there's no denying that it's harder than ever to keep hazards on the field. The very defog buff has greatly discouraged stacking spikes because just one defog can ruin the 3 turns you dedicated to spikes.
1st,
2nd,
I disagree with all of the claims that Deoxys-S is broken as an offensive pokemon. It's good, maybe even great, but not broken. It's Atk and SpA don't hit anything hard enough, its STAB is a joke, and priority outspeeds it, so while its a fantastic revenge killer, I personally find it comparable to Mega Alakazam, who is probably Game Freak's biggest troll this gen. If I vote to ban (I still haven't quite made up my mind on this one), it'll be because of the consistent hazards mixed with its offensive pressure. I'd kinda like to see what it'd be like without Genesect around, as well as get through a couple other suspect tests, but I almost agree to a ban and I don't want to waste time later testing it again.
Shit like this needs to stop. Between things like scarf, Ebelt, and shift gear, people who flat out say Genesect isn't broken even a little just are blind. I'm okay with people arguing against a ban, but you can't just say it isn't broken without addressing everyone's complaints. This thread had less than the last few ban discussions, but all posts should contribute to the topic, and this one didn't
2nd,
I disagree with all of the claims that Deoxys-S is broken as an offensive pokemon. It's good, maybe even great, but not broken. It's Atk and SpA don't hit anything hard enough, its STAB is a joke, and priority outspeeds it, so while its a fantastic revenge killer, I personally find it comparable to Mega Alakazam, who is probably Game Freak's biggest troll this gen. If I vote to ban (I still haven't quite made up my mind on this one), it'll be because of the consistent hazards mixed with its offensive pressure. I'd kinda like to see what it'd be like without Genesect around, as well as get through a couple other suspect tests, but I almost agree to a ban and I don't want to waste time later testing it again.
Keep in mind that people on lower rungs of the ladder are only going to see Scarf Genesect, so it's no wonder why their judgement on it will be so foggy. They haven't played high enough into the ladder to see Band, Expert Belt, Shift Gear, etc. on a consistent basis, or in some cases at all.
Mega Lucario needs go to. It's as simple as that. If M-Luke could only go Physical or only go Special, I'd vote for it to go OU, however the fact that it hits from both sides of the spectrum is ridiculous. I'm not comfortable letting something that 2HKOs half the meta stay OU, even though I love its design. Other pokemon, such as Garchomp, Dragonite and Scizor are powerful, but all have discernable counters. Mega Lucario doesn't have the same difficulty as them coming in and nuking everything. Steel/Fighting typing protects it from all common forms of priority, requiring you to not only outspeed, but be able to survive a +2 Extremespeed/Vacuum Wave/Bullet Punch.
My thoughts on Genesect largely remain the same: it's not completely broken, but the pressure it puts on teams is too much, and it's too easy to grab continuous momentum with little difficulty. I lean more towards Uber for him.
Deoxys-S invalidates Scarf pokemon, has no difficulty getting up hazards, has decent bulk, a great movepool, and when combo'd with Bisharp makes a deadly HO team capable of taking out a large slice of an opponent's team. I would rather this get its own suspect test, because I feel like when people are only seeing the extremes of this suspect test and people are really underestimating Deoxys. "Deoxys is broken, but it's not Mega Lucario broken!" I just don't like the way the suspects were handled this time. I feel like we could have a better discussion on a certain pokemon if we did them one at a time, but I see why it was done.
My thoughts on Genesect largely remain the same: it's not completely broken, but the pressure it puts on teams is too much, and it's too easy to grab continuous momentum with little difficulty. I lean more towards Uber for him.
Deoxys-S invalidates Scarf pokemon, has no difficulty getting up hazards, has decent bulk, a great movepool, and when combo'd with Bisharp makes a deadly HO team capable of taking out a large slice of an opponent's team. I would rather this get its own suspect test, because I feel like when people are only seeing the extremes of this suspect test and people are really underestimating Deoxys. "Deoxys is broken, but it's not Mega Lucario broken!" I just don't like the way the suspects were handled this time. I feel like we could have a better discussion on a certain pokemon if we did them one at a time, but I see why it was done.
I don't see how Genesect with sets other than scarf, despite less so for the band one, are not inferior options though. Requiring the element of surprise to function is not something to be called broken by any mean.
Gensect with scarf is probably ban worthy depending on how much the meta decides to embrace voltturn, but if we take away the scarf......, well it is simply nowhere close to uber.
Btw, it is not an appreciated manner to boldly assume others being noobs I guess.
Last edited:
Expert Belt Genesect can wallbreak and destroy a lot of common defensive cores that Choice Scarf variants cannot. Shift Gear and Rock Polish sets have the potential to sweep. Choice Band has an insanely powerful U-turn and can revenge kill with Extreme Speed.
If you don't think its other sets are viable, then you deserve to be called a noob because you clearly lack the metagame knowledge to see why they are as effective as they are. Scarf Genesect is the set that I fear the least when I see it in Team Preview because until the end of the game, all it does is spam U-turn or revenge kill shit, things that other Pokemon are perfectly capable of doing quite easily. The real fear is "should I even switch out here because if I don't and it sets up, I lose, but if I stay in on an Expert Belt +1 Energy Ball, I'm going to lose my Rotom-W, or if it's Band, that U-turn is actually going to hurt" and shit like that.
If you don't think its other sets are viable, then you deserve to be called a noob because you clearly lack the metagame knowledge to see why they are as effective as they are. Scarf Genesect is the set that I fear the least when I see it in Team Preview because until the end of the game, all it does is spam U-turn or revenge kill shit, things that other Pokemon are perfectly capable of doing quite easily. The real fear is "should I even switch out here because if I don't and it sets up, I lose, but if I stay in on an Expert Belt +1 Energy Ball, I'm going to lose my Rotom-W, or if it's Band, that U-turn is actually going to hurt" and shit like that.
Obviously, but we're talking about the brokeness of Pokemon in general, not specific sets. Choice Scarf is so predictable on Genesect (and for good reason) that a lot of trainers will do do something like, say, switch out of Gyarados into Ferrothorn and get it hit by Thunderbolt, only to then to realise that it actually has Expert Belt and goes for Flamethrower. Alternative sets and versalitity are to be taken into account, even if one set generally stands out. In fact, the more one set is used, the more the others are viable, due to the element of surprise.
Edit : Greninja'd, to some extent.
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked
- Locked
