np: SM UU Stage 4.1 - Shine [Weavile & Gardevoir-Mega banned]

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#54
Alright, time for a big question.

Do you, as a player, like the state of UU as a whole?

Right now, the trend seems to be 'run xyz bulky mon or scarfer or other thing that takes a hit and check weavile.' Fine, fine, we're talking about how Weavile might not be broken. Who knows, it might not be. But does it improve the metagame? Does it make UU more rewarding to play, as a spectator or player?

Look at the metagame trends. Right now, the two dominant types of teams seem to be either Voltturn or Stall. Alright, cool, the metagame follows natural, organic trends. But then looking at the composition of these teams, it's all the same thing. Why? Because it's effective at stopping Weavile, Gardevoir, and ostensibly, Mega Latias, while bringing thier own Weavile, Gardevoir, and Mega Latias into play, at least on Voltturn. Yes, Weavile is frail, rocks weak, all this stuff. But in all honesty, people seem easily forgetting that something not being broken doesn't mean it needs to stay, especially if it's degrading the metagame.

Ask yourself if UU is fun to play anymore. Weavile is a part of the problem, here. SmashBrosBrawl called it way back when freaking Buzzwole was in UU. Weavile, Mega Gardevoir, and Mega Latias are making the tier less rewarding to play. If I wasn't stuck on a phone, I'd be voting ban, just to start the process of making UU a metagame that might be fun to play again.
 
#55
If I wasn't stuck on a phone, I'd be voting ban
If you could even get reqs, that is.

I don't know whereabouts you are on the ladder, but I play a lot of games myself, and I really haven't noticed the increase in stall teams that much, in fact, I feel like stall has been in decline in high ladder. Volt-turn has become a bit more common, but that's because Rotom-W and Mega Manetric are pretty anti-meta right now and just good in general. These two playstyles have always been strong, regardless of whether Weavile, Gardevoir and Mega-Latias is there or not.

"Fun" is entirely subjective, using it as a pro-ban argument is really picking on low-hanging fruits and rather weak, don't you think? I think the meta is more fun with Weavile in it, but hey, that's just my opinion.
 
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#56
I really believe that most people plays specific tiers because they are fun to play. ( So do I. ) And believe me a meta that heavily relies on prediction is neither healthy nor fun to play. I bet if you ask any UU player , majority will prefer clef meta over this.

Weavile itself is a powerful pokemon with its amazing speed tier, good offensive capability, forces you to play extra carefully due to pursuit trapping and knockoff.
Just seeing weavile in enemy team puts you to stress already that you know you have to play way more serious to not lose your mons to it ( Namely latias, garde and a few more mons ) . Besides, it has been stated many times that weavile itself is not strong , it has decent checks and counters in the tier. Problem here is the support weavile provides to its team.

Similar suspect test to this was Gen 6 's sablenite suspect for ou. Mega sableye was not broken, was also checked by top tier threats on OU which are mega lopunny, clefable, mega altaria and about 10 more pokemons. It even had 6% usage but it got banned because it was unhealthy and was unfun to play against. ( Meaning mons doesnt have to be broken to be banworthy). Weavile is the same in 1 aspect which is its existence in voltturn teams. Voltturn is quite popular and dominant playstyle because mmane rotom and scizor are just too good, giving weavile nearly free and desirable switchins depends of situation and constantly force you to switch.
 
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#57
I'm honestly more of the mindset that Weavile, while not doing the meta any favors, isn't the main issue with UU right now. I never had much of a problem with it before the drops and I see it's current unhealthy effect on the tier more of a byproduct of the trends going on right now, VoltTurn and the rather busted Megas running around being the main culprits behind this.
That said I'm not against the idea of nipping this thing in the bud before it can cause any more issues later down the road.

As for the whole fun thing.
While I can agree that it's not a terribly strong argument one way or the other, I don't believe it's something to outright ignore when it comes to bans since there wouldn't be much point to balancing a tier if nobody wants to play it. And right now, UU isn't really something I want to spend my free time on.
 
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#58
Feels like people are forgetting that just because something isn’t broken, doesn’t mean it isn’t unhealthy. Yes, Weavile has checks, and the majority of them are revenge killing Weavile, not just straight up KOing it off right off the bat.

The impact Weavile has just from team preview immediately makes it a threat. Weavile doesn’t need a KO to benefit a team. It simply can just knock off the items of the mons of the opposing team, leading the way for a teammate to clean house. It can also serve as a potent revenge killer as well. Let me preach this again: Weavile’s “checks” and “counters”
are:
1: Crippled by having its item knocked off
2:Can only switch into one Knock Off and be revenge killed later by Ice Shard.
3: or just outright KO’d if it tries to beat it 1v1


Also saying Weavile is weak to rocks, is a very shaky argument. It’s usage on VoltTurn Teams lets it come in freely as many times as it wants.

Weavile may not be the reason UU is bad now but it’s definitely a part of the problem.
 
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#59
Ban knock off.
To avoid making this a one liner, i personally am on the fence both sides have got good arguements but theres 1 thing that rly annoys me and that is people saying "it only needs to knock off an item to benefit a team" this imo is very unclear because Weavile is NOT the only knock user in the tier.
 
