Well from my experience I'm pretty shifted toward agreeing with ya on that. The physical sets never gave me TOO much trouble (Band V-Create is annoying to switch into however...) but the special set is the one that rocks everybody's socks off. However it definitely has its limitations, just a different brand from the ones of the physical one. Like you can't beat Umbreon and Snorlax unless you're lucky enough to nail them with a Focus Blast on the switch-in, and possibly with Rocks up, even at that. Otherwise...be grateful Umbreon at least doesn't carry Pursuit, lol.I find that victini is manageable as a physical set the special set is entirely different and iz harder to counter imo. Focus blast obliterates umbreon and snorlax and its bulk makes it difficult to revenge kill.
Well the issue with Roserade is it's MUCH easier to check than Froslass...And if you're running an offensive Roserade that sets up hazards, you have to forgo Spikes for Toxic Spikes (If you run Leaf Storm/Sleep Powder) due to incompatibility issues. And if you're using a defensive Spikes Roserade, you have to worry about the lack of Speed and offensive presence, which can often invite the foe's sweepers to come in on you. And then there's the issue of Roserade being slower than Froslass, having abysmal physical defense, lacking a suicidal move that forces mindgames, etc. etc. etc. blahblahFroslass is good but I really don't think it should be banned. It has only one style of play and if it continues to rise in popularity people will just use its counters more...
On a side note, Roserade is a much more versatile spiker with access to toxic spikes and a way better special attack stat allowing it to potentially sweep and set up spikes which is something Froslass can not do. Froslass is good at what it does but if Froslass is getting suspected it's kinda silly that Roserade wouldn't be as well and if Froslass was banned then people would just use Roserade ALL THE TIME.
Hey, you know what else has Taunt, Spikes, Destiny Bond, Pretty High speed, and great defensive typing? Qwilfish.Taunt + Spikes + Destiny Bond + High speed + Ghost Typing = Master of Spikes.
Qwilfish however, cannot spinblock for itself, nor does it make for a great pokemon to use on Offensive teams, since it slows them down to much, and in all reality, just begs for Blastoise to switch into it. Froslass can lay down spikes, die, and you can proceed to nuke everything on your opponents team with the 5 offensive pokemon you are running behind your suicide lead Froslass, the pressure making it very difficult for spinners to switch in and actually get a turn to spin. If you aren't running offensive lass then this is irrelevant because you can just spinblock for yourself.Hey, you know what else has Taunt, Spikes, Destiny Bond, Pretty High speed, and great defensive typing? Qwilfish.
Oh yeah, it also gets (and uses) Pain Split, Thunder Wave, Haze, Dualstab, Explosion, Toxic Spikes. Not to mention it doesn't lose to multihit moves, lives longer than three turns, and is used effectively as a lead and a wall. I'd call for a Qwilfish suspect, but it's sort of in RU. (hmm...)
One final thing. I see a lot of people saying that rapid spinners aren't something that make Froslass less effective because they're bad in UU.
Yes. That's true. Rapid spinners in UU are generally not very good. That doesn't mean they don't exist, though. Just like you can't argue that Froslass should be suspected for its underused bulky PainSplit set, you can't argue that rapid spinners in UU aren't a problem merely because they aren't good. Ambipom is a pile of shit as well, but it counters Froslass to hell and back with Beat Up.
This is a great point. Yes there are other spikers like Roserade and Qwilfish, but both of them aren't as useful on your standard offensive team as Froslass. Spikes Roserade is usually a bulky spread, while Qwilfish's niche is as a defensive Pokemon which doesn't complement a hyper offense team like Froslass does.Qwilfish however, cannot spinblock for itself, nor does it make for a great pokemon to use on Offensive teams, since it slows them down to much, and in all reality, just begs for Blastoise to switch into it. Froslass can lay down spikes, die, and you can proceed to nuke everything on your opponents team with the 5 offensive pokemon you are running behind your suicide lead Froslass, the pressure making it very difficult for spinners to switch in and actually get a turn to spin. If you aren't running offensive lass then this is irrelevant because you can just spinblock for yourself.