#60
Ban knock off.
To avoid making this a one liner, i personally am on the fence both sides have got good arguements but theres 1 thing that rly annoys me and that is people saying "it only needs to knock off an item to benefit a team" this imo is very unclear because Weavile is NOT the only knock user in the tier.
Weavile is doing a lot more damage than most any other knock off user in the tier. Its great base attack stat, likely coupled with life orb or choice band, means that there's basically nothing that enjoys switching in on a weavile knock off and a mon that stays in will likely be setup fodder or free momentum for Weavile's team. Being able to do this without setting up and often forcing a switch anyways thanks to Weavile's fantastic offensive typing is part of what makes me think Weavile is unhealthy in this tier. Knock off by itself is a decently strong move that has a great side-effect, but Weavile is the only pokemon that has the speed and power to really make it a crippling threat.
 

Tony

:blobhammer:
is a Tournament Directoris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
Moderator
#61
So I've been building and testing a bunch of teams for the prestigious Smogon Snake Draft tournament, and I gotta say that I really wanna ban this thing. In fact, reading through the posts in this thread has been kind of worrying, because I had hoped for a more unanimous "ban Weavile" movement. :c

Weavile abuses the two most broken attacking moves in competitive 'mons to absolute perfection. Having both Knock Off and Pursuit in combination with its speed and power is downright unfair, especially when you take into account how trappable of a metagame UU is at the moment. Weavile's lack of bulk or usable resistances don't limit its ability to come into play, either. Like DrReuniclus already mentioned earlier in this thread, Volt-Turn is extremely effective right now and Weavile is a perfect fit for those types of teams. Switch your Latias into a Rotom-W's or Manectric-Mega's Volt Switch, and it's gone. Force a window for an effective double switch and back he is. Unlike Tyranitar in OU, for example, Weavile is really fast as well, which makes it significantly harder to deal with. Your 'mon doesn't even have to be weak to Dark-type attacks for it to be prone to Weavile's trapping mindgames, as seen in this SSD game between Pearl and HT (turn 3). Note that 'mons like Gardevoir-Mega and Nihilego cannot stomach a neutral Icicle Crash/Knock Off whatsoever, meaning they too risk getting trapped by Pursuit. 'Would be counter' Cobalion can't stomach a Life Orb Icicle Crash into Low Kick, either, which means you have to actually pivot around at the risk of getting predicted correctly. Or run a Chople Berry for just Weavile, like HT did vs. Pearl. HT still lost his Gardevoir and half of his Cobalion in the process.

I don't like Weavile in UU whatsoever and I consider banning it to be a big step in the right direction. In fact, I'd go as far as saying that not banning it means giving up on UU's development until the new games arrive entirely. If you're unsure, please watch the UU games from SSD and see for yourself how unrelenting this thing really is. 'Playing around' a threat is literally impossible when the concerning threat packs Pursuit. Ban Entei Weavile.
 

Hogg

grubbing in the ashes
is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
UU Leader
#62
Yeah, I've definitely come around with my own thoughts on Weavile. While I always found the arguments that Weavile just applied too much pressure versus offense to be kind of dubious, and did not previously support a ban, this last tier shift has really rocketed up Weavile's viability in a way that makes it a big problem. If it was just a case of Weavile's four attacks set I'd say Weavile was a top mon and really threatening versus offense, but when you combine Weav's offensive potential with how insanely good Pursuit trapping is in this tier right now, it's just completely ridiculous.

Pursuit isn't exclusive to Weavile of course, but Weavile is far and away the most effective Pursuit trapper. It actually effectively threatens all the the things it is meant to trap and forces them out in a way that Krook or Alola-Muk could only dream of doing. Even better, it almost always remains a useful teamslot even outside of its role as a trapper, thanks to those incredible offenses, Speed and STABs. It has been a surprisingly long time since I've made a team without at least considering Weavile, and I rarely find it dead weight even against teams with reliable answers such as Klefki, Coba, Arcanine or bulky Scizor. For example, here in the finals of Hydreigon Cup against a team with defensive Arcanine and Scizor plus a couple of offensive checks in Mamoswine and Empoleon, it still managed to come in and checkmate the opposing team's Latias and pave the way for my own Mega-Latias to clean up late game.

VoltTurn has been brought up as a big part of why Weavile is so effective lately, but that's just a part of it. The recent meta overloaded the tier with really big threats such as Mega-Gardevoir and Mega-Latias, and it is incredibly difficult to reliably counter everything in the tier right now. Most teams cannot afford to stack checks to common threats without in turn becoming weak to something else. While Weavile rarely sweeps most teams, its ability to consistently punch holes in defensive cores while still remaining a major threat versus offense has become really overwhelming given the current state of the meta.

I know I've been on the fence previously, but I plan to vote ban on Weavile this time around.
 

Amaroq

Avatar courtesy of DrReuniclus
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
#63
I've heard some concern about the possibility that the council's decision to unban Weavile and then eventually resuspect it represents inconsistency and would like to clarify a few things for those who may be missing some context. When Weavile was unbanned, the meta was considerably less friendly to it. The loss of Buzzwole and Conkeldurr, two of its most consistent checks, did play some part in making the meta more favorable to Weavile, but it is my opinion that the major change that made it unhealthy and broken was the recent tier shift. This shift both brought a number of new Pokemon that Weavile can threaten and provided the meta with more tools to mitigate Weavile's weaknesses. Weavile has always been held back by its frailty and poor defensive typing and has struggled to come in safely as a result, but the availability of Volt Switch and U-turn makes it much easier to bring Weavile onto the field at minimal risk. Pokemon like Rotom-W and Mega Manectric also lure in Pokemon like (Mega) Latias and Hydreigon that Weavile can threaten, in addition to checking common Weavile answers like Cobalion, Scizor, Suicune, and other bulky Steel- and Water-types. Additionally, Weavile is so good at taking advantage of new, extremely threatening Mega Evolutions like Mega Gardevoir, Mega Latias, and Mega Altaria while still providing counterplay to old threats like Mega Aerodactyl, Mega Sceptile, Mega Pidgeot, and Mega Beedrill that it's never dead weight. I'll be voting Ban.
 