While I think spin blocking is an overrated Froslass quality mainly because it is a suicide lead and people don't send out spinners first, I do think that Froslass is quite good when the user is competent enough to use it. Good players can play mind games with the opponent with destiny bond/taunt/ice beam or shadow ball/spikes set. Froslass can usually either get at least 1 layer of spikes down then kill with DB or set up spikes all over a support lead and taunt them as well. I think that Froslass is a great pokemon but I really don't think its strategy always results in wins or is to dominating in the current meta.Qwilfish however, cannot spinblock for itself, nor does it make for a great pokemon to use on Offensive teams, since it slows them down to much, and in all reality, just begs for Blastoise to switch into it. Froslass can lay down spikes, die, and you can proceed to nuke everything on your opponents team with the 5 offensive pokemon you are running behind your suicide lead Froslass, the pressure making it very difficult for spinners to switch in and actually get a turn to spin. If you aren't running offensive lass then this is irrelevant because you can just spinblock for yourself.
First of all, there's a difference between not being used and being extremely terrible. Froslass's bulky set should absolutely be included in this argument it's really really good. If tyranitar for some miraculous reason dropped to the bottom of UU, we wouldn't not suspect it just because nobody uses it. IIRC, Gothitelle was not even in top 25 usage when we suspected it.
Second of all, we are not saying that spinners are irrelevant because they suck. We're saying spinners are irrelevant because they don't stop Froslass. Bulkylass can spinblock for itself, and offensivelass either has 5 pokemon that keep pressure on spinners, thus not allowing them to spin, or sometimes it runs stuff like OTR Cofagrigus to make extra sure that its spikes stay down. That's why they're irrelevant. Not because they suck, but because Froslass ends up accomplishing what it was supposed to accomplish anyways.
Ambipom hehehehehehehehehe (Assuming that they are carrying beat up which they should)I was thinking about this and I thought that a good thing to compare it to was the Deoxys-D suspect voting in OU. They have similar roles as excellent Hazard setters but both bring other good things to the table. Deoxys also had amazing defenses and Magic Coat to ensure that Hazards were always set while Froslass has great speed, Taunt and Destiny Bond while also being a Spinblocker. I think we should all be considering the impact of how these extra things that Froslass can bring to the table have on the UU metagame. The reason for this being that and excellent Hazard setter will likely emerge from the Suspect Testing just as Custap Skarm and Forre became common during the OU Suspect Test. Now these things will never be banned because they do not possess the excellent defenses and support move pool that Deoxys-D did. So the question becomes, does the fact that Froslass is a Hazard setter that has excellent speed, Destiny Bond, Taunt and can Spinblock make it broken in UU?
My personal opinion would be yes. Being able to set Hazards in addition to having a very good chance at taking out an opposing Pokemon, and keeping Hazards off of your side while keeping them on the opposing side is very powerful. And although there are definitely ways to play around it there is really no great matchup against Froslass in UU that I can think of.
[/quote]Qwilfish however, cannot spinblock for itself, nor does it make for a great pokemon to use on Offensive teams, since it slows them down to much, and in all reality, just begs for Blastoise to switch into it. Froslass can lay down spikes, die, and you can proceed to nuke everything on your opponents team with the 5 offensive pokemon you are running behind your suicide lead Froslass, the pressure making it very difficult for spinners to switch in and actually get a turn to spin. If you aren't running offensive lass then this is irrelevant because you can just spinblock for yourself.
First of all, there's a difference between not being used and being extremely terrible. Froslass's bulky set should absolutely be included in this argument it's really really good. If tyranitar for some miraculous reason dropped to the bottom of UU, we wouldn't not suspect it just because nobody uses it. IIRC, Gothitelle was not even in top 25 usage when we suspected it.
Second of all, we are not saying that spinners are irrelevant because they suck. We're saying spinners are irrelevant because they don't stop Froslass. Bulkylass can spinblock for itself, and offensivelass either has 5 pokemon that keep pressure on spinners, thus not allowing them to spin, or sometimes it runs stuff like OTR Cofagrigus to make extra sure that its spikes stay down. That's why they're irrelevant. Not because they suck, but because Froslass ends up accomplishing what it was supposed to accomplish anyways.