#64
I see a lot of arguments to ban Weavile overall include:
  • The fact that Weavile has a fair number of checks and counters doesn't stop it's role in making many games come down to 50/50 traps, which even if not overpowered, is still unhealthy
  • Weavile augments Volt-Turn since Volt-Turn gives it easy switchins while Weavile can pretty easily spam moves
  • Knock Off removing items and the large number of threats in UU make Weavile's checks and counters unreliable
If that's a fair characterization of the arguments to ban Weavile, I'm not convinced and will still vote no ban.

The first point is the most convincing to me and makes me think I might change my mind later. But I did what Tony asked and looked at replays and I am not so sure Weavile is reliable enough to be broken. It's a 50/50 for trapping a Pokemon, not a 50/50 for setting up a game breaking sweep. And it would not be complete to mention the fact that everything Weavile traps can also kill Weavile if the Weavile user mispredicts.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7uu-320031 Hantsuki's Weavile doesn't do much part remove a Scizor's Leftovers, despite the fact that it had its counter in Scizor removed by a misprediction. teal's Scizor does much more but only after a very large amount of team support in removing Klefki, Swampert and weakening the rest of the team. This game best reflects the 3rd point but I'd argue Weavile itself is only doing great work here, not broken work. It still needs support to break through.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7uu-321424 Neither Weavile does anything much of note, despite both teams giving it Volt-Turn support to come in and both teams having clear targets to trap or spam attacks on. This replay is not evidence Weavile is broken.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7uu-321424 Some posters have said Weavile breaks walls but in this game Pak had trouble even though he made many good predictions with Pursuit Choice Band. This highlights one flaw of Choice Band Pursuit, the wall can switch right back in usually to try and heal since Weavile has to lock itself on a weak move. It only got a kill by luck on turn 84. bugzinator's Weavile had a presence too but it could hardly be seen as broken, all it does is check various stallbreakers.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7uu-321497 All McMeghan's Weavile did was trap a 50% Latias Mega and kill a 50% burned Doublade. It was clear other surprising sets like Rest Feraligatr and Will-o-Wisp Infernape contributed to the win. The play with Infernape U-Turning while it looked like it could be Choice locked on Close Combat was key. There was no unhealthy 50/50 mindgames here.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7uu-320021 I already talked about this one but Manipulative's Weavile is unable to successfully trap a threatening Nihilego until it's too late because the fear of KOing back, going back to the idea Pursuit trapping is not an easy task.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7uu-321035 Hax sort of ruins this game so Weavile isn't even needed to win by the end.

Those were all the Weavile games for this post Jirachi metagame. I don't see a metagame filled with unhealthy 50/50s. I certainly don't see, and to be sure nobody has really argued this, a metagame where Weavile constantly threatens to sweep.

What I do see is a stale, Volt-Turn centric metagame that sometimes uses Weavile on its cores, but not always and not always effectively.

Many people have noted Volt-Turn's impact on the tier and have made serious arguments linking Weavile to Volt-Turn. I totally agree Volt-Turn has a negative impact on the tier but banning Weavile to fix this is an approach I don't understand. Scizor is obviously a much more integral part of the core and sees incredibly high amounts of usage. Pearl said Weavile beats many Volt-Turn checks but I don't see evidence for it and I doubt banning Weavile will help this Volt-Turn issue because the Volt-Turn issue is arising from the fact that 2 of the top Pokemon in the tier have near perfect synergy and fit on the best style. They just happen to also have Volt-Turn in their arsenal (Rotom Wash and Scizor by the way). Their perfect synergy won't be affected by Weavile so I caution against these kind of arguments.

TL,DR

The 50/50 traps don't happen that much and when they do the Weavile user is at risk and even if successful it doesn't guarantee a sweep. The fact that teammates help increase Weavile's power shouldn't be an argument for its brokeness, its an argument that it needs support. And Weavile being banned won't help the Volt-Turn issue because Scizor + Rotom Wash have perfect synergy and top tiered viability independent of Weavile.

upload_2017-10-10_0-22-28.png
 

dingbat

ban all garden sneks
is a Tiering Contributor
#65
My tl;dr and somewhat elaborated thoughts on this current meta:

1) I echo the common sentiment that this meta has gone to complete shit.
2) Weavile needs to go.
3) Mega Gardevoir and Mega Latias also need to go.

You know this meta has gone to complete shit when everyone and their mothers are slapping this piece of shit pokemon Klefki onto every team because how the fuck else are you supposed to effectively fit checks to these over-centralizing threats? In effect, this meta has literally become a volt-turn + status + spike-spamming shitstorm that has become so cancerous and demotivating to the point where I also started running shit like Toxic Klefki + Gliscor on all of my teams just to maintain some sort of comfort zone. There's little room for creativity outside of, well, creating stupid sets with stupid shit just to fuck up the other stupid shit in this tier haha

I'm not going to address my second point because that's not really what I care about the most right now, but I still think Weavile is a cancer to this tier.

The real concern I have right now is the status of Mega Garde/Latias in this tier; I would like to see both Mega Garde and Mega Latias nuked from this tier as well. A ton of people have been bitching about the former and I could not agree any more that Mega Garde puts a huge stranglehold on teambuilding, but while the latter seems more low-key, Mega Latias abuses this meta equally as much, if not more than Mega Garde does. When you combine a stupid level of bulk that even Suicune would be jealous of with uninvested power that nearly matches that of its base form, you have something that is not only capable of completely dictating any given match regardless of the opponent's team archetype, but nine times out of ten, any singular matchup plays into your hands because if your opponent isn't actively scouting for potential moves, then chances are you're going to lose a ton of momentum because he/she failed to take into account the 10+ moves that Mega Latias could be running; the three things that can consistently switch in and 1v1 are Mega Gardevoir, Play Rough/Toxic Klefki, and Alolan Muk while the very latter is the truest counter to Mega Latias. Sure, each moveset is going to have its own separate issues versus other select groups of threats, but one example of this case I desperately want to mention that happened during the suspect test is the number of times where my opponents have switched Scizor into my Mega Latias only to lose it to Hidden Power Fire; I found it so fucking alarming that I feel that players are just plain ignorant about Mega Latias' overarching capabilities in this metagame. In essence, I don't think many people realize how toxic of a presence Mega Latias is in this tier and I feel that this is also an issue that absolutely cannot be ignored.
 
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#66
I definitively agree with dingbat ! Gardevoir-Mega and Latias-Mega are insane and because of their presence in Underused, Weavile is busted and incredible, because it just nuke them. I truly think we would've been focus on Gardevoir-Mega / Latias-Mega before Weavile.

Basically Gardevoir-Mega in one of the Pokemon in Underused Which can spam the most easily is STAB. Hypervoice is freaking brainless and just too powerfull. Furthermore, even if is physical bulk sucks, Gardevoir-Mega is almost impossible to OHKO on the special plan, I mean lol :

+1 252 SpA Latias Gigavolt Havoc (185 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gardevoir-Mega: 206-243 (74.3 - 87.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Primarina Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gardevoir-Mega: 204-240 (73.6 - 86.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Manectric-Mega Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gardevoir-Mega: 117-138 (42.2 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO


Gardevoir-Mega @ Gardevoirite
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psyshock
- Hyper Voice
- Will-O-Wisp / Taunt / Calm Mind / Shadow Ball / Substitute
- Hidden Power [Fire] / Taunt / Calm Mind / Shadow Ball / Substitute

I even seen people run Wish / Protect Gardevoir-Mega.. Come on.. ban this thing already..


And in the other hand we have our great dragon : Latias-Mega which is even more unpredictable. It can run Bulky CM set with absolutely every freaking offensive move or even Offensive CM which I talk about sooner on the thread. Virtually impossible to OHKO because of is amazing Bulk.
 
#67
I apologize if this post isn't as amazing as others before it; I try to stay away from suspect threads in hopes of not looking too stupid lol.

My main issues with Weavile have been echoed by many: Knock Off is a dumb move that really hinders many of Weavile's checks (bulky Water-types typically hate losing their item), Pursuit trapping for Weavile in specific is really, really strong right now because of how effectively Weavile does it along with how threatening the 50/50s Weavile forces are, and how, I believe, the difficulty in bringing in Weavile is greatly overstressed.

I'll start with the last point because I don't feel I need to repeat too much of what has been said, but with Volt-Turn being so damn common and Weavile practically a staple on it (if you aren't running it on Volt-Turn now I implore you to because it's reeeeally good lol), it makes switching in Weavile much less of a problem. I understand Weavile is extremely hazard weak and commonly seen with Life Orb which doesn't really benefit its longevity, but I feel the benefits really outweigh the positives.

Knock Off is dumb. Gen 6 was a bad idea. Please remove Knock Off from the game. Seriously though, Pokemon such as Klefki and Swampert don't love losing their only form of self-sustain which only makes them less-consistent of checks/counters to Weavile.

Lastly, I want to address how potent of a Pursuit-trapper Weavile is in comparison to others in the tier. Weavile is likely the most punished Pursuit-trapper in the tier when not predicting correctly (disregarding Krookodile imo) because of its fragility; however, I would make the argument it applies the most pressure to get the 50/50s correct. Look at the most common Pursuit-trappers outside of Weavile: Krookodile, A-Muk, and perhaps M-Aero. When looking at former (M-Aero's Pursuit I find to be the least threatening, but feel free to correct me here), I definitely see the most risk when trying to trap with Krook. Locking yourself into Pursuit with Krook (pretty sure Krook still runs Scarf most commonly) already sucks to have to do even if you get a successful trap, as it invites in a number of Pokemon that can abuse something locked into a weak move such as Pursuit; however, failing to get that prediction correct now leaves you likely losing your Krookodile with even less chance for counterplay. When compared to Weavile, simply the ability to switch up moves is constraining enough. I'm not locked into some shitty 40 BP move with Weavile if I successfully trap something. And again, let me address simply how potent Weavile is in these regards: being able to trap threats such as M-Garde, Starmie, Latias, etc. while at the same time threatening them all with an OHKO by using another move of yours without being setup fodder like Krook is is really fucking good. Yes, Pokemon such as Klefki and Suicune can abuse Weavile still. But I would much rather have to deal with a Suicune wanting to Calm Mind up that I can pressure effectively in the current meta compared to a Crawdaunt or an SD Scizor coming in and guaranteeing something else geting nuked on my team the next turn.

Again, my apologies if this is a shitpost. I tried my best. :[
 
#68
I apologize if this post isn't as amazing as others before it; I try to stay away from suspect threads in hopes of not looking too stupid lol.