I might be wrong here, but I'm pretty sure that deoxys-d was broken because of its dual screen set, not the suicide lead set.I was thinking about this and I thought that a good thing to compare it to was the Deoxys-D suspect voting in OU. They have similar roles as excellent Hazard setters but both bring other good things to the table. Deoxys also had amazing defenses and Magic Coat to ensure that Hazards were always set while Froslass has great speed, Taunt and Destiny Bond while also being a Spinblocker. I think we should all be considering the impact of how these extra things that Froslass can bring to the table have on the UU metagame. The reason for this being that and excellent Hazard setter will likely emerge from the Suspect Testing just as Custap Skarm and Forre became common during the OU Suspect Test. Now these things will never be banned because they do not possess the excellent defenses and support move pool that Deoxys-D did. So the question becomes, does the fact that Froslass is a Hazard setter that has excellent speed, Destiny Bond, Taunt and can Spinblock make it broken in UU?
My personal opinion would be yes. Being able to set Hazards in addition to having a very good chance at taking out an opposing Pokemon, and keeping Hazards off of your side while keeping them on the opposing side is very powerful. And although there are definitely ways to play around it there is really no great matchup against Froslass in UU that I can think of.
Agree for the most part here but it is is not the best spinblocker in the tier because it is mainly uses as a suicide lead. Spin blocking is always nice but Froslass usaully isn't spinblocking in any situations and its hazards can get spun away later after Frossy has died 2-5 turns in. It's a great lead but I just think that the spinblocking part is overrated and is used a lot in people who want frossy banned :(. That's all.I might be wrong here, but I'm pretty sure that deoxys-d was broken because of its dual screen set, not the suicide lead set.
Anyways, froslass is a tough one. Thanks to is amazing speed and ability to spinblock, froslass is by far the best spiker and arguably the best spinblocker in the tier. Thanks to taunt, hitmontop and blastoise cannot use foresight and spin against froslass like they can on other ghost. In fact, the only viable spinner who can beat froslass is the rare kabutops, who can use the combination of stone edge and aqua jet to keep frosslass in check. Unlike other ghost types, froslass has access to thunder wave, which cripples pokemon like mienshoa and raikou and further increases froslass's utility.
There's also the bulky utility set, which can setup spikes multiple times in the match. This set can not only function as a good lead, but is also decent mid game since it can set up spikes on pokemon like choice locked snorlax and mienshao, as well as offer taunt and destiny support.
However, froslass lacks one major move: Stealth rock. Unlike other leads like omastar and crustle, froslass is only limited to setting up spikes. While this is by no means bad, common pokemon such as zapdos, togekiss and crobat are immune to spikes. Furthermore, you still have to waste a slot for a SR user, a factor that does not apply to any other lead.
Another flaws is froslass's mediocre base stats. 70/70/70 defenses are absolutely atrocious in the metagame and froslass will struggle to take powerful neutral hits from pokemon such as raikou and crobat. Unlike other frail pokemon, froslass also has mediocre attacking stats, meaning that it will fail to deal significant damage to the opponent.
Like people have stated before, pokemon with multi hit moves, like cinccino, can shut froslass down before it does anything. A fast taunt user like weavile also shut froslass down due to froslass's lackluster special attack.
Overall, while froslass is a tough nut to crack, I think that it should not be banned due to its lackluster stats, relatively poor typing and most importantly, its lack of stealth rock.
I'm curious of your reason, since you didn't list one?There's kind of a reason that both defensive teams AND offensive teams are using Froslass right now.
And I'll give you a hint, it rhymes with "Snodgrass is token".
Give up?
Froslass is broken.