My main issues with Weavile have been echoed by many: Knock Off is a dumb move that really hinders many of Weavile's checks (bulky Water-types typically hate losing their item), Pursuit trapping for Weavile in specific is really, really strong right now because of how effectively Weavile does it along with how threatening the 50/50s Weavile forces are, and how, I believe, the difficulty in bringing in Weavile is greatly overstressed.

I'll start with the last point because I don't feel I need to repeat too much of what has been said, but with Volt-Turn being so damn common and Weavile practically a staple on it (if you aren't running it on Volt-Turn now I implore you to because it's reeeeally good lol), it makes switching in Weavile much less of a problem. I understand Weavile is extremely hazard weak and commonly seen with Life Orb which doesn't really benefit its longevity, but I feel the benefits really outweigh the positives.

Knock Off is dumb. Gen 6 was a bad idea. Please remove Knock Off from the game. Seriously though, Pokemon such as Klefki and Swampert don't love losing their only form of self-sustain which only makes them less-consistent of checks/counters to Weavile.

Lastly, I want to address how potent of a Pursuit-trapper Weavile is in comparison to others in the tier. Weavile is likely the most punished Pursuit-trapper in the tier when not predicting correctly (disregarding Krookodile imo) because of its fragility; however, I would make the argument it applies the most pressure to get the 50/50s correct. Look at the most common Pursuit-trappers outside of Weavile: Krookodile, A-Muk, and perhaps M-Aero. When looking at former (M-Aero's Pursuit I find to be the least threatening, but feel free to correct me here), I definitely see the most risk when trying to trap with Krook. Locking yourself into Pursuit with Krook (pretty sure Krook still runs Scarf most commonly) already sucks to have to do even if you get a successful trap, as it invites in a number of Pokemon that can abuse something locked into a weak move such as Pursuit; however, failing to get that prediction correct now leaves you likely losing your Krookodile with even less chance for counterplay. When compared to Weavile, simply the ability to switch up moves is constraining enough. I'm not locked into some shitty 40 BP move with Weavile if I successfully trap something. And again, let me address simply how potent Weavile is in these regards: being able to trap threats such as M-Garde, Starmie, Latias, etc. while at the same time threatening them all with an OHKO by using another move of yours without being setup fodder like Krook is is really fucking good. Yes, Pokemon such as Klefki and Suicune can abuse Weavile still. But I would much rather have to deal with a Suicune wanting to Calm Mind up that I can pressure effectively in the current meta compared to a Crawdaunt or an SD Scizor coming in and guaranteeing something else geting nuked on my team the next turn.

Again, my apologies if this is a shitpost. I tried my best. :[
I think that Knock Off, while good, should not be removed from the game. (Lol)
However, I agree with most of your points. Especially the part about Pursuit.


Also, someone said that the main reason Weavile was so good is because it could counter Latias - M well.
I think that by banning Weavile, Latias - M will become way too strong, and it will have to be banned too.
 
#69
Scizor @ Buginium Z
Ability: Technician
EVs: 232 HP / 88 Def / 188 Spe (creep more if you want)
Jolly Nature
- U-turn
- Swords Dance
- Bullet Punch
- Roost

This set is pretty fire, with running a kind off bulky fast scizor youre able to kill two birds with stone with the use of the Z. You can lure Rotom the +2 Z move coupled with the speed creep. Rotom sets that run the normal amount of speed (about 44) get OHKOd clean or after rocks. You can also check Weav, unboosted Banded Knock 3hko's with the given spread.
 
#70
I decided to share the teams I used for getting reqs because they're really fun and I love when people use my teams. I think that the teams show really well how the metagame is right now, which is why I decided to post them here and not somewhere else.

For the importable, just click on the sprites.



Sharpedo SpikeStack (1000ELO~1200ELO)

I wanted quick wins. Nothing too special here, just a bunch of broken Pokémon who work nicely together. I found out that SD Low Kick Weavile is pretty nice for luring heavy steels who counter Mega-Sharpedo and Scizor.



Mega Gardevoir VoltTurn (1200ELO~1300ELO)

A really fun team built around Mega Gardevoir + Weavile. It also features pretty common Pokémon such as Infernape and Rotom-W for VoltTurn and Dragonium Z Latias because it's really good right now. Nidoqueen is quite an unorthodoxed choice right now, but ever since VoltTurn became the most popular playstyle, its viability went up pretty well, as it has a great matchup against those archetypes.


Bastiodon Stall (1300ELO~1450ELO)

A pretty fun stall team featuring the great Bastiodon. I found out that Bastiodon works pretty well right now as it counters the biggest threats to stall; Non-Focus Blast Mega-Gardevoir, Togekiss, Non-Surf Latias and Mega-Latias. It also helps a ton against SubCM Chandelure which is usually really good against stall.
 
#71
After playing OU for a bit too much, I decided to try UU for a change and ladder for the first time since early ORAS. I might not be as experienced as others here, but I do think I got a good feel for the general idea of the tier. I took a look at some of the snake games after the Jirachi ban before laddering to see what worked and what didn't structure wise, and then built 3-4 teams until I found one that I felt comfortable with, which was a very standard VoltTurn one. I peaked 23 on the ladder until I ran into stall 3 times in a row and went on tilt, lol. Regardless, hopefully this is valuable input as someone who didn't know what was broken 2 weeks ago.

Ultimately, the problem is that Weavile's combination of strong attack + utility in Knock Off and Pursuit are problematic for the majority of the tier, especially when paired with VoltTurn. It's very easy to mention running something like keys or another steel to prevent Weavile from being problematic, but I simply don't see how this would help the meta, rather make it more stale than it already is. As it stands, it's not fun to play a tier which is infested by predominantly two strategies: VoltTurn and spike stacking. I might be regurgitating information already posted, but I wanted to look at what was mentioned below and actually give some examples that I encountered while laddering.

TL,DR

The 50/50 traps don't happen that much and when they do the Weavile user is at risk and even if successful it doesn't guarantee a sweep. The fact that teammates help increase Weavile's power shouldn't be an argument for its brokeness, its an argument that it needs support. And Weavile being banned won't help the Volt-Turn issue because Scizor + Rotom Wash have perfect synergy and top tiered viability independent of Weavile.
Even if said 50/50's don't happen as often as stated on paper, they still do happen, and I ran into the bottom 3 multiple times:

ex 1) My opponent, even with a steel type (usually Cobalion) in the back, would have their Latias out vs. my Weavile. I do think that what pif points out in that the Weavile user is at risk is true, but I don't think this is enough to counteract the unhealthy 50/50 present. If Weavile happens to be LO instead of CB and you correctly switch out on the Icicle Crash, for example, then you have to be weary about Low Kick because it will proceed to kill Cobalion. Now, you have to switch something else in to scout for Low Kick and risk another move coming your way (i.e you go Rotom-W while they Knock), or simply stay in hoping they don't click Low Kick. This is all risk/reward, but I don't think that these types of mindgames where one pokemon makes you have to scout several times is not beneficial to the meta and further constrains teambuilding.

ex 2) A lot of the times, my opponent would have their Mega Garde out vs my Weavile. You can already see the 50/50 in play here, but there is something deeper: I usually ran into these scenarios when playing against opposing VoltTurn teams (trying to get in Mega Garde healthy), and the moment you make an incorrect prediction because of Weavile and/or lose a mon, you're already losing the VoltTurn momentum battle by being a mon down. By losing the momentum battle, you find yourself in a very hard situation to dig out of, as your opponent will always have one more mon than you and can VoltTurn out into their breakers.

ex 3) I usually used Infernape as my scarfer of choice because it outspeeds most other scarfers and provides U-Turn momentum as well. Mons like Latias and Chandelure, both of which I ran into a lot and are problematic for Scizor+Rotom-W, were commonly switched in vs my Infernape. This meant getting a free U-Turn off and then - you guessed it - going to Weavile again, and then yet another 50/50 ensues.

Although the problem with VoltTurn itself isn't Weavile, like pif mentioned, Weavile definitely helps apply incredible pressure when paired with this core. The Latias example applies again: if you switch in your Latias vs a Volt from Rotom-W, and they play Scizor, then they have to fear HP Fire. However, with Weavile present, this ultimately makes getting rid of Latias (or whatever other mon you use to counter VoltTurn) that much easier while keeping your Scizor healthy in the back.

To briefly touch on the Weavile needing support part, I don't think this is bad at all. Every mon needs proper adequate support to function properly. Since I'm most acquainted with OU, I'll give Magearna as an example. Its sweeping capabilities are unparalled, as it can run SG + 3 atks or even double dance, and its movepool has expanded to more than Z-Fight + boltbeam, as even Z-Fairy and Z-Steel have seen decent usage to blast through would-be counters. This usually benefits the Magearna user, as if you're running say, dual stab, you know you want to build around getting rid of mons like Heatran. If your opponent stays in with Heatran having already seen Flash Cannon, they might proceed to get blown away by Z-Fight. The opponent is left on the back foot, trying to scout for Magearna's set instead of staying in with Heatran to not let their mons take too much damage beforehand. Now, I don't think that Weavile in itself is comparable to Magearna, but I do think they impose the same mentality on your opponent - one wrong prediction, and it opens up potential for not only Weavile itself, but the other mons on the team (like I mentioned before, trapping Latias or knocking off Rotom usually meant that my scarf Nape had a lot of fun). If anything, supporting Weavile isn't hard at all, since the aforementioned Scizor+Rotom-W are very easy to throw on a team due to their amazing synergy.

Interestingly enough, a situation arose in a match with teal6 on the ladder yesterday. We were both using standard VoltTurn teams until a turn (turn 3) came down to my Scizor vs his Gardevoir. Seeing as my team lacked a Gardevoir switch-in, the 50/50 came down to whether I would BP early on to pick Garde off, or U-Turn on the switch and bring in my Weavile to Knock something off. I proceeded to get both the 50/50 with Scizor and the following 50/50 with Weavile afterwards wrong, which meant an automatic loss for me. Is that really fun to play? A match shouldn't come down to two 50/50's in the first 4 turns of the battle. It wasn't exactly fun for me to jump into a tier for the first time governed with such a bland but dominant strategy like this for about 90% of games played.

Overall, I'm definitely going to have to agree that Weavile is unhealthy for the tier. I think that M-Garde and M-Lati are stupidly powerful and over-centralizing as well, as others before me have mentioned. I didn't really struggle as much with M-Garde, mostly because of 50/50's with my Weavile or Scizor that resulted in my opponent staying in on a CB Crash or BP. M-Lati, however, finds it increasingly easy to set up and at +2, anything that doesn't resist either SP or your coverage move (or with Toxic/T-Wave) is basically an automatic loss. People usually rely on steels as their answer to this, but it was extremely easy to just switch out Surf for HP Fire and destroy every Scizor that thought they could come in for free. I do think that this tier has potential, and banning Weavile is a step in the right direction.
 