To say that this is an over exaggeration is an understatement. Just because a Pokemon is useful on many different kind of team archetypes, does NOT make it broken. I hate to use a Pokemon from another tier as an example, but look at Skarmory in OU, who's useful on pretty much every kind of team that you slap it on, because of its ability to almost always setup two layers of Spikes. Custap Skarm is good on Hyper Offense, Standard Skarm is good on balanced teams and stall teams. Of course, Skarmory is easy to punish, but when used right, Custap Skarmory will guarantee you 2-3 hazards. Froslass is very similar in a sense, because it pretty much guarantees two free layers. Problem is, Froslass just can't be slapped on any team like you say. Any Pokemon with Spikes is automatically considered useful because of the immense pressure it puts on teams, and no matter what kind of team your using, it's going to benefit from Spikes. Froslass is useful because of its high speed, Ghost-typing, and Spikes. Honestly though, this does not make it broken. Froslass is one of, if not, the most predictable Pokemon in the entire UU metagame. If you send out a supporting Pokemon into Froslass, more likely then not it's going to use Taunt to prevent you from setting up on it. Predicting that, you hit it hard with a coveraging move. Next, it's going to immediately setup Spikes, and then once you bring it down to its Focus Sash, it will Destiny Bond. If you're an experienced player, this shouldn't be a problem at all to play around. Almost all of the spinners with the exception of Claydol can beat Froslass in some way. Sure Froslass can spinblock, but it's too frail to rely on that ability. It's even worse when you have your own hazards on the field, because now Froslass has to take a massive amount of damage when it comes in just to spinblock, and even then, a smart player can predict that and just use an attacking move. Saying that Froslass is nonpunishable is just silly, because it can't take hits well at all, weak to all forms of hazards, and status really hurts its effectiveness. I'm beginning to see a pattern here. Everything that's fast and has access to Spikes, is considered broken. Why? Because no one wants to use a Rapid Spinner. Getting rid of Froslass wont really change the metagame as drastically as everyone is saying it would. It's ability to use Spikes extremely effectively is almost unmatched in UU, but unlike Deoxys-D was in OU, it's not immortal, it can't fuck over every rapid spinner in the tier, it's extremely predictable, weak to all forms of hazards, frail as fuck, and it IS punishable. It's a great boon to teams that depend on Spikes, but you really can't just slap Froslass on any kind of team to make your team better. It still requires team support, just like every other Spiker in the tier.I did give a reason, it is so good that all team archtypes are using it. If you are not using Froslass you are gimping yourself, because it's "too good to not use". It is completely nonpunishable and provides overwhelming support to the rest of your team. Spiking + Spinblocking + Ability to stop opponents set-up is "too good".
100% agreement on all of this except for the bit about Crobat. One of the things that does make Froslass good is that anything with Taunt that possibly could be faster than it (Azelf, Aerodactyl, Accelgor, Crobat) are all either weak to ice or incredibly frail, so they can't comfortably take 1 or 2.To say that this is an over exaggeration is an understatement. Just because a Pokemon is useful on many different kind of team archetypes, does NOT make it broken. I hate to use a Pokemon from another tier as an example, but look at Skarmory in OU, who's useful on pretty much every kind of team that you slap it on, because of its ability to almost always setup two layers of Spikes. Custap Skarm is good on Hyper Offense, Standard Skarm is good on balanced teams and stall teams. Of course, Skarmory is easy to punish, but when used right, Custap Skarmory will guarantee you 2-3 hazards. Froslass is very similar in a sense, because it pretty much guarantees two free layers. Problem is, Froslass just can't be slapped on any team like you say. Any Pokemon with Spikes is automatically considered useful because of the immense pressure it puts on teams, and no matter what kind of team your using, it's going to benefit from Spikes. Froslass is useful because of its high speed, Ghost-typing, and Spikes. Honestly though, this does not make it broken. Froslass is one of, if not, the most predictable Pokemon in the entire UU metagame. If you send out a supporting Pokemon into Froslass, more likely then not it's going to use Taunt to prevent you from setting up on it. Predicting that, you hit it hard with a coveraging move. Next, it's going to immediately setup Spikes, and then once you bring it down to its Focus Sash, it will Destiny Bond. If you're an experienced player, this shouldn't be a problem at all to play around. Almost all of the spinners with the exception of Claydol can beat Froslass in some way. Sure Froslass can spinblock, but it's too frail to rely on that ability. It's even worse when you have your own hazards on the field, because now Froslass has to take a massive amount of damage when it comes in just to spinblock, and even then, a smart player can predict that and just use an attacking move. Saying that Froslass is nonpunishable is just silly, because it can't take hits well at all, it's Taunt bait against the ever so common Crobat, weak to all forms of hazards, and status really hurts its effectiveness. I beginning to see a pattern here. Everything that's fast and has access to Spikes, is considered broken. Why? Because no one wants to use a Rapid Spinner. Getting rid of Froslass wont really change the metagame as drastically as everyone is saying it would. It's ability to use Spikes extremely effectively is almost unmatched in UU, but unlike Deoxys-D was in OU, it's not immortal, it can't fuck over every rapid spinner in the tier, it's extremely predictable, weak to all forms of hazards, frail as fuck, and it IS punishable.