#72
With the suspect coming to a close today, I wanted to share some final food for thought.

While I understand the ban argument about over-reliance on/forcing of 50/50's, I think you guys are wording it the wrong way. Specifically, I don't like the over-reliance of the word "fun" in the ban argument:

1) It's not "fun" if the game comes down to a bunch of 50/50's early game
2) It's not "fun" to play against VoltTurn

Fun in of itself is a VERY subjective term, and I do NOT think it constitutes to a strong standalone argument, ESPECIALLY when it comes to suspect tests

1) Personally, I don't like a game that comes down to more than 1 or 2 50/50's, but I'm OK if a couple pop up over the course of the match. As a long-time chess + blackjack player, I like the concept of trying to get inside my opponents head and read/predict what he might do based on his previous actions, or try to shake him up based on my previous actions.
2) If we are going to base an argument for Weavile on "Weavile supports/benefits from VoltTurn, and VoltTurn isn't fun", then by that logic why don't we suspect Blissey/Quagsire "because they are linchpins of stall and stall is not fun"

That being said, while I still don't think that Weavile is banworthy, I understand how it can be interpretted as non-competitive/unhealthy to the tier, and won't be flipping tables when if it gets banned.
 
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#73
So...it looks like I'm a little late on the posting train, but I'm finally getting off my lazy ass. As usual, upon the start of the suspect, I tend to keep an open mind about it regardless of my previous thoughts.

First of all, I'd like to acknowledge that most arguments that were previously used to push for unbanning Weavile still apply; it's still weak to rocks, it's still pretty frail, giving it no defensive utility whatsoever. However, the current metagame and its trends tilt it to a way where those arguments don't hold as much sway anymore. Now, when talking about a broken Pokemon, Weavile does not fall under the category of having no proper way to deal with it or just being way too powerful. Answers do exist, and frankly speaking, they're not that hard to fit onto teams, as explained by many people before, but dealing with it isn't that simple. Just having checks does not immediately invalidate Weavile's ability to put in work for a team, far from it in fact. I just think it's unhealthy from a battling perspective even if not so much from a team building perspective. I briefly mentioned here how Mega Gardevoir, Mega Altaria, and Klefki have turned into the main Fairy-types that people like to run on their teams. Klefki is a pretty decent switch-in to Weavile, although it'd be much better if it could actually paralyse it lol. Mega Gardevoir and Mega Altaria, on the other hand, give Weavile a lot of initiative by just using one of its STAB moves. The same goes for how Specs Hydreigon is becoming a lot more common than it used to where Scarf was everywhere, you hardly see Scarf Latias anymore, and offensive variants of Scizor are becoming more prevalent over bulky ones. I'm not saying Weavile can come in easily at all, but you also don't see some of these potential checks like Primarina, Sylveon (sorta), and bulky Scizor as much anymore. I'm not going to go with the whole "you can run x to check it so it's not banworthy" route, so I'll leave that point at that. There's a lot more to a Pokemon being banworthy than just its checks anyway.

On to something else, I feel like some people are misconceptualising some of Weavile's attributes, which is why a good part of this thread has been going in circles. We all know that Weavile has great Attack and Speed, but it's not overwhelmingly so and its defensive qualities make up for that. We also all know how great Pursuit trapping is in this meta, but this isn't something that only Weavile can do. Knock Off is a great move especially coming from something as strong as Weavile, but it's the same deal here. So yes, I'm setting the record straight for these. However, it's when these fit so well with great dual STAB offensive types and the priority in Ice Shard that it becomes the support powerhouse that it is, allowing it to gain the initiative needed to punch holes in teams. When it comes to the 50/50s of Pursuit, I honestly think those numbers are thrown about too much. In practice, it's usually a lot more of a mind game for the non-Weavile user than it is for the Weavile user. Weavile typically doesn't lose much in terms of momentum when it uses either one of its main STAB moves, esp with the metagame trends from earlier. In fact, Weavile doesn't even have to run Pursuit to cause these "50/50s". The threat of the move itself is already enough to really get into people's heads, as shown by one of the games Tony talked about. It's interesting to think about how even though prediction-reliant arguments typically fall flat on their faces, it's a lot more applicable in a situation here where the pressure to make a play is way higher on one side of the field. Contrast this with something like Scarf Krookodile where picking the right move is a lot more crucial in order to not get exploited. As far as VoltTurn goes, yeah I agree it's a pain in the ass to deal with regardless of whether Weavile is there or not, but it doesn't mean Weavile is healthy per se. The difference between the VoltTurn / Weavile relationship and Blissey / Quagsire one for stall that was brought up in the post above is by considering the other stuff mentioned above in addition to the team synergy. I'm not going to talk about how VoltTurn and Weavile synergise, but giving a Pokemon that's already such a good package even more initiative is really something that's pushing it over the top. If a lot of people really want to look at how VoltTurn can be made less of a problem afterwards, fine by me, but getting rid of Weavile is a good start to the multitude of big threats currently plaguing the tier, and just because VoltTurn is a big nuisance doesn't mean Weavile is excused. Overall, I just think Weavile is something that's making a lot of already big threats even scarier than they normally would be, which is never a good sign of something that should stick around.

As far as future suspects go, I'm personally more on board the Mega Gardevoir train if anything. I don't disagree with potentially suspecting Mega Latias; the former is just so much clearer to me in terms of its metagame impact (especially after Jirachi got the boot). Not much to say there that hasn't already been said.
 
#74
Weavile. I've been waiting for this guy to leave since the xurkitree meta. I've always struggled to cover him in my 3 wall cores. The way he stands in the shadows of psychic and ghost pokemon in this tier is absolutely ridiculous. His pursuit ohkoes offensive starmie from more or less full health, even without starmie switching out. Furthermore, Weavile's speed tier is absolutely ridiculous. He's the fastest Ice type in the game. Including megas. He outspeeds so much of the tier, and can pick off many faster pokemon with ice shard (Aerodactyl M,Sceptile,Crobat,Scarf Krook etc.). Maybe once the meta has settled down we can re suspect this beast, but for now, Weavile needs to take a vacation.

Rotom-Wash @ Waterium Z
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Volt Switch
- Thunderbolt/Thunder wave/Will-o-wisp
- Toxic/Thunder Wave/Will-o-wisp

Most people scoff at rotom. They say, "wow, Rotom, all I need is a grass type ". This may be true in a way, but what is Rotom's main purpose? To generate momentum. Meaning as your passive amoongus comes in, the opponent can send in whatever they want. Infernape with swords dance or nasty plot? Mamoswine to set up rocks? SD Gliscor, or the rare Double Dance Gliscor?Latias? The list goes on. The point is, even with your supposed counter, you havent stopped this guy from doing his real job. Generating momentum. This is where rotom shines. Although it is true that pokemon with u turn can do similar things, the fact that rotoms counters are very specific (passive special walls,Blisssey,Sylveon etc, or Grass types) means that dangerous pokemon such as offensive sd scizor, the above mentioned pokemon, and basically anything else, will get a free turn. If you want to stop this momentum, you have only 3 pokemon to choose from. Basically 2, since 2 of them are so similiar. First you have Gastrodon and Seismitoad. Differences? Gastrdon has healing, Seismitoad lacks it but has stealth rocks and knock off. Then you have Lanturn, who gets worn down easily, nobody uses it, and is just included because its a possible cuunter. Another point to consider is this. Gastrodon and Seismitoad can't hurt Rotom other than toxic. Rotom can also poison them with its own toxic. Also, rotom could easily, easily carry hp grass,Shutting down these 2 mometum stoppers, everybody bar Lanturn, who nobody uses. Now do you see the problem with rotom? To make matters worse, Rotom has levitate, meaning it can take pretty long to wear down if the opponent plays smart, especially in this spikes infested metagame. Finally the waterium Z. This waterium Z obliterates any obscure counters,(Volt Absorb Jolteon etc) and lets rotom tank knock offs quite comfortably. it can also blow away some bulky special walls after enough prior damage. After Latias M, and Gardevoir M, this guy should be the first to go. Seriously.
 
#75
Weavile. I've been waiting for this guy to leave since the xurkitree meta. I've always struggled to cover him in my 3 wall cores. The way he stands in the shadows of psychic and ghost pokemon in this tier is absolutely ridiculous. His pursuit ohkoes offensive starmie from more or less full health, even without starmie switching out. Furthermore, Weavile's speed tier is absolutely ridiculous. He's the fastest Ice type in the game. Including megas. He outspeeds so much of the tier, and can pick off many faster pokemon with ice shard (Aerodactyl M,Sceptile,Crobat,Scarf Krook etc.). Maybe once the meta has settled down we can re suspect this beast, but for now, Weavile needs to take a vacation.

Rotom-Wash @ Waterium Z
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Volt Switch
- Thunderbolt/Thunder wave/Will-o-wisp
- Toxic/Thunder Wave/Will-o-wisp

Most people scoff at rotom. They say, "wow, Rotom, all I need is a grass type ". This may be true in a way, but what is Rotom's main purpose? To generate momentum. Meaning as your passive amoongus comes in, the opponent can send in whatever they want. Infernape with swords dance or nasty plot? Mamoswine to set up rocks? SD Gliscor, or the rare Double Dance Gliscor?Latias? The list goes on. The point is, even with your supposed counter, you havent stopped this guy from doing his real job. Generating momentum. This is where rotom shines. Although it is true that pokemon with u turn can do similar things, the fact that rotoms counters are very specific (passive special walls,Blisssey,Sylveon etc, or Grass types) means that dangerous pokemon such as offensive sd scizor, the above mentioned pokemon, and basically anything else, will get a free turn. If you want to stop this momentum, you have only 3 pokemon to choose from. Basically 2, since 2 of them are so similiar. First you have Gastrodon and Seismitoad. Differences? Gastrdon has healing, Seismitoad lacks it but has stealth rocks and knock off. Then you have Lanturn, who gets worn down easily, nobody uses it, and is just included because its a possible cuunter. Another point to consider is this. Gastrodon and Seismitoad can't hurt Rotom other than toxic. Rotom can also poison them with its own toxic. Also, rotom could easily, easily carry hp grass,Shutting down these 2 mometum stoppers, everybody bar Lanturn, who nobody uses. Now do you see the problem with rotom? To make matters worse, Rotom has levitate, meaning it can take pretty long to wear down if the opponent plays smart, especially in this spikes infested metagame. Finally the waterium Z. This waterium Z obliterates any obscure counters,(Volt Absorb Jolteon etc) and lets rotom tank knock offs quite comfortably. it can also blow away some bulky special walls after enough prior damage. After Latias M, and Gardevoir M, this guy should be the first to go. Seriously.
LOL
 
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